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{
"id": 1395381,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1395381/?format=api",
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"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Maanzo",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": {
"id": 13589,
"legal_name": "Maanzo Daniel Kitonga",
"slug": "maanzo-daniel-kitonga"
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"content": "Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, while contributing to this important report---"
},
{
"id": 1395382,
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"content": "(The Clerk-at-the-Table consulted with Sen. Maanzo)"
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"id": 1395383,
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"text_counter": 239,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Maanzo",
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"id": 13589,
"legal_name": "Maanzo Daniel Kitonga",
"slug": "maanzo-daniel-kitonga"
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"content": "You mean 20 minutes? My contribution will take less than that. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is important to note that there is no country in the world without debt. Many families and individuals in the world have debts. The biggest issue is how to manage the debt. We have a good example of the US, a rich country, but heavily indebted. Israel did not have debts for a long time. If they had, they were managed. Business people in Israel do not have debts. However, every African country is heavily in debt. There is nothing wrong with borrowing, so long as the money goes to what it was borrowed for. Unfortunately, we have been borrowing money, but since we do not have proper structures, the country loses money through corruption. Corruption barons are courageous of stealing from public coffers borrowed money, which taxpayers are struggling to pay. They are brave enough to go through an The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1395384,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1395384/?format=api",
"text_counter": 240,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Maanzo",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": {
"id": 13589,
"legal_name": "Maanzo Daniel Kitonga",
"slug": "maanzo-daniel-kitonga"
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"content": "investigation. Even if they are taken to court, they are sure they will have their way and get away with it. That is where the challenge is. We need to slay the dragon of corruption in Kenya if we are to get anywhere with all the debts we have. When it comes to production, Kenya is an agricultural country. I saw a report on fake fertilizer. They said that the fertilizer being sold to farmers is filled with stones. That means farmers have lost money because of buying fake fertilizer. That means the produce will be poor, yet this is a country that is supposed to produce food. What is the aftermath? We will end up borrowing money to buy food to feed our people and the circle continues due to corruption. If you compare the cost of some of our mega projects here with those ones in Rwanda or Ethiopia, you will find that ours are exaggerated. Even if it is road construction, it amounts to official corruption. There is collusion from the contractor to the engineers. For a road that should be done using less money, like in countries such as Australia and other parts of the world, we pay 10 times for ours. If we begin dealing with corruption, we will save a lot. People collude when we have pending bills and delayed projects like the Thwake Dam. When you delay a project, it becomes more expensive. You end up paying double than what the project would have cost. Kenya loses and we have a huge debt that will take a lifetime to pay. There are many examples of countries losing because of corruption. Any country that has succeeded has fought corruption completely. That includes Singapore to all the Asian tigers such as China. They even have death sentence for corrupt people. There is total recovery of all stolen property. In our case, that is not the way. Most people are billionaires because they have stolen from the public. Until we strengthen the fight against corruption, it will be difficult to pay these debts, and the country will continue to be broken. Even if people were taxed 100 per cent and everything, we worked for went into taxes, we will still not pay our debts, so long as there is corruption. We will always have problems and face issues. Corruption results in political instability, which chases away our tourists. The other way we earn money is through tourism. Corruption also leads to increased pending bills in the counties. When we delay monies to the counties, we delay payments to suppliers, who go to court to get huge court awards with interest rates up to when they will be executed. There is the Government Proceedings Act, but sometimes, you cannot auction the Government. By the time these people are paid, money will have been lost due to mismanagement. There are a lot of pending bills in the counties. There are people who have worked for the counties and have done projects that you can see cost them money. Even if you value and assess them, you will find they are owed money. However, their payments are delayed. They go to court and are frustrated. They get court judgments, but no one is paid. Most of them end up dying, leaving their children poor and their companies collapsing, which does not help the country. It reduces payment of taxes and cycle continues. As a country, we must resolve to fight corruption. Morals and good values should be taught to young children in schools and higher learning institutions, so that we can change the configuration of most Kenyans, who believe that to become wealthy, you The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1395385,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1395385/?format=api",
"text_counter": 241,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Maanzo",
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"speaker": {
"id": 13589,
"legal_name": "Maanzo Daniel Kitonga",
"slug": "maanzo-daniel-kitonga"
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"content": "must take shortcuts and steal from the public. If we can manage corruption, we will manage our financial affairs and debts. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I look forward to a day when there will be zero corruption and Kenya will be a working nation, with everyone motivated to work. I hope we will have good farming practices, so that we can pay all our debts and become a developed nation. I thank you."
