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{
"id": 1402651,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1402651/?format=api",
"text_counter": 150,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Wakili Sigei",
"speaker_title": "The Temporary Speaker",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Sen. Seki, proceed."
},
{
"id": 1402652,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1402652/?format=api",
"text_counter": 151,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Seki",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": {
"id": 13598,
"legal_name": "Samuel Seki Kanar",
"slug": "samuel-seki-kanar"
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"content": "Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I also want to strongly support this amendment to the County Governments (Amendment) Bill (Senate Bills No.25 of 2023). I appreciate and thank Sen. Cherarkey for coming up with this amendment. I believe that this will be quite handy in terms of counties. Particularly on the section of county governments, the CECMs have been removed sometimes, for no reason by governors in the counties. I believe that there are several litigations in county governments through the removal of these CECMs. It has been a big pending issue because it comes in millions of money from counties. Counties are being charged by courts for violating this kind of law. More importantly, I want to support a number of our colleagues who have also supported this Bill. It is one of the areas that county governors have misused. I believe that this brings stability to our counties and gives CECMs reason to make their independent minds; to think, plan, and even work without any harassment from county governors. This goes to an extent where people have security of tenure. They will work without fear. So, I think this is very important, and I appreciate it. It is in the spirit of supporting devolution. The Senators have reasons to support county governments. This also brings the issue of performance to CECMs and the Chief Officers (Cos) even in the counties. This comes at the right time when we want to strengthen devolution. We have seen several impeachments, which are not necessary. So, I think this is the right time. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1402653,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1402653/?format=api",
"text_counter": 152,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Seki",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": {
"id": 13598,
"legal_name": "Samuel Seki Kanar",
"slug": "samuel-seki-kanar"
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"content": "It is a very clear amendment and we want to see how we can improve further the County Governments Act, particularly on seeing how even the County Secretary can be improved, so that he or she also has security of tenure. These governors should not just wake up one day and do their things in their offices. The Governor has been given more power to do whatever he wants to, and they do almost everything. They give orders from one corner to another without even considering anything, including laws that are there. With very loose laws like this one, somebody will get afraid to make up his mind and even his own decision. I, therefore, support this Bill and even this amendment and request that the other Members support it. Otherwise, it is quite in order to have a threshold which is quite higher than the one that we have of one-third, to go to two-thirds. I support."
},
{
"id": 1402654,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1402654/?format=api",
"text_counter": 153,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Wakili Sigei",
"speaker_title": "The Temporary Speaker",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Thank you, Sen. Seki. Sen. Kiio Wambua."
},
{
"id": 1402655,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1402655/?format=api",
"text_counter": 154,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Wambua",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": {
"id": 13199,
"legal_name": "Enoch Kiio Wambua",
"slug": "enoch-kiio-wambua"
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"content": "Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I rise to support the Bill sponsored by Sen. Cherarkey on the threshold for the removal of a Member of the Executive in the county government. As we support this Bill, it should also be noted, as I heard the Senate Majority Leader say, that this is patchwork. May be at some point, we may need to deal with it and come up with complete legislation, especially on the matter of the removal from office of both the Governors and CECs in the counties. I say this because the county assemblies must be supported to continue to exercise the provisions of Article 185 of the Constitution to oversee the executives. However, they should also respect the principle of separation of powers between themselves and the executives. I am of the view that the place where we should have started, and I saw it starting here, is that on the hearing of the first impeachment Motion on the Floor of the Senate, the Fourth Senate, I saw the Majority Whip give an undertaking to this House that it was going to be working very closely with the Committee on Devolution and Intergovernmental Relations, to come up with an impeachment Bill. There are Senators here who would have wanted to sponsor that Bill. However, because the Whip took the responsibility and said he was going to bring the Bill to the Floor, those other Senators who wanted to do it took a back seat. It is my humble request to the Majority Whip and the Committee on Devolution and Intergovernmental Relations to take this matter a little bit more seriously. I say they should take it a little bit more seriously because we have seen governors go through the anguish and pain of impeachment for reasons other than the provisions of the Constitution on the removal of governors. Some governors are out of office today for extra-constitutional reasons. Mr. Temporary Speaker, I would dare, because Sen. Cherarkey while contributing to this Bill, made reference to me and where I stood on the impeachment of Governor Sonko. I want to remind this House and country that to date I believe that there were no grounds for the removal of Governor Sonko from office. He was removed not because of the breach of the Constitution, but for other reasons. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1402656,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1402656/?format=api",
