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"id": 1499792,
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"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Mungatana, MGH",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, for giving me the Floor. I want to really thank Sen. Cheruiyot, our Senate Majority Leader, for moving this Bill in a very eloquent way and expressing how important this Bill is. I am one of the older Members in this House. A part of my political journey, I served the Republic of Kenya as an elected Member of Garsen. Thereafter, I was out of office because I stood unsuccessfully twice for the position of Governor of Tana River County and later on, I came back to this House. The people of Tana River County brought me to the Senate. I can speak with authority about what it means to be in office and what it means to be out of office. I am not telling stories. I am telling you the truth from my personal experience. I was running a law firm which sustained me for 10 years and continues to do so to date. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, there are colleagues we served with in that Parliament and when they left, like the Majority Leader said, they could not find employment. What is provided for even in our scheme, as Senators and Members of Parliament, is if you have served for two terms consecutively. If you have not and you did only one term, you have a problem. If you have served but did not make much contribution or do not have another source of income, you have a problem. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, what I am talking about is real. We need to support Members of the County Assemblies (MCAs) who serve and finish their terms and are not re-elected by the people back to office. It is true that when you are out of office, you face the reality that you cannot be employed. You have to have your own self-employment or business. Many of the MCAs The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1499793,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1499793/?format=api",
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"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Mungatana, MGH",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "who finish their terms and are not re-elected back do not have businesses or professional training. They are not engineers, lawyers, or doctors. They do not have something to fall back to in terms of their sustainable income. It has been a problem. Back in Tana River County, when you meet the old MCAs and members of the former Tana River County Council, you feel bad because you want to help them but you can only do so much. This Bill is critical and it must be supported by the people of Kenya and by this Senate. I say this because of the people who have given service to this nation and taken their time. Some even left their careers to come and offer service to the people who elected them yet afterwards, they have difficulties in going back to their careers. It is practical and I keep going back to this; that after having served 10 years as an MP, you go back to your practice and you find your old clients have moved on because when you took up public office, you did not have time to give them all the attention they required. So, they have moved on to other practitioners of the law. If you are an engineer or a consultant in a certain field, say, economics, if you left the National Assembly, the Senate or the County Assembly and you go back, you will find your clients have left. It is like beginning afresh. You will find you are competing with much younger people who have gone into the field. There is need for us to plan ahead for our MCAs. There is need for us to give them dignity when they retire from active politics or when they lose their position as MCAs. For MPs, we have done something and many MCAs have asked this question, what about us? Therefore, it is a good law that we have brought before this House that people will now know that when they are in these positions, they will be saving some money through some deductions in their salaries. When they retire, that money will become available for them for purposes of their existence, even as they supplement from whatever other business they do. This is critical. I know of a particular retired councillor who had a home and was married. When the term ended, he stayed with his wife. Financial difficulties came and they separated because he could not manage his family affairs any more. He had to even sell the house that he had built to somebody else. This man started living at the mercy of brothers and sisters, who used at some point to look upon him as their leader. We need this kind of planning for our MCAs. We do not want them to be in the position that the former councillors have been subjected to. We do not want them to be in the same position like former MPs, what they used to be subjected to before we had our provident scheme. Serving the public is serving the public, whether you are an MCA, a Member of the National Assembly, a Senator, a governor, or a President. When you look at the law that we formulated for Presidents and former Presidents, you will see that a retired President continues to draw 75 per cent of the salary that he used to earn when in active service. Whichever way you look at it, that man or woman would be entitled to a decent life when they retire. When you come to MCAs, that has not been looked into at all. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1499794,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1499794/?format=api",
