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{
"id": 1613872,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1613872/?format=api",
"text_counter": 291,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Mumma",
"speaker_title": "The Temporary Speaker",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Order, Senators, can we listen, please. Sen. (Dr.) Murango, please, order!"
},
{
"id": 1613873,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1613873/?format=api",
"text_counter": 292,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Osotsi",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "Madam Temporary Speaker, we needed to get somewhere in the middle. That is why, we came up with a figure of Kshs4.5 billion. So, the figure of Kshs4.5 billion is like a stabilisation factor between the formula that was initially proposed by the CRA and the formula that was initially proposed by the Standing Committee on Finance and Budget. So, we were getting somewhere in the middle. If you talk about Kshs2 billion, then we will still be below what the CRA was proposing to give the small counties. We do not want to be in a situation where we will all say we would rather go for the CRA allocation and not the Committee. We want to trust our own Members who sit in the Committee on Budget and Finance, but can we have a balance? The balance that we are seeking is what Sen. Omogeni is proposing in this formula. That instead of the Standing Committee on Finance and Budget giving us an affirmative fund of Kshs2 billion, let them give us Kshs4.5 billion, so that we get somewhere in the middle, between what the Committee initially proposed and what the CRA had given us. That is the basis of the Kshs4.5 billion. You must note that in this formula, no county is losing. No single county is losing because of the baseline allocation of Kshs387 billion. That is what we are currently getting. So, no one is losing. The formula has three parts. It has a baseline ratio of Kshs387.425 billion, it has an affirmative aspect of Kshs4.5 billion and it has the third component, which shares out the difference. So, every county is gaining. What we are simply saying, as we affirm the counties which get more money to go up, let us also affirm the small counties; the 11 small counties, so that they also reach somewhere near where the big counties are. We are not asking for too much. If you do basic arithmetic based on this formula, yes, the 11 counties will each get an additional Kshs405 million, but in this formula, based on the Kshs405 million, the bigger counties, the remaining counties, will all get an average of Kshs279 million. So, if you do simple arithmetic from all these, you take Kshs405 million, which we are getting, minus Kshs279 million, which the rest are getting, then you see the difference is about Kshs220 million. Surely, if you are getting billions of monies, you mean you cannot sympathize with the small counties by just giving them an extra Kshs200 million? We are not asking for much. We are simply saying, and everyone here appreciates based on the debate that was there last time, that the smaller counties are really suffering. If it is based on that fact, then Kshs200 billion on top of what the others are getting as an extra on Kshs387 billion is not asking for too much. Colleagues, please think about us. As we say, this money is going to the people we represent not the Senators. Madam Temporary Speaker, the Constitution provides under Article 203 for affirmative action. It also talks about ensuring that there are no economic disparities within and among counties. If we go with the formulas that we have had before, in the first, second and third series, then we are not complying with the Constitution. I said here The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1613874,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1613874/?format=api",
"text_counter": 293,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Osotsi",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "when I was making my contribution, God forbid. If we pass this formula without taking care of Article 203(1) of the Constitution, with this country which has become litigious, tomorrow someone will go to court and the whole process will stop. We do not want to reach there. We are simply saying, that we have an element of affirmative action in this formula so that we do not open up risks for people going to court to challenge the formula that will come out of this process. We have also been challenged to demonstrate why we need more money. If you come from a small county, there is no factor that favours you. Population factor, sectoral factors like health, water and even poverty do not favour you. Incidentally, the smaller counties are also poor in many ways. For example, my own county, if you have a big family living on a quarter acre piece of land, that is already poverty. What kind of poverty are we looking at? One cannot farm or do anything else, but only consume. The smaller counties are suffering. Number two, let us also look at the inherited factors at the advent of devolution. These counties inherited, for example, staff establishment from the defunct local authorities, which had almost the same staff establishment across all the local authorities in the country. The staff that Kakamega inherited from the defunct local authority is almost the same number that Vihiga inherited and they just did a top-up. We are talking about many factors that this county has inherited and which they have to spend on. I also want to refer Members to other jurisdictions that do this kind of thing; that have strong devolution. I will pick an African example. Nigeria has been doing revenue sharing since 1954, even before they got independence. They have gone through experiences and now their formula has matured. They decided to adopt a concept that was going to ensure equality of states. In our case, equality of counties. They said the minimum share per state shall be 40 per cent of the total shareable money. They also said they will peg population, at 30 per cent. They will peg health, water, and other infrastructure at 10 per cent and 10 per cent on land. Why do we not adopt the same? If we want to ensure devolution works for everyone, let us adopt the same. So that instead of fighting for which county is big, which county is small, we agree on a significant percentage that is going to be shared equally. Yes, the Committee has tried to put in an equal share of 35 per cent. That 35 per cent is on only about Kshs13 billion. That is very little. How I thought they should put that 35 per cent on the bigger figure of Kshs405 billion so that will make sense to all the counties. Madam Temporary Speaker, on the issue of the Third-Generation Formula, some of the factors that have been put there are not based on sound data, including population. Population figures in Kenya have been challenged in court. Even the factor on health, which was in the third series, is also challengeable. That is why if you look at other jurisdictions, like I have given you Nigeria, the figures and factors they have picked are fewer and accurate. They talk about land, health, water and population, but give significance to equal share. We should do the same. I think the Commission on Revenue Allocation (CRA), which is tasked with giving us this formula, needs to do a lot more so that when they bring a formula here, we do not spend a lot of time arguing over it because it is based on solid facts, solid data and it is agreeable. Otherwise, if they do not do that, I am beginning The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1613875,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1613875/?format=api",
