Hon. Members, today being the Second Allotted Day for the Committee of Supply, I want us to strictly observe Question Time to last up to 3.30 p.m. COMPENSATION FOR CHILD KNOCKED DOWN BY DO'S VEHICLE IN BUTE
to ask the Minister of State for Administration and National Security:- (a) Is the Minister aware that on 26th January, 2006 at 4.35 p.m, a motor vehicle registration No.GK A921C belonging to the District Officer, Bute Division, knocked down and killed Master Osama Mohammed Abdullahi, aged four years, while playing near their house at Makutano Trading Centre in Bute Sub-district? (b) Under what circumstances was the driver of the motor vehicle transferred from his station immediately after the accident, instead of being arrested? (c) When will the family of the deceased child be compensated?
Is Dr. Ali not here? Dr. Ali is absent, therefore, that Question is dropped.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister of State for Immigration and Registration of Persons the following Question by Private Notice. (a) Is the Minister aware that there are many people from Ijara and other parts of North Eastern Province currently taking shelter in refugee camps in Dadaab? (b) Is he further aware that those people have been denied registration and issuance of identity cards and as a result cannot access voters' cards? (c) What measures will the Minister take to ensure that these people are issued with identity cards so as to participate in the on-going voter registration exercise?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, on behalf of the Minister of State for Immigration and Registration of Persons, I beg to reply. (a) I am aware that there are people from Ijara and other parts of North Eastern Province 2024 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES July 12, 2006 who were registered as Kenyan nationals as well as refugees. They are about 4,000 people. (b) I am not aware that those people have been denied registration and issuance of identity cards. Some of them held Kenyan identity cards before the influx of Somali refugees in 1992. However, when the Government undertook to register and issue alien identification cards to refugees, in Dadaab in 2004, it was discovered on finger printing applications that, some of them have already been finger printed and given identity cards as citizens of Kenya. These people can use their identity cards to vote if they go back to their respective constituencies. (c) For Kenyans who went to live in and around the camps and have attained the majority age, the Ministry will set up a committee comprising of officials from the National Registration Bureau, Refugees Department, the Provincial Administration as well as local leadership to screen and recommend the issuance of national identity cards if they qualify. This will be a rigorous exercise that requires the support of every stakeholder.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I thank the Vice-President and Minister for Home Affairs, and the Minister concerned for a very elaborate answer. However, allow me to inform the Vice-President and Minister for Home Affairs that children of refugees are not able to access identity cards when they complete their secondary school education. Could the exercise mentioned under part "c" of the answer be instituted immediately so that those people who are affected can vote in the coming General Elections?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I will take up that undertaking.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Question talks of some Kenyans who are living in refugee camps owing to drought, or famine. Could the Government ensure that those people are taken back to their homes and given food because they are living in refugee camps because of drought?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, those people are not detained in the refugee camps. As Kenyans, they are free to go back to their respective homes. When distribution of food is taking place, they should participate in the exercise just as other people who require food.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Vice-President and Minister for Home Affairs has really elaborated the efficiency of this Government in dealing with the issue. However, my concern is that a refugee is a person living across an international border. How can a Kenyan be a refugee in his own country?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Question was referring to Kenyans who were born there, and found themselves in a refugee camp.
If you care to read the Question carefully, it talks about people who are taking shelter in a refugee camp. They are not refugees. Last question, Mr. M.Y. Haji!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not have more questions. Thank you, very much.
Mr. M.Y. Haji is satisfied. Next Question, Mr. Rai.
asked the Minister for Education:- (a) Whether he is aware that Bombolulu Girls Secondary School was burned down July 12, 2006 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 2025 on 25th March, 1998; (b) whether he is also aware that a public inquiry was conducted by a 13-member commission which sat for 30 days; and, (c) why the Government has not released the findings to the public.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) I am aware that a fire tragedy occurred on the night of 24/25th March, 1998 in Bombolulu Girls Secondary School dormitory in which 26 children perished and several others were injured. (b) I am also aware that a commission of inquiry headed by Bishop Lawi Imathiu of the Methodist Church in Kenya was appointed to conduct a public inquiry into the circumstances surrounding the fire disaster. The Commission presented its findings to the former Head of State. Plans are underway to release the findings to the public.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, that is not an answer because this Question has been asked in the House for the third time, and we were told that the Ministry was awaiting the Report to lay it on the Table. Today, the Assistant Minister has said that arrangements are underway to lay the Report on the Table. How long does it take for that Report to be laid on the Table?
Mrs. Assistant Minister, consider the fact that the Commission concluded its work long time ago!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we have written to the Office of the President. I have a reply here which says that arrangements are underway to make the Report public. We will lay the Report on the Table as soon as we receive it. This letter is dated 11th July, 2006.
That was yesterday!
Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The Ministry of Education received the recommendations contained in the Report and we have implemented them. Some of those recommendations are to ensure that the principals of boarding schools have a house in the school compound. There are also many other recommendations which we have implemented. However, we are waiting for the Report from the Office of the President. I believe it will come.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the issue of commissions being set up as early as 1998 without making their Reports public--- There is the Advocates Complaints Commission which---
Which is completely different now!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am coming to my question.
Order, Mr. Mwancha! That is why I am here.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, could I be in order to---
Order, Mr. Mwancha! Could you sit down? I am here to guide the House! The Question talks about a presidential commission and you are now talking about the Advocates Complaints Commission. These are under different Acts of Parliament. Mr. Mwancha, you are now informed. You can ask your question now!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, is it in order for us to set up a commission to look into all the commissions which were formed? This is because they have not made their reports public.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am unable to answer that question because it does not concern my Ministry.
And you are quite right, Madam Assistant Minister! 2026 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES July 12, 2006 Mr. Rai, ask your last question!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, you have heard the Assistant Minister say that it is now eight years since the Commission was formed, and yet its Report has not been released. About 26 children perished in that inferno. What recommendations did that Commission make? Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, could the Assistant Minister undertake that within a certain period, she will be in a position to lay the Report on the Table? Eight years is a long period. We want to know the terms of reference of that Commission and the recommendations it made.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I agree that it has taken a long time to lay the Report on the Table. However, that is something that is completely out of my control. I undertake to revert back to the Office of the President and request it to forward the Report to us as soon as possible. I will lay that Report on the Table as soon as I receive it. In the meantime, I have the extract of the recommendations that were made by the Commission. We have implemented those recommendations. If the hon. Member is interested in seeing the recommendations, I am willing to lay them on the Table.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, could the Assistant Minister tell this House why this Question was not directed to the Office of the President if that was the case? It is not fair for her to come and give us this answer when she had sought three weeks' extension. We are dealing with members of the public and we should, at least, give some answers. I will peruse through the recommendations---
Mr. Rai, I think you are being unfair to the Assistant Minister! This is because she has given us evidence to the effect that she has tried to get the Office of the President that keeps the Report of that Commission. She has even a letter that was written by the Office of the President as late as yesterday. That letter confirms that they will surrender the report to her Ministry. Mr. Rai, what do you want us to do because the Assistant Minister cannot speak on behalf of the Office of the President?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, could you direct this Question to the Office of the President to answer it? We want this Report that was written eight years ago to be made public. The Office of the President wrote that letter yesterday.
That is all right! I oblige. I defer this Question and request the Clerks-at-the-Table to direct it to the Office of the President!
STALLING OF CONSTRUCTION WORKS ON ROADS E-220/E-1121 July 12, 2006 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 2027
asked the Minister for Roads and Public Works:- (a) whether he is aware that the construction project for Roads E-220 and E- 1121 which started in the year 2002 has stalled; (b) since the project stalled leaving Road E-1121 unmotorable, when the project will be completed; (c) what the total contract value of the project was and how much money has been paid to the contractor to date; and, (d) whether he has any plans to upgrade Road E-220 to bitumen standard.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) I am aware that the construction project for Katito-Awasi Road E220 and E1121 which started in February, 2005 is ongoing but has not stalled. (b) The project had been programmed to be completed by 15th August, 2006, but owing to delays and slow work progress, it will not be possible. However, the contractor has been instructed to submit a revised work programme which will indicate when the project will be completed. (c) The total contract sum is Kshs136,741,728. To date, the total amount that has been paid to the contractor is Kshs30,529,542.83. (d) There are no immediate plans to upgrade the road to bitumen standards.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, while I thank the Minister for giving me a very comprehensive answer, he will agree with me that the project was supposed to take 19 months but now, we have only one month to go. This means that 95 per cent of the time has been consumed while less than 25 per cent of the project has been done. At the same time, the Ministry has given the contractor an open-ended notice to give a work programme. The contractor can give a work programme to the effect that he will complete the road in the next two years. What has the Ministry done to pin-down the contractor to complete the project within the shortest time possible? The request here is for the contractor to submit a work programme which is not tied to any timescale.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the hon. Member is right to seek clarification on the work programme. Many hon. Members will realise that completing work within a laid down programme in the country, particularly where we have the indigenous contractors is a major problem. We are left with the alternative of cancelling the contracts but that is not the ideal way of going about the problem. This is because if we do that, we will "kill" all the indigenous contractors since none of them seems to be completing the work in time. As a Minister in charge of roads, I will talk to them and once they give me all types of excuses, I will tell them to give me their work programmes in order for me not to appear like I am forcing or threatening them. After that, we will discuss the matter. The hon. Member knows that this is a home-grown contract. I think he understands what I mean when I say "home-grown" contract. The amount of noise he will hear if I cancel that contract will be enormous.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, that is a very important road that links the Nyando District to the original South Nyanza District. Could the Minister consider upgrading that road to bitumen standards so that it can serve as a shortcut between Katito and Eldoret?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we are willing to upgrade many roads to bitumen standards. However, that is not our first priority. Sixty per cent of our gravelled roads are in very bad condition. So, we have to make those roads motorable first before we think of upgrading them to bitumen standards because this will consume a lot of money. So, let us improve all the roads first before we start upgrading them to bitumen standards. That is my approach to this matter. However, that does not mean that we are not considering upgrading some of those roads to bitumen standards. I know that this is a very important road. We will give it the first priority as and when we feel that the gravelled roads in Nyanza Province are motorable. In fact, some hon. Members are 2028 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES July 12, 2006 not able to reach certain areas because of bad roads.
asked the Minister for Roads and Public Works:- (a) whether he is aware that gravelling of Murukan-Dikirr-Chebunyo Road in Trans Mara/Bomet districts was stopped before the project was completed; (b) why the project stalled; and, (c) when works on the road will resume.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) I am not aware that gravelling of Murukan-Dikirr-Chebunyo Road was stopped. I would like to clarify that there was no programme to gravel the said road. Therefore, to say that gravelling of the road has stopped is news to me. (b) I would like to point out that the project did not stall because it had not been initiated in the first place. (c) Murukan-Dikirr-Chebunyo Road falls under the Trans Mara and Bomet districts' Roads Committees' (DRCs) work-plans for the 2006/2007 Financial Year. The Trans Mara DRC, under which the longest section of the road is located spent Kshs500,000 during the 2005/2006 Financial Year to spot-patch the damaged sections of the road. The said works were carried out on the Transmara section of the road. No works were carried out on the road section in Bomet District. However, the Bomet District Roads Committee has now set aside Kshs150,000 to repair the section during this financial year, 2006/2007. This month, my Ministry has agreed to spend Kshs900,000 to spot patch sections of the road which were damaged during the March, April and May rains. Currently, the road is in a form that we would call a good condition because our work has started there.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to thank the Minister, my former boss and mentor for that good answer. This road is very crucial to the people of Transmara. It is the road they use to transport milk to the factories for processing. They also use the road for transporting maize and other farm produce. It is, therefore, their lifeline. As the Minister has stated, it is true the road is in a good condition because of the dry weather. But as soon as the rains set in, the road will become impassable. What future plans does the Minister have for this road?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I agree with the hon. Member that this is an important road for the people of Transmara and parts of Bomet District. It is a marketing road for milk and maize. Therefore, it is being given special attention by the two District Roads Committees alongside my Ministry. We are now making available another sum of Kshs1.4 million to improve its condition so that it is passable even when we have heavy rains. We are not ignoring the importance of the road and we will look after it.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to confirm from the Minister whether the figure of Kshs1.4 million plus the Kshs900 million, which amounts to Kshs2.3 million has been set aside for the rehabilitation of this road. If that is the case, I would like to thank him very much.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not know the figures off-head, but I have given the hon. Member the figure. He should go and check on the ground to find out whether the job is being done. Mr. Bett should trust what I have said since he was my personal assistant for a long time and we worked together very well. July 12, 2006 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 2029
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
asked the Minister of State, Office of the President when the over 300 persons displaced from Miteitei during the land clashes will be resettled in their farms.
Hon. Members, I did mention this morning that the Ministers in the Office of the President had indicated that they would be out today and, therefore, all Questions were to be deferred. I will defer this Question to Tuesday since I deferred the others in the morning to tomorrow.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I am getting a raw deal in the House because as you know, this Question was deferred last week to yesterday. Yesterday, it was time barred. Today, it has been deferred to next week. I have more Questions to raise. When will they be answered?
