Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to give notice of the following Motion:- THAT, pursuant to Section 27(4)(b) of the Constituencies Development Fund (Amendment) Act, 2007; this House adopts the Report of the Constituencies Development Fund Committee on the appointment of the Chief Executive Officer of the Constituencies Development Board laid on the Table of the House, Wednesday, 13th May, 2009.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security the following Question by Private Notice. (a) Could the Minister explain what informed the security operations in Samburu East District in February 2009, and why only members of one community were targeted?
Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, this Question should be answered next week.
This is a Question by Private Notice.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, as you are aware, the Assistant Minister, Mr. Ojode, is a bit unwell and Prof. Saitoti is attending a critical security meeting.
Order, hon. Members! The Chair did follow what transpired this morning and I am aware that a number of Ministers--- In fact, the majority of Ministers were not in the House this morning to answer Questions pertaining to their different portfolios. The new Standing Orders explicitly provide that it shall amount to disorderly conduct for a Minister to fail to answer a Question. Hon. Richard Onyonka, who is a Minister by virtual of being an Assistant Minister in the Government, has not offered any explanation that is tenable or plausible for that matter, as to why neither the substantive Minister nor his Assistants are here to answer this Question. So, I will be deemed to take action now. Hon. Members, I direct that this House will not transact the business of the Ministry of State under the Office of the President in charge of Provincial Administration and Internal Security until such a time that an acceptable explanation is offered to the House as to why the Minister is not here. It is so ordered!
asked the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for
Local Government: - (a) what plans he has to provide clean water, toilet facilities and generally improve the conditions at Katito and Sondu markets, considering that the markets lack those facilities and become muddy during the rainy seasons; and,
(b) when the Ministry plans to construct a market at Kolweny Shopping Centre along the Kisumu-Kendu Bay Road.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, so far, I have not received a written answer to this Question.
Order! With respect to Question No.021, I have just received communication, which I understand was availed to the Clerks-at-the-Table earlier on in the day, to explain why the Minister is not here to answer this Question. So, there is an explanation which, in my assessment, appears to be rational. At least, there was an attempt by the Minister to notify the Clerk of the position on 8th May, 2009. So, in those circumstances, therefore, I will defer this Question to Tuesday next week at 2.30 p.m.
Mr. Ochieng, please, note!
Next Question by hon. Mututho!
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
What is it? If it relates to Question No.021, no! I have already called for Question No.007!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I thought it would be---
Hon. Ruto, be careful! I have already called for Question No.007.
asked the Minister for Labour: - (a) why M/s Console Base (agents of Kenya Ports Authority) dismissed the only lady employee, Ms. Lucy Wambui Maguru from the motor vehicle section and paid her only Kshs15,000 in l ieu of notice after working for two years with the firm; and, (b) whether he could order her reinstatement or payment of her terminal dues.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
(a) Ms. Lucy Wambui Maguruâs services were terminated by Console Base, an agent of the Kenya Ports Authority. She was paid on notice and two days worked, making a total of Kshs15,720 vide Barclays Cheque No.103025, which was legally due to her. She was the only female employee in her section though the company has an overall workforce of 89 employees, of which 26 are women. Ms. Lucy Wambui Maguru was engaged as a driver on a renewable contract of six months. No other terminal dues were payable apart from the notice and the days worked. Her services were terminated due to reduction of work. She was paid what was due to her. (b) In accordance with the Labour Laws, the Minister cannot order her reinstatement. However, the company has promised that, in case the business improves, she will be taken back.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, that lady is now a widow. She was sacked because she went to look after her husband, who later died in hospital. She worked for two years and she was the best employee of that company. Therefore, she could not have
Order! This is Question Time! Mr. Minister, can you investigate?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the hon. Member contacted me this morning and gave contrary views about the sacking of Ms. Lucy. I promise to investigate this case.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, such kind of cases are prevalent in many organizations. I would like to hear from the Minister what measures he is going to put in place, through his labour officers in the various districts, to ensure that, that kind of information comes to him quickly and he is able to act, so that we can solve those kind of situations.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, you will appreciate that there are so many such cases coming to my Ministry. I have told the labour officers to be alert on such cases and respond to them as they come. However, you must understand that the Ministerâs hands are tied. If there are cases that the Ministry is not able to solve through our officers, the advice has always been that you seek redress at the Industrial Court.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have no further question. I am satisfied because the investigations will be carried out.
Very well. Mr. Ruteere!
asked the Minister for Forestry and Wildlife:- (a) whether he could confirm that logging, charcoal burning and over- population of elephants that were trans-located to the lower Imenti Forest are posing serious threat to the forest; and, (b) what urgent measures he is taking to address the above concerns and prevent further destruction.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) Yes, I confirm that there have been occasional cases reported of illegal logging and charcoal burning in Lower Imenti Forest, and that those activities are posing a threat to the forest.
However, there has not been any trans-location of elephants to the lower Imenti Forest. The population of elephants in the forest consists of herds of elephants migrating from Isiolo area and the Mount Kenya Forest.
(b) My Ministry has been conducting patrols in lower Imenti Forest to address the problem of illegal logging and charcoal burning. The Ministry, through the Kenya Wildlife Service, is also conducting community education and awareness creation on sustainable natural resource management. Besides, the Ministry continues to sensitize
to report incidents of illegal activities, including forest destruction, promptly.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, while I appreciate the answer given by the Assistant Minister, the communities which are involved in replanting the forest are the
Mr. Speaker, Sir, our field officers have a responsibility to co- operate with the community and all the stakeholders on the ground. If Mr. Ruteere has incidents on specific officers, could he provide us with that information so that we can investigate and take action?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, logging in forests is a common phenomenon in all parts of this country. Nyambene Forest, which neighbours my constituency, is now completely depleted. Igembe South West District Officer has arrested people involved in logging and has taken them to the District Forest Officer for disciplinary action but he has completely done nothing. Instead, he colludes with people who are involved in logging in the forest.
