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{
"id": 1570302,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1570302/?format=api",
"text_counter": 193,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Sifuna",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "He says that in Makueni because of the nature of the topography and the unique circumstances of the county, they tried to convince national Government that they did not need CAIPS. They did not need single centres for aggregation of produce because of the diversity of produce in that county. It would be very expensive for some people or some of the farmers to transport products from one place to the centre. Mr. Speaker, Sir, he also gave us a very clear example that if you look at the amount of money increment for Makueni County in 2023, 2024, 2024, 2025, is about Kshs55 million only. However, in that same period, if you look at the fiscal responsibilities that have been put on the county because of the passage of laws that are here in the National Assembly and the Senate, for instance, on SHA and SHIF; this is a new levy that was introduced. The housing levy alone has added an additional burden to Makueni of Kshs55 million yet the annual increase in equitable revenue is Kshs52 million. So, it does not make any sense. So, we have said that year-on-year, we want to see marginal increase to cater for these things, including review of salaries and wages for the staff. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the final principle was that any shortfall in national or shareable revenue should be borne by the national Government. We have no problem. Whatever formula is adopted, the position that we have taken is that no county should lose, and we are willing to have that conversation with our colleagues. Now, there is some plea that has come from 11 of our colleagues who represent counties. They are calling small counties and we have a few questions for them. Number one, where did you pluck this Kshs6 billion figure from? What is the scientific basis for that figure? This is because although these conversations are complex, you owe a responsibility to explain to us where you got Kshs6 billion. Why not Kshs7 billion, Kshs5 billion or Kshs4 billion? Number two, if the argument is that most of this money goes to recurrent expenditure, we sit in the CPAC, and if you hear the stories in those counties, you will see that there is absolutely no justification to add the money. My view has always been that at the advent of devolution, people thought that counties existed to serve their tribes, that this was our county. It is the reason if you come from Bungoma and you go and apply for a job in Kakamega, they will tell you to go back to your county, even if you are a Bukusu born in Kakamega. Many people will not distinguish between a Kisii from Nyamira and one from Kisii County. However, they themselves at the local level know this one is from Nyamira and this one is from Kisii. Therefore, you cannot apply for jobs there because they will tell you, ‘your share is there, go and get yours there.’ That is the true situation. We had a county entity that came to CPAC and a governor has hired over 30 advisors. That county has only two constituencies and less than 10 MCAs, but he has hired for himself over 34 advisors. That is where the money for the county is going. The governor wants to go to every village and say, ‘I employed so-and-so's son, he is working in my county government.’ All of them, I think with the exception of Nairobi, have never even complied with the requirement of ethnic balance in their counties, which is"
},
{
"id": 1570303,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1570303/?format=api",
"text_counter": 194,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Sifuna",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1570304,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1570304/?format=api",
"text_counter": 195,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Sifuna",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "demonstrating my point that people think these counties exist to serve the dominant communities in those regions. The last question I want our colleagues from these counties to answer is if we are indeed amenable to meeting your request, so that we avoid those instances we have given. Where every single resource that goes to the county is still going to end up in personnel emoluments and governors adding themselves more advisors, can they agree that whatever amount is added in terms of what you have called affirmative, that we ring- fence it, whatever it is, for the development that you are claiming is going to us? We do not want a situation where you get that affirmative action fund, whatever it is you call it, it all goes to hiring more people on the ground. We were elected to represent our individual counties. The people of Nairobi County expect that I will put up a fight for them to be able to get the highest possible allocation that we can get. However, I am very clear in my mind even when we were doing the Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) with our counterparts from United Democratic Alliance (UDA), that because devolution is something that we hold dear as ODM, we have drawn a certain line in the sand. I am happy that the Senate improved on the proposal from us under that MOU for Kshs450 billion, we have passed as a House Kshs465 billion. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I do not know why people get upset when I speak about that MOU. I honestly do not understand because it is a reminder of the things that we have committed ourselves to. Every single day, we have opportunity to remind each other that this is what we agreed upon. In the morning, I was telling the Senator Majority Leader how I was very proud to hear him say on national television that some things that are happening do not make sense even to him when it came to the arrest of this young coder on Twitter for creating a website that we could harness feedback on the Finance Bill. Those things do not make sense to me. Why would you arrest such a person? For what? Even on the question of devolution, we have a responsibility to remind each other that these are the things that we have agreed upon. When I say I am keeping score or I have the marking scheme, that is the job of the Secretary General (SG) of the party. That is the responsibility I have been given. So that we cut down all this noise and we are able to meet everybody's need, let us make sure that we get Kshs450 billion for devolution. Just to remind my brother, the National Treasury Cabinet Secretary (CS), that this is what we agreed to and we have an expectation that he will deliver for devolution. I thank you and I support."