I do sympathise with you, but you do realise that there is no Minister or Assistant Minister from the Office of the President in the Chamber. They did inform the Chair early enough that they would not be present in the House today. In fact, the next Question by Mr. Sirma is similarly deferred to Tuesday afternoon. There is nothing else we can do.
asked the Minister for Regional Development Authorities whether he could give a list of the projects funded and implemented by the Coast Development Authority (CDA) in Wundanyi Constituency since 2002.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) The Coast Development Authority has funded and implemented the following projects in Wundanyi Constituency since 2002: Promotion of Farmers Initiatives in Farmers Field Schools. This project which is located in Mwanda, Mghange and Wundanyi was started in 2001/2002 financial year at a cost of Kshs2.5 million; Integrated Reproductive Health in Farmers Field Schools Project. This project is located in Wundanyi and was started in 2005, aimed at promoting 2030 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES July 12, 2006 family health among other objectives; Walo Farmers Field School. This is a fish farming group project located at Mghange Dawida which was established in 2003 at a cost of Kshs43,550; Wundanyi Fish Pond Project. This is a fish pond project which commenced in 2005 at a cost of Kshs600,000; African Indigenous Vegetable Project. This project is located at Wesu and was started in 2005 at a cost of Kshs4.05 million; and, Small-Scale Mineral Prospecting Sensitization Programme. In 2005 the Authority, in partnership with the Geology Department, sensitised all stakeholders in the mining industry in Voi at a cost of Kshs600,000.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am surprised at the answer given by the Minister. I am the Member of Parliament for Wundanyi Constituency and I take my work very seriously. I am always at the grassroots and I know what is happening on the ground. I do not know of any fishing project in Mghange Dawida, neither do I know of any fish pond project in Wundanyi. I also have not seen this African Indigenous Vegetable project. The only project I know of at Wesu is 20 square metres on which Mchicha vegetable has been planted. How can this cost Kshs4 million? Could the Minister undertake to accompany me to Wundanyi as soon as possible to show me where these projects exist?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, all these projects are on the ground and if the hon. Member wishes us to go and see them together, we could plan and visit the area.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Hold on until I finish with the others.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, does the Minister feel that it is proper that for the last 15 years the Coast Development Authority has spent only Kshs100,000 in Ijara Constituency although it falls within the operation area of the Authority and yet it has spent Kshs8.1 million in Wundanyi in the last two and a half years? Is this really fair?
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
I think Mr. Mwandawiro, you know the rules of the House. The hon. Member has asked a question. I did promise that I would give you an opportunity to ask your question. So, you must wait until the Minister responds to the question and then you can ask yours. Please take it easy when you are rising on a point of order. I can hear you.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I agree with Mr. Y. Haji that Ijara Constituency was really under-funded. Generally the CDA was under-funded, except in certain areas like Wundanyi which was given over Kshs8 million. I know that Ijara Constituency was actually under-funded and we are doing something about it this financial year to improve the situation.
Now Mr. Mwandawiro, what is your point of order?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to assure the Minister that the Kshs8 million or so which he says was spent by the CDA in Wundanyi Constituency has actually not been utilised on the ground. None of those projects that he has mentioned can be identified on the ground. However, my question is---
Order! Is that the point of order that you were raising? That is a point of information which is not allowed during Question Time. You can now ask your question. You were just harassing the Chair for nothing!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, given that these authorities like the CDA are implementing projects which do not really exist on the ground, could the Minister consider disbanding these authorities and his Ministry too because it serves no purpose for the country?
July 12, 2006 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 2031
The Minister cannot disband his Ministry, for sure.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, despite the fact that the Coast Development Authority was under-funded it had undertaken a number of projects particularly in Mr. Mwandawiro's constituency. It has actually done a good job. For example, farmers have been trained and given a lot of capacity on fish farming, health, livestock keeping and so on. So, it is unfair for the hon. Member to say that these projects are non-existent. However, it is not my wish to have the CDA and other Regional Development Authorities disbanded. In fact, I will soon be asking the House to increase funding for this regional development authority.
My office received a message that Mr. Keter is not available. So, the Question is deferred to tomorrow afternoon. Mr. Keter had better be informed that if he does not show up tomorrow, this Question will be dropped.
asked the Minister for Planning and National Development:- (a) whether he is aware that the poverty level in Butula Constituency is 65 per cent; and, (b) what mechanisms are in place to reduce this level.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am aware that the poverty level for Butula Constituency as estimated by the Central Bureau of Statistics in October, 2004 stood at 65 per cent.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I have not received a written reply to the Question.
Mr. Serut, the hon. Member says that she has not received the written reply.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the written reply was sent last week from the Ministry through the Clerk of the National Assembly. If she has not received any, I am sorry for the inconvenience. I would request that a copy be given to her.
The issue of hon. Members complaining about not receiving answers is becoming too common. I am asking the Clerk to ensure that when answers have been received from Ministries, they are given to hon. Members immediately. Be that as it may, Prof. Mango, you may listen to what the Assistant Minister has to say.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, could the Question be deferred until I get a written response?
That is not a proper reason to defer the Question! If that was the case, we would have deferred so many Questions! 2032 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES July 12, 2006
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I think---
Order! Could you listen to the answer by the Assistant Minister and ask supplementary questions? Proceed, Mr. Assistant Minister!
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I beg to reply. (a) Yes, I am aware that the poverty level for Butula Constituency as estimated by the Central Bureau of Statistics (CBS) in October, 2004, stood at 65 per cent. Revised poverty levels will be computed and completed this year. (b) The Government has, in conjunction with other development partners, undertaken various projects and programmes in the constituency to alleviate the said poverty situation. The projects and programmes include regular Government projects undertaken in all constituencies in Kenya and other special ones negotiated between the Government and development partners. The main development partners operating in the constituency are the Organisation of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC), International Child Support, African Medical Research Foundation and Medicines sans Frontiers, Spain. The various projects and programmes being implemented address issues of health, education, food security, HIV/AIDS and infrastructure development.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I thank the Assistant Minister for the answer he has given. However, could he quantify the amount of money spent in the projects he has mentioned? That is because health does not put food on people's plates, neither does it put money into their pockets.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, during the year which ended 30th, June, 2006, the Government and other development partners had spent a total of Kshs192,858,193.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, could the Assistant Minister table a list of the amount of money spent in each constituency to fight poverty?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I appreciate that question. However, I prefer the hon. Member to raised it as a separate Question. That way, I will be able to table a list of the money set aside to fight poverty in the entire country.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Question is about alleviating poverty in Butula Constituency. People who are poor do not have anything to eat. They do not engage in activities that could generate money. My question is: What plans does the Assistant Ministry have to start industries or farming activities in Butula Constituency to enable the people to engage in income- generating activities?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, that is a good question. The Government, through the National Agriculture and Livestock Extension Programme (NALEP), which is a programme under the Ministry of Agriculture, has given money to assist farmers to grow enough food to feed the people of Butula Constituency. By 30th June, 2006, the Government and development partners had pumped in a total of Kshs1,553,927.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, hon. Members are aware that there has been a devastating drought in Arid and Semi-Arid Lands (ASALs). When it comes to the issue of poverty levels and indices, statistics from the Central Bureau of Statistics are completely misleading. What immediate action can the Assistant Minister take to upgrade those statistics, particularly in ASALs?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I agree with the hon. Member that, previously, no statistics on poverty indices were carried out. But I want to assure him that, currently, there are household statistics being carried out in North Eastern Province. We will release those statistics on July 12, 2006 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 2033 poverty levels in North Eastern Province very soon. Those are the figures that will be used to allocated money to alleviate poverty in North Eastern Province.
The hon. Member asked about North Eastern Province!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, generally, North Eastern Province falls under arid and semi-arid regions.
Mr. Assistant Minister, what about Isiolo and Mwingi?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, let me put it this way: The Government is in the process of compiling new statistics for the entire country, as far as poverty is concerned. The Government will use those statistics to address the issue of poverty.
Last question, Prof. Mango!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the latest poverty map shows that the poverty level in Butula Constituency stands at 70 per cent. It is not even the 65 per cent the Assistant Minister is talking about! I would like to invite him to come to Butula and show me the projects where the colossal amount of money was spent. I am not aware of those projects.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to say that I would be very much willing to go to Butula. However, I would like to inform the hon. Member and the House that several projects, including schools, have been undertaken. There was money from OPEC to construct schools, the Constituencies Development Fund (CDF), Local Authorities Transfer Fund (LATF) and other development partners. That money was given to Butula Constituency for purposes of alleviating poverty.
Well, Mr. Assistant Minister, thank you for your answer. However, the Chair has an issue with you. You informed the House that your Ministry sent a written answer to that Question last week. We have checked our records. There is nowhere where such an answer was received! I appeal to honourable Ministers to ensure that their offices deliver written answers. They should also ensure that they have their signatures. Mr Serut, our records show that, that answer was never received!
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. We will comply.
Very well! Next Question by the hon. Member for Masinga Constituency - Mr. Mbai!
asked the Minister for Water and Irrigation:- (a) whether he is aware that water pipes worth millions of shillings will go to waste as a result of the stalled Masinga Ekalakala Water Project; and, (b) what measures he is taking to revive the project.
Again, we have the same issue! No written answer has been received!
Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not know what could have happened. We sent the written answer to Parliament in good time. I cannot confirm whether it came here or it was sent elsewhere. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I will comply and produce records to show when it was delivered. However, I beg to reply. (a) I am aware that two water pumps and pipes were purchased under Machakos Integrated 2034 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES July 12, 2006 Development Programme. The pipes were laid for Ithanga-Muthesia line, but have never been utilised because the project wound up.
on a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The Minister is answering a different Question!
Mr. Katuku, address yourself to Question No.415. Is that what you are doing?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, unless the facts are wrong, I am addressing myself to Question No.451.
No, it should be Question No.415.
Then, I have the wrong answer, and I apologise for the mix-up.
Would you wish that I defer the Question so that you can sort yourself out? What do you propose we do?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, let us just check the file; may be it is a question of numbering. I wish the Question to be deferred.
I wish the Member could allow the Minister to finish the answer. Are you comfortable or shall we defer the Question? Fine, I will defer it to Tuesday afternoon so that both the Member and the Minister can consult.
Hon. Members, that is the end of Question Time.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise on a point of order to seek a Ministerial Statement from the Minister for Environment and Natural Resources regarding a plant by the name
, popularly known as Mathenge . This plant has been known to affect livestock and human beings. My research indicates that it has caused blindness in areas like Turkana, West Pokot, East Pokot and Baringo and has been covered by the media recently. It is disturbing to know that the plant was introduced in those areas by the Ministry. In his response, the Minister should tell us whether the plant was actually introduced by the Ministry, the purpose it had in mind while introducing a plant that has caused people's limbs to be amputated. He should also tell us the number of people affected so far and what the Ministry will do, in conjunction with the Ministry of Agriculture, to ensure that the plant is removed from the areas I have named.
The Minister for Environment and Natural Resources is not here. I will ask the Minister for Water and Irrigation to take brief.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I will pass over the information to my colleague. VIOLENT ARREST/BRUTAL BEATING OF HON. KOMBE
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to seek a Ministerial Statement from the July 12, 2006 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 2035 Minister of State for Administration and National Security, with regard to the violent arrest and brutal beating of the Member for Magarini, Mr. Kombe this afternoon. The Member's arrest is allegedly because of a civil debt that he owes the hon. Khamisi. I would like to know whether police officers are employed to collect debt for private citizens, and whether they are allowed to brutally beat up Members of Parliament as well as members of the public in their debt collection efforts for private citizens.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I seek your indulgence to issue the Ministerial Statement on Tuesday. In the meantime, it would appear that this is a matter of infringement of the law, in that no Member of this House can be arrested by anyone on account of owing a civil debt, if he is coming to or leaving this House. I also want to go into this matter and find out how the police was involved.
Order, hon. Members! I think the Minister is right. I have no objection to his request to issue his statement on Tuesday. I think he is right to find out why the police were involved because Clause 5 of Powers and Privileges Act is very clear on that matter. It could as well be a matter that should be dealt with by the Powers and Privileges Committee of this House. But let the Minister go and investigate, in particular as it relates to the arrest and alleged beating. The Chair will also consult with the Minister to see whether this is not a matter that can be dealt with by the Powers and Privileges Committee because obviously, there is a breach of law there. As for now, we let the matter rest there. Next Order.
