Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to give notice of the following Motion: - THAT, aware of the need for reforms in all Government institutions, including the Cabinet, in order to enhance good governance; this House urges the Government to facilitate induction and training on financial and resource management for all Ministers, Assistant and other Constitutional office holders.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to give notice of the following two Motions: - THAT, being aware of the serious problems of squatters and landlessness in Kenya today and lack of a clear policy and legal framework to deal with the same; considering the efforts made by the Government so far in settling some squatters on various farms in certain parts of the country without a clear criteria or structure to guide process; appreciating the need to establish a Fund to facilitate continuous squatter settlement process with proper structures and criteria for identification of genuine squatters countrywide and suitable land for acquisition
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to give notice of the following Motion:- THAT, this House adopts the Report of the joint committee on Finance, Planning and Trade and the Budget Committee on the discrepancies in the Supplementary Estimates for the Financial 2008/2009 laid on the Table of the House on Wednesday, 13th May, 2009.
asked the Minister for Regional Development Authorities:-
(a) what measures he is taking to ensure that Emuhaya District benefits from the second phase of the Lake Victoria Environmental Management Programme which was approved by the World Bank; and,
(b) what the Ministryâs plans are to promote fish farming and horticultural programmes in the district.
Order, hon. Members. I am made to understand now that there is a letter from this Ministry seeking to have this Question deferred to another date. Under normal circumstances, the Ministry should have done this letter much earlier so that this Question would not have appeared on the Order Paper today. This means the Ministry did not do its job right. This is a belated request. I want to reiterate again that the Standing Orders have changed since the beginning of the Session. The Standing Orders take very grave view of both Members of Parliament who fail to appear to ask their Questions and Ministers who are also not in a position to answer their Questions when they appear on the Order Paper. This information should be delivered very specifically to the Ministry in question. This is not something that the Chair will entertain again. The Chair, as we have said before, will implement and enforce the provisions of the Standing Orders to the letter. It is considered disorderly for a Minister not to be available or to be around with an answer when the Question appears on the Order Paper. Nonetheless, I will allow this Question to appear again on the Order Paper on Wednesday, next week. Could somebody from the Government side give an undertaking that this information will be communicated to the Minister concerned?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, on behalf of the Government, I will take responsibility to communicate to the Minister. We also appreciate that the Standing Orders are new and most hon. Members have not been up to speed with them. Nonetheless, I will ensure that the Government takes this House very seriously.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Mr. Omingo is laughing but I am not laughing because this is not the first time that they are failing to answer this Question. It was on the Order Paper yesterday. The Chair ordered it, and notice was put under Standing Order No.97 that if this persists, he would find the Minister out of order. That is what the Chair said. Today, again, you are giving them indulgence for the second time. What happens if they do it again? I am not challenging your ruling but I want it to be on record that if this Minister does not answer this Question, the next time it is in the Order Paper, you should name him under Standing Order No.98. They must take this House seriously. We are not joking.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is the Assistant Minister in order to say that he is responding on behalf of the Government? I thought that we are all in the Government. He is responding on behalf of the Executive.
Mr. Assistant Minister, please, answer the question by Mrs. Noor.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, as she has said, that is correct.
So you are responding on behalf of the Executive?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, yes I am.
Yes, indeed, Mr. Mungatana, as you have said, the Chair will not hesitate to enforce the Standing Orders to the letter. Indeed, if the Minister fails
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. This House is for the welfare of society and the just governance of men. I also seek the indulgence of the Chair that the same consequences that will apply to a Minister who is not here to answer a Question be applied to an hon. Member who is not here to ask his Question at the required time.
Next Question, Mr. Lekuton!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I need to communicate to the Chair that Mr. Lekuton has some pressing issues to deal with in his constituency and he has requested that this Question be deferred until next week.
Mr. Letimalo, the hon. Member should not wait until the Question has appeared on the Order Paper for him to seek deferment of the same. Indeed, at the beginning of the week, you are supplied with a copy of all the Questions and the dates they will appear on the Order Paper. Hon. Members are required to inform the Clerk in advance so that these Questions do not appear on the Order Paper. Under the circumstances, yes, the Chair will also enforce the provisions of the Standing Orders against hon. Members as much as it will enforce on the Executive.
asked the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Local Government when the family of the late Mrs. Jenipher Pamela Awuor Otieno (Staff No.SO5-71126), a former Assistant Welfare Officer with the City Council of Nairobi, who died in 2002, would be paid her terminal dues.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it appears like a precedence has been set. I seek the indulgence of the House to communicate the wrath of the Chair and the displeasure of the House to the Minister concerned.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, ordinarily, when a Minister is not in, there is a Leader of Government Business to take over. When the Leader of Government Business is not there, there is the First Deputy and Second Deputy Leader of Government
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, just to show you how this Government is not serious, there is not a single Minister in the House. What we are seeing todays are monitors and not the prefects!
But we are here!
You are not a Minister! You are just a monitor!
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The Standing Orders are very clear on the definition of a Minister. Could he withdraw and apologize because we are here?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the reason why they are Assistant Ministers is for them to respond to Questions and issues, in the event that the Ministers are not around. In essence, these Assistant Ministers have no jobs. That is why I am calling them monitors!
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Backbenchers are insulting us and that is not acceptable! Secondly, we are Ministers. As a Member of the Government, I am very much aware that the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Local Government has been overseas. He has just returned to a new organizational structure, including the Assistant Minister. Have some grace and accept that we are not angels but we are performing. For your information, hon. Mungatana, we are not tired old men. I am a woman, spiritually filled, anointed and God fearing. I am also still very young and strong. Watch your words!
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I urge the hon. Member, who has just spoken, to be more frequent in this House. This House has in the immediate past sitting said that no Member shall intimidate another Member. The ruling was very clear. In fact, Mr. Ojode was forced by the Chair to withdraw the remarks he had made against another hon. Member. Is she intimidating me with spirituality?
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I think this House needs to be treated a little bit more seriously. I do not know the definition of âTomâ. I do not know what category or which bracket âTomâ stands for. Since the Speaker himself unclogged the business of this House and Mr. Mungatana and my fellow colleagues on the other side wanted to transact business, I wonder why they want you to go back to your ruling and hang on to particular
Order, hon. Members! For the benefit of the back-benchers and every other Member of Parliament, the interpretation of the Standing Orders say that a Minister includes the President, the Vice-President, the Prime Minister, Ministers, Assistant Ministers and other ex officio Members of the House. So, indeed the Assistant Ministers are Ministers. As for the Question No.026, I will defer it to next week because the Minister had written to the National Assembly on 8th May, 2009 informing us that he will not be in to answer this Question and requested that it be deferred. The fact that it appears on the Order Paper is not the Ministerâs mistake but our own internal arrangement at the National Assembly. So, the Question is deferred.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Order! Hon. Members, I will repeat this again. We need to take the business of the House very seriously.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. As much as I would not want to challenge your ruling on deferring that Question - I stand to be corrected if I misunderstood you - the reason for deferring that Question is because the Minister had written to the Speaker indicating that he will be out of the country and so in your assessment, he could not be around. There was a Cabinet reshuffle last week and my friend, Mr. Nguyai, was appointed the Assistant Minister in this Ministry and I have seen him loitering around. Is it in order for you to defer the Question when there is somebody else who can answer it? We are all mortal.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. We have pleaded with our fellow colleagues to treat this House with the due decorum that it deserves. âLoiteringâ, for heavens sake is not Parliamentary language. Can he withdraw and apologize?
