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{
"id": 1415421,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1415421/?format=api",
"text_counter": 166,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Hon. David Ochieng’",
"speaker_title": "The Temporary Speaker",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Member for North Imenti."
},
{
"id": 1415422,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1415422/?format=api",
"text_counter": 167,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Hon. Rahim Dawood",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": {
"id": 2572,
"legal_name": "Abdul Rahim Dawood",
"slug": "abdul-rahim-dawood"
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"content": "(North Imenti, Independent); Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. Let me, first, congratulate Hon. Chepkong’a for bringing this Bill. This Bill is very timely in the sense that it will fix the relation problems between the two Houses of Parliament. I have gone further to make a legislative proposal to do away with the Senate completely, but I do not know if it will see the light of day. Our lawyers are working on it. We need to call a spade a spade. The Senate has its work to do. During the 11th Parliament, there was a time when the Departmental Committee on Finance and National Planning of the National Assembly called Kenya Airways. As soon as they were done with them, the Senate called them again and did what we had done as a committee of the National Assembly. There was a lot of repetition in what was being done. We need to have guidelines on what the National Assembly can handle and what the Senate can handle. I remember that during the last Parliament, I brought a Bill and it took about a year or two for the two Houses to decide on who between them would look at it. We need certainty on how to handle Bills. If there are Bills that do not need to be taken to the Senate, there should be a clear criterion that indicates that it is only the National Assembly which can deal with such a Bill. In my legislative proposal, which I have asked our legal personnel to draft, I have proposed to do away with governors and have mayors in the counties so that the bad blood amongst governors, Members of Parliament, senators and the Executive, together with the President, can be done away with. I hope my legislative proposal will be prepared and if we have to go for a referendum, I am willing to collect signatures for the referendum so that, at the end of the day, we will have a committee on devolution in the National Assembly. Therefore, we will not have to go to the Senate to fight over a few Bills. With those few remarks, I support."
},
{
"id": 1415423,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1415423/?format=api",
"text_counter": 168,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Hon. David Ochieng’",
"speaker_title": "The Temporary Speaker",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Hon. Moses Kirima."
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{
"id": 1415424,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1415424/?format=api",
"text_counter": 169,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Central Imenti, UDA",
"speaker_title": "Hon. Moses Kirima",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker, for giving me this opportunity to advance on the Bill by my colleague, Hon. Chepkong’a. As per the provisions of the Constitution, the purpose of the Senate was, per se, to take care of county governments but, as we stand today, other interested bodies have come up to try to give teeth to the Senate to deal with national matters other than concentrating on county governments’ issues. The Senate these days has assumed the responsibility of the National Assembly. It has gone ahead to form all the committees that have been formed in the National Assembly. The Senate has assumed the role of what is supposed to be done in the National Assembly. It has created work for itself. Interested powers have created collision between the two Houses so that they can have a chance to get in and divide them so that they do not have powers to supervise and oversee the requisite provisions or the requisite duties of the national Government. The major duty of the Senate is to check the welfare of the counties, especially the work of governors, or the relationship between governors and county assemblies. There is no way the National Assembly would impeach a governor or deputy governor and, at the same time, get the results or be informed of the method or mode of impeachment that is taking place in the Senate. In our Constitution, as it stands today, the Senate's major duty as pertains county governments is to specifically deal with issues that arise in the National Assembly only when it comes to monies that go to counties and not any other. The money that goes to the county governments and the county assemblies is the major duty that relates between the two The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor"
},
{
"id": 1415425,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1415425/?format=api",
"text_counter": 170,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Central Imenti, UDA",
"speaker_title": "Hon. Moses Kirima",
"speaker": null,
"content": "governments. The county governments these days have boundary disputes among themselves. They have issues that relate to the county governments and the county assemblies. But the Senate does not deal with those issues. This Constitution, as it is, has it that the Senate should not meet always as it does these days, but only when there are issues relating to county governments. I can confirm that they will be meeting even when there are no issues relating to county governments. Why does the Senate have the mandate to summon even the Cabinet Secretary for Defence whereas defence is a national matter? How come the Senate has the mandate to form a committee that deals with interior matters that are for the national Government alone? The Senate has created work for itself. It is duplicating the work in the two Houses. That costs so much of taxpayer’s money. That money is meant to be used for development other than paying allowances for the Senate’s traveling, sitting allowances and creating unnecessary committees. The Bill by my colleague, Hon. Samwel Chepkong’a, is timely and right. It has come at the right time. I support the Bill."