Order, hon. Members! Mr. Salat was on the Floor and he has five minutes left.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I will continue from where I left yesterday. But before that, I want to commend the Minister for promising that he will take action 2036 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES July 12, 2006 against those police officers reportedly from the Flying Squad who brutally attacked a Member of Parliament. I witnessed the incident since I was outside and the force used to arrest hon. Kombe was too excessive. I think hon. Kombe was not accorded the dignity he deserves as an hon. Member. I would like to urge the Minister to ensure that Members of Parliament as well as the public are arrested in a dignified manner. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, yesterday before we adjourned, I was talking about the highlights of last year's tribal clashes where many people were evicted. For example, in Likia, the same excessive force was used by the security personnel that was sent by the Government to go and contain law and order in the area. I would like to urge the Minister to ensure that whenever force is to be used on the public, the exercise is done in a humane way. After the clashes, only people from a particular community were taken to court. If there were tribal clashes, could it have been the Kalenjins versus the Kalenjins? Most of the people who were arrested in Likia were only Kalenjins. These were referred to as tribal clashes and yet only members from one community were taken to court. I would like to urge the Minister to ensure that whenever there are skirmishes, all the culprits are arrested and taken to court. The Minister should go to the aid of the victims in time, so that many people are not affected. Yesterday, I touched on an issue that has shamed this nation. The presence of a very senior advocate, Dr. Gibson Kamau Kuria, at the Commission of Inquiry that is investigating the Artur brothers is questionable. He is defending the brothers. Whenever you see Dr. Kamau Kuria, you smell a scam. This is a man who is known to be siding with the Government and his presence at the Commission is questionable. The fiasco of the two strangers in our country has reduced the dignity of being a Kenyan. Kenyans should be treated with dignity. When strangers have more rights than the citizens of this country---
Mr. Salat, I want to bring to your attention that two Committees of this House are investigating that matter. A Commission of Inquiry is also investigating that matter. You have really gone out of the way to start talking about the proceedings and what a lawyer is dealing with. You can only touch on the matter generally without going into the details.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is in the public domain that this issue should not be washed away that easily. We need to discuss the matter, so that Kenyans can know that something is being done about it. However, I would like to touch on corruption. This Ministry has been mentioned as the most corrupt Ministry. It is surprising that this Ministry is under the Office of the President. When you hear that the Office of the President is one of the most corrupt Ministries---
Order! Your time is up!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, with those few remarks, I beg to support the Motion.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me this chance to also say a few words on this Vote. I will begin by clarifying one thing. The House feels that Kshs29 billion is a lot of money. If I was allocating the money, I would have given this Ministry double this amount of money. The assignment that this Ministry is supposed to undertake effectively, for the entire country---
Order, Mr. Muiruri! Could you, please, look at Standing Order No.85?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, for this Ministry to do all the work that is supposed to do, and do it efficiently, it needs double this amount of money. However, because there is scarcity of money, the Ministry will have to do with what is available. July 12, 2006 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 2037 I would like to congratulate the Minister for his commitment in running the Ministry. I would also like to congratulate his officers, including all his Chief Executives and the entire Provincial Administration for what they have done. I would like the Shadow Minister of State, who is responsible for matters related to Administration and National Security to acknowledge this fact when he will be contributing on the debate on this Motion because he knows what is involved in matters of national security. We should call a spade a spade and not a big spoon. I know hon. Members will criticise the Vote of this Ministry for the purpose of criticising, but we must appreciate and accept the work that has been done. There has been a lot of improvement in the last three years. Three years ago, there were areas where people could not spend a night. Some people used to ask their parents to come for money in Nairobi because if they took the money to the old parents, they would be attacked at night. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Ministry has done a lot of work. We must accept that it is not easy to solve problems which we inherited from the previous regime, which is not likely to come back. Whatever was planted for 20 years will need 40 years to be uprooted. I would like to ask---
Mr. Munyao, would you stop listening to the hon. Members? Please, address the Chair!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, could we all be as civilised as the hon. Member on the Floor? When I was in the Opposition, I was very civilised and I used to listen to what the Government side was saying.
You might be back very soon!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we inherited a lot of problems which had taken 40 years to plant and we now need another 40 years to uproot them. We need to take out the bad blood which had been ploughed into the civil servants. We must appreciate and accept that the Office of the President is committed to do a lot of good things. When you look at the concept of security, which I believe you know very well because you are a former trained civil servant, you realise that we actually need this money. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Ministry needs this money more, especially when we have increased the number of officers in the Provincial Administration. The chiefs and assistant chiefs have been increased and so the Ministry needs this money. Since Kenya is segmented in provinces, districts, divisions, locations and sub-locations I urge the House to pass this Vote. For example, a province without a provincial commissioner is not complete. A district without a district commissioner is not complete. A division without a district officer is not complete. If we create a location, it must have a chief to be complete. If a location is created it must have a sub-location to be complete. For ease of administration, assistant chiefs are very important because we need them to communicate and deliberate on Government policies. For that reason, I am requesting the hon. Minister to ensure that all divisions, including those in Mbooni, should have district officers. There is no question of having a division without a district officer. The same applies to locations. This is because a chief, assistant chief or district commissioner is required to be at work all the time. Even during the time they proceed on their annual leave there must be replacements. Therefore, staffing is very important. 2038 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES July 12, 2006 Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, above all, having the officers is not enough. The officers must be fully equipped. I have in mind a full district commissioner in full regalia boarding a matatu to go to work. The Government must protect the image of these people. The image of a Government is seen through assistant chiefs, chiefs, district officers, district commissioners and provincial commissioners. Therefore, if a district officer is appointed, he must be provided with a vehicle so that if he appears in a meeting, the public should recognise his arrival. A district officer's position should not be belittled. Having a district officer who boards matatus to go to work or who has no proper residence is terrible. We must keep the dignity and image of this Government. I am appealing that the vehicles we are surrendering be given to the district officers and district commissioners because they are the people who are governing Kenya properly. If we do this, we will get the right representation. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, now that insecurity is on the rise, it is not possible to hire a police officer as a bodyguard for every person. The right position would be that since we are 31 million Kenyans, then we should have 31 million police officers. However, is it possible? No, it is not possible. I appeal to Kenyans to be law abiding so that the job of the police is lessened. I also appeal for more police units down to the divisions, which are well equipped with vehicles and the things that pertain to their duty.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I am sorry that I am interrupting my good friend, the old man, but what he is saying is a policy matter which he should have raised in a Cabinet meeting. I do not know why he did not raise those issues there. He is discussing about chiefs and district officers, which he should have raised in a Cabinet meeting.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I heard you address the hon. Member as Archbishop. Could you inform him that this is the National Assembly or Parliament and not his church?
He should, therefore, not raise that point of order here. Let him raise it in his church!
Order! I am not going to allow that kind of exchange.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for the Minister to talk about church matters, and yet we are in this House?
Mr. Minister, is that in order?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, oh, I am surprised. He does not want church goers. He does not want to recruit me to his church. I only did not want to hear him, but I do not mind if I joined his church.
Order, Mr. Munyao! Now, your time is up!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I support.
Let the Shadow Minister respond. Maj-Gen. Nkaisserry!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, thank you for giving me this opportunity to respond to the Vote of the Ministry of State for Administration and National Security. July 12, 2006 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 2039 Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like at the outset to point out that the security department of this country needs to be supported, and we must remain patriotic in dealing with security issues of this nation. Having said that, it is hard to believe what we have seen in the last few months as regards security issues. It leaves a lot to be desired. When we take the example of the Artur brothers saga, you find that they came and assaulted our customs officials. They abused the Minister of State for Administration and National Security. They also challenged our Police Commissioner. We have the case of Lord Delamere who broke the laws of Kenya by, first of all, killing the late ole Sisina, and yet he was not jailed. We have forced disarmament of our people by the Government and that has exposed them to threats from outside this country. There is also mega-corruption in the Government of the Republic of Kenya, including those at the very top. The Anglo Leasing scam happened in this Ministry. This Ministry has also been cited as the most corrupt Ministry in this country, if not in the world. We need to be told how this money that we will vote for this Ministry will be spent. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Government must understand that national security is the provision or safeguarding of citizens and protection of their property. I doubt whether this Government is providing these services when we have foreigners whipping out pistols in front of Government Ministers. It is also very ironical that a Government Minister comes to this House and says that these people are investors. Is it not shameful? All these things have been going on, and yet we are going to vote a lot of money for this Minister to oversee. The security department must be respected. We should not ridicule our security department. When we have a leader who is insensitive and unconcerned to the needs of the citizens, then we cannot accept that particular individual to be the overseer of this money and Ministry.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, during the referendum, the Government went out to defraud citizens of their votes. They went out promising the creation of new districts without considering the amount of money it will require in terms of providing services such the district headquarters, offices for the OCPDs, DOs and chiefs. Some of us demanded for the creation of new constituencies instead of new districts. This is because constituencies will ensure the delivery of services to our people. They will also ensure representation in this House, the people's representation. What is the value of a district? A constituency is more valuable than a district. So, we need more constituencies rather than districts because districts use up more of the Government's meagre resources. The Budget of the Office of the President stands at approximately Kshs29 billion. What is the criteria for budgeting the Kshs29 billion? Is it based on the interest of national security? Those are fundamental questions which the Minister must answer. By the way, where is the Minister of State for Administration and National Security? Where is the Permanent Secretary in charge of this docket?
But I am here!
You are not the Minister of State for Administration and National Security! You are the Minister for Planning and National Development, and you are planning wrongly for this Government!
Order, hon. Members! Maj-Gen. Nkaisserry, you must address the Chair. 2040 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES July 12, 2006 Proceed!
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for Maj-Gen. Nkaisserry, who is so tired, to impute that I am not listening to what he is saying when, in fact, any Minister of Government can take a brief for his colleagues?
Mr. Obwocha, I have already ruled on that issue. The hon. Member is out of order!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I think the Minister is just trying to waste my time. However, I was just asking: "Where is the substantive Minister to receive the comments from the Shadow Minister?" "Where is his Permanent Secretary?" Mr. Obwocha, if you are the Minister for Planning and National Development, you must have planned very wrongly for this Government. That is why these people are not here!
Maj-Gen. Nkaisserry, please, address the Chair!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am addressing the Chair. I want to know whether these allocations are justified. Is this allocation based on the interest of national security? Has that question been addressed? When I look at the Budget of the Office of the President, I have not seen the presentation of the other departments. I have only seen the presentation of Internal Security. I have not seen the presentation of the other Ministries which fall under the Office of the President. If I am right, I know there is a huge amount of money which was allocated to the Office of the President. If this amount is presented in an amorphous way, this House will never interrogate the expenditure of this Government. For instance, for Vote R1, we are giving over Kshs25 billion. On Vote R2, we are giving Kshs810 million. On Vote R3, we are giving Kshs2.2 billion. I am leaving out Vote R8, which is a substantive Ministry, the Ministry of Defence, and Vote R45, the National Security Intelligence Service (NSIS), because these are institutions which I believe that the oversight committee of this House should deal with. If there is anything to be looked into, then they can submit. The specific Votes in Development Expenditure are D01 with a sum of Kshs3 billion. Vote D02 is on State House where a sum of Kshs264 million has been set aside, and Vote D03, the Department of Personnel Management (DPM), where a sum of Kshs245 million has been set aside. The amount of money allocated to these Votes needs to be explained. When the Minister comes to respond, he needs to come out quite clearly on this. In the case of State House, for example, for the last four years we have been allocating for Development Expenditure over Kshs264 million. We have not seen new houses being put up at the different State Houses and Lodges. When you look at the Kshs264 million which has been set aside for State House, Kshs214 million of this amount has been allocated for the renovation and refurbishing of State Lodges in Sagana, Kisumu and Kakamega. I submit that these lodges should be turned into national museums because the occupant has never used them. We do not need these State Lodges because the occupant is always in Nairobi. Mr. Shakombo's Ministry is lacking museums. Therefore, we should turn them into museums under the Ministry of National Heritage. I hope Mr. Shakombo is in support of my proposal. This is a perennial waste of public funds. I hope this House can pass this and convert these State Lodges to museums. We only need the State Houses in Nairobi, Nakuru and Mombasa, and the other lodges should be converted into national museums for our citizens to enjoy the history of this nation. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, when you look at the DPM--- I would like to be very specific here; I do not want to be seen as if I am criticising the Government. I am specifically talking about facts. Nepotism in this country is at the highest level. In fact, it is over 100 per cent. When we look at the appointments in missions, those appointed to various posts are either July 12, 2006 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 2041 relatives, brothers, cousins or in-laws of serving Ministers in the current Government. When you look at the heads of parastatals in this country, either these fellows are friends, brothers or relatives of Cabinet Ministers serving this Government. We are killing the fabric of this nation because---
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is the hon. Member in order to mislead this House that nepotism is at a high of 100 per cent? The facts are: Ministers are from across the Republic of Kenya. Therefore, they represent all corners of this Republic. Even if their relatives are the ones serving in the missions, it means that those missions are manned by Kenyans from all corners of this Republic.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, yesterday, we had a Minister of the Government raising a frivolous point of order. Those who raise such points of orders can be named. I think some candidates are appearing on the other side of the House. Let us look at specific Ministries. If you take an example of the Kenya Meat Commission (KMC), which was re-opened recently, my people are the majority suppliers of beef, but you can hardly find one member of the board from my area. When you see the line-up of the board of the KMC which was tabled this morning, you will be shocked. I do not want to get into the details of this matter. When you look at four Ministries in this Government today---
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for my colleague and good friend, who is on the Floor, to impute an improper motive that appointments to the Kenya Meat Commission (KMC) Board and recruitment of staff were not balanced, when the list of its employees was tabled here? In fact, he says nobody from his area was employed by the KMC. Could he withdraw these allegations?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am in order. The list was laid on the Table here. I went through it and saw that there was nobody from my constituency who was employed. The Minister should know that fact.
Where are you talking about?
I am talking about where I come from, whether it is Narok or Trans Mara. There was nobody from communities in these areas, who was appointed to the board, yet we are the biggest livestock farmers in this country!
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for the hon. Member, whom I doubt is a mathematician, to imply that there was unfairness in the appointment of the KMC Board? We have 210 constituencies in this country, but have only 15 board members. It was not possible to appoint a board member from every constituency. What is the hon. Member talking about?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I think the Minister is wasting my time. I am saying that we must do away with nepotism in this country. Today, when you look at appointments in five Ministries, you will see that their Ministers, Permanent Secretaries and other senior officers come from one area. We must root out nepotism from our public sector appointments. This is the message I am sending out, so that this country can prosper. We must kill 2042 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES July 12, 2006 nepotism for the unity of this country.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Order, Mr. Minister! We should debate soberly. What is your point of order?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the rules of this House allow me to rise on a point of order. I am a Minister for Livestock and Fisheries Development, but my Permanent Secretary is called Mr. ole Mairon. He is not a Mkamba. Is it in order for the hon. Member to imply that my Permanent Secretary is my tribesman?
He is not talking about your Ministry.
We should have order here. It is not a place where everybody can shout. Proceed, Maj-Gen. Nkaisserry.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am presenting a case for this country, so that we can become one nation. I am having a problem with Ministers who do not understand the importance of national cohesion. Some Ministers are here to defend themselves. When I talk about mega-corruption in this Government, I have in mind what has happened since this Government came to power. We know of some people who were poor when they joined the Government. Now they have lined their pockets and are "wider" than the roads of this country.
Who are they?