"text_counter": 251,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Mungatana, MGH",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "When you come to Members of the National Assembly and the Senate, the amounts are not comparable to what the presidents or former presidents are getting. So, since all these categories of public servants are doing the same work, of serving the public, it is good for them to have a decent retirement package. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, when you look at the formulation of this law, you would see that they have created the trustees who are supposed to manage all the 47 counties. The money is going to be in one place, and trustees are going to be chosen. Good qualifications have been given. However, in this country, we have had many problems when it comes to funds. Anything you see written a ‘fund’, such as the National Government Constituencies Development Fund (NG-CDF), Local Authorities Pensions Trust (LAPTRUST) Fund, and anything that is ending up with the word ‘fund’, has problems. There are problems because the structures of our laws seem to be a copy and paste. New ideas are not being put to create checks and balances. Even in Savings and Credit Cooperative Organizations (SACCOs), you will see the same problem. When you hear of a SACCO, unless, there is good management, there will be a problem. In fact, there are some people who, once a SACCO is established, will try to get into the management or into a cooperative so that they can misappropriate funds. They will try even to get into this so that they can misappropriate these funds from the Members of the County Assembly (MCAs). I would like to tell all the MCAs and the umbrella organizations for Members of the County Assembly who are listening to me, that, this law is available for you to study and look at. We would want to hear a lot from all the 47 counties when we go into public participation. For instance, on how do we tighten the bolts and nuts? How do we make it impossible for someone with ill intention from getting money from your fund? How do we manage this asset that we are creating? This is because all of you are going to be deducted and this money is going to be in one place. The temptation for the devil is going to be high because the money will be a lot. The truth of the matter is, if this law is not tightened, and is going to be like other laws, then we are going into a rough ride. You have seen many people complaining that they are not getting their pension on time, or my father or wife, or husband, who was a member of this Fund has passed away, and he has not gotten anything. I am therefore appealing to Members of the County Assemblies to really take time. If I were you listening to Sen. Mungatana today, I would quickly run to the umbrella organization and ask for a meeting that would authorize the hiring of lawyers to just look at how you can improve this law so that nobody is going to play around with this money or fund that you are creating. I think time has come. Perhaps, time is now, that, people like the administrator, who is the Chief Executive Officer (CEO) of this Fund, must also put a bond, property or some cash in an account that, if money goes missing, then this Fund will have a lien on the money that you have put as a bond. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, it is not an outrageous requirement. It happens. Most people who are living on rental properties, like we used to, pay a deposit. That deposit says, in the event that the house is in disrepair, I will access that money to put that house in order so that the next tenant who is taking over the responsibility of tenantship would The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1499795,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1499795/?format=api",
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"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Mungatana, MGH",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "be entering a house which does not have dents, the doors are broken, the toilet is leaking, and the taps are not working. So, we need to have serious Chief Executive Officers (CEOs), people who are going to be vetted, not just by the Ethics and Anti-Corruption Commission (EACC), not just a certificate of good conduct, but people who would even put their own property and are willing to put down a title deed that is going to stand as a lien . They are willing to deposit a cash bond in a bank, that, if money is misappropriated, that Fund can access the security bond immediately to recover the amount lost. That way, we will have people who are serious about the jobs they are given. If possible, serious jail terms should be discussed on these people who are taking responsibility, the administrator and the entire structure. I am urging the Members of the County Assemblies to take time, because there is a way that we can enrich this law. Let us not say, excellent, we now are creating a fund that will help us to survive when we get out of office, and then we leave it there. You will be the first person who would be crying in the streets if you go there and you find your money has been eaten and the person is still sitting there, there is no fund, or they deliberately misinvested. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, billions of shillings will be raised through this Fund. We need to have duty of care which must be exercised at a very high level. We do not get to hear that they have put all the money that they are collecting in some long-term investment hence when the money is required to start sorting out the people who need it, the retirees, they are told that there is no money to give to them. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, as I second this Bill, I would like to tell Members of the County Assemblies that we are passing this law for you. I know some of the 47 Speakers and MCAs are listening to me. We are passing this law because for many years, every time since I was elected here as a Member of the Senate, we have seen a lot of delegations from County Assemblies, people discussing the point that when we finish here, what happens to us? Now the law is with you. Do not sit there and the law is passed and it is not satisfactory, and then you are the first person to complain. I am asking that this law be improved so that it can encompass Information Technology (IT) in it, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, a lot of payments nowadays are done through M- Pesa and bank transfers. Many of the MCAs would be able to transact easily if these provisions are made inside here so that you do not have to come all the way from Tana River County to collect your pension in Nairobi. This Fund will be operationalized from Nairobi for all the 47 counties. So, you do not want a law that allows for you to travel, if you are from Garissa or Isiolo counties, all the way to Nairobi just to come and collect a few shillings. So, this law, I believe, if it is improved, will serve the purpose for which it was created. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, as I come to conclude my submissions, I want to state that when you look at the provisions which are at the end of this Bill that we are creating, these are called the saving and transition provision. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, it is proposing that Members and staff of county assemblies who are members of the Local Authorities Provident (LAP) Fund and the The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1499796,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1499796/?format=api",