},
{
"id": 1570305,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1570305/?format=api",
"text_counter": 196,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Abdul Haji",
"speaker_title": "The Temporary Speaker",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Thank you, Senator. Sen. Mungatana, please proceed."
},
{
"id": 1570306,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1570306/?format=api",
"text_counter": 197,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Mungatana, MGH",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to debate this Motion. I support what the Chairman and the Committee has proposed before this House. I have been a beneficiary of the two informal meetings that we call kamukunjis . When this formula was proposed, I had the idea that I must do and say everything and anything so that Tana River can get more money. I tried to talk to colleagues here so"
},
{
"id": 1570307,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1570307/?format=api",
"text_counter": 198,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Mungatana, MGH",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1570308,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1570308/?format=api",
"text_counter": 199,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Mungatana, MGH",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "that they can add one more per cent landmass which we then changed and called geographical area so that it covers water. I also said that the poverty index should go from 12 to at least 13 per cent to add another 1 per cent. Nonetheless, when we sat with colleagues here and discussed, most of the colleagues were showing that 11 counties were going to lose money. We must speak as Senators of the Republic of Kenya. We must not speak as Senators just from our counties. With that in mind, we have agreed using the factor of 0.387, the baseline fact, no county will lose any money. This has taken care of what all of us were afraid of. So, if no county is losing money, what do we do with the rest of the other factors that we needed to factor in the formulation of the Fourth Basis formula? When we sat here this morning and in previous kamukunji, we said that whatever the Committee on Finance and Budget had proposed, no county was going to lose. However, if we stuck strictly to the formula on the poverty index, the geographical area and the population index, then there are 11 counties that will get very little, if any or no increment at all. As we sat here this afternoon, we convinced each other to allocate Kshs2 billion for those counties, so that they can have a reasonable increment. When we left here, the representative for the small counties was very happy. I left here knowing that even this afternoon, possibly we will finish this debate. In fact, we said that those who feel very strongly that they will come with a better simulation of the formula or an improvement of what we have, need to come with papers. That is what we agreed. They need to work with the Parliamentary Budget Office (PBO) so that figures can be created that will convince all of us. We agreed in the morning that we shall move this Motion this afternoon. We also agreed this morning, as a principle, that anybody with a different opinion to bring us the paperwork for us to accommodate them. The most significant breakthrough that we had with the small counties was when we said that we shall ring-fence Kshs2 billion that will be shared equally amongst the 11 counties that were getting very little increment. We left here very happy. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, it seems that the people have tested blood. If you get injured in the sea, for whatever reason and blood leaks out a bit, all the other carnivorous fishes come to finish you. I do not know what is happening. We have agreed on this formula. We yielded and said that we are ring-fencing Kshs2 billion. We said, “let us start with this and if there is anything else, we will reconsider.”"
},
{
"id": 1570309,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1570309/?format=api",
"text_counter": 200,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Mungatana, MGH",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "All of a sudden, we are seeing another attempt at increasing that amount to a higher level. It seems then that there are those who are playing with the cards that are open and there are those who are playing with the cards open and cards under that are hidden. This way, we shall not make progress. We have ring-fenced Kshs2 billion and we said small counties will get equal amount from that Kshs2 billion. My question is: what is the problem again? I have now heard my colleagues talk of adding Kshs4.7 billion. That means that the amount will be taken away from the original kick. So, the whole thing will now collapse. Colleagues, with a lot of respect, if we have agreed on something, let us carry it"
},
{
"id": 1570310,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1570310/?format=api",
"text_counter": 201,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Mungatana, MGH",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1570311,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1570311/?format=api",
"text_counter": 202,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Mungatana, MGH",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "to the logical conclusion. Let us not look at this matter in terms of what is my county getting. We agreed in the morning that we are going to speak as Kenyans and not according to our counties such as Tana River and other counties. We said that we will carry all of us and because of that spirit, we conceded. We agreed that whatever amount will be allocated, we should set aside Kshs2 billion to carry along the 11 counties. Right now, some colleagues are suggesting that we should go as high as Kshs4.7 billion. This is not the correct way to tackle these things because we would also like even a change of that formulation. We would like to look at it so that our own counties can benefit. However, we said that we should be patriotic and agreeable. The agreement was that what we agreed on informally is what we are going to put today in the House. In the morning, we said that those who did not attend the informal meeting will come and bring confusion. The confusion has actually come. In fact, Sen. (Dr.) Murango gave us a very good Kiswahili proverb that I cannot quite recall, which says that those who are not there may come in the--- Mheshimiwa, can you remind us that proverb? It was about those who come in later---"
}
]
}