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Order, Mr. K. Kilonzo! Mr. Linturi, the word âloiteringâ is unparliamentary. Hon. Members and Ministers do not loiter around. Could you withdraw?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, may I clarify that I saw him wandering around.
Order! Order, Mr. Linturi! This is not a laughing matter. This is not a comedy. Withdraw the word âloiteringâ.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I really want to do it but which word would I use here?
You saw the Assistant Minister in the precincts of Parliament.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I saw the Assistant Minister in the precincts of Parliament!
You did not see him loitering.
I did not see him loitering.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to seek your clarification on whether the hon. Member actually met the Chairâs demand to withdraw and apologize for that language.
Indeed he has not met my demand. Please, withdraw and apologize. There is a standard procedure for doing that.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have said that I saw the Assistant Minister within the precincts of Parliament and I withdraw the words âloiteringâ and âwanderingâ.
Let us proceed because he has withdrawn.
asked the Minister for Lands:- (a) why land owners at Kinale Settlement Scheme have not been able to access Green Cards for their parcels of land since 1988; and, (b) what immediate steps the Minister is taking to allow the land owners to enjoy their land rights.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
(a) Yes, land owners had access to Green Cards in respect to their land until 2002 when the same was stopped. Anomalies such as double allocation, forgeries, encroachment on catchment areas as well as land disputes informed the decision to recall Green Cards. Recalling of Green Cards was aimed at stopping any land transaction until the outstanding issues are settled.
(b) A task force was established in 2007 to resolve the outstanding issues by identifying problematic areas. It is envisaged that the Taskforce will complete the assignment and give a final report during the 2009/2010 Financial Year. The delay in completing the assignment was occasioned by insufficient funds during the 2008/2009 Financial Year.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, while I note the effort the Assistant Minister has put in, in reply to this Question, I wish to note that the land owners in Kinale Settlement Scheme were given the land in 1988 and up to now, they have not been able to enjoy land rights for 21 years. This is a very serious matter and we have about 30,000 people on that scheme. Today, Kinale is a division and the land owners are not able to effect any land sales, acquire any credit facilities from a bank and cannot even be productive on those pieces of land.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I sympathize with the Questioner but since there is a task force in place, there is very little this Ministry can do because what happened was double allocation. However, the issue of land grabbing needs to be curbed.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, when will the Ministry computerize their systems because the issue of double allocations should be something of the past when they computerize?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, that is a noble idea and we are also in the process of trying to seek for funds to ensure that we computerize. That is an issue that is in the process.
Order, Mr. Assistant Minister! When?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we have made our proposal and we intend to put it in the Budget for the Financial Year, 2009/2010.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, is the Assistant Minister aware that without the Green Card even if you have a title deed, you cannot borrow money on it and you cannot even get an official search. So, the title deed is as good as useless. You have continued to issue title deeds without the Green Card. You have issued some in my constituency including places like Wehoya Farm, Bikeke Farm and Masaba Farm and farmers think that the title deeds are fake. What are you doing to ensure that these title deeds mean anything to those farmers?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I think one of the answers is computerization which is in the process. We shall ensure that we get money this Financial Year so that we can computerize. If that is done, then this will be an issue of the past.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, is the Assistant Minister aware that there is rampant corruption in the Ministry and that is why our people are not able to access title deeds easily?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, do I have to answer that Question because if there is corruption, there are some law enforcement agencies to work on such issues!
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Yes, last question on that issue, Mr. Njuguna!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, as I register my appreciation for the continued reply to this Question, the Assistant Minister has indicated that he allocated some money in 2007. Could he indicate how much was allocated to start the whole operation? He has also indicated that in the 2008/2009 Budget, he has allocated some money to finalize the whole thing. How much was set aside for the exercise? To conclude, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, they have taken a period of three years to finalize this issue. It is making the entire community suffer and, therefore, it should be addressed properly. Could he also consider reducing that period from three years to, probably, six months, so that the redundancy and despondency in that area could be curtailed?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, assuming that the Budget will come in June, once we get sufficient funds, I want to promise the Questioner that we will actually finalize that matter. That is because where we have reached, I believe the Task Force is just about to complete its Report. But since we do not have money now, we cannot do it.
Next Question, Dr. Eseli Simiyu!
asked the Minister for Transport to clarify whether Kenya Railways Corporation pay Fuel Levy and, if so, state what measures the Government has taken to apply the funds to improve railway transport.
Where is the Minister for Transport?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am sorry to seek the indulgence of the House that this Question be given the consideration on the same lines.
I promise that when you direct the Question to be answered, it shall be answered.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. While I appreciate the collective responsibility on the part of the Government, this Government must also respect the pecking order. We have a full Minister in the House. Why is the Assistant Minister still continuing to purport to be representing the Leader of Government Business?
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, when I see a young parliamentarian hanging on to the pecking order, I think it hurts. You have just ruled, a while ago, that the Minister is a Minister, regardless of the height, age or whatever it is! A Minister is a Minister and we are perfectly in order to transact the business of the House. I wish we could continue with the business of the House.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The Chair has ruled in the past when I was present in this House that if a full Minister or a senior Minister is present in the House, an Assistant Minister should not and cannot purport to represent the Government!
Order! Order, hon. Members! Whereas it is---
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I really sympathize with the Front Bench, and I am speaking from experience because I have sat there.
But, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the way you vilified those who have not appeared, why have you not congratulated, at least, the first one to be around to answer the Questions?
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Now, seriously, coming to this matter again, about hon. Omingo holding brief for the Government, he did not give a reason why the Minister and Assistant Minister are not there, and why no written communication has been given about this matter.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I think you should actually take some measures in this House. There is something wrong somewhere. There is a whole system that is wrong and we are saying that we are not joking! Something is wrong! The Government needs to organize itself! Is it in order for him to just ask that this Question be deferred to another date without even bothering to give a small explanation?
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Order, hon. Omingo! It is disorderly for a Minister to fail to have an answer when the matter appears on the Order Paper. Those are the sentiments that are being expressed by the Back Bench now!!
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
What is your point of order?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Minister for Transport is out of the country on official duty.
What about the Assistant Minister?
He is also away on official duty.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, protect me from the vultures!
Order, hon. Midiwo! Order!