"text_counter": 253,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Mungatana, MGH",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "LAP Trust Umbrella Retirement Fund shall be transitioned into the scheme within six months upon the commencement of this Act. Right now, we have left the National Hospital Insurance Fund (NHIF) and Kenya is transitioning to the Social Health Insurance Fund (SHIF) and the Social Health Authority (SHA). Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, there has been a lot of uncertainties because when we were writing the law, the savings and transition provisions were not clear. It is not enough to say that within six months, you will be automatic members of the other side. What happens to those contributions within that period of time? What happens to the people who are working in the other provident funds? Will they be absorbed? This whole part on savings and transition is only three clauses. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I am inviting, again, the eventual consumer of this law, the county assemblies and CAF to look at the proper transition clauses that can be put in here. If you are listening to me, it would be useful to have clarity on every issue surrounding the provident funds you are already serving in. For example, there is an obvious clause here, that the provident funds you are already serving in should produce statements within the six months. These statements should be transitioned and the automatic operationalization of your accounts should be transitioned. If new accounts have been created, what is the process? Can these accounts be linked to your phone number and how are we going there? It should be that detailed so that you do not get problems. Right now, we are hearing about the NHIF, the SHIF and SHA. We do not want this kind of untidiness when we are transitioning from existing provident funds to this new one which is going to accommodate everyone. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I second this Bill very strongly. I believe it is a way of helping the many Members of county assemblies who have served in this Republic and in Tana River County. This is so that when their term is over, they can live a decent life. I fully support this Bill. I urge every colleague who will stand here because we are the senior brothers in the devolution family; and because we are the ones who work with our brothers in the county assemblies, because we care and have seen what they have gone through, I urge that every Senator who will speak to this Bill will support it. I urge all of us to speak with one voice. If there is any divergent opinion, it should be to add to this Bill. I also pray that at the time of moving amendments, we should have close collaboration with CAF. They should invite their lawyers so that we can do a very thorough job. It should not be a law that is copy and paste. We should not just look at what other provident funds are doing and then copy paste because we do not want to apply our minds in it. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, with those remarks, I fully support this Bill and I beg to second. I thank you."
},
{
"id": 1499797,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1499797/?format=api",
"text_counter": 254,
"type": "scene",
"speaker_name": "",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "(Question proposed)"
},
{
"id": 1499798,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1499798/?format=api",
"text_counter": 255,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Wakili Sigei",
"speaker_title": "The Temporary Speaker",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Hon. Senators, I notice that we have Members ready to contribute to this Bill. It is open for debate. I will invite Sen. Beatrice Ogola Akinyi. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1499799,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1499799/?format=api",
"text_counter": 256,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Ogola",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I sincerely thank the Mover of the Bill, the Senate Majority Leader and Senator for Kericho County, Sen. Cheruiyot. Of all the Bills that he has moved, I think this one stands out for me. Probably because of the background that I carry into the Senate. Having worked at the County Government, having worked as a CECM for several years, and having worked closely with the County Assembly of Homa Bay, which represents all the Assemblies that we have in the 47 County Governments, I have first- hand experience with the lives and the livelihood of the Hon. MCAs. I served as a CECM and, of course, was overseen by my committees in the county assembly. I had an everyday working relationship with the Members of the MCAs. The county assemblies are real core stake of the devolution family. They perform the primary oversight of all the works and all the funds that are given to the county government. It is worth noting that as a Senate, we cannot struggle to give over Kshs385 billion to county governments. Then the Houses that oversight this money which are county assemblies, as stated, do not get concerned about their lives after they are through with their work. It is based on that that I rise to support the County Assemblies Pension Scheme Bill 2024. These are parliamentarians at the county level. They are the first-line legislators that are closer to our people in the counties. In the wards, they live daily with members of the public. They can sort out most of their problems. They can listen to all the challenges that our people have, ranging from social challenges to economic challenges that our people have. All of us, as representatives of the people, know most of the problems that the MCAs deal with. Above all, MCAs have their lives. They have families. They have children to look after and they have their children. Above that, in the African set-up, it looks like every other person becomes your child when you are a leader. They deal with the normal problems that other families deal with; ranging from school fees to so many commitments that we have in our communities to sickness, to deaths that are all over in our communities. