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{
"id": 1525032,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1525032/?format=api",
"text_counter": 969,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Hon. David Ochieng’",
"speaker_title": "The Temporary Speaker",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Thank you. Let us have the Member for Kilifi North."
},
{
"id": 1525033,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1525033/?format=api",
"text_counter": 970,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Kilifi North, UDA",
"speaker_title": "Hon. Owen Baya",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Speaker, for giving me an opportunity to contribute to the Medium-Term Debt Management Strategy Paper. It is high time that this country implemented the TSA strategy. That way, we will ensure that Government money remains Government money, and the Government will not have to pay interest on it. There are times when the Government borrows its own money. Government funds are scattered in different commercial banks, and the Government goes there asking for loans. The commercial banks accumulate Government money, and lends it to Government entities at commercial interest rates. That is how the Government incurs and accumulates public debt. We must, therefore, implement the TSA strategy to evade the situation we are currently in with commercial banks. Currently, the domestic debt is bigger than the external debt. Commercial banks are making hefty profits of up to Ksh14 billion annually. You ask yourself where these profits come from when Kenyans do not have money, given the little borrowing that happens in this country. It is actually the Government which gives commercial banks the hefty profits they declare annually. Therefore, the TSA strategy must be adopted and maintained. The other day, I listened to Hon. John Mbadi on Spice FM during the Situation Room programme discussing the Kenyan debt. He indicated that we are already indebted to the Eurobond until 2034 because of how we are managing our debt."
},
{
"id": 1525034,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1525034/?format=api",
"text_counter": 971,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Hon. David Ochieng’",
"speaker_title": "The Temporary Speaker",
"speaker": null,
"content": " It is 2036. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor."
},
{
"id": 1525035,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1525035/?format=api",
"text_counter": 972,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Kilifi North, UDA",
"speaker_title": "Hon. Owen Baya",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Yes, 2036. So, we dig a new hole to cover an existing hole. We then dig a bigger hole to cover an even deeper hole. We have many incomplete projects in this country that we cannot claim proprietorship of yet we have borrowed. According to a Citizen TV news broadcast aired yesterday, the country has borrowed Ksh6 billion. The project was halfway done; it was never completed. To complete it, we have to borrow again. So, the cost of the project increases by up to about 30 per cent because of the delay. We have to borrow so as to complete a project that should have been completed three years earlier. What does that mean? It means that we cannot manage our debt because of delay on projects or because of being ambitious on certain projects. Therefore, managing Kenya's debt will be a challenge. Many projects that were started all over the country during the previous regimes have been abandoned. They are too many. The Government is now looking for money to complete them. The final cost of a stalled project is usually different from the cost of the project when its execution started three to five years earlier. It means that the Government incurs more costs. A project that was initially supposed to be completed in one year at a cost of Ksh6 billion ends up costing Ksh12 billion three years later – double the initial cost. Therefore, we must start projects that we can complete. Otherwise, we will continue to borrow more to complete projects that have stalled. The third thing is that we borrow from commercial banks, like the Exim Bank and others, instead of taking multilateral or bilateral loans. We have been hit very hard by commercial loans. Multilateral and bilateral loans are cheaper. That is what we should be going for. However, people in Government have preferred to go for commercial loans despite the fact that they are very expensive. The longer the repayment period, the more the interest they accrue and they become very difficult to manage. I do not know when we will get hold of this problem. Lastly, in the previous regime, there were institutions that were used to borrow money. You find a parastatal with a Ksh100 million debt that was incurred on their behalf yet they do not know how and why the money was borrowed, and the money never got to them. How shall we manage such a situation? Therefore, as we consolidate all these things, as Parliament, we need to put our foot down and say that every coin that is borrowed must be sanctioned by this House. If this House starts sanctioning the loans we are going to borrow, we will get hold of our loan portfolios and manage the debt of this country. Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker."
},
{
"id": 1525036,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1525036/?format=api",
"text_counter": 973,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Hon. David Ochieng’",
"speaker_title": "The Temporary Speaker",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Well said. Hon. Irene Mayaka."
