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{
"id": 1552002,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1552002/?format=api",
"text_counter": 785,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Olekina",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": {
"id": 407,
"legal_name": "Ledama Olekina",
"slug": "ledama-olekina"
},
"content": "They are the ones who carry out due diligence and discoveries on a matter. They spend hours and hours trying to make sense of any brief that they are given. However, you will find that senior lawyers are the ones who end up getting paid Kshs100 million for a brief. As a former member of the Senate Public Accounts Committee and the Public Investments Account Committee, I came across all these legal bills and how much they are. I do not know whether we have room for that because of our Standing Orders. However, this is a matter that I feel that we have not done justice to the Petitioner. The recommendation ought to have been that we cap the amount of money that any county government can spend in outsourcing legal services. That is the first recommendation. These are some of my biggest pet peeves, and Sen. Sigei should listen to this, because if I was a Chairperson of that Committee and someone brings me such a recommendation, I would throw it back. How can you say, “the County Government should prioritize capacity building program for legal counsel, ensuring competitive remuneration and timely payment of allowances allocated to sufficient budgetary resources, and recruit adequate staff to enhance the performance and effectiveness of office of the County Attorney?” Madam Temporary Speaker, when you hire someone to be a county attorney, you go through a vigorous process of hiring a qualified lawyer, who is trained by the Kenya School of Law, who understand matters, if it is litigation, conveyancing and tax laws. They have gone through different processes, and they do continuous legal training. So, you cannot have that recommendation. A petitioner has come and said, please, Senate of Kenya, stop county governments from outsourcing legal services. Stop them. You cannot say, “build up the capacity.” In my opinion, here, the Senate Committee on Justice, Legal Affairs, and Human Rights (JLAHRC) failed. I do not know whether this Petition can be resubmitted, because we have not done justice to it. What are we going to be implementing here? After the Petition, it is sent to the implementing agencies. They are going to implement a capacity training for their legal practitioners. Have they turned into a law school? Certain recommendations should have some merit and meat into it. “County governments should strictly adhere to the legal framework governing the outsourcing of legal services and implementing strong oversight and accountability measures” Can you just read that again, Sen. Sigei, by yourself, even before you come here and submit it? Seriously, we have the Advocates Remuneration Act, which clearly sets how much should be paid for, for instance conveyancing or litigation. How then do you come up with a recommendation and say- “County governments should strictly adhere to legal framework governing the outsourcing of legal services”? They are already doing it. That is why they give the big cases. If a case is worth Kshs1 billion shillings, what we need to do to give justice to this Petition is to say, based on the brief, it should be capped to a maximum of this. If that lawyer cannot get it, get another lawyer. Out of the 20,000 lawyers that we have in Kenya, they are those ones who care about the resources that we have. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1552003,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1552003/?format=api",
"text_counter": 786,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Olekina",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": {
"id": 407,
"legal_name": "Ledama Olekina",
"slug": "ledama-olekina"
},
"content": "Madam Temporary Speaker, the amount of money we spend outsourcing for legal services in this country is ridiculous. We talk about government efficiency and making sure that we stop wastages of resources, but we are not doing it. Governors, left, right and centre, are using law firms to divert resources. It is that simple. You see a simple brief. We go through all these matters when we are looking at them. In my view, during the budget making process, county assemblies must be able to limit the amount of money that can be spent by the county government to outsource legal services. Spend more money with in-house counsel. I feel like this Petition has not been given the time that it required, and that it will not solve anything. In future, when a matter comes and it directly affects the members of the Committee who are dealing with it, they should just recuse themselves and say, please let us set up an ad hoc committee to deal with this matter. Lawyers did not give this matter any service. They did not. Madam Temporary Speaker, we look like jokes when we send out these recommendations. I do not agree with them at all. Perhaps, the Secretariat should advise us, because of the time limit of 60 days, whether there is a way for us to relook at this matter, because it will come back here. Let us set up an ad hoc committee to look at these matters diligently so that when we give out recommendations... These recommendations are too many. I will read another one, which I totally do not agree with- “County governments are advised to seek representation from external legal firms occasionally when handling complex and special legal services.” What is complex? You have gone to law school. You have been trained and graduated. You have been trained to be able to deal with complex, simple, and even cantankerous matters. So, it is not that there is a cabal, or a group of lawyers