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, just as the Bill states, this Bill is for the social security of the MCAs, from their savings made, from all the years they will have served as MCAs. So, we must get a Bill that addresses the management of this Fund. I support this because the Bill sets out rules and regulations and regulations for this scheme. This is important because these rules and regulations will protect the benefits of these members. Other benefits are run in county assemblies. I remember in the Homa Bay County Assembly where I come from, there was a hue and cry from some staff when one term was over. These members of staff were people who were working on contract for five years. They had been instructed about certain savings they were making and when the term ended, they knew some benefits were accrued to them. For a long time, when the term began, these members of staff of the Homa Bay County Assembly were chasing these benefits. It was a situation where one has planned The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1499800,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1499800/?format=api",
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"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Ogola",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "with some money. When the year begins, you know you are going to get some money, and this money is not forthcoming. I support this Bill because the rules and regulations are directly speltout and this iwill enhance the management of this Fund. As I have said the MCAs are closer to our people and so there is a need for some savings for them. The life span of a politician sometimes is never very clear. As the Mover of the Motion says, one time you are here, the next time you may not know the environment in which you will operate. Even as I stand here, I am a nominated Senator. I am looking forward to being elected in a post in the next election. However, what happens if that does not work out? It is based on those misgivings that we, as a Senate, that looks at the interest of the county, it would be important that we establish a pension scheme that will take care of any eventuality of all MCAs. We have worked with these Members and seen the lives that some of them are leading when they lose their seats after every five years. I can testify to you that having worked at the first term of devolution; when that term ended, I saw some MCAs who were leading very miserable lives. Some of them came around to the offices of the executive looking for work and looking support. I happen to have been lucky to serve in the second term as CECM too. We saw these MCAs move from one office to the other, looking for survival. That was and is expected because they have basic needs to meet. So, I congratulate the Senate Majority Leader for this wise move. That as Senators would be able to establish a scheme that will take care of our MCAs. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, in the past, I have seen some Members of the Senate become MCAs. As leaders, we need to have a vision on how a number of us are going to survive when out of work. The other reason I support this Bill is that the salaries of the MCAs are already very low against the expectations that are laid out for them. We have mentioned here that a review was done by the Salaries and Remuneration Commission (SRC), which placed the speakers of county assemblies at a higher level than the MCAs. Of course, that is laudable. However, the speaker has no mandate with the public. It is the MCAs that solve the daily issues of our people on the ground at the wards level. The MCAs have low benefits and salaries. Their car and mortgage is already low. We must ensure that a saving is inculcated in the county assemblies, where they would be able to save some money that will cushion them when they leave or retire from their county assemblies or when they lose their seats. I also have a reason to support this Bill because it spells out the establishment of a board of trustees. The Bill is so elaborate on who will form the members of the board of trustees. However, whoever becomes a member of that Board may not matter so much because they will be taking care of the interests of the county assembly. I want to stress on the fact that this board must be guided by what is spelled out in Chapter Six of the Constitution of this Republic, which talks about leadership, integrity, honesty, accountability and the values that are enshrined in our Constitution. Why would The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1499801,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1499801/?format=api",
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"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Ogola",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "this be important? There are values that are expected from us as speltout in chapter six of the Constitution. The board of trustees will be dealing with monies that the MCAs shall have voluntarily saved over the years. It is very painful that an officer will have saved money from their salary, but someone mismanages it and finally it does not benefit the MCAs. There have been similar practices in other professions. I am a teacher by profession. I remember my father, who was also a teacher, saved money in a pension scheme for the teachers of the then greater Southern Nyanza. I remember an investment was made to build a very expensive house in Homa Bay County called Sonyaco Plaza. However, at some point, because of mismanagement, teachers were suffering. Their children were dropping out of school and yet they had saved for this pension scheme. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I would like the issue of integrity to be emphasised. Finally, access to their contributions when they retire from the county assemblies must be made easier. Then, the reason for their saving and value for money is met by the families. Lastly, I want to caution that whoever will be managing these funds should exercise prudent management. The board of trustees should not be too ambitious and overinvest in some of these funds because, in the end, that has also hurt other schemes. I support this Bill. Once it is passed, may the MCAs invest more in this scheme. By doing so, they will be investing in their future and that of their children."
}
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}