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. You can see it has taken us over 35 minutes on this very issue. It is just about time we stop taking it casually because what it means is that the House has now started feeling the effect of the absence of the Leader of Government Business!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the fact that the acting Leader of Government Business is the Speaker, is now confirming the wisdom of the principle of separation of powers. Now that the head of the Legislature is attempting to discharge the duties of the Executive, it is now not possible and, therefore, the Chair must retreat and find a firm solution to the need for us to have a Leader of Government Business.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. With all due respect to Dr. Khalwale, we must respect the ruling of the Speaker. That is because he never said that he was the Leader of Government Business. In any case, he has pointed out that the Whips shall act until such a time that there is an agreement on this issue.
But they have not agreed!
That may be true but, hon. Member, I want to plead with you that we are trying to find a way out. You know these issues of the Coalition. They will find a solution.
Order! Indeed, yes, the Chair did not rule that the Chair or the Speaker is the Leader of Government Business in the House. There is no way the Speaker can be the Leader of Government Business in the House because he is not a part of the Government. The Speaker ruled that the Speaker will chair the House Business Committee so that Parliament can operate. In the absence of the Speaker, the Deputy Speaker will chair. When a Minister is out of the country, I think it is only fair that he or she informs the House or the Speaker, so that Questions can be deferred to such a time when they will be around to answer them. The fact that these Questions are appearing on the Order Paper is an indication that the Ministers did not do their job right. But I will, nonetheless, say that, as from tomorrow, the Chair is going to implement and enforce the rules of the House â the Standing Orders â to the letter! To the letter, indeed!
So, it is time the Government side took its business seriously and the Back Benchers should also make sure that they are available to ask the Questions. This Question is deferred to next week.
asked the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security:-
(a) what disciplinary action he will take on chiefs and assistant chiefs who are encouraging the brewing of illicit alcoholic drinks in Imenti North and Buuri districts; and,
(b) what other steps he is taking to reduce the practice which has threatened the youth from those areas.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) Show cause letters have been addressed to chiefs and assistant chiefs as to why they should not be dismissed for abetting brewing and consumption of illicit alcohol in their areas of jurisdiction. This has, therefore, drastically reduced prevalence of illicit brews in the two districts. (b) The following steps have so far been taken to reduce the practice in those districts. 1. The Districts have mounted campaigns through barazas to sensitize members of the public on the effects of illicit brews and drug abuse. 2. The districts have also intensified patrols, especially in areas which are suspected to be drug and illicit brewing and consumption areas.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I seriously differ with the answer given by the Assistant Minister. On the contrary, there is an increase in the locations and sub- locations that illicit brewing is taking place. The youth are being affected. Were these show cause letters written one day? What action has been taken against those chiefs and assistant chiefs? Are they collectively being disciplined? How many chiefs and assistant chiefs have received those letters? Who has been found guilty of that offence, so that he can be dismissed? Show cause letters are not effective.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, one chief and two assistant chiefs have received those letters. There has been marked improvement according to the statistics that I have been provided with. They show that there is a decline in three months in terms of the number of persons taken to court and those fined. About 5,500 litres of illicit brews was also impounded and destroyed in that area.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the issue raised by Mr. Ruteere is not just applicable to North Imenti Constituency alone. It applies all over the country. The approach of the Ministry in controlling illicit brews will never work. The British tried it, but they failed. This Government tried it, but it has failed. Could the Assistant Minister tell the House what steps are being taken to control and regulate the production and consumption of traditional brews? They should not become illicit drinks.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, that is a good question. You will recall that in the Presidential Address, His Excellency the President, listed the policy on alcohol as one of the policies that will be brought before this House. We are also aware that there are about 16 laws which deal with various aspects of alcohol production and consumption. We have a draft law called the Alcoholic Beverages Control Bill in which we intend to consolidate the previous laws. What Mr. Olago is mentioning, in the case of, for example, c hangâaa, standards can be set to regulate the manufacture of that product as has happened in our neighbouring countries.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, NACADA under the parent Ministry receives only Kshs210 million for Recurrent and Development Expenditure. In Central Kenya, about 80 per cent of the youth cannot work, go to school or reproduce, particularly men, because of alcohol. This is a very serious matter. The Assistant Minister says they will table a Bill that will deal with aspects of alcohol production and consumption. I have drafted a private Bill, but it has never seen the light of day because of influence from certain quarters. Could he confirm to this House that, indeed, they will
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I share the concern of the hon. Member. As I said before, this Bill is coming before the House. It is one of the various laws that are in the pipeline. It is for the House Business Committee to determine the prioritization of which one comes before the other.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to believe that about 80 per cent of the Members of this House take alcohol. The people that we are trying to make a law for here are the very vulnerable members of this society. They are people who brought us to this Parliament. Although I do not support the issue of drug abuse, I would appreciate a situation where the Assistant Minister brings a law that does not completely bar them from enjoying what they can. In the place where I come from, something like maroa or
from western Kenya is food as far as I am concerned. We should make laws that do not impinge the enjoyment of certain rights of the people that we represent.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to thank the hon. Member for making a contribution. I hope that he makes a substantial contribution when the policy and the Bill actually come to the House. We also have the drug law in the pipeline.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the consumption of illicit brews is taking a big toll on our youth in Central Kenya and, in fact, most parts of the country. I am glad to hear that there were some steps taken against the chiefs and assistant chiefs. I wish the Assistant Minister could give a blanket order to all the chiefs and assistant chiefs to make sure that the type of illicit brews that are in their areas are not hazardous to health. Some of the brews that are found in my Embakasi Constituency are hazardous to health. I do not know what the Ministry is doing to make sure that even if people are enjoying those brews, they are not hazardous to their health. What can he do, through NACADA or health officers, to make sure that those brews are not hazardous to our people?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, as far as we are concerned, the drinks are as of now illegal. The chiefs and assistant chiefs are under instructions not allow their production and consumption. I am sure you have seen reports in the media of action being taken by chiefs in Nairobi area. We want to continue mounting campaigns through NACADA and barazas. I really want to appeal to leaders to support this effort. We also had cases when people are arrested, the community together with the leadership, tend to interfere in terms of asking the police to release the suspects. So, this is a joint effort by all of us.
Last question, Mr. Ruteere!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to ask the Assistant Minister whether he can consider promoting those chiefs who have eliminated illicit brews in their areas, so that those other chiefs who take weekly or monthly bribes can be encouraged to stop the malpractice as a way of looking for promotion.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I will undertake to do that, but I also want to appeal to the hon. Member that if he has any evidence of bribery or illicit brewing going on to also provide us with it, so that we take action.
Hon. Members, Question No.085 is also deferred to tomorrow. Next Question, Eng. Rege!
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. You cannot---
Order! Order, Mr. Chanzu! The Ministerâs Office has requested for this Question to be deferred. Under the same circumstances, the Chair has made it explicitly clear that in future, this should not be entertained. For now, the Chair has decided to allow this Question to be deferred. So, your Question is deferred to morrow afternoon.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I just want to raise a point of clarification.