I can name them; do not worry about that. We have to root out nepotism and corruption from this country. When you look at the allocation to the Ministry of Provincial Administration and Internal Security, you will see that the GSU is given Kshs2.1 billion. Now, my question is why should we have our citizens being attacked by militiamen from Ethiopia when we have our security forces? What are the GSU officers doing to protect our people? We want our GSU officers to go to our borders to maintain security and order. We want this money to be used to buy communication equipment and vehicles for our security personnel. We want all the vehicles returned by Ministers and Assistant Ministers to be given to the police to enable them defend our people. This is the message I am trying to put across. It is wrong to have a Minister who has no clue as to what national security is all about! It is unfortunate that somebody who has no clue as to what national security is all about is in charge of it!. We must give our police good communication equipment and good housing, so that they have morale. In that way, they will be able to secure our Ministers who are being carjacked. One way of improving security is by giving our police good communication facilities. A police officer should be able to call his colleagues to report incidents of carjacking of Minister X or Y. We must root out nepotism and corruption. This is the message I am putting across to this Government. It is unfortunate that our Ministers do not understand national security issues. The Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security has said that he requires 3000 vehicles. What is the Government waiting for? It should repossess vehicles from other Ministries and give them to the police. In the meantime, it can bring to this House Supplementary Estimates so that we can give it more money, if it will not all have been stolen. Those in the Government have the habit of stealing money! Our problem in this country is that we have Ministers who defend themselves against every wrong doing. This is a Government where a Minister can wake up at midnight to stop execution of an order given by another Minister. He then ends up being bulldozed to hospital. This is an unfortunate situation in this country. It is a shame. We also have Ministers who cannot account for money allocated to their Ministries. July 12, 2006 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 2043 As I said earlier, I do not know the arrangements in the Office of the President, but I know that there are some departments whose budgets have not been presented. I would like to urge specific House Committees to deal with specific security institutions, so that money allocated to them is properly utilised to offer services to the people of this country. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, before I conclude my contribution, I would like to say that, as a House, we must demand proper utilisation of any money we approve. This Ministry has been identified as the most corrupt in the world. I am saying this because it is said to be the most corrupt in this country. So, we would like this money to be properly accounted for. We have been taken for a ride by this Government in the creation of more districts. We want development to be undertaken at the constituency levels and not at the district level. This is because decentralisation of projects is what is required by our people. We should not marginalise some communities by sub- dividing their districts without considering availability of resources. This will cause insecurity in this country. With those few remarks, I beg to support.
Ahsante sana, Bw. Naibu Spika wa Muda, kwa kunipa nafasi hii. Bunge lina majukumu makubwa. Jukumu lake la kwanza ni kutunga sheria ambazo zitaiwezesha Serikali kutoa huduma bora kwa wananchi. Jukumu lake la pili ni kutoa mwongozo utakaotumiwa na viongozi ili nchi hii iweze kupata manufaa. Jukumu la tatu ni kujadiliana jinsi mapato ya Serikali yatakavyotumiwa. Bunge huhakikisha kwamba kila mwananchi anapata huduma kutoka kwa Serikali. Bunge hili sharti lielezwe jinsi pesa hizo zinavyotumika. Waziri akiwasilisha maombi yake ya pesa humu Bungeni, yeye huwa anawakilisha Serikali kupitia Wizara yake. Wakati Waziri alipoomba apewe Kshs29 bilioni, hakufanya hivyo eti kwa sababu yeye binafsi anataka kuzitumia pesa hizo. Yeye analiomba Bunge limpe idhini ya kutumia hizi pesa kuendesha shughuli za Serikali. Kwa hivyo, jukumu la Wabunge ni kuhakikisha kwamba pesa hizo zimepeanwa ndiposa Serikali iweze kuendeleza kazi yake. Tunapopewa nafasi kujadili Hoja hii, haimaanishi eti tumepewa nafasi kuwajadili watu binafsi. Tukifanya hivyo, tutakuwa tumepotea njia. Jana nilihuzunishwa sana na hotuba za Wabunge fulani hapa Bungeni. Wabunge kadhaa hawakutaka hata kumwona Waziri alipokuwa akitoa Hoja hii. Sheria za Bunge hili zilipuuzwa hata ikakulazimu wewe, Bw. Naibu Spika wa Muda, kuingilia kati swala hilo ndiposa wakampa Waziri nafasi ya kutoa maoni yake. Kulikuwa na jaribio la kuangamiza hotuba yake. Kelele zilipigwa humu ndani na Waziri akatupiwa matusi. HANSARD inaonyesha wazi matusi hayo. Kwa nini tunaleta chuki ndani ya Bunge hili? Hili ni Bunge la heshima na ndio sababu sisi tunaitwa waheshimiwa. Inampasa mheshimiwa Mbunge yeyote kusikiliza maoni ya wenzake. Waziri hakuwa anatoa maoni yake; alikuwa anawakilisha Wizara yake alipokuwa akitoa Hoja kwamba anahitaji pesa za kumwezesha kufanya kazi yake. Haya yote yakitendeka jana, watoto wa shule walikuwa humu ndani wakishuhudia. Kwa nini watoto hutoka shuleni kwao kuja hapa Bungeni kusikiliza hotuba zetu? Ni kwa sababu wanajua kuwa sisi ni Wabunge waheshimiwa na wangependa sana kuiga mfano wetu. Je, ni mfano gani ambao sisi tulionyesha jana? Hata kulikuwa na Mbunge mmoja ambaye alisema kuwa Bunge litakataa kuidhinisha hilo ombi la Kshs29 bilioni. Ikiwa ombi hili litakataliwa, na Wabunge wanatarajia hali ya usalama iimarishwe, je, usalama huo utatoka wapi? Ni muhimu tutupilie mbali fikira zetu za kibinafsi juu ya Mawaziri wa Serikali. Ni kweli kwamba Serikali yetu imejaribu kufanya mambo mengi na hii Wizara imekuwa ikifanya kazi vema. Usalama unadumishwa humu nchini. Hakuna nchi yoyote katika dunia ambayo inaweza kudai kuwa imedumisha usalama kote. Mara nyingi tunasikia habari za ufisadi. Mimi ningependa kujua tuna malaika wangapi humu Bungeni ambao hawana dhambi. Hili ni jambo ambalo inatupasa tulichunguze ili tujue ukweli wake. Ni lazima tuheshimiane. Wakati huu tunahitaji pesa sana ili polisi wetu waweze 2044 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES July 12, 2006 kufanya kazi yao vema. Tunataka kuangalia maslahi yao; kwa mfano, tunataka kuwajengea nyumba na kuwapa vifaa vya kazi kama vile motokaa, redio na kadhalika. Bw. Naibu Spika wa Muda, wakati huu magereza yetu yamesongamana sana. Sisi tunataka kutumia hizi pesa kuwafundisha polisi sheria ili waelewe kwamba hawawezi kuwashika watu kiholela na kuwatupa korokoroni. Tunahitaji pesa ili vituo vya polisi viweze kuwa na korokoro. Magereza yote nchini yana watu takribani 52,000. Kati ya hawa, wafungwa ni 20,000 peke yake. Waliobakia ni watuhumiwa tu. Hawa watuhumiwa, ikiwa polisi wangekuwa wamefundishwa kazi yao vilivyo, wangepatiwa dhamana. Tukifanya hivyo, tutaweza kupunguza idadi ya wafungwa magerezani. Kwa nini basi hatuwezi kuondoa hisia za kibinafsi katika haya mambo yanayotukabili? Bw. Naibu Spika wa Muda ile dhana ya jamii kushirikiana na polisi katika kuangamiza uhalifu imesaidia sana katika kupunguza uhalifu nchini. Sasa tunataka kuzipa jamii zetu vifaa ambavyo vitawezesha udumishaji wa amani humu nchini. Tunataka pesa za kuwanunulia vifaa kama vile pikipiki ambazo zitawawezesha kushika doria vilivyo. Ofisi ya Rais ndio inasimamia idara ya uchapishaji wa makala ya Serikali. Ingekuwa bora ikiwa idara hii ingefanywa kuwa shirika la Serikali ili iweze kutenda kazi yake bila kuingiliwa na idara nyingine. Mambo mengi ambayo yanagusiwa katika magazeti yetu hakika si mambo ya kuleta maendeleo. Ni mambo ambayo yanalenga kuwafurahisha watu fulani. Wakati umewadia sasa wa Serikali kutumia pesa zake katika shughuli za kunufaisha magazeti ya Serikali, likiwemo gazeti rasmi la Serikali. Ni maoni yangu kuwa tunaweza sasa kuiondoa idara inayohusika na uthibiti wa matumizi ya madawa ya kulevya (NACADA) katika Ofisi ya Rais na kuipeleka katika Wizara ya Jinsia, Michezo, Tamaduni na Maswala ya Kijamii. Matumizi ya madawa ya kulevya na unywaji pombe ni maswala ya kijamii na inatupasa sisi katika jamii kupunguza tabia hizi. Tunatarajia kubadilisha mambo ili maadili yetu ya zamani ya kuheshimu maisha yaweze kutiliwa maanani. Bw. Naibu Spika wa Muda, tunatakikana kuongeza pesa ambazo Wizara hii inahitaji. Kuna idara nyingi katika Ofisi ya Rais na Kshs29 bilioni hazitoshi. Kule mashinani kuna machifu wasaidizi. Tunataka kuwapanulia barabara kule mashinani ili waweze kuzuru kila sehemu kuwasaidia wananchi. Bw. Naibu Spika wa Muda, kwa hayo machache, naomba kuunga mkono Hoja hii.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this Vote. I join the other side of the House to support this Motion. I am obliged to do so, first, as a senior citizen of this country and, secondly, as a person who has been brought up in the Office of the President. I believe and trust that the Office of the President is the heart and engine of this nation, because it deals with the security of the country. We should not be blinded by some flaws that could happen in any organization in the world. I can say that the system is working because we do not have civil strife in the country and no external aggression from outside our borders. I want to commend the Provincial Administration and the police who deal with civil matters in this nation. They have done exemplary work in curtailing crime in recent times. It would be totally wrong for us, as a nation, to always criticize for the sake of it and, therefore, demoralizing our officers who work day and night while we sleep in our houses peacefully. Whether it is raining or shining, you will always see a police officer or an administration police officer on the road on duty, while the rest of us are sleeping peacefully. The only thing we could do is appreciate their role and, therefore, support them wherever and whenever it is necessary. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to remind the House that what I am saying is from the bottom of my heart and my personal experience. If there are Government officers who July 12, 2006 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 2045 work 24 hours, 30 days in a month and 365 days in a year, it is officers in the Provincial Administration and police. I know that because when I was a District Commissioner (DC) and later a Provincial Commissioner (PC). I could not even go to the toilet without telling my secretary. That is because a DC could call to report a crisis which required Government intervention. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, to me, the allocation of Kshs29 billion is not adequate, if we want the Office of the President to cover all the aspects of security in the nation. We know that right now, there is hue and cry over the situation at our border with Ethiopia. Our officers are capable of handling the situation so long as they are facilitated with the necessary resources like motor vehicles, communication systems and even aircraft to ferry them to conflict zones as soon as possible. Our border is very long! It is very difficult to cover it by road. Sometimes you need swift movements of troops and officers. You can only do that when you have the necessary facilities to move into those areas. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, regarding the creation of new districts--- When districts were created during the last regime, people said that they were "political districts"! The other day, when this Government created new districts, people said they were political districts simply because they coincided with the Referendum. I believe that the requests were from leaders and the people of those particular areas. There is no district which is not a political district. Nyeri is a political district. That is why it is represented by constituencies. Similarly, all the other districts were created after Independence on the basis of politics. That is why we are here to represent people from those districts. I believe that it is out of necessity that districts were created. At the Bomas of Kenya, we were talking about devolution. Creation of districts is an indirect way of devolution because people will get employment and development. What else do we need? We need employment and development. Therefore, people should hold their horses. Those who do not want the new districts, it is up to them. For us who want them, we say: "Thank you very much!" I request the Minister to hasten the creation of those districts. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, there is only one thing that I want to differ with not only this Government, but also with the previous one! When districts are created and people disagree, surely, is it not the responsibility of the Government to arbitrate and take the necessary action? We have maps and records left by the colonial government. We also have records of the present Government. Even the current maps of constituencies and wards, particularly in our area--- The areas belonging to various clans, including grazing areas, are specified. So, what happens is that when the other group does not want you to have a district, they will oppose it. But instead of the Government going into the records and saying: "No, this is proper", you are left alone to solve the crisis and agree among yourselves. In the process, you have no option but to agree. I want to say that, although we have agreed on the boundary of Ijara District, I hope that, one day, as the President has assured us, we are going to have a new Constitution. It will create boundaries commission which will revisit some of those issues. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, regarding the Provincial Adminstration, I want to commend the Minister. When the NARC Government took over power, there was euphoria to do away with the Provincial Administration. I think even in the proposed new Constitution, there was an indication that it should be scrapped. I am one of those people who opposed it. In 1970, as a District Officer (DO), I was sent to Kitui on a one-month assignment. I asked people whether there was any alternative to the Provincial Administration. I compiled a report, which must be lying somewhere at the Kenya Institute of Administration (KIA). They were unanimous that we cannot substitute it with any other system. If people were to be elected to lead provinces, we can imagine what would happen. If we cannot even agree in this House, we can imagine what a Provincial Commissioner (PC) who is elected would go through, arbitrating issues. Even the United States of America (USA) system took 200 years to be where it is. Maybe, one day, we shall be there. At the 2046 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES July 12, 2006 moment, there is need for us to strengthen the Office of the President and the Provincial Administration. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, with those few remarks, I beg to support.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I stand to support the request by the Ministry of State for Administration and National Security that we grant it about Kshs29 billion for purposes of Provincial Administration, Police, Administration Police (AP), Government Printer and the outfit that fights drug abuse. This Ministry is one of the most important Ministries in this country. It represents the Presidency itself. When it makes a mistake and goes down, it brings down the entire institution of the Presidency and, indeed, our country. So, it is important that as we discuss this Vote, the officials who run this Ministry be fully aware of the responsibility that they carry. They carry Kenya with them! It is, therefore, important as we approach the general election, that the Ministry starts speaking in one language. If the Commissioner of Police, the Criminal Investigations Department (CID) Director and Harambee House speak in different languages, it sends confusing messages to Kenyans and, indeed, the world. So, I hope that as we approach general election next year, activities in this Ministry will be well co-ordinated. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, Kenya has become a centre and transit point for drugs. The price of heroine and other drugs has dramatically gone down in the last one year. The resources that the National Agency for the Campaign Against Drug Abuse (NACADA) is being given are ridiculously low. If we want to fight the problem of drug trafficking and abuse and protect our youth, we must give the NACADA and other institutions that are supposed to fight drugs a substantial amount of money, so that they deal with this problem. I am happy to see that an attempt has been made in the creation of an advisory committee that will deal with this particular issue. But I would like to recommend that a substantial amount of money be sent to the NACADA institution. The previous Director said in a statement that his biggest worry was that drugs were controlled by "big people," and it was difficult to fight them. So, to fight "big people" we need a lot of resources. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to talk about police housing. A year ago, my car broke down at a roadblock. I spent three hours with the police at that roadblock. They told me that they needed a lot of help. But they said they needed good housing more than vehicles. They insisted that I talk about housing for the police in Parliament. When a wife visits a policeman in a typical police station, he has to persuade his colleagues to move out, so that he can spend time with his wife and children. Good housing will give them the morale to do their work. To them, housing appears to be more important than the uniforms and boots that they are given. I also hope the prices of boots and uniforms will be reasonable. One of the advantages of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) is that it has enabled us to learn the prices of things. We know that a uniform costs so much. But when it is bought by the police, it becomes very expensive. We would like to see the prices of these things reduced to reasonable levels, so that we can buy more. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to refer to the police recruitment. I know that there have been a lot of accusations in the past about the process of recruitment. However, the police and AP are doing a good job under difficult circumstances. This is because we are the same people who put pressure on them when it comes to recruitment. We are the same people who bribe them and demand our people to be employed. I would like to urge the Minister and his team to ensure that transparency continues and improves in the future, so that we can get the best material in the police and AP recruitment, and be assured of our security in the coming years. Anybody found to be involved in corruption on matters of recruitment should be dealt with ruthlessly and quickly, so that they can serve as an example to other people who are involved in the recruitment July 12, 2006 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 2047 process. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, even in the most advanced countries, the bulk of printing is not done by a single government printer. We must consider the possibility of outsourcing some of the routine reports that the Government Printer does. I appreciate the position of certain security-type documents be done by the Government Printer, but we must create jobs for the small printers in our country. We should give them routine documents that do not require any security issues. If some of those businesses were given to small printers, I am confident that we will not be jeopardising Government security. On the contrary, we will be increasing efficiency, timely production of some reports and also increasing employment opportunities for our people. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, it appears that there is a quiet sacking of chiefs. I am not sure of the criteria being used to sack them. It is important for us to be careful because if today I make a complaint about some of them to a Government office; for example, to the National Security Intelligence Service (NSIS) or to the Kenya Anti-Corruption Commission (KACC) or to any office, whether it is a major complaint or not, that is often being used as one of the criteria for sacking chiefs. Chiefs play a very important role and we must encourage them. I agree that we must retrain them. But in the process that is ongoing to quietly retire and sack them, we must be very careful not to create more enemies for the Government by sacking too many of them. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, you will recall that when we were supposed to use them to ensure that we win the referendum by threatening them, they reacted. So, let us not over- sack them because they have families and are men of great influence in the society. Part of the public relations job for the Government is to ensure that we do not sack many chiefs because we can create enemies at the grassroots level. This will make it very difficult for us next year when the General Elections approach. I am mentioning that fact because, in my district, I know that about 17, 18 or 19 chiefs have been affected. When you listen to the reasons for their sacking, I am not sure that the grounds are necessarily valid. I also know a district in the province where 30 chiefs and assistant chiefs have been affected. I am not sure if that will be good for the Government. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, as I finish making my contribution, security tenders is my favourite subject. I know that we must continue issuing security tenders, but we must scrutinize them and avoid what has happened in the past. This is a Ministry with huge balances when it comes to security tenders. So, let us be careful. In the last four years, we have learned the dangers and temptations which come with security tenders. We know that big money is involved here and you can utter Kshs1 billion and nobody will know, but those days are gone. We are monitoring them and we have institutions which are monitoring them. We know the sources of this equipment and we know the real costs. So, I would like to suggest to the people involved in the awarding of tenders to be careful. They should negotiate and re-negotiate Anglo Leasing type tenders, if they are negotiable. They should not leave the country exposed. With those few remarks, I beg to support. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I would also like to start my contribution on this Motion with the issue of constituencies. Last term, we agreed that a Motion should be brought to this House in order to create more constituencies. To date, nothing has happened. This is a very important Ministry, and if we are not careful, it will not deliver at all. If you look at what appears on the Printed Estimates, in the Recurrent Vote, they have factored in some funds to the tune of kshs240 million and Kshs300 million for each department of the police. That item is known as "Specialized Material". When the Minister is replying, he should tell us what "Specialized Material" means. What are those specialized materials? If you go to the Police Airwing Department, they have factored in Kshs400 million for the overhaul of vehicles. Even if they wanted to pocket that money, they should have looked for something else! They cannot 2048 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES July 12, 2006 overhaul vehicles at a cost of Kshs400 million. It is not possible! The Minister should come here and tell us which vehicles are going to be overhauled at a cost of Kshs400 million. Ordinarily, if you were to go for new vehicles, you can buy 2,000 Toyota Prados with that money. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, on the issue of retrenchment, we have said here that if any Government department wants to retrench workers, they cannot do it arbitrarily without bringing a Sessional Paper in this House. It was agreed that a Sessional Paper should be brought to this House so that we can debate on its merits and demerits, and then the House can give you the authority to go ahead and retrench. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would also like to talk about hardship allowances for policemen and policewomen. It is so sad that police officers are still getting Kshs20 as hardship allowance. This is unheard of! There is no country where you can disburse Kshs20 as hardship allowance. The Minister knows that even during the precambrian days, you could not be given Kshs20 as hardship allowance. I would like to request the Minister to improve on the hardship allowance of police officers. Regarding police officers' housing, it is common knowledge and my colleagues have also talked about it. As long as you cannot house police officers adequately, they will continue taking bribes from citizens. Let us be serious! In fact, this Ministry needs a serious Minister who says something which will be heard by all Kenyans! The reason why I am saying that this Ministry requires a serious Minister is because when we talk about security or "insecurity", you will remember how we have been taken round in circles when we asked about the Armenians. We were told in this House that they were potential investors! On 18th March, 2006, the Interpol Report advised the Minister that they were mercenaries. The Minister came back to this House in May, 2006, and said that we were talking about potential investors. As I said last time, this is a Government project. Even if you look at what I laid on the Table last time, you will find the names of Mr. Jimmy Kibaki, Ms. Winnie Wangui, Mr. Joseph Kamau, Mr. Alfred Gitonga, the Provincial Criminal Investigation Officer (PCIO), Nairobi and the General Service Unit (GSU) Commandant. Neither of them have gone to record a statement with the police and the Minister is here telling us that these are potential investors! Where are those potential investors from?
Shame on him!
Shame on the Minister! Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I apologize. Shame on the Minister!
Order! This House must remain respectable! Our Standing Orders are very clear. You are not allowed to use offensive language. Mr. Ojode, I would like you to withdraw that remark and apologize to this House.
I withdraw, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I had actually withdrawn that remark and apologized.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I withdraw and apologize.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Please, Mr. Wanjala, let me make my contribution. July 12, 2006 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 2049 Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, when I laid the report, which was given to the Director of the NSIS, on the Table, the observation was very clear, and that was the conclusion. The conclusion was as follows:- "In view of the foregoing, Messrs. Margaryan and Sargasyan are international criminals who have excelled in organized crime activities---" They are knowledgeable in mercenary acts, gun running and drug trafficking. They have been using forged passports to conceal their real identity. Surprisingly, they, too, know the sons of the late Akasha, the notorious drug baron.
Order! Order! Where are you reading that from?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I just want to alert the House about the conclusion of the report that was tabled here last week. It is important for us to know---
Could you protect me, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir?
Order! Order, hon. Members! Mr. Ojode shall be heard! We must give him time to say what he wants to say.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Next time, we will elect you the substantive Speaker.
Order! Order! Mr. Ojode, are you really interested in this debate?
I am interested, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.
If you are, then be serious and stick to the debate!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have always been serious. What I am talking about is very serious because it is matter of life and death. Who knows whether the Artur brothers could be back in the country. The Artur brothers' passports were not stamped as "Prohibited Immigrants".
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is the hon. Member in order to continue with the Artur brothers' story when he knows that there is the Judicial Commission of inquiry appointed by the President to investigate their activities while in the country, as well as the joint Parliamentary Committee, which is undertaking a parallel investigation into the same matter? Could you order him to stop that debate?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, my worry is just one: This is a very serious issue which can bring a lot of problems to this country. As you are aware, the two Artur brothers left the country without their passports being stamped as "Prohibited Immigrants". Suppose they come back?
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Order, Dr. Machage! I just fell short of telling you that what you raised was not a point of order. Could you let Mr. Ojode finish his contribution?
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. What I am saying is: The 2050 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES July 12, 2006 passports of the Artur brothers were not stamped as "Prohibited Immigrants", as is the tradition. Who knows whether they are back in the country? If they are back in the country, what are the specific intentions of these fellows? The Artur brothers were a Government project. The Government brought them into the country. The Government hired terrorists from a foreign country to come and terrorise its own people.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I want to confirm to this House that the Government has not hired anybody for whatever reason that is being alleged here by the hon. Member. Secondly, I am aware that he stole the document he is reading.
Order! Order! Hon. Members, we are not doing the right thing. I think what Mr. Michuki intended to do was to ask Mr. Ojode to substantiate his allegation that the Government hired these people. That is what it is all about.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am ready to substantiate.
Time up, Mr. Ojode!
Why did you ask me to substantiate?
Order! Your time is up! You may have the Floor, Mr. Kiunjuri!
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me the opportunity to contribute to this debate. I rise to support the Motion. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am surprised that hon. Members of this House can discuss issues of national importance as if they do not live in this country. They speak as if our children will not be brought up in this country or they are ready to leave this country tomorrow when it falls apart. When one talks about matters that affect this nation, especially with regard to the economy, one has to be very serious. We have watched on television, hon. Members of this House calling upon the governments of the United Kingdom (UK) and the United States of America (USA) to issue travel advisories to their nationals against this country, citing security lapses at our airports. I wonder why that has to be the case because most of the hon. Members who say such things come from the poorest parts of this country. The children of the people they represent here are the ones who require the free primary education. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, when an hon. Member makes utterances that can hurt the country's economy, he is not hurting himself, because he earns more than Kshs500,000. He is hurting children from the poor families who require water, boreholes and relief food. Unfortunately, such hon. Members do not feel ashamed when calling upon foreign governments to do everything possible to sabotage this country's economy. These people are digging deep holes into which they will be the first ones to fall. For the first time, Parliament should distinguish between issues that benefit us, as hon. Members, from those touching on the interests of our children and this nation generally. As human beings, we have our own weaknesses. However, much as a Minister may have offended the nation, we are still living in this country. Ironically, it is the same hon. Members who are asking the House not to approve this Vote today who will call the Minister when they hear the sound of a tyre burst outside their residents, to tell him that they have heard a bomb blast. They will ask the Minister to beef up security in their areas of residence.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, these are Presidential candidates who, on seeing strange cars in their neighbourhoods, come running to this House alleging that their lives are in July 12, 2006 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 2051 danger and requesting for more bodyguards. We are challenging the Minister to withdraw some of those bodyguards. They are holding onto those bodyguards because they see some imaginary vehicles trailing them wherever they go. Today, they are calling upon the House not to vote for this particular Ministry. Some hon. Members who shout the loudest here have been mentioned adversely in matters touching on the Artur brothers. So far, they have not been exonerated in one way or the other. There is no difference between a thief and an accomplice. If you have been mentioned---
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is the hon. Member in order to suggest that the security personnel that have been provided to hon. Members of this House should be withdrawn, when he knows very well that security is a constitutional right for every Kenyan?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, by making that simple statement, the archbishop is assured of coming back to Parliament. I do not have to respond to it. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Commission of Inquiry is still going on with inquiry. It has not concluded its findings. Some of the Presidential candidates have been mentioned adversely.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Apart from the Assistant Minister trivialising the issue of security, I would like to seek the guidance of the Chair on whether he is actually doing the Official response.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is unfortunate that this has come from an hon. Member who also presides over this House. We are both experienced hon. Members of this House. I have been with him in this House for the last nine years. I have the right to issue my personal comments. That is exactly what I am doing.