out there, who are trained to deal with complex matters. Seriously, do not make us look like we are a bunch of kangaroo House, that just goes with the flow. Madam Temporary Speaker, I am sorry that I am poking a lot of holes in these recommendations, but I just find them very shallow. Another recommendation says- “The Office of the Auditor-General should audit the County Government expenditures to identify the specific counties with exorbitant fees spent on legal services as at the time of adopting this report.” Give me a break. Madam Temporary Speaker, we already know. That report is already out. Why are we trying to write things for the sake of it? We already know the amount of legal fees for all 47 counties, starting from Nairobi City County. The Auditor-General has already done it. So, if the Auditor-General gets this, she will just say, okay, give me those reports, cut and paste, boom, boom, Senate, here is the report. What are we going to do? Then what? When the Petitioner submitted this Petition to this House, he expected us to say, county government, put a cap, of for instance, maximum Kshs50 million, a year. So, we know if we spend any money, it is probably about Kshs200 million. We need to relook at this. I am going to take about two more minutes to finish. The report says- The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1552004,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1552004/?format=api",
"text_counter": 787,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Olekina",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": {
"id": 407,
"legal_name": "Ledama Olekina",
"slug": "ledama-olekina"
},
"content": "“Noting that some counties like Nairobi and Kitui counties have established a County Pending Bills Review Committee to verify all bills owed by the County Government and ascertain their real value, the Committee recommends that the county emulates the practice as a step towards management of clearing of pending bills.” Madam Temporary Speaker, all 47 counties have established pending bills committees. We know that. It is not going to help this Petitioner. I am sorry to say this, but I feel like the Committee did not do a good job in this matter, and that, this Petition has not been given the time and diligence that it requires. Let me stop there because my dear brother, Sen. Sigei, is looking at me and saying, this is very bad. I rest my case. I do not support this recommendation. I thank you."
},
{
"id": 1552005,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1552005/?format=api",
"text_counter": 788,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Veronica Maina",
"speaker_title": "The Temporary Speaker",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Thank you, Sen. Ledama. Sen. Mungatana Danson Mbuya, please proceed."
},
{
"id": 1552006,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1552006/?format=api",
"text_counter": 789,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Mungatana, MGH",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker, for giving me the floor. First, I would like to commend Mr. Laban Omusundi. I have never met him in person, but I know that he has been raising extremely deep questions in Nakuru County. I commend him for bringing this issue that is affecting all the 47 counties, to the Senate. Madam Temporary Speaker, I am just going to make about three points on this. The first thing is that this report has exposed three counties that have not yet appointed county attorneys by the end of the audit of 2024. The three counties are Tana River, Lamu and Uasin Gishu Counties. Let me not speak about the other two, but speak about my county. According to Section 16 of the Office of the County Attorneys Act, 2020, it is the only Act that empowers a county to venture out and get legal services. According to this Act, you are supposed to get legal services with the permission of the county executive. If you look at Tana River County, it has been paying fees to lawyers, some of whom sit in this House. Neither do they have a county attorney's office nor consent from the county executive to pay. So, if the counties of Tana River, Uasin Gishu, and Lamu have paid any legal fees, the legal fee is recoverable. The highest- ranking person in a county is the governor. He is the Chief Executive Officer (CEO) of the county. These people must find the money to refund the counties. In the meantime, there should be a very strong warning that they cannot continue to contract external lawyers. Tana River County has no county attorney and it should not be able to contract outside lawyers. What they are doing is illegal and it must be called for that. It is not only illegal, it is also corrupt. The law requires that they have a county attorney and a county solicitor general. So, this is the first thing that has exposed the three counties. It is wrong that they continue to get legal services from external lawyers. This is wrong and the governors who are the CEOs in these counties must be accountable. The big question is, Mr. Laban Omusundi, in his petition, does not want legal services to be contracted out at all. He wants all the legal services from all the counties to be done with the legal expertise that is within the counties. I will not support that because it should not be lawyers because services that are The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1552007,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1552007/?format=api",