What is it?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the procedure in this House is that we follow what is on the Order Paper. It is not for the Chair to make a ruling on an issue. I am the Questioner. The Minister cannot short-circuit the Question. It is proper for you, as the Chair, to---
So, what did you want? Did you want to say: âI ask Question No.85â and then I defer it? Proceed and do so.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I just wanted to say as follows---
Ask your Question!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask Question No.085, but this Question---
Order! Order! You have asked your Question! Can you sit?
The Question is deferred to tomorrow afternoon.
Next Question, Eng. Rege!
asked the Minister for Education:- (a) when the Ministry will publish and launch the syllabus on e- learning; and, (b) whether he could state how many secondary and primary schools have been equipped with computers.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) The Ministry does not intend to publish and launch a syllabus on e-learning. The hon. Member will appreciate that e-learning is a method of delivery of syllabus content that is done through radio and television broadcasts and use of computers.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to thank the Assistant Minster for answering the Question. However, he has, simply, described what e-learning is. In view of its urgency, I would request him to actually tell us what the Ministry intends to do. In his answer, he says that they do not intend to publish or launch a syllabus on e- learning. I presume that there is a way of using computers, but what we do not know about is the software content. For example, in most secondary schools, we do not have laboratories---
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I am under attack here, because of what appears in the newspapers.
Order, Prof. Olweny! You are out of order.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am under attack here!
Who is attacking you?
Nobody is attacking him!
Proceed, Eng. Rege!
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I need to know whether the Ministry has software content to be loaded into the computers they have distributed to the1,163 secondary schools and the 15 primary schools.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, could you protect me from the hon. Members!
Order! Order! Prof. Olweny and the hon. Members seated near him! If you want to have your fun, please, have it outside the Chamber! Let us have silence, so that we can transact the business of the House in dignity.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Could the Ministry explain what they plan to load into the computers distributed to the1,163 schools and 15 primary schools?
You have made your point well, Eng. Rege. Let the Assistant Minister answer.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I appreciate the hon. Memberâs concern. It is the Ministryâs---
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, could we have silence, so that I can be heard?
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I am raising this point of order with a lot of reluctance. Mr. Mbugua is moving round and threatening us. He has threatened me here by saying that I am planning to bring a censure Motion against the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance, and that I will see. He has now gone to the other side of the House, and it appears that he is doing the same. I think he should be asked to be orderly, even though I know that there is very little he can do to me.
Proceed, Mr. Assistant Minister.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Ministry is working on the particular concern raised by the hon. Member. We will, definitely, have an answer in the next six months or so.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to know when the Ministry intends to come up with an e-learning policy. Schools all over the world are now going e- learning. I am not sure whether the Ministry has a policy on e-learning. Let me know whether the Ministry has such a policy.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Ministry has an e-learning policy. That is why we are putting e-learning into place.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to know what the Ministry is doing to assist schools get connected to electricity to facilitate computerization of schools being undertaken by the Constituencies Development Fund (CDF) and other organizations.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Ministry of Education is working closely with the Ministry of Energy. We have provided funding through KESSEP to try and have as many schools as possible connected to electricity.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. On a very serious note, I want protection from Kutuny!
What is going on?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, he is saying very bad things to me. He is saying that he is going to fight me! I am seeking your protection!
Protection from what?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, Mr. Kutuny says that he is going to fight me! He just came here!
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Speaker, Sir. Is it okay for the accuser to become the accused? Prof. Olweny moved from three seats away to come to where Mr. Kutuny is. He started talking to Mr. Kutuny and then rose to complain about him. Is it in order?
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. We are very disappointed with the Government. It is very disappointing that Prof. Olweny, who is an Assistant Minister, can even add to the problem. What we are asking is that the Government must be seen to be serious. That is not what is being portrayed today. It has gone to the level of Prof. Olweny claiming that a very cool man like Mr. Kutuny is threatening him.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. During the last Session, I asked a Question about the sugar industry in this country. Three days later, I was called by Prof. Olweny who is now seated at that corner. He told me that people even get killed when they ask questions related to the sugar industry. He seems to have embraced the culture of threatening people. So, he should be the last person to complain.
Order, Mr. Mututho! Hon. Members, if indeed, some hon. Members are threatening others in this House for whatever reason; whether to influence their conscience or freedom in exercising their duties in the House then the right
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Chanzu, if your point of order is related to this matter, you should know that the matter has been disposed of!
Proceed Mr. Assistant Minister!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to emphasize that the Ministry continues to provides fund to ensure that all public schools are well equipped.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I expect the Assistant Minister to come back next time with a more comprehensive answer. This is because Kenyan secondary school graduates cannot get jobs unless they are ICT literate. Today, jobs in major companies are obtained through filling forms via computers. Unless students get educated before they graduate from secondary schools, there is no way they will get jobs if they fail to join our universities. I would like the Assistant Minister to kindly treat this issue with the seriousness it deserves rather than giving casual answers like the ones I have been given.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have not handled the matter casually.
The hon. Member is telling you to show some seriousness. Are you serious?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am very serious. I think I am one of the most serious Assistant Ministers among the Ministers we have.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise on a point of order under Standing Order No.169 on failure by some Members to attend Committee meetings. A matter of grave concern has come to the attention of hon. Members of this House that the House Business Committee has failed to raise quorum. In fact, some hon. Members have never attended the Committeeâs meetings since we passed, in this House, a Motion making them Members of the House Business Committee. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I request for your ruling under Standing Order No.169, which states:- â(1) If a Member fails to attend four consecutive sittings of a Committee without the written permission of the chairperson of the Committee, or the permission of the Speaker if the Member is the chairperson, the member or the chairperson, as the case may be shall cease to be a Member of that Committee and the matter shall be reported to the Liaison Committee.
Order, Members! Indeed, Standing Order No.168 says:- âUnless the House otherwise resolves every Select Committee shall meet at least once every month.â Again, Standing Order No.169(1) says:- âIf a Member fails to attend four consecutive sittings of a Committee without the written permission of the chairperson of the Committee, or the permission of the Speaker if the Member is the chairperson, the Member or the chairperson as the case may be shall cease to be a Member of that Committee and the matter shall be reported to the Liaison Committee.â The tradition has been that the House Business Committee meets once in a week. As to the content, the real dynamics in these meetings, how many hon. Members have been attending and how frequent, and whether they have been doing this with the permission of the Speaker or not, because in this case, he is the chairperson of the Committee, the Chair will give a comprehensive ruling and direction on Tuesday, next week.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise on a point of order to request for a Ministerial Statement from the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security concerning the use of guns to scare away residents of Kipindi area in Migori before the killings thereabout at the border between Migori and Trans Mara districts on 24th April, 2009.
Mr. Assistant, Minister, can you give an undertaking on it?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Minister will issue a statement on Thursday, next week.