What I am saying is that some people have been mentioned in connection with the Artur brothers. The Commission has not concluded its work. So, they have not yet been exonerated. Proceedings of the joint Parliamentary Committee investigating the same matter are also going on. It has not concluded its work. Therefore, it is only good for us to wait and hear the outcome of the Commission and that of the joint Parliamentary Committee. We have heard people talk loudly against some districts that were created recently. Under what circumstances were some districts created five years ago? When these districts were created, was there any co-operation between the Government and certain political parties? Was there any referendum campaign that was going on then? What were the circumstances at that particular time? When some districts were created five years ago, a certain political party was co-operating with the ruling party then. For instance, Laikipia District is more than 25,000 square kilometres, while Bondo District is only 30 square kilometres. Ironically, Bondo is a complete district with five administrative divisions and two constituencies. When was that district created? Was it created when this country attained Independence? People preach water here and take wine.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Mr. Kiunjuri knows very well that one of the criteria used in curving out new districts from existing ones is population density.
Order, hon. Members! Sorry Mr. Kiunjuri. It is now time for the Minister to respond. I will give you one minute to wind up and then call upon him to respond. 2052 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES July 12, 2006
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I was saying that the district was created by the KANU Government. Now that new districts are coming up and they are not cooperating, the move has become a crime. Who started insecurity in Kibera? An hon. Minister at that particular time, in the previous Government, asked members of a certain community not to pay rent. The same hon. Member stood in this House and said that Kibera is being isolated knowing very well that he caused the insecurity that is preventing people from going there. For the first time he--- I support.
Order, it is now time for the Minister to respond on various issues which have been raised in this House. Mr. Minister, it is your time. You have 30 minutes. At 5.30 p.m, we will go into a Committee of the Whole House.
Order, Mr. Wanjala! That is the sort of thing that you have been advised against time and again. Proceed, Mr. Minister!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, before, I respond, with your indulgence, I would like to give five minutes to Mr. Ndwiga and five minutes to my Assistant Minister, Mr. Kingi.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Within the five minutes, it is not possible for me to cover most of the things I would have liked to talk about. However, in supporting this Motion, I would like to dwell on two issues only. The first issue is to request the Minister, now that we are passing this Vote, to deal decisively and immediately, with hon. Members, be it Ministers or just hon. Members, when they incite Kenyans. I want to say that some of us should be arrested immediately for inciting Kenyans. We cannot come to this House and dwell on insecurity issues, yet as soon as we walk out, we incite Kenyans to break the law. Yesterday, I personally listened to my friend, Mr. Raila, rubbishing the creation of new districts in the country. I remember that the last time my friend was cooperating with the KANU Government, at one time, he demanded and five districts were created in his region. The districts were Nyando, Migori, Bondo, Karachuonyo and Suba. These are---
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I think the Minister is misleading this House. Is it in order for him to mislead this House that Nyando District and the rest that have been mentioned were created during our partnership with KANU? The districts were created way before the partnership took place.
Yes, that is it!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, protect me from Mr. Ojode. First of all, that is not a point of order. Secondly, we all know that before you get to an actual marriage, there is payment of dowry and other things. That was the point. I would like to urge hon. Members of this House to be particularly patriotic. I also want to raise an issue with members of our Press. When I was outside the country I read an article concerning some of our army personnel who were distributing water in the North Eastern Province. July 12, 2006 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 2053 In reporting the event, our own Press was busy rubbishing the efforts by the Government to distribute famine relief. With those few remarks, I beg to support.
Asanti Bw. Naibu Spika wa Muda, kwa kunipa fursa hii, ili nizungumze machache kuhusu Hoja iliyo mbele yetu. Kabla sijafanya hivyo, nataka kuomba radhi kwa sababu asubuhi ya leo, hatungeweza kuyajibu Maswali yetu ya Bunge. Hii ni kwa sababu tulikuwa katika mkutano ambao tuliuitisha ili tujadili ripoti iliyosema kwamba Ofisi ya Raisi imekumbwa na ufisadi. Tulipokuwa katika mkutano huo, tulijichunguza. Ningependa kuhakikishia Bunge kwamba tutafanya jambo ambalo linafaa kufanywa ili kuiondoa sura hiyo mbaya ambayo ilitangazwa. Tutafanya jambo lolote tuwezalo katika Ofisi yetu, ili kuhakikisha kwamba tunatoa huduma kwa wananchi vile inavyopaswa. Jambo moja ambalo limezungumziwa sana ni lile la ufisadi. Nataka kulizungumzia, pengine nikiangalia upande mwingine. Ufisadi tunaouzungumzia wahusu utumiaji mbaya wa fedha na mali ya Serikali. Lakini pia, kuna ufisadi mwingine ambao ni mbaya zaidi, pengine kuliko ule wa kutumia fedha za umma vibaya. Tunapokuja kwa Bunge hili na kuzungumzia maswala muhimu kama vile Urekebishaji wa Katiba, tunatoa maoni yetu kuhusu swala kama vile utawala wa mikoa. Wengine wetu tumeshasema kwamba mfumo wa utawala wa mikoa ni mbaya sana na haufai. Inafaa tufuatilie jambo hilo zaidi mpaka tutakapoandika Katiba mpya, ili tuondoe utawala wa mikoa. Wengine wetu ambao tulisema utawala huo ni mbaya, tulitoka nje na kuwaambia wananchi na maofisa wa utawala wa mikoa kwamba wakatae Katiba Kielelezo kwa sababu wakiikubali wataachishwa kazi. Kama huo si ufisadi mbaya, nahitaji kuelezwa ufisadi ni nini. Tumezungumzia mambo ya Wilaya. Tunachofanya katika Ofisi yetu leo ni kuhalalisha wilaya zilizoundwa wakati wa Serikali iliyopita. Pia, wakati huo huo, tulikuwa tukiwapa wananchi ambao hawakupata, wilaya mpya na wanazihitaji ili tuhakikishe kwamba wanapata huduma karibu nao. Tunapokaa katika Ofisi yetu, tunapata maoni kutoka kwa wananchi kila siku, na ripoti kutoka watawala wetu wa mikoa na maoni mengi kutokana na mikutano mingi ambayo wananchi wanahudhuria. Katika ripoti hizo zote, tunaona ya kwamba wananchi wanataka wilaya mpya ili wapate wakuu wa wilaya na huduma ziwe karibu nao. Hatujapata ripoti yoyote kutoka sehemu yoyote ambapo wananchi wanakataa Wilaya yao na kusema ivunjwe ili iwe pamoja na nyingine, lakini tunapata ripoti za kuunda wilaya mpya ili huduma ziwe karibu na wananchi. Tunapokuja katika Bunge hili, tunawakilisha wananchi. Ikiwa wananchi hao ndio wanaosema wanataka wilaya mpya halafu tukija hapa tunasema hatutaki wilaya mpya, siwezi kujua tunawakilisha nani kwa sababu wananchi wanataka wilaya mpaya. Uhalifu ni kutu kibaya na adui mkubwa na usalama. Hiyo ndio sababu tunafaa kuunga mkono Hoja hii ili Serikali ipate pesa za kuimarisha usalama katika Taifa hili. Tunafaa kuimarisha usalama ili shule zetu ziendeleze kazi zao vizuri na watu wetu wapate huduma bila shida. Ukiangalia kiwango cha askari sambamba na idadi ya wananchi, utaona yakwamba askari mmoja hulinda watu 1,150. Askari mmoja anawezaje kulinda idadi kubwa hivyo ya wananchi? Itawezekanaje afisa mmoja atoe usalama kwa Wakenya wengi namna hiyo? Tunataka tuongeze idadi ya maafisa wa polisi, tuwape elimu bora ili tuhakikishe wanafanya kazi yao vizuri. Kufanya hivyo kunahitaji pesa ili tupanue vyuo vinavyotumiwa kuwapa mafunzo askari wetu. Tutaweza pia kuwapatia nyumba nzuri ili waache kulala watu wanne au watano katika nyumba moja. Hao pia ni maafisa wanaotaka kuheshimiwa. Bw. Naibu Spika wa Muda, hivi juzi, tulianza mfumo wa community policing . Pale wananchi wamezingatia mfumo huo, hasa upande wa Magharibi mwa Kenya, matokeo yake ni mazuri. Uhalifu umepungua sana. Kwa hivyo, tunataka kuwauliza wale ambao hawajazingatia 2054 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES July 12, 2006 mfumo huo, wafanye hivyo ili tuweze kuimarisha usalama katika sehemu tunazotoka. Kwa hayo machache, naunga mkono Hoja hii.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for that indulgence. First of all, I want to thank hon. Members of this House, particularly those who have gone straight to address the Motion itself. Those are hon. Members who have avoided bringing into this very important Vote, siasa zamagazeti . Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, on the issue of security, which is the paramount duty of this Office, I would like to say that it would be more useful to this House if hon. Members inquired from my office what is going on with various matters related to security, before bringing them to this House. For example, when Mr. Raila Odinga was contributing, he said that we have failed to give security because the former Chief of General Staff (CGS) of Kenya Armed Forces was attacked at this House. He also said that Dr. Kituyi had been carjacked in this town. It is true that those events took place. However, had he enquired, we would have told him that those who had invaded the house of the former CGS were killed within the compound by security forces. They did not get away with it. The people who carjacked Dr. Kituyi are known to the police and, within 48 hours, one of them had been arrested. The other should be in custody because the police are looking for him. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, issues regarding security are not like football, which some people pretend to play even though they have never been to a playing field. It is not something that you see and pursue. It is not something that is expected, so that you are ready to repulse it. It happens because it is part of human nature. It is part of the human nature which we are dealing with. It is the product of this society. When hon. Members praise failures instead of success, what are they trying to do? Are they trying to convince other people that this country has gone to the dogs? Even, as it has been said here, is it patriotic for anyone to go to foreign missions and ask that Kenya Airways be barred from flying? Whatever politics we want to pursue, there are certain basic aspects of this country that must remain wholly. The need for security - because security is not a matter that we should play around with. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, during that contribution, I was even called names in this House. I was called names because of two foreigners. The two foreigners have kept this House busy because at some stage, somebody happened to say: "There are mercenaries in this country!" From that moment, we got engaged with two foreigners. Why do we not get engaged with those who kill our people? Why have we not engaged with those who have guns in this town? Why do we not engage ourselves with those who indulge in drugs? Those are people who are ruining our children. The future generation of this country is being ruined even by our own people, who are friends of some hon. Members here! Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am trying to say that we will not solve anything by abusing others. We will not solve anything by calling others names and so forth. There is a name that was used here. The name " Kimendeero " was given to me when I was two years old. It is a nickname. If you want to know about it, I want to table this writing, which is not mine. It explains my background. I want to table this with your permission, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.
It is because of Murang'a politics, which had invaded this House! It is Murang'a politics because, for many years, I was able to keep certain people at bay! It is also that---
Order, Mr. Michuki! First of all, you July 12, 2006 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 2055 know our rules. This newspaper cutting is not admissible in this House. So, you cannot table it! Please, proceed!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, let me move on to the issue of districts, so that hon. Members can be clear about it. The President issued a gazette notice, expressing his interest to create new districts in Kenya as named in that notice. That was the intention. Following the expression of that wish to create new districts, and as a response to the request by the people, we took steps to buy special equipment to carry out the survey of boundaries. We put the issue into the hands of the leaders, who would determine the headquarters, boundaries and names of the districts. The equipment which we were waiting for are very vital. They are going to do a job that would have taken us six years, only three months. So, the survey is going on and by the time it is finished sometime in September, we shall be able to describe precisely, within one millimetre margin of error, all the boundaries between various districts. On the basis of the existing law, jurisdiction of these commissioners, magistrates and police will have been established, because then there would be no dispute as to how far their powers extend. So, this is the position where we are. Everything has been agreed in all districts except seven. As I said the other day, I want to urge those concerned to settle the outstanding issues. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, on the participation of Members of Parliament in security committees in the districts, I think it is as well that we explain. Security meetings in a district are the morning prayers of Government employees trying to examine whether there has been any breach of security or what action needs to be taken. It is not a political process. It is an administrative process. That being the case, therefore, I feel that the matter should be left that way, because that is how it would work more suitably. I need not repeat the issue of Provincial Administration. This organisation goes right down to the grassroots levels. There was this report, which is the assessment of corruption as perception by Kenya Anti-Corruption Commission. I want to inform this House that we do not condone corruption. Indeed, this morning, from 9.00 a.m. to 2.00 p.m. the five Ministers in the Office of the President with their heads of department, Provincial Commissioners and Permanent Secretaries, met at the Kenya School of Monetary Studies to look at this matter, and we have issued a statement. One of the Ministers, hon. Karume is here. We will take this as a challenge, first of all, because of perception. There is no other Ministry of Government, other than the Office of the President, where there is so much contact with the citizens of this country.
Order! Whose phone is that? Mr. Gumo, could you take that phone to the orderlies to keep it and come back and sit where you are.
All right. You may proceed, Mr. Minister!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, we met this morning to address the issue of corruption. I would urge Members of Parliament and the public to read that report. If you do that, you will see that the Ministries that come into contact with citizens on a day-to-day basis are the ones that are listed as corrupt because of certain delays in delivery of service. 2056 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES July 12, 2006 As you may appreciate, for a society that has been immersed in corruption for many years, when an action is delayed, immediately, one thinks that officers want something from him. So, there is that element of corruption which we know is taking place in certain areas. But it is basically at the point of service delivery. For example, there are no drugs at a hospital or the sub- chief becomes blood-minded and he just wants this fellow to come back tomorrow. All these things are there. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am saying that we are not condoning anything. We want to give the best of the service that we can command. Security is also a very difficult nut to crack. I would like this House to understand that maintaining security is not like playing football. On the procurement issues, as you know, the new laws have isolated items that might be designated to be a part of security and yet, they are not security items.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I can hardly hear what is going on because of loud consultations from the Government side.
