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{
"id": 1462392,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1462392/?format=api",
"text_counter": 240,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Olekina",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": {
"id": 407,
"legal_name": "Ledama Olekina",
"slug": "ledama-olekina"
},
"content": "Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I wish the Senate Majority Leader was here when I am making my submissions. Let me begin by supporting this Bill. I think this is a very important Bill though I have a few concerns, which of course, I will raise. For the last 12 years which the CoG has been in place, it has been operating illegally. If you look at the current Statute, which is now currently being amended, it sets the Intergovernmental Relations Agency as the Secretariat of the CoG. I have a big problem with setting up this CoG in Statute if it does not respect the existing Act. I am concerned that in these new amendments, which are being proposed by the Senate Majority Leader, a CoG is being established and the funding for it is being sought from the sharable revenue. We sit in this House to divide money between county governments. When that money goes to the county governments, the Assemblies considers the budget for the Executive. Then now, we are introducing another monster in the room whereby, the Assembly will be sitting down and setting some money aside from their own budget to subscribe to this new CoG or Council of Assemblies Forum."
},
{
"id": 1462393,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1462393/?format=api",
"text_counter": 241,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Olekina",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": {
"id": 407,
"legal_name": "Ledama Olekina",
"slug": "ledama-olekina"
},
"content": "The executive in its budget will also set aside some money to set up a club of men and women to sit down and chat. This is shareable revenue; money that is supposed to go to support counties. When the framers of the Constitution set up the Intergovernmental Relations Agency, which was the Transitional Authority, they saw it fit to set up an independent body that could balance the relationship between the two arms of government; the national Government and the Council of Governors (COG). Madam Temporary Speaker, I have a problem with over-legislation. I have a problem with saying that because the COGs have been operating illegally, we put them in statutes and give them the leeway to decide how much to send to employ a CEO to run this council or to employ a secretariat with the money meant to build hospitals and schools and fund our children in scholarships and bursaries The neater way is to ensure that the current statute continues when it comes to the issue of the secretariat of the COGs. How do you tell us that you will set up a secretariat then we are to fund it and be accountable for it? There is a problem here. I strongly support the establishment of the County Assemblies Forum (CAF) but I believe that the Exchequer, which is currently funding this agency, should continue so that the agency can be independent. We currently have a serious problem with the relationship between governors and Members of County Assemblies (MCAs) because the assemblies are not semi- autonomous. They depend on the governor to give them money. If you go to most counties, they will tell you that the governor has not given them money. Why is that when this is a body to oversight the governor? Although I support this Bill, I persuade my colleague, the Senate Majority Leader to completely delete Section 20A, being proposed. I will be proposing to him to delete this new Section on funding of the council. Leave that role to be carried out by this Intergovernmental Relations Agency. You cannot say it is an Intergovernmental Relations Agency, yet you are coming in and telling me to fund it from your shareable revenue. Shareable revenue should be used as per the intended functions. Number two, I would also be persuading the Senate Majority Leader to delete Section 23(C) on funding of the forum. Let the money given to the Intergovernmental Relations Agency by the Exchequer run all those functions of that forum. Even if you have COGs, let the secretariat remain as per the current statute, to be the Intergovernmental Relations Agency. We need to differentiate between accountability and a club of men and women going there to sit and talk about what they have done. What I like about this is that Clause 4 of this amendment Bill, which is amending this Act, talks clearly of the following functions, which are very clear: Facilitate dispute resolution between the national Government and county government within the framework provided under this Act. I support that. You always need to have an arbiter. Now, tell me, how will you have an arbiter yet you have your secretariat? Your secretariat will come out to say we do not agree with the powers that have been given to this current agency. We want to be the ones to dictate to this agency what they should negotiate for us with this new COG being funded. This is wrong and I hope that my colleagues who will speak after me on this matter will agree with me that Section 20A is unnecessary."