That is fair enough.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am requesting for a Ministerial Statement from the Minister for East African Community on efforts to resolve the dispute over the ownership of Migingo Island in Lake Victoria. In the Statement, the Minister should address himself to the following issues:- (i) why the Government of Uganda has not fully implemented the agreement contained in the point statement issued in Arusha by the President of Uganda and the President of Kenya on the way forward on the Migingo question; (ii) why the Government of Uganda continues to harass and threaten Kenyans stationed and going about their business; (iii) what is the rationale of spending Kshs140 million on the survey exercise while evidence, including maps exist; (iv) whether the Minister can confirm that the Government of Uganda is committed---
Order! Order, Mr. Anyanga! It is a tradition that whenever an hon. Member is seeking a Ministerial Statement, first of, all, he gets the Speaker to acquaint himself with the Ministerial Statement and to give direction so that you do not duplicate issues. We already have a Motion on Migingo Island. The Private Membersâ Motion here, which is sponsored by Dr. Khalwale, is precisely on Migingo Island. You are seeking a Ministerial Statement when the matter that, essentially, you are talking about can be addressed in your contributions here and the Minister or the Government side will definitely respond on the basis of that. So, I think it is only fair to allow this to continue. The Ministerial Statement, in my opinion, is not---
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, yesterday the Speaker advised me to go to his office and I did that. He confirmed that today I can raise the issue on the Floor of the House
So, you still insist on seeking that Ministerial Statement notwithstanding the contents of this Motion?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I still insist because these are different issues and I am addressing a different thing. Let me proceed.
(iv) whether the Minister can confirm that the Government of Uganda is committed to an amicable solution of the matter given that statements from Kampala have confirmed that the island belongs to Kenya and the water belongs to Uganda; and (v)whether the Government of Uganda will respect the survey findings.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move the following Motion:-
THAT, noting with concern---
Order! Order! Dr. Khalwale, before you move your Motion, the Government has to give an undertaking on when the Ministerial Statement requested by the hon. Member is going to be issued.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we undertake to provide the Statement to this House next week on Thursday.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Could we have the Minister and not the Assistant Minister?
Any Minister, Assistant Minister, Prime Minister, Vice- President even the President can take that responsibility, if he so wishes. So, he can take on behalf of any of them. As far as the Standing Orders are concerned, the âMinisterâ is defined as the President all the way down to the Assistant Ministers. So, he can take the responsibility for that. Next Order!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move the following Motion:- THAT, noting with grave concern the presence of Ugandan security forces, first in the Migingo Island, and secondly, in Kacheliba in West Pokot District, areas that form part of the sovereign Republic of Kenya, an act that is against the provisions of International Law; this House registers its strong opposition to and disapproval of this act of aggression by the Government of the Republic of Uganda, and resolves that the Ugandan security forces leave Kenyan soil with immediate effect and that the Government of Uganda unconditionally commits herself to respecting the territorial boundaries between Kenya and Uganda, and further, that this House urges His Excellency The President and Commander-In-Chief of the Armed forces of the Republic of Kenya to use all resources and options at his disposal to reclaim Kenyan land in accordance with the Constitution of Kenya. As I say this, it is important that I bring the House and, indeed, the whole nation to the following boundary brief between Kenya and Uganda. Indeed, there is a boundary between Kenya and Uganda, which measures approximately 580 miles. It stretches from tripod point with Tanzania, extends northwards through Lake Victoria for 86 miles.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I have a lot of respect for my friend hon. Khalwale. However, he is treading on dangerous grounds. I have listened to him very carefully. Standing Order No.79 bars hon. Members from discussing matters relating to a Head of State of a friendly nation. If Dr. Khalwale could continue with his debate without making so much reference to a Head of State of a friendly country, I think he will be in order. Otherwise, now he is out of order.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. First of all, I think this Motion has been brought before this House substantively. This, therefore, does away with that question. Yesterday, I raised an issue which was not responded to. Even if that were not the case, I do not deem Uganda as a friendly nation under these circumstances. I would urge that the Chair gives directions as to whether Uganda is indeed a friendly nation.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is amazing---
Order, Dr. Khalwale!
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Order, Ms. Odhiambo! Dr. Khalwale, please, proceed!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, indeed, this Motion which was approved by the Chair is intended to discuss the conduct of Uganda. If you stop me from discussing the conduct of Uganda, then you will be giving yourself powers that are not founded in our Standing Orders.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, once you approved this Motion, you knew that not so many good words were going to be said about Uganda.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I agree with Dr. Khalwale that the President of the Republic of Uganda discussed the issue with the media houses. As representatives of the Kenyan people in this House, we have the right to discuss the President and the Government of Uganda as long as Migingo Island is an issue.
Dr. Khalwale, can you proceed?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I was saying that the rich resource in the Migingo area and the prospects of oil and natural gas reserves is the principal motive why the leadership of Uganda is bent on taking away Migingo Island from us. Even if it annoys my brother, Mr. Musila, I want to reaffirm that Kenyans will not give away even an inch of the land. The President would better hear this loud and clear! Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, Uganda has severely failed the good neighbour test.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, if Uganda was a good neighbour, then she should not be associated with the sporadic attacks that we have seen historically, with Uganda attempting to take part of Kenya. Indeed, I remember when I was a little boy at Marinya Primary School, the then President of Uganda, Idi Amin, attempted to take over the entire Luhyia land and parts of the Rift Valley up to Naivasha, purporting that it was part of Uganda. Ooh! How I wish President Jomo Kenyatta was still alive! That is the time we heard the voice and felt the presence of a Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of a Republic. President Kenyatta ordered everybody, including primary school children and wananchi to match into the streets and Amin heard it loud and clear. Where is President Mwai Kibaki? If he cannot remember that far about 1886, which I was talking about, he can, at least, remember the time when President Kenyatta made the order. He was the then Minister for Finance. So, he can remember the minutes of that Cabinet meeting that took that decision. He owes it to Kenyans to make us proud of the
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I stand to second this Motion brought by hon. Dr. Khalwale. First of all, I want to start by congratulating hon.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. This is an issue that concerns either the Ministry of East African Community or that of Foreign Affairs, I see no representation of the same. This is a very sensitive matter, which we expect a Government response.
Order! I have already made a ruling on that. I can see several Assistant Ministers here. I see many of them here and they are representing that particular Ministry.
Mr. Mungatana, you may proceed seconding the Motion.
Order! Order, all of you! Order, hon. Affey
Hon. Mungatana could you proceed!
Order! Hon. C. Kilonzo!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I was on the point that there is a feeling among the people of Kenya and in this Parliament---
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Order, Mr. Affey!