Order! It is not only from the Government side, it is just that we have got loud consultations. Could we please consult quietly? Proceed, Mr. Minister.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I think I have covered quite a bit of it. I would like Members to join their communities in community policy because that brings security forces closer to the people. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, on the issue of Government Press, suggestions have been made on the Floor of this House and we are seriously going to look into that matter in order to find out whether there is any reason why we cannot move in the direction that this House has suggested. With those remarks, I beg to move.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, a sum not exceeding Kshs14,359,920,980 be issued from the Consolidated Fund to complete the sum necessary to meet expenditure during the year ending 30th June, 2007 in respect of:- Vote 01 - Ministry of State for July 12, 2006 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 2057 Administration and National Security
Hon. Members, let us all pay attention because we are now going to the details; Item by Item. Therefore, let us pay attention, so that we can finalise this Vote very quickly. It is a very large Ministry and we need to go through it fairly quickly before we run out of time.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir. I rise to seek your guidance because this is probably the most important job that Parliament could ever do. I have a book on the Recurrent Expenditure and I do not see the relevant pages, neither do I see them on the smaller book. We need your guidance to know exactly where we are, so that we can scrutinise the Vote of this Ministry.
This is Volume 1, Vote R01-R16. This is Recurrent Expenditure for 2006/2007. We will start from page 3. The Clerk has read the Heads from page 3 up to Head 578 which is on Page 10.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I stand to seek your guidance. You have said that we should go up to Page 11 of the Recurrent Expenditure Volume 1, but I have not heard you read out Heads 797, 931 and 931.
Hon. Muturi, we have read the Heads up to Head 578 on page 10. The rest will come later.
But they are still under Sub-Vote 010?
(Mr. M'Mukindia) Yes.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I would like the Minister to say something about Head 038, Item 2211300 - Other Operating Expenses. You will agree with me that the Minister requires a lot of money. Last year, he asked for about Kshs500 million for this Item. We want him to explain to us what he means by Other Operating Expenses that require Kshs255 million.
Where is that Item?
Mr. Minister, you are using the wrong book. Use the big book because that is what the House has.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, this is in the Recurrent Expenditure, Volume 1.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, this Item includes a variety of expenses that would not assume their own numbers within the numeniration of the Estimates. They are lumped together because they cover a mixture of requirements. That is why they become Other Operating Expenses. They include write-off of debts, legal fees, compensation payments, contracted services payments, bank service commissions and charges which arise from the total expenditure of the Ministry as a whole. The betting services cannot be placed under any particular Item. Boards and Committee--- 2058 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES July 12, 2006
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir.
Mr. Ojode, please, give the Minister a chance to explain first and then I will give you a chance to interrogate him.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, it also includes Boards and Committees expenses, State hospitality cost and certain confidential expenditures like security operations, for example, an operation that we are undertaking in Marsabit. We undertake some operations in-between districts, particularly the districts which border Pokot where there is cattle rustling. These are the events which you cannot plan for. This Item meets all those contingencies.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I am not satisfied with the answer given by the Minister. He has been meandering. He has said that this Head covers debts and confidential expenses. Would I be in order to ask him to tell us how much money is going to be used to pay debts and how much is going to be used on confidential security matters? As you can see, last year alone, this House approved Kshs500 million under this Item. This year, the Minister has requested for Kshs255 million. In the subsequent years, he requires us to approve Kshs265 million and Kshs275 million respectively. Would I be in order to ask him to give us the breakdown?
Mr. Ojode, you asked the Minister to state what "Other Operating Expenses" stand for. I do not remember him mentioning anything to do with secret security.
No, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir. He did. He said "confidential expenses".
Hon. Members, please if you want to get information get it because that is what he has to give us and that is what he has done. So, let me give the next chance to hon. Billow.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir. If you look at the financial statistical code that they published when they came up with this new system, some of the expenses which the Minister has mentioned now as "Other Operating Expenses" have got sub-heads and items that we can use, like legal expenses and some of the ones that he mentioned. What we want is for him to retain those ones which he believes are classified and should not be disclosed but to put all the other ones separately because that Kshs255 million is only for headquarters. If you add all of them within the Office of the President Vote it amounts to Kshs535 million classified as "Other Operating Expenses". That is for all the other departments like administration, field services, police and so on. So, our concern is that there are some items there like legal expenses, writing off debts and others which can actually be itemised separately and do not have to be put together with this. That is our concern.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, if you remember, these Estimate books used to comprise of a number of huge volumes which sometimes were impossible to bring to this House while carrying with your hands. So, there was the issue of trying to reduce those volumes. Consequently, if you insist on Items appearing, then we are going back to square one. Now, in this particular case, I explained about the details. The debt charges are here. Contracted services, that is cleaning services, are there. Surely, we are not expected to stay in offices which are not cleaned. The legal fees and arbitration compensation payments are also there. I also talked about security operations which just come out of the blues. Like now if we send the General Service Unit (GSU) out, how will they move to various places at the border? We have to cater for this eventuality which is very difficult to estimate because we do not pray that events take place so that we spend the money. We July 12, 2006 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 2059 would rather save it. So, these are the details. Now, if every Item is put in that book, it will be very voluminous.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir.
Order, hon. Members! I think we have to move on. Mr. Minister, I think you understand the concern of the hon. Members that they would like to see a breakdown of these figures and I think it will be useful for you to come with a different piece of paper to ensure that hon. Members are satisfied. Let me dispose of this Item since you already know, in any case, what it represents and whatever is for emergency security services, you leave it at that but you can bring the others along. I think we should dispose of this Item and go ahead.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, let me clarify. I was talking about these Items as they arise from the main book but we have this other book which is for district allocations. Now, it all depends on which book the Questioner wants me to refer to. We have one which mentions every district but there are certain Items which remain at the headquarters because the services are initiated there and cannot be allocated to districts. Who will know whether cattle rustling is going to take place in Samburu, Laikipia or Turkana?
Minister, we have to dispose of these Items.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, because it appears in every Ministry, it is important we finish it so that we do not repeat it in subsequent Ministries. My concern is not about what the Minister said. If you just look at the next Item you will find that, for example, Specialised Materials and Supplies has only been allocated Kshs4.7 million. Rentals has been allocated Kshs900,000. So, my question is: If the analysis he has, has got items which are more than say these figures which are here, then those ones deserve to be here and this Kshs900,000 and Kshs4.7 million should be the ones who should be here because they are much smaller. I think that is what we are saying. Could the Minister table for us that breakdown so that we can look at it?
Hon. Members, I think I have said that if you want a further breakdown you can always get it since it is available. Let us dispose of this Item. Let me put the Question.
(Mr. M'Mukindia); Hon. Biwott, I think you have a problem. We are on Recurrent Expenditure Volume 1, R01-R16. Let us dispose of this Item.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, the point that the Minister did not quite get is that there are far too many Items which are here which concern very little figures. When he says that some of these will include legal and arbitration charges but the exact amounts are not disclosed, I think our worry is that by putting the Question, we are merely going to pass things which we have not been explained about. I think the Minister should undertake to table these details. We are ready to look through them.
Mr. Minister, are you going to table the details of this Item? The points that the hon. Members are putting to you are quite valid.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, the brief I have in terms of analysis of this Item "Other Operating Expenses" is this one I am holding. If you want, we will discuss it and then I will table it. It can be seen but if you insist that I should supply the House with a copy, I will say I cannot because this is the only copy I have. I can give details. 2060 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES July 12, 2006
No! On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman.
Order, Mr. Minister! We are not saying you have to do it right now. You can do it later. Bring the details later to the House. Let me now put the Question.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir.
Order, hon. Members! We are in the Committee Stage and we must move. Let me now put the Question. Some of these points of order are frivolous.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir!
Order, hon. Members! I think we have to dispose of the business of this House in a way that is respectable to us and this House. We can either approve or disprove it. That is not for me to say; it is for you to say. However, can we do it in a manner that is respectable? Let us also ensure that we do not take too much time on an Item. Let me put the Question and if you approve it fine and if you do not, we just move ahead.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir. This is, probably, the most important job that we, as hon. Members, ought to do for this country. This is how---
Order! Mr. Sungu, what is your point of order?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I still have a query I want to ask the Minister and yet, you want to put the Question.
Mr. Sungu, we cannot take the whole day on one Item. What is your question?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I have a query on page three of the Printed Estimates, Head No.001, Sub-Head 000, Item No.3110700, Purchase of Vehicles and other Transport Equipment. The Minister for Finance, in his Budget Speech, said that Ministers would surrender some of their official vehicles. Why is it necessary to spend Kshs50 million to buy new vehicles when there are excess vehicles in the Government?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I want to clarify this issue. Yesterday---
We have disposed of that Item. Could you, please, address the Item raised by Mr. Sungu? Let us move forward, please.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I thought we were still on the Item that Mr. Billow raised.
Order, Mr. Minister! We are on Item No.3110700, please.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, on this Item, we have no particular supplier other than the one who will meet the conditions of the tender. We want vehicles which are agreeable with the state of our roads. If anyone wants to know more, there will be tenders for those vehicles.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir. You realise that we have three versions of the Estimates Books in this House. There is a book I have seen the Minister using, which is summarising expenditure on the Office of the President. The explanation on the vehicles as given by the Minister was good. I would like him to take us through those items on that same page because the expenditures seem not add up. As for the Operating Expenses amount to Kshs255,500,000. These are explained as banking services, the contracted cards and the legal fees. It is important for this House to understand these expenditures.
Mr. July 12, 2006 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 2061 Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, yesterday, 220 of these books were put in the pigeon holes---
We have them!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, the details on the breakdown of the Kshs255,500,000, for example, are all indicated. I can respond to questions, but for hon. Members to require me to go through those figures, I think it is unfair.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir---
Order, Mr. Kipchumba! Let us cool down. First of all, let us get the right books for this purpose. Hon. Members should know that the primary book we are looking at this moment is the Printed Estimates. If the Minister wishes to give you additional information through other detailed manuals, it is up to him to explain. Could I, therefore, ask him to, please, start with the Printed Estimates that every hon. Member has, so that we can operate from the same level? If he uses other books that he has, he will confuse us.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I used this other book to find the details which constitute the Item that was the subject of discussion. So, I have not abandoned the original Printed Estimates. All I am saying is that yesterday, the books that contain the details of what is being asked here were given to hon. Members.
Hon. Members, I am trying to find out the details the Minister is talking about.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, go to page two of the Printed Estimates and check the last Item.
Mr. Michuki, even I cannot get the details on this Item. Hon. Members, let us be on the same footing. On the second publication, which is the light blue book, on page two, under Item No.2211300, Other Operating Expenses, we have the total at the top and everything following is the breakdown of the same amount. So, what hon. Members are saying is that these figures do not add up.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, these figures do add up. Mr. Billow, if you want me to lend you a calculator, you will see they add up.
Mr. Michuki, there is an Item that is not clear to hon. Members. Mr. Obwocha, could you, please, throw some light on this issue?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I think we want to help Parliament to proceed. We are asking our colleagues to ask a question in a cool manner, show the figure they want and we will give them a breakdown. This is the manner in which we want to proceed. For example, on the question they have asked about the Kshs255,500,000, in the main Printed Estimates, it is Item 2211300.
They do not add up! This is simple mathematics!
Hold your horses! The breakdown on this is on pages one and two listed Item by Item adding up to page two where it is Kshs255,500,000. That is the manner in which we want to proceed.
And page two?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, on page two, it is listed as Item No.2211300. It amounts to Kshs255,500,000. The composition of that starts from page one. If you look at the figures that are 2062 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES July 12, 2006 in bold, they are listed as follows: Personal allowances paid, Kshs7 million; Kshs36 million; Kshs76 million; Kshs8 million; Kshs35 million; Kshs15 million; Kshs16 million and Kshs20 million and so on. If we add up these, they all add up to the total given.
Hon. Members I have now to dispose of this Question because we are running out of time. SUB-VOTE 010- GENERAL ADMINISTRATION AND PLANNING
Hon. Members there are not enough Members requesting a division. So, the Ayes have it!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, could the Minister explain to us Head 797, Item 2220200 on page 16? You will find that last year alone we approved Kshs285 million under this Item. Today, he requires Kshs125 million for "routine maintenance". What is this routine maintenance?
I referred to page 16, Head 797.
Okay, Mr. Minister, look at page 16 of the Recurrent Estimates. Head 797, Item 2220200 "Routine Maintenance - Other Assets".
It is not in the book we have!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, I have now seen the details in the other book. So, forget about my query!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I wish the hon. Members on the Government side could consult quietly. Let us refer to the same page 16, Head 797. I want to know what proposals the Minister has for the staff of the National Agency for Campaign Against Drug Abuse (NACADA). He has not provided salaries for the staff of this organisation as he has done for staff in other departments. Could he tell us how they will be paid?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, NACADA was a department under this Ministry. However, it has now been transformed into a parastatal. The staff required will be seconded from Ministries where they earn their salaries. For example, there is the Ministry of Health and others which are involved. So, this is not an oversight.
July 12, 2006 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 2063
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, on page 11, Head 606; Immigration and Registration of Persons, I notice that in 2005/2006 Estimates were provided. However, that is not the case in this financial year because I cannot see any estimates being provided during this financial year. What could be the reason?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not know how to deal with this matter. Yesterday, as I addressed this House, I said that the Department of Immigration and Registration of Persons---
Mr. Minister, we are aware of that and the answer is obvious. So, allow us to move on.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, with regard to Head 011, Item 2211000; Specialised Materials and Supplies, last year there was a provision of Kshs109,279,020. This time round the Minister is asking for Kshs214 million. Can we be told what these Specialised Materials and Supplies are?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, those are security items.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir. It is this House that is required to scrutinize the itemized expenditures of this Ministry. Is he in order to hide under the cover of national security as he often does? In the case of financial expenditure, he should give us the breakdown.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, when a Head of an estimate---
Address the Chair!