},
{
"id": 1462394,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1462394/?format=api",
"text_counter": 242,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Olekina",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": {
"id": 407,
"legal_name": "Ledama Olekina",
"slug": "ledama-olekina"
},
"content": "Today’s Order Paper talks about reinventing the wheel and, amending the Division of Revenue Bill. Hypothetically, if we pass this Bill, rush it fast and it is assented into law, does that not mean that county governments will now have to redo their entire budgets again, and create a new budget line to be able to fund the COGs? Sen. Kajwang’ will tell you that for the last 10 years, we have been agonising over the legality of county governments funding the COG. Since they have been operating in an illegal framework throughout, the best thing to do is to have a completely independent body. We talk about corruption here every day. We talk about county governments being corrupt. I see that you have given this new council powers. I have seen it somewhere where it says, ‘summon anyone to appear before it’. Let us do away with the unnecessary creation of secretariats. We are just creating jobs for people and even when those jobs have been established, they only go to certain parts of this country as if we are visitors in this country. Madam Temporary Speaker, although I support these amendments, I will also be bringing amendments. I hope my colleagues will agree with me that we need to stop this waste. I will summarize by saying the following: One, we do not need a secretariat of the COGs, the secretariat of the Intergovernmental Relations Agency, which is currently by statute the secretariat of the COGs should remain so. We need to make it very clear so that people know. Two, we do not need to divert money meant for our people. The shareable revenue that we cry every day to be increased will be monies that these guys will be paying a subscription from. What convinces me that what I am saying should be adopted by this Senate is that Section 20(A)(1)(b) being introduced says such monies as may be lawfully granted or donated to the council. It does not say who is going to donate. One county government might say we have so much money, we will donate to the council because the other county government is poor. It also says this council shall determine bi-annually the amount to be paid by county government as subscription. That is wrong. I persuade my colleagues and hope that you pay attention to what I am saying. Let us do away with this new provision being introduced. It is not necessary and it is expensive. People are talking about austerity measures. There is nothing that will convince me that we practise what we preach if we reduce the expenses. The moment you set up the COG secretariat and put it under statute, depending on the powers of the CEO of that secretariat, the county government might one day be told to donate Kshs100 million every year, so that they can have big events where it is just talk shop. You cannot find something tangible."
},
{
"id": 1462395,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1462395/?format=api",
"text_counter": 243,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Veronica Maina",
"speaker_title": "The Temporary Speaker",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Proceed, Sen. Tobiko."
},
{
"id": 1462396,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1462396/?format=api",
"text_counter": 244,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Tobiko",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "Madam Temporary Speaker, I stand to support the Intergovernmental Relations (Amendment) Bill 2024. I have heard the concerns of the Senators who have contributed to this Bill. I have had a chance to interact with the Intergovernmental Relations Technical Committee (IGRTC), which is proposed to become the agency. We have also had a chance to listen to the Council of Governors (COG) and to the County Assemblies Forum (CAF)."
},
{
"id": 1462397,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1462397/?format=api",
"text_counter": 245,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Tobiko",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "I am personally convinced on the necessity of these various bodies. The Agency has been operating as the secretariat of the Summit. It has also been the one facilitating and coordinating the sectoral forums of the national county Governments. Additionally, it has also been coordinating meetings of the Intergovernmental Budget and Economic Council (IBEC) because the IGRTC was a successor of the Transitional Authority. This House knows very well that there are so many functions and accompanying resources that should but have not yet been devolved from the national Government to the county Governments. There must be this body to continue pushing, persuading and lobbying the national Government to let go the functions that are devolved. The functions according to Schedule Four of the Constitution, which should then be devolved to county governments, we know there has been a struggle. The Transitional Authority tried as much as it could but its time expired before it completed this work. The IGRTC came in and has done its bit but still there is so much that needs to be done. We have realized that the national Government will not let go of the functions or resources if it is not pushed. Sometimes it is almost coerced to let go of the devolved functions. Ideally, it should be as smooth as possible. The national Government should let go because devolved units are a creation of the Constitution of this republic. The reality is that they are not letting go and there must be a body that will continue to push and ensure that this is done. Sometimes the national Government has let go of functions without resources, almost in a way that they would want to see the devolved units fail. The agency exists of necessity and should be empowered by law with the necessary resource. As far as the CoG is concerned, it has created a forum of standardization amongst our counties, so that they can compare notes and assist each. Therefore, even as these units were created, it was never meant that they would be so independent and autonomous of each other, that they cannot learn from each other. The successes of Kakamega today would be good if Kajiado can get a chance to learn from Kakamega. It is the CoG that has been able to identify ---"
},
{
"id": 1462398,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1462398/?format=api",
"text_counter": 246,
"type": "scene",
"speaker_name": "",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "(Sen. M. Kajwang’ and Sen. Olekina consulted loudly)"
},
{
"id": 1462399,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1462399/?format=api",
"text_counter": 247,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Tobiko",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "Madam Temporary Speaker, do I stop and give them a chance to continue speaking?"
},
{
"id": 1462400,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1462400/?format=api",
"text_counter": 248,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Veronica Maina",
"speaker_title": "The Temporary Speaker",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Hon. Senator, continue with the debate. They will consult in low tones."
},
{
"id": 1462401,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1462401/?format=api",
"text_counter": 249,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Tobiko",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. We have seen the CoG pushing for resources to go to the county Governments. Unity is strength. When they operate together, they get the energy and courage to push further. Seemingly, in this country things are not just done normally. If things were done normally, then one would let go when one is told for example, that something belongs to Sen. Mungatana. However, if you must be pushed to release what belongs to Sen. Mungatana then there will be a body or someone to push you to let go."
}
]
}