Hon. Affey, I will hear that particular point of order. Could you go ahead and submit it.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the matter before us is of extreme national importance. It is unbelievable that there is not a single Minister of Government who is taking notes so as to respond on behalf of Government. Who is responding on behalf of the Government? We want to know.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Chair has very correctly ruled that this Government is heavily represented in the House. In the spirit of collective responsibility, I do not think that there is anything missing. Hon. Affey claims that Ministers are not taking notes. Does he need to see the notes I have already taken to believe that I have taken notes?
Order! We need to put this matter to rest. I have already said that on the Government side, there are several Ministers listening to the debate. They represent the Government. That is a fact. So, we need to proceed. Proceed, hon. Mungatana!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I was on the point that when Parliament is speaking as it does, it means that there is a collective feeling that nothing is being done by the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces. If something is being done, the country is not being kept informed appropriately of the developments that are taking place. We want the country to be reassured of what is taking place.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, it was none other than the former President of the Republic of Kenya, His Excellency Retired President Daniel Arap Moi, who, in fact, started raising this matter publicly. He stated that there is a concern that if anything is being done about Migingo Island, then the population and citenzry of this country ought to be kept informed by none other than His Excellency the Head of State of this country. So, we are grounding this Motion on our concern as Parliament. There is a feeling within the country that nothing is being done to address this issue. Tensions are rising high.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, this House in debating this issue is, not just being critical, but it is providing a ventilation process through which the will or opinion of Kenyans can be openly heard. We need to see some action being taken in this matter. We are not beating the war drums. This Parliament must not be understood in that way. We know war is expensive. Any person who has participated in anything like ethnic wars, skirmishes or even inter-tribal wars or those of us who have experienced these things in our constituencies, know war is expensive. War has no morality. War will kill. War will create hatred among neighbours. Children will hate each other and so on. When we say that all efforts must be made, we are reminded of 1932, when the governments of Kenya and Uganda had an issue about an area of Kenya lying to the west of the Turkwell River, which was formerly called the Rudolf Province. That area is now called Karasuk. In that incident of 1932, through an agreement between the two countries, it was agreed that the Karasuk area would be administered under Karamoja because it was convenient at that time for the sake of tribal control. Uganda then gained its Independence in October 9th, 1962. In the following year, 12th December 1963, Kenya got its Independence. Again, the governments of Kenya and Uganda sat together and agreed that the region of Karasuk be returned to Kenya. This was done in 1970 and the Karasuk area reverted back to Kenya, through an agreement between the two countries. Why am I bringing this issue in seconding this Motion? I am bringing this issue because it is an example of a historical fact that happened. We, as a country, and Uganda as a country, have never been to war. It is true that we have had border disputes before. It
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I would like to move an amendment to this Motion.
Did you give notice?
Yes, I gave notice of the intended amendment to the Speaker.
Let me consult on your request and see whether it is procedural or not. Mr. Musila, proceed!
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity. I stand here to support the Motion---
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. We must appreciate that you have given Mr. Musila the chance to reply on behalf of the Government. I am sure that he is contributing in his capacity as a Member of Parliament. That is why we were asking that the Minister for East African Community be here. This is a very important matter. This morning, when a Minister was not present to answer a Question, it was deferred. We must make sure that the Minister responsible has designated a Minister to respond to our issues. We cannot be acting in vain.
Thank you, Mr. Ethuro. That will be taken care of. I promise. Hon. Musila, please, proceed!
Mr. Musila): Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I stand to support this Motion. I share the concern of Kenyans and the anguish and frustration that they have gone through over the issue of Migingo Island and also, as the Motion states, the issue of the West Pokot boundary.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, would you protect me from this hon. Member?
Order, Mr. Ruto! Order! Proceed, Mr. Musila.
Mr. Musila): Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, some time ago, I mentioned that the act of the Ugandan Government to hoist their flag on the Migingo Island, which belongs to Kenya was, in
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. A few minutes ago, the hon. Member purported to be acting on behalf of the Government and that he was taking notes on behalf of the Government. Is he now confirming that the Kenyan Government is powerless and that he has been unable to act? He is supporting the Motion on the Floor. Is he doing that on behalf of the Kenyan Government; the same Government which sold the Migongo Island?
Order! Order, hon. Ruto!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not know whether the hon. Member wanted me to oppose the Motion---
Order, Mr. Musila! Hon. Musila is contributing to the Motion, first of all, as a Member of Parliament for Mwingi North. Secondly, he is contributing on the Motion. So, let us hear him out.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, who is speaking on behalf of the Kenyan Government?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, you have not called upon the Government to respond.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, you have not called upon the Government Responder. There is time allotted to the Government Responder which comes at the end of the Motion. I am not purporting to be speaking on behalf of the Government but I am a Member of the Government.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Order, Mr. Ruto!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, Mr. Ruto does not even know what the Responder would say. To say that I support this Motion does not mean--- Unless he waits and he hears what I am going to say later.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I was saying that the hoisting of a flag of any nation on another nationâs land by international law can be construed to mean annexation. Having said that, I am pleased to note that the Government of Uganda has since removed the flag on Migingo Island after diplomacy took place. Therefore, there is no flag at the moment and I am very happy that Uganda recognized that it was wrong for them to hoist a flag on Migingo Island. The Motion on the Floor of the House calls on the Government to use resources. I want to say that the Government is already using resources. Two days ago, the Minister for Foreign Affairs launched a team that is going to survey and provide guidance on the
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is the Assistant Minister in order to mislead this House that diplomacy was used when we know very well that it was after uprooting of the railway line in Kibera that the flag was removed?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, that is a point of argument and not a point of order. He is just arguing that it was not because of diplomacy. That is his opinion.
Therefore, the option of diplomacy must be given time. We are making a lot of progress with diplomacy. The other option, in the event that diplomacy does not work----
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Order! Mr. Assistant Minister, proceed!
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.Thank you---
Order, Mr. Ruto! Let us be serious. Mr. Musila, please, finish your remarks.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the hon. Member has done his best to interrupt my contribution; even my time has been wasted. Therefore, I hope that you will add me the minutes that the hon. Member has squandered. The other option that we have is mediation. In the very unlikely event that diplomacy between us and Uganda does not succeed, we still have the option of calling upon other partners in the EAC to mediate between us and ensure that we find a solution. We are also members of the African Union (AU). We can also seek the intervention of our brothers and sisters in AU to ensure that we get a solution. There are many options and I want to mention some of them to hon. Members. During the war between Nigeria and Cameroon due to a similar dispute, the International Court of Justice (ICJ) mediated and came up with a solution which has been honoured by the Nigerian Government up to today. In the event that diplomacy and mediation fails, we still have another option of going to the ICJ and get a ruling over the dispute. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am not saying this because the Kenya Armed Forces are not ready. Everyone knows in this House, and the hon. Member who spoke before me acknowledged, that we have professional armed forces and we have what it takes to protect the boundaries of this country. Going to war is the very last option, having exhausted all the options that I have said. So, I want to appeal to hon. Members to exercise caution because in the past, countries have gone to war over utterances of people. War is a very painful thing to even think about.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, with a lot of respect, Mr. Ruto should be informed that when he does not like what a person is saying, he should wait until his time comes then he can speak. This is my time and I intend to go through it until the last second.