},
{
"id": 1525037,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1525037/?format=api",
"text_counter": 974,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Nominated, ODM",
"speaker_title": "Hon. Irene Mayaka",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. I also stand to support this Report. First of all, it is within the time that we need to discuss it. I have looked at the Strategy Paper that has been presented by the Committee, and some of the recommendations they have made. For example, the fact that we now want to automate the system and integrate it to Integrated Financial Management Information System (IFMIS) is something that is way beyond time. It should have happened sooner than later. All the same, it is still a very good idea. The only caution I want to throw in is that when implementing the integration policy, let us not immediately grandfather the current manual system until we are certain that the new one actually works. If we integrate the two systems but the product fails to work, we will be thrown back to square one. I have also seen another recommendation to the effect that as we implement the proposed changes, there must be close scrutiny and monitoring with Parliament getting quarterly reports. This is also very important because that is the only way we can tell whether the new strategy is working or not. We will know whether or not the new ratios that have been suggested – Increasing the domestic borrowing ratio to the external borrowing ratio – are actually working. I am saying this because one of the Committee’s recommendations is on having a close look at the proceeds of the infrastructure bond. As a House, we need to be The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor."
},
{
"id": 1525038,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1525038/?format=api",
"text_counter": 975,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Nominated, ODM",
"speaker_title": "Hon. Irene Mayaka",
"speaker": null,
"content": "furnished with reports on how our infrastructure bond is doing in the local market. We need to know the extent to which local investors are borrowing so that we know whether or not this is working. I have also seen a recommendation on introduction of alternative financial measures like Linked Bonds, Debt Swaps, Diaspora Bonds, and Environmental, Social and Governance (ESG) Bonds. That is also good. Even as we suggest this, we must find out whether this strategy has worked in other economies. If we are borrowing such practice, we must benchmark in countries where this strategy has succeeded. Usually, financial prudence and success are not unique to different environments. You can borrow ideas from where they have worked. There is a very common saying that goes “There is nothing wrong with copying a good cat.” It is very much in order. I want to speak about the monitoring aspect of the Ministry of the National Treasury and Economic Planning. It has also been suggested that as at 31st May 2025, there must be review to find out whether or not debt utilisation and debt procurement processes are working. This is good. However, we must be very careful not to overwhelm one department with too much work at the same time. These are very good measures but we must also be cognizant of their effects on daily operations of the involved institutions. Finally, having strict fiscal discipline within our systems and adopting appropriate consolidated measures is the only way of ensuring that this strategy works. Having said that, I beg to support this Report. Thank you."
},
{
"id": 1525039,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1525039/?format=api",
"text_counter": 976,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Hon. David Ochieng’",
"speaker_title": "The Temporary Speaker",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Next is the Member for Mbeere North."
},
{
"id": 1525040,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1525040/?format=api",
"text_counter": 977,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Mbeere North, DP",
"speaker_title": "Hon. Ruku GK",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. I rise to support the Report. For quite some time, public liability has not been managed well in this country, be it domestic or international liabilities. That is probably why we have been in serious problems of borrowing repeatedly until we have an accumulative debt of about Ksh11 trillion. The Committee forwarded promising recommendations to this House. We are looking at fiscal consolidation to ensure that we move our debt to GDP ratio from where we are, over 65 per cent. We want to be within the recommended percentage of present value terms that are at 55 per cent, with a plus or minus five per cent by 2028. For this to be achieved, the Ministry of National Treasury and Economic Planning, the Central Bank of Kenya (CBK), and the Controller of Budget, must do several things. The Report proposes automating debt service payment from the Consolidated Fund. That is one of the key recommendations. This will enable us to monitor any withdrawals made. There have been many rumours on social media and the mainstream media that a big amount of money has been withdrawn from the Consolidated Fund manually. We are not sure whether this money has been utilised properly. We are talking about large amounts of money. With such kind of recommendations, we will get rid of many speculations that may come as a result of the naysayers..."
},
{
"id": 1525041,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1525041/?format=api",
"text_counter": 978,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Hon. David Ochieng’",
"speaker_title": "The Temporary Speaker",
"speaker": null,
"content": " What is out of order, Hon. Oundo?"
}
]
}