},
{
"id": 1395386,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1395386/?format=api",
"text_counter": 242,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Kathuri",
"speaker_title": "The Deputy Speaker",
"speaker": {
"id": 13590,
"legal_name": "Murungi Kathuri",
"slug": "murungi-kathuri"
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"content": " Sen. Kisang, proceed."
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"id": 1395387,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1395387/?format=api",
"text_counter": 243,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Kisang",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": {
"id": 2263,
"legal_name": "William Kipkemoi Kisang",
"slug": "william-kipkemoi-kisang"
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"content": "Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I also rise to support the Report by the Committee on Finance and Budget. As a country, we are in a crisis, especially because of the debt. If you read the Report, they stated that from December, 2022 to the current debt, the nominal ratio to Gross Domestic Product (GDP) is 70 per cent from 67 per cent because of the depreciation of the Kenya Shilling. That is a challenge to the economy, which makes it difficult for the country. As a country, we need to manage our debt. The public debt is over Kshs11 trillion. The National Treasury has indicated that they will reduce the nominal ratio from 70 per cent to 65 per cent in the next three to five years. The Committee has indicated that by the end of April this year, the National Treasury will provide us with the policy and way forward, so that we can monitor it closely. If you check, you will see that we have both local and external debts. One of the reasons our businesses are struggling is because the Government is borrowing internally. When the Government borrow internally, it means that our businesses do not have access to loans and at the same time, the banks are sure that the Government will not default. This means that they deny our businesses opportunity to borrow. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir the interest rates for the last six to eight months have been going up. When the borrowing rates goes up, it also becomes expensive for the business community to thrive and to create more opportunities for our youth."
},
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"id": 1395388,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1395388/?format=api",
"text_counter": 244,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Kisang",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": {
"id": 2263,
"legal_name": "William Kipkemoi Kisang",
"slug": "william-kipkemoi-kisang"
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"content": "As a country, we need to be disciplined. I remember around 1982 to 1993 up to 2002, the BRICS, African Union (AU) and United States denied the late former President Daniel arap Moi loans and donor funds. However, the country was doing well. People were able to go to school and put food on the table. We need to bite the bullet. Perhaps, we need to check because if the other day we had the Budget Policy Statement (BPS) in this House, and there is a deficit of over Kshs700 billion, maybe we need to save for a year or two. Can we live within our means without doing any development? Let us finish what we are currently doing, stop the borrowing and we will not die. We should not borrow to buy medicines or pay salaries. If we are unable to give salary increments because we are not raising enough resources, then so be it. We can stay for a year or two without salary increment and we should be able to explain to the country. On own source revenue, there are very many leakages. If Kenya Revenue Authority (KRA) and the National Treasury put measures in place, I believe we should even raise close to Kshs3 billion, basically by ensuring there are no leakages. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1395389,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1395389/?format=api",
"text_counter": 245,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Kisang",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": {
"id": 2263,
"legal_name": "William Kipkemoi Kisang",
"slug": "william-kipkemoi-kisang"
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"content": "There is a lot of corruption. If we are willing- it must start from the top to bottom, we should ensure that there are no leakages. If you as the father of the house, Senator or Governor, you see that there are things that you are doing that are not right, basically, it will go down stream. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we need to check these things and ensure there is governance and not giving unrealistic own source revenue where they create pending bills. This is one of the reasons why we are suffering at the counties. A county will say they will raise Kshs1 billion a billion and they raise Kshs3 million yet they will have budgeted for the Kshs1 billion. What happens to Kshs700 million works that have been committed? Therefore, it is important that we have a conversation as a country so that we come out of this mess that we are in. In countries like Singapore and Malaysia, corruption is not tolerated. Therefore, we need to be serious. Perhaps, we need to be dictators. I agree that in a country like China, if you are found to be corrupt, they say they will hang you. Perhaps, we need to do that for a year or two, so that we get back to our discipline. The reason why we were commenting the other time about road carnage is also because of the indiscipline. Instead of people going to driving schools properly and getting a license, we like shortcuts. You buy driving licenses or go and train on a bodaboda in a field within 30 minutes, then you are carrying five passengers, how will we grow if we are not adhering to some basic values as a country? Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I support this Report. I believe by the end of April, the National Treasury will give us the policies and measures on how they will bring down the remuneration from 70 per cent to 55 per cent; the internationally acceptable percentage. Otherwise, technically we are in the red. Thank you. I support."
},
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"id": 1395390,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1395390/?format=api",
"text_counter": 246,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Kathuri",
"speaker_title": "The Deputy Speaker",
"speaker": {
"id": 13590,
"legal_name": "Murungi Kathuri",
"slug": "murungi-kathuri"
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"content": " Thank you. Proceed, Sen. Tobiko."
}
]
}