On a point of information, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not require his information. Therefore, he may sit down. I do not require to be informed by the new hon. Member.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Musila, have you finished your contribution? Please, say your last words, then we can move on to Ms. Odhiamboâs proposed amendment.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I was assuring this House that the Kenya Armed Forces are ready to defend the borders of this country and whenever time comes, the army will do that but it is not yet time. There are hundreds and thousands of options to exercise.
With those few remarks, I beg to support.
Thank you, Mr. Musila. There was notice of amendment which was given by Ms. Odhiambo. I now ask her to go ahead and propose the amendment.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. We have heard that diplomacy is going on between Kenya and Uganda and we have also been told by the Chair that it is a friendly country. These are not rumours. I heard it on CNN yesterday, the President of the so-called âfriendly countryâ stating in an international conference that âLuos are madâ. Is it in order for us to continue considering Uganda a friendly country and continue with diplomacy? Is it also diplomatic for a whole President to besmirch an entire population of Kenya and in fact the whole of East Africa? The statement that he made is very serious and we need a statement from the Kenyan Government on this issue.
Thank you, hon. Ruto. Actually, the Motion before us is to discuss that. So, please, allow other hon. Members to contribute and I will give you time to contribute. So, the Motion is before us and you have all the time to tell your side of the story.
So, hon. Milly Odhiambo, please, proceed and move your amendment!
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity. I beg to move that the Motion be amended as follows:- By adding the words âand that this House urges His Excellency the President to seek the assistance of the United Nations Security Council to deal with this issue as a matter constituting a threat to international peace and security under the UN Charterâ, after the words âConstitution of Kenyaâ at the end. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the amended Motion will read as follows:-
âTHAT, noting with grave concern the presence of Ugandan security forces, first in the Migingo Island, and secondly, in Kacheliba in West Pokot District, areas that form part of the sovereign Republic of Kenya, an act that is against the provisions of International Law; this House registers its strong opposition to and disapproval of this act
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. At no any given time has hon. Musila or any Member of the Kenyan Government said that diplomacy has failed!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I will re-word, that the diplomacy referred to has apparently failed! I have used the word âapparentlyâ because it will be subject to my own assessment and that of the international community. The reason why I am saying that is because we have reached a level that not only I, as an hon. Member, but other members of the public will actually be dragging the name of Yoweri Museveni âka-somethingâ into this House in disrespect, which is not in order. When I was coming here, I actually had constituted an abhorable name for him. But I will be stateswoman so that I am do not sink to his level. I will not call him the names that he calls people!
I am more of a stateswoman than Yoweri Museveni and whatever the other name is! So, I want to say that I can be ten times more the President of Uganda than Yoweri Museveni-- -
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Are you satisfied that hon. Odhiambo is acting in accordance with the Standing Orders of this House, specifically Standing Order No.79, which bars hon. Members from discussing the conduct of Heads of States and Governments of friendly countries? In this respect, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I think the Chair has, since yesterday, ruled that, that is out of order. The Chair should not continue to watch as hon. Members flout the rules of the House!
Order, hon. Odhiambo! Hon. Odhiambo, you are doing a good job; actually an excellent job.
I am sorry, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. It is just that I forgot his name. If I remembered his name, I would have actually used it, but I forgot it! So, I apologize for forgetting his name. I do not remember it.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the reason why I actually agree with you that I do not want to be dragged into this name-calling is that, if you actually looked at it, this is not a Kenyan problem! A non-governmental organization in Uganda called Accord has actually released a report saying that Uganda is in a crisis! They have a land crisis! They are going to be the third-largest population in the world and, therefore, they are in conflict with all their neighbours! Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the international boundary conflict does not only include Migingo, in Kenya, but has pitted Uganda with a nine-kilometre stretch in Yumbe between Uganda and Sudan, the Katuna border area with Rwanda and Mutukula area with Tanzania. There have been disagreements with Congo. They have disagreements with Rakwach Agura border area in Arua. In 2007, it even led to conflict where a Ugandan was killed in Congo! So, this is not a problem unique to Kenya, and that is why I am invoking the UN Security Council.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir---
Order! Order! Order, hon. Musila!
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for protecting me!
But, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I have no problem with---
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, can you protect me! You have not given him the Floor! Even though he has called us new Members, we are very seasoned new Members!
Order! Order, Ms. Odhiambo! Hon. Musila, do you have a burning issue?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is just a matter of procedure. I am not intending, in any way, to interrupt the hon. Member. I am only saying that hon. Odhiambo was moving an amendment. But what is going on now is like she is debating that amendment. I just needed your guidance!
Hon. Musila, actually, she is contributing to that amendment and then it will be seconded here shortly. So, hon. Odhiambo, do not get out of your amendment. Just move your amendment and complete!
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for protecting me and noting that this is actually procedural. I am a seasoned new hon. Member. Thank you!
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. We need to protect the rules and integrity of this House. I know that Migingo is a burning issue; it is a national issue! But we cannot allow hon. Members to use the Floor of this House to call the President of a neighboring country names. I want hon. Odhiambo to withdraw that paraphrased name of President Museveni!
Order, hon. Odhiambo! Sit Down! Ms. Odhiambo, I have already agreed with you that we are moving an amendment. However, I do not agree with you at the end when you address President Museveni in another name. You did not address him as President Museveni. Could you withdraw that other name and address him as hon. Museveni.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I wish to withdraw the name â Musenjeni â and call him President Museveni.
Could, Mr. Ethuro, second the Motion?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I wish to second the Motion as amended by Ms. Odhiambo. It is true as a House and as people who represent our citizens, this House must demonstrate its total displeasure with the way our two Heads of
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I support the Motion as amended. Let me start by thanking the Mover of the original Motion, Dr. Khalwale for making it possible for us today to discuss this issue that has been with us for a while.
Before we went on recess, I proposed to move such a Motion, but the Government requested that we defer it, so that they follow diplomatic channels. As I talk today, even though the Government is hailing those diplomatic channels, they have not borne any significant fruit. I do not want to belabour the point of where Migingo Island or Kacheliba is because it appears now that even Ugandans have confirmed that they know it is our territory.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, when I was young, I used to fish up to Migingo Island. Even then I knew it was our territory. I was never harassed. In 1991, the first inhabitants of Migingo Island settled there. They were all from Kenya. As I talk today, about 90 per cent of the population in Migingo Island are Kenyans. Over 50 per cent of that population come from my constituency.
I would like to point out that even with the map, the Ugandan Constitution and the Kenyan Constitution confirm that Migingo has always been and will always be in Kenya. Yesterday when I listened to the President of Uganda talk, I was amazed. First of all, the Government of Kenya must take immediate steps to protest to the President of Uganda to be a bit civil in his language. I do not understand how a President of a whole nation can abuse a community that forms a third of his own country. The Luos are not only in Kenya. There are more Luos in Uganda. As members of the Luo community, I want to confirm that we have no problem with Uganda. We have our cousins in Uganda and we will be the biggest losers if Kenya went to war with Uganda.