"text_counter": 790,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Mungatana, MGH",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "required within the counties include architectural services, road building contractors and others like water engineers and electrical engineers, who do not exist within the county's capacities. So, it should not be limited to lawyers. I think it should cut across if this petition were to succeed the way Mr. Laban wanted. Madam Temporary Speaker, how do we deal with excessive legal fees, such as the Kshs1.3 billion quoted in Nairobi, which the courts agreed to award to a single advocate? How do we address such issues? I believe the executives in counties facing problems with legal fees and audit queries have been complicit in allowing the charging of excessive legal fees. The solution is not to target all lawyers. Even the recommendations in this report acknowledge that, in some cases, complex legal matters may require the expertise of external lawyers. We should not debate that point, as it is a given. My colleague mentioned that, as an advocate or lawyer, one is trained to handle both simple and complex matters. However, the truth is that individuals who have dealt with land cases over an extended period often acquire specialized knowledge, experience and expertise in that area. Some of these cases can be very complex. Therefore, I believe it is important for the country to understand that there should be provisions for agreements on the legal fees that can be charged for any case. You do not have to adhere strictly to the remuneration order. You can always establish an agreement on legal fees. For instance, the advocate who charged Kshs1.3 billion for work that ended in a consent judgment, a consent reached between Nairobi County and the military. They could also have an agreement on the legal fees in the same manner they agreed on the consent to resolve and finalize the matter. The real question is, are the executives, the Council of Governors (COG) and the governors in this country being honest? Why can we not agree that for every case, there should be a proper legal fee agreement that does not surpass a certain percentage of the budget allocated for that particular year? A previous speaker made a very good point, that you cannot contract what you cannot manage. It is unreasonable to commit to paying Kshs1.3 billion to one law firm when only Kshs20 billion available for essential services such as water, housing, salaries and other needs in Nairobi County. You cannot claim that Kshs1.3 billion will go to a single lawyer. I believe contracts must be clear and aligned with the budgets available. Legal fees contracts must be agreeable to both the lawyers and the executive. If the instructions come from a county assembly, there should be a well-drafted legal fee agreement. Moreover, this principle should be standard across all professions, whether engineers, architects, land surveyors or any other services that require external contracting. People should not be allowed to submit their fee notes arbitrarily. There should be an agreement in place that reflects the funds allocated to the county by this Senate. Lawyers should not be permitted to present fee notes as they please, based solely on the remuneration order. It should not be acceptable for architects to simply present their fees based on the Architects Act, or for land surveyors to do the same. There must be a clear agreement in place. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1552008,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1552008/?format=api",
"text_counter": 791,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Mungatana, MGH",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "This is where the problem lies, county executives and governors have been complicit in allowing this lack of accountability. They consistently encourage huge fee notes because they receive kickbacks through the back door. That is why Laban Omusundi complained in this Petition that excessive fee notes are being made."
},
{
"id": 1552009,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1552009/?format=api",
"text_counter": 792,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Mungatana, MGH",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "Madam Temporary Speaker, it is unfair for the counties in this country that so much money is being paid to very few people. We are saying that it is wrong but the governors are in the middle of it because they agree with lawyers and architects. We sat here and agreed that to construct an entire governor’s residence, a figure was given and it is standard. Designs were drawn and we agreed all of us what was going to happen. Why should that not be done for law firms and land surveyors? Why can agreements not be done that are reflective of the capacities of the amounts of money available to our counties? I think that has gone on for too long and it should be stopped."
},
{
"id": 1552010,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1552010/?format=api",
"text_counter": 793,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Mungatana, MGH",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "To the extent that Laban Omusundi has raised this matter through this Petition, I support him. What we need to do as a Senate is to relook at the Office of the County Attorney Act, 2020, so that we bring amendments. It was good at the beginning because it set up these offices. We must require that they must follow procurement processes for us to get not just proper legal but all the services."
},
{
"id": 1552011,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1552011/?format=api",
"text_counter": 794,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Mungatana, MGH",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "We should look at that Act and make it compulsory in the Act that all agreements for external services must be filed with the County Attorney and approved by both the county executive and the county assembly because it is the county assembly that gives those monies out. After we have passed the equitable share and other monies to the counties, it is the county assemblies that approve."
}
]
}