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{
"id": 1557202,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1557202/?format=api",
"text_counter": 631,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Tharaka, UDA",
"speaker_title": "Hon. George Murugara",
"speaker": null,
"content": "The justification and rationale for the amendment are that we have to enhance the penalties applicable to unregistered persons who act as estate agents. That will curb the menace in this profession where quacks pose as estate agents with a view to making money when they are not qualified to do such work."
},
{
"id": 1557203,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1557203/?format=api",
"text_counter": 632,
"type": "scene",
"speaker_name": "",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "(Question of the amendment proposed)"
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"id": 1557204,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1557204/?format=api",
"text_counter": 633,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Hon. Martha Wangari",
"speaker_title": "The Temporary Chairlady",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Hon. Shakeel."
},
{
"id": 1557205,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1557205/?format=api",
"text_counter": 634,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Kisumu East, Independent",
"speaker_title": "Hon. Shakeel Shabbir",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. This omnibus proposal overlooks the fact that the Estate Agents Act has been used many times for money laundering and combating the financing of terrorism. It was heavily used in Mombasa to launder the proceeds of piracy, and you know what the effects were. As much as I agree that the penalties should be upgraded, I do not agree that the fines should not exceed Ksh5 million for a legal person, and Ksh1 million for a natural person. I propose that it should read, “Not less than Ksh5 million for a legal person and not less than Ksh1 million for a natural person.” Estate agents fueled illicit funding and money laundering at the Coast. They would take the proceeds of piracy and buy properties at ten times their value. If we make the penalties severe enough…"
},
{
"id": 1557206,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1557206/?format=api",
"text_counter": 635,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Kikuyu, UDA",
"speaker_title": "Hon. Kimani Ichung’wah",
"speaker": null,
"content": " On a point of information, Hon. Temporary Chairlady."
},
{
"id": 1557207,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1557207/?format=api",
"text_counter": 636,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Hon. Martha Wangari",
"speaker_title": "The Temporary Chairlady",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Leader of the Majority Party."
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"id": 1557208,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1557208/?format=api",
"text_counter": 637,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Kikuyu, UDA",
"speaker_title": "Hon. Kimani Ichung’wah",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Hon. Temporary Chairlady, while I agree with Hon. Shakeel, in legislation-making, we usually say, “Not more than a certain amount” in terms of fines and penalties. If we say, “Not less than Ksh1 million”, it means that you could even be fined a trillion shillings. You never know the judge or magistrate that one may appear before. Therefore, it is only right that we set an upper limit to prohibit exploitation. One may be subjected to other penalties in the statute if they are involved in money laundering. It is done that way as a deterrent. The Chairperson of the Committee was right in indicating it as “Not more than…” If we say, “Not less than…”, it will mean that the stated amount is the lower limit, and that provision can be misused. You can be fined Ksh100 million, Ksh200 million or even Ksh1 billion."
},
{
"id": 1557209,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1557209/?format=api",
"text_counter": 638,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Hon. Martha Wangari",
"speaker_title": "The Temporary Chairlady",
"speaker": null,
"content": " You have made your point. Hon. Shakeel, contribute for one minute."
},
{
"id": 1557210,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1557210/?format=api",
"text_counter": 639,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Kisumu East, Independent",
"speaker_title": "Hon. Shakeel Shabbir",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Thank you, Hon. Temporary Chairlady. As I said, we have been grey-listed by the Financial Action Task Force (FATF) and the international community. They will view it as a lack of commitment if we set the penalties at “Not exceeding Ksh5 million”. The culprits have been laundering hundreds of billions of shillings. For such persons, an amount of Ksh5 million is just a drop in the ocean. This Bill, which has been proposed by the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs, is trying to remove us from the grey list. We do not want small things like this to keep us on the grey list. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor."
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"id": 1557211,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1557211/?format=api",
"text_counter": 640,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Kisumu East, Independent",
"speaker_title": "Hon. Shakeel Shabbir",
"speaker": null,
"content": "I agree with the Leader of the Majority Party that we should not say, “Not less than…” We can also put a top limit of not less than Ksh5 million and not more than Ksh10 million. I think these are very important points not only for our country, but also for the international community, where even the African Parliamentarians Network Against Corruption (APNAC) represents Kenya. We hear all the criticisms that we are not doing the right thing. Uganda and Tanzania are doing it. We seem to be the ones who have been very lenient on this matter from a Pan-African perspective."
}
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