That notwithstanding, we cannot entertain and tolerate the President of the so- called friendly country exporting his dictatorial tendencies to our country. I do not want to hear Alfred Mutua speak today over Migingo. I want to hear the President of this country speaking to the President of Uganda and telling him that his comments on the Luos are unacceptable. We, as a country, are trying to heal from the effects of ethnicity. We are trying to work on cohesiveness of this country. We cannot at this time accept another country to come and segregate us and turn a national issue to a community issue. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am a Luo and I am not mad. If Luos are mad, are Pokots in Kacheliba also mad? Why are Ugandan military personnel removing the beacons in Kacheliba, if only Luos are mad? Luos have not gone to Kacheliba. If he is using the skin colour, he should be told that all Nilotes are black. All Africans are black, but all Nilotes are so black. So, when he sees Pokots, he thinks he is seeing Luos.
We want to remind him that Kacheliba and Migingo are in Kenya. The President of Uganda must desist from interfering with our country. Our country must remain sovereign. He is referring to the water around Migingo Island as Ugandan water. He should be reminded that the bulk of the water in Lake Victoria comes form Kenya. That includes the water in Jinja. So, he should not intimidate us. We fought dictatorship in this country. We cannot fail to fight dictatorship from another country. If we fought dictatorship of a President who was residing in Kenya, what can stop us from fighting dictatorship of a President who is residing in another country?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, looking at the economic effects of what has happened ever since this controversy began, I can tell you that I have some of my constituents, who used to fish around Migingo Island. Due to fear, they have grounded all
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I find it strange that we have reached a point in this country where we talk about âLuoâ issue. This is not a Luo issue. It is a national issue.
Prof. Kaloki): So, what is your point, Mr. Musyimi?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I just think the language ought to be changed. Is he in order to talk about a âLuoâ issue. This is a national issue.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir---
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, can I finish responding to the point of order raised by Mr. Musyimi?
Order! Order! On the point of order raised by Mr. Musyimi, the issue of âLuosâ is actually what we are discussing in this particular Motion. It is already contained there as some of the submissions that were brought forward by the Mover of the Motion. So, let me hear one point of order and then
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, my point of order is on procedure. The hon. Member on the Floor is using an amendment to actually address himself to the Motion on hand. He has not said anything about the amendment. That is what has been happening repeatedly. Is he in order not even be relevant to the amendment?
Prof. Kaloki): You are right, Mr. Minister! Could you go ahead and complete your submission, Mr. Mbadi, so that we can go back to the main Motion?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, if you analysed my speech properly, you would have known that I am contributing to the amendment.
Let me conclude my submission by asking the Government that as we explore these other channels, we also set up a military base around Lake Victoria and in the Western side of the Kenyan border. We can donate Ruma National Park, because it is only killing our domestic animals. It is not helping us. We can donate that vast land to the Government to set up a military base.
With those remarks, I beg to support the amendment.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me the opportunity---
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I want to raise a matter of procedure.
Order! Order! Mr. Musyimi, are you now contributing to the Motion?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am contributing to the amendment.
Order! Mr. Musyimi, we have disposed of that amendment. We are now back to the Motion, as amended.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for such an important amendment to be discussed by only three hon. Members; that is the Mover, the seconder and one hon. Member? It is unprocedural!
Order, Mr. Kabando! I will come to your side.
Proceed, Mr. Wamalwa!
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I would like to contribute to the Motion as amended. May I thank Ms. Odhiambo for the wonderful amendment she has made to this Motion.
Hon. Members, on the Question of the amended Motion which we have already disposed of, I would like to repeat it so that it is clear to everybody. At the end of the word âKenyaâ in the original Motion, we added âand that---â. That is what we were disposing of. I can repeat those words at the end just for the record.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. The proper procedure was not followed because Ms. Odhiambo proposed the amendment which was seconded by Mr. Ethuro. That is the time you should have proposed the Question.
He did that!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, when you proposed the Question of the amendment, you allowed one hon. Member to contribute. We rose on the Government side but you did not allow anyone of us to contribute. It is only fair that if you have heard one side you should also hear the other side. In this case, could I request that whatever has happened now be disregarded and we continue with the amendment?
Hon. Musila, we are actually discussing a matter of procedure. We want to make sure that we keep our records right and then continue with the debate. I would like to go by the amendment proposed by Ms. Odhiambo. I now want to put the Question on the insertion of the additional wording by Ms. Odhiambo.
We have already done that!
Let us just be sure of that because the Clerks-at-the-Table did not get it.
No, they did!
Order! I repeat this for the record of the National Assembly.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. It will be helpful.
I will not allow any more points of order on that matter.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Wamalwa, you will contribute to the Motion as amended!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Motion has not been amended yet!
Mr. Wamalwa, you will debate the Motion as amended.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I would like to contribute to the Motion as amended. I would like to thank Ms. Odhiambo for the very valuable amendment she has made to this Motion---
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. It is not my intention to try and disrupt this debate, but the right procedure must be followed. As a senior Member of this House, I want to point out that we have not followed the right procedure. Even the Question of the amendment has not been put correctly. Could you put the Question correctly the way you proposed it? You cannot read an attachment at the end and put the Question!
My point of order is that the procedure should be carried out in a proper manner for our records. You proposed the Question in one way and you put it in a different way. I am just asking you to put the Question exactly the same way you proposed it before it was debated.
We have done that!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I was here and you did not do that.
Order, Mr. Poghisio! We have done that! Proceed Mr. Wamalwa!
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. May I again thank Ms.Odhiambo who has brought this valuable amendment that includes the requirement that the President seeks the assistance of the United Nations (UN) Security Council to deal with this matter as a threat to peace and security of not just Kenya, but the region as a whole. Kenya is member of the family of nations and it is, therefore, in order that when any member of this family is threatened by a bully neighbour, the UN comes in and deals with the situation to prevent any insecurity or instability in the area. For that reason alone, I would like to thank Ms. Odhiambo.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would also like to support this Motion because what has happened or is happening in Migingo and other parts of this country, including Kanyerus in Pokot, is a matter that is not about tribes. It is a matter that concerns countries and, indeed, the international communityâs intervention is necessary.
I was quite saddened to hear His Excellency President Museveni say that the Migingo issue is a Jaluo affair.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. We are discussing a very important matter. If we have to refer a matter to the UN, then it is a very important matter. However, is there a quorum in the House?
No, we do not have a quorum. Ring the Division Bell!
Hon. Members, we are unable to raise the requisite quorum. Therefore, this House stands adjourned until this afternoon at 2.30 p.m.
The House rose at 11.55 a.m.