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"id": 1494962,
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"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Kisang",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": {
"id": 2263,
"legal_name": "William Kipkemoi Kisang",
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"content": "Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to contribute and support this Motion that you have come up with. If you remember, I think after the Sixth Parliament, the National Assembly then was an arm of the Office of the President. I am told - as I was not there - that every Thursday, the MPs used to go and collect their allowances from the Office of the President. Basically, there was no independence of the National Assembly then. This is the same problem that our county assemblies are facing but this law is going to liberate them. They will be independent from the county executives. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I believe this is one of the reasons why there are conflicts between the executives, especially the governors, County Executive Committee Members (CECMs) of Finance and the county assemblies. Perhaps, this is because of the tactful delays of release of funds to the county assemblies, to curtail their oversight role. About three weeks ago, we were in Wajir with Sen. Abass and we met the Committee on Energy of Wajir County Assembly. One of the things they complained about was the release of resources by the county treasuries to help them to do proper public participation and oversight. This law is going to liberate and assist them to deliver on their mandate of legislation, oversight and representation. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1494963,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1494963/?format=api",
"text_counter": 89,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Kisang",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": {
"id": 2263,
"legal_name": "William Kipkemoi Kisang",
"slug": "william-kipkemoi-kisang"
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"content": "Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is also important to note that you were in the ‘Lower House’ together with Sen. Osotsi, Sen. Maanzo and I for close to 10 years. I believe you and Sen. Maanzo will look for a Member of the National Assembly to co-sponsor the Bill so that as soon as the Bill is passed in this House, you have someone who will champion it in the National Assembly. When you are in the National Assembly, you do not appreciate what the Senate does until you arrive here. It is important that we start engaging our colleagues. Let us look for someone who will champion the Bill in the National Assembly. We also urge our Members of the County Assemblies (MCAs) across the country to lobby by talking to their Members of National Assembly to support this Bill so that they are liberated. I believe the MCAs are now watching. We have told them that as soon as the Bill leaves the Senate, they should talk to their Members of the National Assembly so that they all support the Bill unanimously. If there are any amendments, let them enrich the Bill and not water it down. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, as my colleague, Sen. Osotsi, has said, there are challenges at the Controller of Budget (CoB). Sometimes when the CoB approves money to be sent to the counties or payments to be done at the counties, there are diversions of resources and money is taken elsewhere. That is why you see accrued pending bills across all our counties. There are business people who have died and others in depression or hospital because the counties are not paying them. It is important that we ensure the CoB puts in a proper system. This will ensure that if resources are approved on an item, the county treasury will not be able to divert and pay others. Sometimes, they overstate their own source revenue at the counties and advertise many tenders. Instead of having pending bills on their own source of revenue projects, they decide to divert funds and pay their friends using their sharable revenue. It is important that the CoB put in place a watertight system and liaise with the National Treasury on the Integrated Financial Management Information System (IFMIS) so that anything that has already been approved in IFMIS is not diverted. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, Clause 109C states that all receipts, savings and accruals to and the balance of the County Assembly Fund at the end of each financial year shall be retained in the County Assembly Fund and applied in accordance with the Constitution and the Act. We are going on accrual accounting. It means, come 30th June every financial year, if there is still money in the account, the money is rolled over to the next financial year. The county assemblies will have to re-budget the resources that have remained as a balance in the accounts so that they do not have to send money to the County Revenue Fund (CRF). The other very important thing in this Bill is the need to open the County Assembly Fund account at the Central Bank of Kenya (CBK). In the recent past, the county executives have opened several accounts in commercial banks. The Public Finance Management Act is very clear that all county accounts must be opened at the CBK. It is also good to remind them by putting it in law. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this is a very progressive law that will liberate our MCAs. They will now will be able to do their work properly without going to beg at the The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1494964,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1494964/?format=api",
"text_counter": 90,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Kisang",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": {
"id": 2263,
"legal_name": "William Kipkemoi Kisang",
"slug": "william-kipkemoi-kisang"
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"content": "governor's office. I hope this will also reduce the impeachment of the governors because everybody will be independent and do their own jobs because that has been a source of conflict. I thank you. I support the Bill."
},
{
"id": 1494965,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1494965/?format=api",
"text_counter": 91,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Kathuri",
"speaker_title": "The Deputy Speaker",
"speaker": {
"id": 13590,
"legal_name": "Murungi Kathuri",
"slug": "murungi-kathuri"
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"content": " Thank you. Sen. Orwoba Magoma Gloria, proceed."