"text_counter": 155,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Wambua",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": {
"id": 13199,
"legal_name": "Enoch Kiio Wambua",
"slug": "enoch-kiio-wambua"
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"content": "What has happened is that now a very young leader, very robust, a man of the people, cannot hold public office because he was impeached for extra-constitutional reasons. If Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale for whatever reason, is unable to move fast, let the Committee on Devolution and Intergovernmental Relations take up this matter and bring a Bill, so that we debate and put in place proper requirements for impeachment of Governors. Some of the things that we are being treated to in this House are personal vendetta. If somebody disagrees with their political party, this House has no business fixing disputes between parties. That is not our problem. This House has no business fixing disputes between parties; that is not our problem. If somebody’s business has gone sour with some other people, it is not the business of this House to fix those relationships. We need a watertight impeachment law. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I would dare say that we, as a House and Parliament, have failed this country. We have failed this country because when you look at Article 181 of the Constitution - and if you allow me, for purposes of clarity - I would want to read a section of that provision. Article 181(2) of the Constitution reads as follows- “(2) Parliament shall enact legislation providing for the procedure of removal of a county governor on any of the grounds mentioned in clause (1).” Mr Temporary Speaker, we are required by the supreme law of the land to come up with an impeachment law; we have not done that. Now, what is going to happen is that the National Assembly will realize that we are dillydallying on this matter, and you will see them originate an impeachment law and just bring it here for concurrence. This will happen and yet, we are the people charged with the responsibility of protecting and defending devolution of the county governments. With those remarks, I want to support the enhancement of the threshold for the removal of County Executive Committee Members (CECMs). However, as I said, we must also be very careful to strike a balance, so that again we also do not curtail the operations of the county assemblies because it is their responsibility and their constitutional mandate to all county executives to account. Lastly, I have heard comments about the Bunge Tower. I have heard Sen. Cherarkey being praised for bringing up the matter yesterday. I have not heard people praising Sen. Chute and yet, he raised a Statement, which was also processed the day before yesterday, in the Committee on Roads, Housing and Urban Development in which I sit. If we cannot talk about problems and challenges in our own compound, then we lack the moral authority to speak about the challenges of people in other compounds. Truth be told, there is a problem with Bunge Tower. Forget the exquisite offices that Members have been allocated. Forget the fact that there are offices that I am told do not have windows; forget all that. There must be a problem. There must be a problem that a project which was initiated and costed at Kshs5 billion to last for 48 months, takes 14 years to complete, and Kshs9 billion goes down the drain. There is a problem. Whether we want to admit it or not, there is a problem. How do you deal with this problem? The way of dealing with this problem is to call out people The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1402657,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1402657/?format=api",
"text_counter": 156,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Wambua",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": {
"id": 13199,
"legal_name": "Enoch Kiio Wambua",
"slug": "enoch-kiio-wambua"
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"content": "because whatever has happened at Bunge Tower was done by human beings. There are people who took decisions. There are people who authorized payments. There are people who authorized variations. We need to call people out. We need to answer the question of accountability. How accountable are those people who were supposed to make decisions? How accountable are they to us and this country? The money that has been used to build Bunge Tower is public money. If somebody can tell us to keep quiet about BungeTower, then that person should tell us to keep quiet about the expenditure of money in counties. Money has come from the same kitty; it is public money. Some money has gone to the counties and some other money has gone to construct BungeTower. If we cannot question Bunge Tower, then we cannot question what is happening in our counties. I want to conclude by saying this, and people must listen very carefully. I am aware that there are members of staff who are being threatened with being sacked. In fact, I am told some of them have been interdicted. What is their biggest crime? Their biggest crime is allowing media to access Bunge Tower. This Bunge Tower is not heaven. Even in heaven, Jesus Christ died for us and we have straight access. There can never be justification for firing a member of staff who allows media to get into Bunge Tower and show Kenyans how their Kshs9 billion has been used. As a House, we must defend these members of staff because if we do not, then these members of staff will not be able to do anything. They will live in fear. With those very remarks, I support."