"text_counter": 294,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Osotsi",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "to think that CRA has no purpose in this country. It would even serve the purpose by just being a department in Parliament. This is because if you spend five years, and you come up with a formula here that creates controversy, a lot of argument, and you have done it for five years, and you exist, then your existence now is questionable. Why are you there? We want a formula that is going to uplift everyone. Madam Temporary Speaker, going back to the example I gave of Nigeria, they have adopted a concept of ensuring fairness and encouraging industry. That is encouraging the states or the counties to produce more. What is it in this formula that motivates the counties to produce more? We want to give a county money, more money, because they have idle land and we are fighting so hard on that. We must ensure that we also think about how we can develop a formula that encourages counties to do more. That is why I like the idea of fiscal effort, and fiscal responsibility. What effort are counties doing to generate own-source revenue? What effort are counties doing to ensure there is fiscal display, to ensure that there is fiscal effectiveness in the counties? That is where CRA should put more focus, so that they can develop data and benchmark for determining fiscal responsibility in the counties. I am aware that some counties receiving a lot of money do not even spend it within their counties; instead, they spend it in Nairobi. That is the truth. Funds are allocated, we see large buildings emerging in Nairobi, but there are no tangible developments on the ground. The only visible effort might be the issuance of bursaries. However, even those bursaries, since I sit in the Committee that oversees them, are often given to individuals who do not reside in the county. They originate from those counties, but live elsewhere. Another challenge small counties face is capital flight. For example, in my county, since we do not have sufficient infrastructure funding, we cannot build quality hospitals or provide adequate housing. As a result, most people working in the county reside in Kakamega or Kisumu, causing our money to flow back to larger counties. How can we support these counties to secure enough funds for development, generate more own-source revenue, and ultimately foster industrial growth in those counties? Madam Temporary Speaker, I agree with Sen. M. Kajwang’ that as we discuss this formula, we must also consider how to push for more money. In our division of revenue---"
},
{
"id": 1613876,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1613876/?format=api",
"text_counter": 295,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Mumma",
"speaker_title": "The Temporary Speaker",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Your time is up. I add you one minute to conclude."
},
{
"id": 1613877,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1613877/?format=api",
"text_counter": 296,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Osotsi",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "Our biggest battle is the Kshs465 billion allocation, as there is no justification why counties should not be added money. Counties are now burdened with the Housing Levy, the enhanced National Social Security Fund (NSSF) contributions, the County Aggregation Industrial Parks (CAIPs), stipends for Community Health Promoters (CHPs), the Doctors' Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA), and many other financial obligations. The national Government will do a favour by increasing this money to Kshs465 billion. As the Deputy Party Leader of the Orange Democratic Movement (ODM) party, I confirm that we have signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) with the United Democratic Alliance (UDA) party that we need Kshs450 billion. If they do not support The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1613878,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1613878/?format=api",
"text_counter": 297,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Osotsi",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "this, we will review the agreement because that is the most important aspect of the MOU. We cannot say we have signed an MOU---"
},
{
"id": 1613879,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1613879/?format=api",
"text_counter": 298,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Mumma",
"speaker_title": "The Temporary Speaker",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Your time is up. Sen. Mungatana, proceed."
},
{
"id": 1613880,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1613880/?format=api",
"text_counter": 299,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Mungatana, MGH",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to contribute. When this Motion was first introduced, and the Chairperson of the Finance and Budget Committee intended to move it, I was among the many Senators who persuaded him not to proceed. Instead, we advocated for a Kamkunji or informal negotiations. That idea was carried and we convened for the first round of negotiations. At that time, I was advocating for Tana River County, urging the Chair to adjust some indices, such as the poverty index and geographical landmass. However, my colleagues persuaded me that we should not alter the formula, as no county is losing funds, that all the counties are gaining marginally. Madam Temporary Speaker, another thing we agreed on in that Kamukunji was that all of us will speak as Senators of the Republic of Kenya. We were not going to be pulling on our side, we were going to try and find a middle ground. Unfortunately---"
},
{
"id": 1613881,
"url": "http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1613881/?format=api",
"text_counter": 300,
"type": "scene",
"speaker_name": "",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "(Loud consultations)"
}
]
}