},
{
"id": 1494966,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1494966/?format=api",
"text_counter": 92,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Orwoba",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. First, I congratulate you for being the sponsor of this Bill, because it is also in line with the spirit of the Kenya Kwanza Government. Do you remember in our manifesto to deliver to the people, we were pushing for financial independence of institutions like the National Police Service (NPS) and the Judiciary? In the same spirit, when I read through this Bill, I can see that we are also pushing for the financial independence of the county assemblies, which is the independence of devolved functions. I do not want to belabor the point that you have MCAs who are supposed to oversight the county government, but the county government is running their payroll. So, there is always a fear of being victimized and being at the beck and call of the county government. That is the first win for the MCAs that they can at least do their jobs knowing that they still have a salary and are not going to be punished for playing their oversight role. That way, they are going to make sure that they keep the county governments accountable for the funds that they have. It is in that same spirit that the Kenya Kwanza Government was talking about separation of powers of these institutions in the first month we took office. What we are legislating is very important. I remember there was a time we had a Chief Justice who had to beg for finances that were being controlled at the Executive in order for the judicial services to be independent. That is the exact situation with MCAs. They have to beg governors and County Executive Committee Members (CECMs) for their salaries and allowances, and at the same time, they are required to tell the executive that they are misusing funds. It cannot work. You cannot have that independence when someone is holding you hostage with that financial card they have. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Judiciary Fund Act was passed in 2016, but it took so long to operationalise. It is the President, His Excellency Dr. William Samoei Ruto, who ensured that that the Judiciary had financial independence to support the operational autonomy that they needed to have. In the same spirit, this Bill is suggesting that it is not fair for the MCAs to be held hostage by the governors. I want to speak about the Ward Fund as I contribute to this County Public Finance Laws (Amendment) Bill (Senate Bills No.39 of 2023). We always assume that it is only the National Assembly that requires the National Government-Constituencies Development Fund (NG-CDF) or the Senate that requires an oversight fund. However, the MCAs are at the grassroots and are the level of leadership that deals directly with the people. In order for us to test that devolution is working, we have to start from MCAs. In the same spirit, I hope that somebody from this House will come up with an amendment to ensure that we get the Ward Fund for the MCAs approved. It is one of the The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1494967,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1494967/?format=api",
"text_counter": 93,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Orwoba",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "ways that we will empower the leaders down there, that apart from their oversight role, they can also ensure that development gets down to the grassroots. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, having said that, I support this Bill. I remind this House that indeed, it is the Kenya Kwanza Government that has been pushing for this independence of institutions. I am glad and congratulate you for having brought an amendment Bill that is in line with what we are saying; that devolved institutions have to be given operational autonomy. That means that you cannot hold people hostage or institutions hostage by running their payroll or budgets and claim to be supporting operational autonomy. I support this Bill and hope that we get a fierce co-sponsor in the National Assembly. As Sen. Kisang has said, most of the time, we pass Bills even though they are not rejected in the National Assembly. They stall because you do not have someone who is passionate enough in the National Assembly to pass them. Sometimes, we pass Bills here, they go to the National Assembly, they have a different view, and maybe they drop it. Then, we go to the mediation committee, which takes forever. I hope that both Houses can see that this is a Bill that needs 100 per cent support from both Houses so that our county assemblies can be held accountable; and the Members of the County Assembly (MCAs) may perform their functions without fear and without having to bend over backwards to please the same people and institutions that they are oversighting. Thank you."
},
{
"id": 1494968,
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"text_counter": 94,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Kathuri",
"speaker_title": "The Deputy Speaker",
"speaker": {
"id": 13590,
"legal_name": "Murungi Kathuri",
"slug": "murungi-kathuri"
},
"content": " Sen. Okiya Omtatah, proceed."