When a Head of an estimate is analyzed as much as it has been analyzed here, with all these breakdowns and details, how far could we go in this book?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, in light of the previous experience about the so-called security items, this House resolved that Members need to be fully satisfied that this is not just another Anglo Leasing project and that, the Government is not just using this kind of Item to hide other shady deals. Therefore, under the Constitution, the House is fully entitled to be informed of what those items are. We demand that the Minister does so.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, on page 24, Head 281, Item 3111000 - Purchase of Specialised Plant Equipment and Machinery, it is important for us to appreciate that, 2064 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES July 12, 2006 that is under something called "Rapid Deployment Unit" at the Headquarters. Earlier on, we passed an Item where the Minister said it was for another expenditure in Marsabit and such like places. The Rapid Deployment Unit was allocated Kshs7 million last year and this time, they are asking for Kshs273 million. What is it that they hope to rapidly deploy?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, do I need to explain what rapid response is? You respond rapidly!
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir. On page three, Head 279, Item 3110700 - Purchase of Vehicles, Kshs100 million has been allocated. When the Budget was read by the Minister, he was categorical that there would be no purchase of vehicles. Assuming that those vehicles are for security and they have decided to purchase them, could the Minister, in accordance with the financial regulations, tell us how many vehicles he is purchasing with that money? That is a financial requirement. He must tell us the number and type of vehicles to be purchased.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, that has to do with vehicles, and Mr. Billow knows about it. It will depend on the price at the time of purchase. I always move with my calculator and there is no way I can tell you the price. That is because I will buy the vehicles according to the price quoted in the tender.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, on page 25, Item No.2211000, Specialised Materials and Supplies, I notice that last year Kshs70 million was allocated for these purposes. However, the same figure is shown for the same Item yet again. Could the Minister explain what these specialised materials and supplies are? I hope it is not a question of national security this time.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, even the gallant Maj-General here knows that a specialised equipment is a specialised equipment.
July 12, 2006 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 2065
Hon. Members, before we move on to the next Sub-Vote, I must emphasis that we must dispose of this business. SUB-VOTE 016 - IMMIGRATION
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir. We are dealing with a very serious matter. It appears that the Chair is taking the Opposition side completely for granted. There is no point for us to be here. However, it is our responsibility to scrutinise the expenditure, but the Chair is denying us that opportunity. It appears as if the Chair is allowing "voting machines" on the Government side to raise whatever they want and we, on this side, just rubber- stamp it. We are not prepared to be used as rubber-stamps!
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir. Is it in order for the hon. Member who confuses this business for the World Cup adverts, to insult an entire side of the House?
Order! Hon. Members. I really ought to tell Mr. Raila that he is imputing improper motives on the part of the Chair, and that is not acceptable. The fact of the matter is that there is business to be done. As I said earlier, being the Chair of this Committee, we have to conduct this business in a way that shows decorum and respect for one another. Once the Question has been put, that is it and we move on!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, we have respect for your ruling. But as much as we understand that the rules require us to either say "yes" or "no", I think it is important for you to give us time to raise fundamental issues. We do not want this House to be accused of rubber-stamping things we do not understand. When you read out ten Heads at once, how are we expected to raise queries? If you are not going to give us time to understand the issues, you had better just ask us to say "yes" or "no" for the whole Vote. There is no point going through ten Heads at once. This is a joke. It is ridiculing the House!
Order! Let me answer hon. Billow first. As you all know, we have had the Printed Estimates for quite a long time. This is not the time to read them.
We are not reading!
You need to have looked at the Printed Estimates, checked on them and be ready to raise the questions. You knew that we have been discussing the Vote of the Ministry for the last two days, therefore, ignorance is no excuse at this point in time. Therefore, we will move on!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, with all due respect, this is an issue of 2066 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES July 12, 2006 concern. We might be the minority on this side, but we deserve to be heard. We demand that right! When the Minister is being queried on what he wants to use taxpayers' money on, he stands up and says: "A specialized equipment is a specialized equipment". I think that is the lowest that this Parliament can get to.
Hon. Midiwo, I will take your point. I also have to mention to you that, that question has already been decided on and we cannot go back to it. In any case, if that is all the Minister has to tell you, no matter how long you grill him, what else can he tell you? SUB-VOTE 017 - POLICE DEPARTMENT
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, on page 38, under Head 094, on the second last Item, a whopping Kshs200 million has been allocated for the purchase of specialized plant, equipment and machinery for the Presidential Escort. What specialized plant, equipment and machinery is the Presidential Escort purchasing? What plant is that? It is a shame! As far as I know, these are policemen on motorbikes! What specialized equipment do they need?
They are also specialized!
Order! Let us pay attention!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, the amounts which have just been queried are to purchase Information and Communication Technology (ICT) networking communication equipment, including their installation for the Presidential Escort Unit. I said in my speech yesterday that those equipment that are in use now do not have spare parts. Therefore, it is very important for that communication equipment to be kept as efficient as possible.
What are they for? Radio calls?
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir. Could the Minister explain to the House why each police department has a provision for specialized equipment or materials? The Minister should explain to us so that we do not have to ask the same question for each department. The cost of the specialized materials is Kshs1.2 billion. Let him explain to us what these specialized items in every police department are.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I have actually stated in this House many times before that this nation must take care of itself. If you want to tell the world the details of every security equipment that we have, do not do that through me!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, we are all concerned about the security of the Head of State. That fact is without question. However, we are talking about a Government which is on record as having said that it wants to reduce costs. As a result of that new policy, Cabinet Ministers have been deprived of escort vehicles. But here is a case where, while we are doing that---
Mr. Raila, please, ask a question pertaining to this specific Item because we are going through the Vote, Item by Item.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I am saying that the Presidential Escort Unit is currently heavily furnished with very many vehicles. Why is it necessary, in the face of declared frugality, to provide Kshs200 million just for the Presidential Escort Unit? Could the Minister be specific? There are no specialised security items for Presidential Escort which an July 12, 2006 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 2067 enemy of this country would not know.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir. Mr. Raila is seeking to be President. If he went to Gambia, he knows that the President of that country has two big armoured limousines.
What are you saying that for?
I am telling him because he wants to become President!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I am seeking your protection.
Order! Order, everybody! Mr. Obwocha, we have heard you.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, on page 40, under Head 097, Police Dog Unit, there is an Item for purchase of certified seeds, breeding stock and live animals under which the Ministry is
requesting for a paltry Kshs6.1 million. We recently saw some hybrid dogs brought into the country by some strange people. Is this money enough?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, it is true. We have actually become a centre for supply of police dogs. It is becoming very big business. This is being developed. Consequently, we need the seeds.
Order! Order! Hon. Members, I wish to inform the House that today being a Committee of Supply day, the House sits all the way to 7.00 p.m. We, really, need to move fast because, in the next 30 minutes, we need to dispose of a lot of business.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order No.142, an amount of Kshs20 be reduced from the total sum of Kshs14,359,920,980 to be appropriated to Vote 01, Ministry of State, Provincial Administration and Internal Security; and that the said amount be reduced from Recurrent Vote, Sub Vote 017, Head 107, Item 3110800. Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I wish to move a reduction of £1 under Head 107 - Police Airwing. My reason for doing this is because Kshs400 million has been provided for the purpose of overhauling vehicles, and the Minister wants us to approve it. That is under Police Airwing. Let the Minister tell us how many vehicles are supposed to be overhauled and how much it will cost him because I would rather advise him to go for new vehicles. There is no need for him to ask us to approve Kshs400 million for the purpose of overhauling two or three vehicles. Could the Minister explain to the House why he wants us to give him Kshs400 million to overhaul vehicles? I beg to move.
Hon. Members, let me first explain this. Indeed, hon. Ojode gave notice of this Motion to reduce the Item by £1, as allowed by our Standing Order, No.142. I do not think there is need for us to debate on it. It is stated, quite 2068 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES July 12, 2006 clearly that--- However, I will give Mr. Billow five minutes, then we move on.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I rise to second the Motion. We have to express our displeasure as strongly as we can, against this Ministry and the way money has been allocated. Figures have been hidden and so much money is allocated to this Vote, that we have a good reason to believe that the money is intended to finance other programmes. We cannot allow the expenditure of Kshs400 million for overhaul of aircraft when the Police Commissioner himself announced that he would not approve the overhaul of the aircraft in South Africa. Where will the Kshs400 million allocated for the purpose go? Will it go into the pockets of Ministers or organisations? We cannot allow that and I second the proposal, so as to punish the Minister in charge of this Ministry, by deducting £1 from the Vote. I beg to second.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker. It is sad that passing of this Vote is being used as a political contest. If you look at the Vote Head, the Police Airwing, Overhaul of Vehicles and Other Transport Equipment, it will not take too much thinking to understand that there are other transport equipment related to the Airwing, and not only the helicopters. We are looking at Estimates. However, money will be used as it is needed. I want to urge hon. Members to pass this Vote. Since it appears as if hon. Members do not understand or appreciate security issues, their personal bodyguards, who are not a requirment of the law should be withdrawn.
There will be no more debate at this point. I am discouraged, especially by Mr. Billow, who I have just given a chance to speak. How can you stand again and speak without permission from the Chair?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I have been trying to catch your eye. There is a point that Ms. Karua has raised and I want to correct it. She said that personal bodyguards of hon. Members are not provided for in the law. If you look at the Parliamentary Service Commission Act and the provisions by the Cockar Report, it is a right and an entitlement to all Members of Parliament!
July 12, 2006 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 2069 SUB-VOTE 019 - GENERAL SERVICE UNIT
Hon. Members, we have now finished with the Recurrent Expenditure. We will move on to the Development Expenditure. We are considering Development Expenditure from pages one to 59. VOTE D01 - DEVELOPMENT EXPENDITURE SUB-VOTE 010 - GENERAL ADMINSTRATION AND PLANNING
Order, hon. Members! Please, leave quietly if you are leaving!
Where are they going? There are no World Cup matches!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, on page two, Head 001, Item 3110300 - Refurbishment of Buildings - I would like to get a clarification from the Minister. Last year, under that Item, we gave him Kshs60 million. This year, he is requesting for Kshs30 million. But, surprisingly, next year, he will be requesting Kshs140 million. It is not very clear! Could the Minister explain?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I just wanted to get a clarification from the Minister on this. You can see that last year, there was Kshs60 million and this year it is Kshs30 million. Surprisingly, the year after, he will be seeking Kshs140 million on the same item of refurbishment of buildings. It is not very clear, granted that Harambee House is one of the worst buildings; lifts do not work, it stinks and so on.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, the Item is a reduced Item because quite a bit of renovations have been carried out and we are scaling down on expenditure as I have been quite rightly advised by the Minister for Finance. But I agree with the hon. Member that the lifts, which are now being addressed, require very urgent action.
2070 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES July 12, 2006 SUB-VOTE 011 - FIELD ADMINISTRATION SERVICES
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I wish the Government side could be a bit more patient. We came here to work and everybody must be ready to work, not just to shout "Aye"!
On Head 006, the first Item is construction of buildings and the second one is refurbishment of buildings. Could we get an indication from the Minister which district it is that the Kshs36 million will go to? Is it the old or the new ones like mine?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, we have, as of now, 71 working districts.
Order, Mr. Minister! The question was very specific. Could you please, quickly deal with it and we move on?
The money will be used throughout all districts.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, on this Head, the Government is asking for Kshs200 million for purchase of office furniture and rehabilitation of plant and equipment. We reported here early this year through the Public Accounts Committee, that there is equipment that have been provided to the Government Printer about eight years ago which have not even been installed and commissioned. Why are we spending another Kshs200 million buying new furniture and equipment?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, the equipment is being installed. However, you must remember that when you were in the previous Government, you vandalised everything which we are now replacing.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, the Government Printer has always July 12, 2006 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 2071 existed. Could the Minister explain to us whether he is going to put up another building at a cost of Kshs40 million? We know that the building that houses the Government Printer is still there. Is he proposing to relocate to another place or what is he asking the Kshs40 million for?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, we are not relocating, but I hope that the hon. Member has visited the area. The buildings are all dilapidated.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I want to get a clarification on Item 3110100 - Purchase of Buildings. Could the Minister categorically tell us which buildings have been purchased? We are aware that the CID Headquarters is under construction and they have moved to a new building. He should be very specific.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, these are residential buildings.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, on Head 085 - Office of the Commissioner, there is an Item on Construction of Buildings. When the Minister was moving the Vote, he mentioned that Kshs960 million is meant for the construction of the Forensic Science Laboratory. The contract for the Forensic Science Laboratory has yet to be cancelled. Is this money going to be paid to the same contractors or is the Minister going to award a new contract after he has verified and cancelled the old contract in which billions of shillings are at stake?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, if the hon. Member wants to micro-manage the Government, then he had better come to my office.
SUB-VOTE 019 - GENERAL SERVICE UNIT 2072 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES July 12, 2006
Mr. Temporary Deputy Chairman, Sir, I beg to move that the Committee doth report to the House its consideration of the Resolution and its approval of the same without amendment.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee has considered the Resolution that a sum not exceeding Kshs14,359,920,980 be issued from the Consolidated Fund to complete the sum necessary to meet expenditure during the year ending 30th June, 2007 in respect of Vote 01 - Ministry of State for Administration and National Security, and has approved the same without amendment.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution.
(Ms. Karua) seconded.
Hon. Members, it is now time for the interruption of business. The House is, therefore, adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday, 13th July, at July 12, 2006 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 2073 2.30 p.m. The House rose at 6.55 p.m.