},
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"text_counter": 157,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Wakili Sigei",
"speaker_title": "The Temporary Speaker",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Sen. Thang’wa, you have the Floor."
},
{
"id": 1402659,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1402659/?format=api",
"text_counter": 158,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Thang’wa",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, for giving me the opportunity to also contribute to this very important amendment. However, from the onset, I could have stood on a point of information to inform my good friend, the Senator of Kitui, but I did not want to confuse his line of thinking about the Impeachment Bill. It is good to inform the House and inform him that this Bill is in the publication stage because the Committee on Justice, Legal Affairs and Human Rights looked at it. They wrote a report to the Speaker and the Speaker has sent it for publication. I believe we are moving in the right direction, and I am the Mover of that Bill. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I would like to thank the Senator of Nandi, Sen. Cherarkey, for coming up with this amendment. When I look at this amendment, it is saying almost the same thing as my Bill. This is because we believe how you got in should be the way you get out. There are no shortcuts. If you came in through the majority of all the members, you should go out through the majority of all the members; not the Members who are seated at that particular sitting, but Members of that County Assembly. Before I give my reasons on why this amendment almost goes in line with my proposal, which we will be discussing probably within the next few weeks, I would want this House to understand something. You can have a very competent CECM working for a very incompetent governor, but you can never have an incompetent CECM working under a competent governor. Why am I saying that? A competent governor will always The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1402660,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1402660/?format=api",
"text_counter": 159,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Thang’wa",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "know who is an incompetent CECM and the law gives the governor an express route of removing a CECM without anything, without discussion. The CECMs are at the mercy of governors and it should remain so because they are the carriers of the vision of governors. However, when you have a very competent CECM who is working for the people of a certain county and the governor is happy about it, politics comes in. That is why the impeachment comes because the governor does not want to lose a certain CECM, but the MCAs, because they believe this person is taking credit for everything that he is doing, would want to remove him from office and that is why the impeachment of CECs comes through. They would want to remove him from office, which is why the County Executive Committee Members (CECMs) impeachment has come through. They only do impeachments to punish the governor and remove somebody they think is working beyond themselves. This is why we should raise the threshold. As we raise the threshold, the County Government (State Officers' Removal from Office) Procedure Bill, which is the impeachment Bill, has given proper direction from the inception to the time the CECM is removed from office. Initially, a county assembly could have removed the CECM, and once they are removed, the Act at that particular time stated that the governor shall dismiss. The question was why a CECM should be removed, and then the governor is also ordered to remove them. The governor should be allowed an opportunity to remove or refuse to remove them. He or she can return a memorandum to the assembly, stating if the CECM was accused of stealing money, they have not signed any signatures. If the allegation is failure to report to work, the governor would state that they are accountable to them. The governor’s registers and schedules will be presented to show that the CECM always appeared. In the future, the impeachment Bill that will come after this amendment will provide a polite process that will allow everyone an opportunity to be heard. I would like to give you an example of Kiambu County, where I come from. I have worked as a Member of the County Assembly (MCA), a CECM, and I am now the Senator of the great County of Kiambu. Maybe, I am in the process of metamorphosing into something else. We have had four governors in Kiambu County. I am not insinuating anything. However, allow me to mention that the first governor, Gov. Kabogo, had properly empowered the CECM. They were respected and were working because he had allowed MCAs to oversee his government. When the second governor, Gov. Waititu came to office, the CECMs were mere flower girls. He realized they do not sign any documents and he instead empowered the chief officers. The third governor, Gov. Nyoro, I cannot tell because it is not known what happened in between. The current governor does not empower the CECMs; he only empowers the chief finance officer. We must protect the CECMs because they carry the governor's vision and are governed by people who sit in the cabinet. That is why I am giving this example, so that you understand that we should not let a Waziri in the county to be taken advantage of. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
}
]
}