},
{
"id": 1494969,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1494969/?format=api",
"text_counter": 95,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Okiya Omtatah",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, thank you for the opportunity to contribute to this important amendment. The County Public Finance Laws Amendment Bill of 2023, as summarised in the Memorandum of Objects and Reasons, is a Bill that need not have been there because this shows that when the National Assembly was enacting the Public Finance Management Act and other laws that govern county governments, it paid scant attention to the issues of how the county governments have to be operating. The county assembly is micromanaged by the governor, and as such, it becomes very difficult for the assembly to have a voice of its own. Because at the end of the day, it needs to go back to the governor for this or that much as the law says, a certain percentage should go this way. However, if the money leaves Nairobi when it has been put in the various funds, then the assemblies will have their autonomy. The Public Finance Management Act needs serious attention by this House. A lot of issues in that Act are against devolution. This particular House needs to pay attention to that Act and make sure that all amendments were made to that Act after 2013 because the Act was made when the National Assembly was the only Chamber of Parliament. After that, the Senate came into being and then mischief began playing its part. Many amendments were made without coming to this House, including amendments such as the one that allows proceeds of foreign loans to be kept in foreign accounts, contrary to Article 206 of the Constitution, were made. You have got something that is happening now whereby a lot of money is being stolen The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1494970,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1494970/?format=api",
"text_counter": 96,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Okiya Omtatah",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "through procurement, through what they call a specially permitted procurement procedure. The specially permitted procurement procedure that is being used to initiate a lot of procurements that are not proper was insured through a Finance Act of 2017, which never came to this House and is wreaking havoc. A lot of things like the Adanis and all these things have come around, if you look at it, as a result of the mischief that was done by the National Assembly alone after 2013 to the Public Finance Management Act. They introduced a lot of changes. So, this particular intervention that we are looking at, the Public Finance Management Act, to try and ferry out the issues that keep counties dysfunctional is important. I congratulate the Deputy Speaker for having the presence of mind to come up with this Bill so that we can begin the journey to ensure that we have got counties that, from design, are meant to work. When you look at this particular section of the Act, it is like, I come to your home, I am from a village, right deep in the village somewhere, I want to answer the call of nature, it is raining, and I ask you: How I can get an umbrella? You tell me that I do not have to go out and could answer the call of nature within the house. You have got a self-contained house. Then I utilise it. When I finish, I say that when I go to my village, I will set up a similar house and put a toilet in that house. However, to ensure that all the villagers know that I have a toilet in my house, I will put the toilet in the living room, which messes up the design. That toilet cannot be used and becomes dysfunctional. This is what we have here. We have a design problem in the counties. The design is faulty, and then you end up with things that cannot work. To me, this is an opening shot. We need to visit all the legislation that governs counties and ensure that we get the design right so that we can properly set up something that can function before we test it. What we have in the counties right now, in many cases, cannot function because the design is wrong. The design of having money leave Nairobi into the kitty of the governor, then from there the county is served, is not acceptable. We must get the design right. I really congratulate you on this because you fixed a problem here. You got the design right, and once the design is right, things will flow. When the design is wrong, however hard you try, you will never succeed. That is why we say the egg, the way it is designed, can lift a chicken with a curve, but the other side cannot lift the weight of a chicken. Let us get the design right and work on this Bill. I pray that the National Assembly will see the value we have seen in this Bill and make sure that we create two autonomous institutions at the county level, whereby the assembly is independent. If the executive branch is independent, then the question of oversight can become possible. Otherwise, it is like asking your children to oversight their father in his compound. They cannot. The governor remains the big man, the governor remains the boss, and he cannot be oversighted by these people. I really pray that we will find a way of getting it through the National Assembly. I want to support what Sen. Kisang said that we may need to identify a partner in the Assembly who can help us see this Bill come through. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1494971,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1494971/?format=api",
"text_counter": 97,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Okiya Omtatah",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "As I conclude, it is also important to note that primary oversight is a function of the county assembly. Primary oversight, whereby the county budget is held against the implementation of projects in the county, is really a function that MCAs should do because they live in those wards, they pass those budgets, they know what goes to their counties, and they should see if the money is being applied lawfully, using the budget as the marking scheme, and also whether the money is being used effectively. Right now, to wait until the point whereby you get an Auditor General's report to interrogate, sometimes it is too late. You find a lot of things are missing in that report, a lot of issues have been missed, and even if you are to intervene at that time, most of the time, the horse has already bolted, and closing the gate does not achieve much. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I congratulate you for coming up with this Bill. I support this Bill, and pray that this Bill sees the light of day, but going forward as a House, we need to revisit the Public Finance Management Act. It even takes away the power of our clerk. When there was an amendment by the National Assembly that created two heads for the Parliamentary Service Commission, it took away the power of the Clerk of this House as the Secretary of the Parliamentary Service Commission. He is basically a figurehead. The powers of the Chairman remain intact; the powers of the Clerk are taken away by being split into three centres. We need to revisit those kinds of things and make sure that the stature of this House is not undermined through legislation. Fidelity to the Constitution and whatever we do, we do it with the Constitution as our North Star. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, with those few remarks, I support the Bill. I thank you."
}
]
}