},
{
"id": 1415426,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1415426/?format=api",
"text_counter": 171,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Hon. David Ochieng’",
"speaker_title": "The Temporary Speaker",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Next is the Member for Seme Constituency."
},
{
"id": 1415427,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1415427/?format=api",
"text_counter": 172,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Seme, ODM",
"speaker_title": "Hon. (Dr) James Nyikal",
"speaker": null,
"content": " I rise to support this Bill in principle. This Bill is key to devolution. This Bill will support the whole area of devolution. Schedule 4 decides what counties do. If you look at it, the concept behind it is co-operation and not an adversarial arrangement. That is the only way it can work. The role of the national Government is to make policies and standards; and that of county governments is implementation. In reality, you cannot split the two. Even if you take what is almost completely devolved, like health; the policies and standards are still at the national level. Whatever counties are doing must relate to what is happening at the national level in terms of public policy and keeping standards. There is no way we can say that Schedule 4 clearly delimitates what each level of government will do. It is not practical. Therefore, this always calls upon the two Houses to co-operate because the standards and policies will eventually pass through this House. That is why when you look at Committees, they often find themselves almost clashing. There is a Health Committee in the Senate. There is a Departmental Committee on Health in the National Assembly. You wonder why because, when it comes to standards and policies, the Departmental Committee on Health in the National Assembly Committee must look at what is happening. When it comes to implementation, which is on the ground, to a large extent Level 5 hospitals downwards, the Senate is responsible. Sometimes, it is not that there is competition, but that what we do not have is a clear delimitation. It is not possible unless we agree and put it down. We will look at those details in this Bill. In my thinking, the issue of an Upper House and Lower House has been an adversarial point for no reason. The bicameral arrangement in Kenya is different from bicameral arrangements in other jurisdictions. The concept of an Upper House and a Lower House does not exist in our jurisdiction. What purely exists are roles. It was stated that the Senate takes care of the interests of the counties. The one area that has come out very well is the impeachment of governors. They have done a good job in this regard because they have stuck with that role and protected the counties to that extent. That is their role. Maybe, the only area where issues of an Upper House and Lower House may come in is the impeachment of a President. In that one, the National Assembly can initiate the impeachment of a President but it must pass through the Senate. That may bring about the relational aspect of Upper House and Lower House between the two Houses of Parliament. Otherwise, it does not exist. The courts have taken advantage of our adversarial relationship. They find it easy when we do not agree in advance on Bills that land in their chambers. As a Member has said, the Parliamentary Service Commission that belongs to both Houses pays. It is a bit ridiculous. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor"
},
{
"id": 1415428,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1415428/?format=api",
"text_counter": 173,
"type": "scene",
"speaker_name": "",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "(Loud consultations)"
},
{
"id": 1415429,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1415429/?format=api",
"text_counter": 174,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Seme, ODM",
"speaker_title": "Hon. (Dr) James Nyikal",
"speaker": null,
"content": "Hon. Temporary Speaker, there are many kamukunjis nowadays. They are interfering. Protect us from that. The courts have taken advantage of the adversarial relationship between the National Assembly and the Senate."
},
{
"id": 1415430,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1415430/?format=api",
"text_counter": 175,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Hon. David Ochieng’",
"speaker_title": "The Temporary Speaker",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Hon. Deputy Leader of the Majority Party and Hon. Samwel Chepkong’a, could you, please, consult in low tones so that we can hear the Hon. Member for Seme Constituency?"
}
]
}