Order, Mr. Linturi! It is Question Time!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, what is the Ministry doing to punish forest officers who collude with people who are continuing to log in the forest?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, as I have said, if Mr. Linturi has details of specific cases, let him notify me. My office is open and I am also available in Parliament everyday so that we can investigate and make a follow-up. In cases where we have evidence of officers being involved in illegal logging, we have taken them to court.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is one of the most sensitive water catchment areas that we have. Could the Assistant Minister be specific and tell us how they will manage the elephants if they cannot manage the charcoal burners?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Questioner sought to know whether we have translocated the elephants. You will realize that we have migratory corridors that are used by the elephants. These corridors have already been occupied by human beings. So, we are taking all precautions to ensure that the conflict is minimized. Unless we do something on the issue of land use practices, then we may not completely avoid the increase in conflict between the elephants and human beings.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am satisfied by the assurance of the Assistant Minister, that if I take the names of the officers involved in the destruction of the forest, he will take action.
That then brings us to the end of Question Time.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I am ready to respond to this Question.
On the first Question by Private Notice by Mr. Letimalo, I want to apologize for not being here on time. I was just here at the television room and some friends were telling me âpoleâ and inquiring about what happened. I am very sorry and I undertake that I will be here on time to respond to Questions.
Hon. Members, in view of the circumstances surrounding Mr. Ojodeâs inability to be here on time, I lift the order that I had earlier made. You may proceed to respond to the Question by Private Notice.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security the following Question by Private Notice. (a) What informed the security operation in Samburu East District in February, 2009 and why only members of one community were targeted? (b) How many people were killed in the operation, what are the circumstances of the deaths and what are the identities of the victims? (c) Could he confirm that a chemical was sprayed on herdsmen and also explain what chemical it was as well as the effects on victims?
(d) Could he further state the damage resulting from the operation and number of livestock confiscated during the operation, the owners thereof and when will he compensate the victims for the losses?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, this Question had already been answered. However, there was one part which was not elaborately dealt with. I wish to table the names of beneficiaries and I request the Questioner to peruse through the list and if there are any queries or clarifications, then I am free to give.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is okay if he has tabled the list. However, part âdâ of the Question requires him to further state the damage resulting from the operation and the number of livestock confiscated during the operation. The Assistant Minister is supposed to provide the list of livestock owners.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have the list here and I request the Questioner to first go through the list first and then later on ask me any question.
Hon. Members, note that this Question had partially been dealt with earlier on and the Assistant Minister has now tabled the information as the House required.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, could the Assistant Minister quote the relevant law that allows him to confiscate animals from persons against whom he has no evidence as to whether they participated in cattle rustling? This is a practice that has been going on in the Office of the President, where they confiscate animals from innocent people and then say that it is evidence of cattle rustling. Could he tell us the relevant laws that they use when they are confiscating animals from people when they have no evidence whether they participated in cattle rustling?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, we normally use the community to identify them. Once the community identifies them, we take those animals and ask the owners to come and identify them.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, could the Assistant Minister tell us whether it is Government policy to undertake community punishment when they are looking for specific criminals who have committed specific crimes?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I do not think that we have punished any community. When a community reports that their animals have been taken by another
Mr. Speaker, Sir, when the Assistant Minister says that they use the community to identify the stolen animals, the question is: What was the use of military choppers that were used to round up animals while they were grazing in the fields? How did they determine that those animals that they were rounding up from the grazing fields belonged to the criminals â the cattle rustlers â or whether they belonged to the farmers?
How could they---
That is fair enough, Mr. Letimalo! Mr. Letimalo, accept this before the Assistant Minister responds. You will also realize, and I want to persuade you to agree with me that, that was not a point of order. You merely asked two questions. So, I will treat those as the last questions on this matter and the Assistant Minister can respond.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is true that we used military choppers to trace the animals. The terrain in that area is not very good. So, we could only use military choppers to trace the animals.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, is it in order for the Assistant Minister to purport to have answered the question when he has not? I asked him to give us the relevant section of the law that empowers them to confiscate animals. He only told us that they consult the community. But in real terms, they actually confiscate animals without talking to the communities. I am asking for the relevant section of the law that allows them to do that.
Order! Order! Order! Yes, that is valid. Mr. Assistant Minister, what law have you invoked?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have categorically stated that we have never confiscated any animals. We only assist the communities to identify the animals. We bring the animals to one particular area in order for those who have lost their cattle to come for identification purposes.
That does it! That brings us to the end of Question Time. Are there any requests for Ministerial Statements? You had better do it now. Mr. Olago!
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Question Time is over!
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I seek a Ministerial Statement from the Minister for Youth Affairs and Sports in relation to the Sports Fund, so that her statement can address the following issues:- (i) In this yearâs Budget, this House approved a sum of Kshs1 million for each constituency to be utilized in accordance with the guidelines issued by the Ministry for the purposes of promoting sports, especially football in the constituencies. The actual amount that has been disbursed by the Ministry to the constituencies is actually Kshs771,000 and not Kshs1 million. What are the reasons for the reduction of that allocation? (ii) Did the Ministry consult with the National Assembly or the Members of Parliament (MPs) on the decision to reduce the allocation? (iii) The amount retained by the Ministry throughout the country works out to Kshs48 million. What role do the MPs and their respective Constituency Sports Committees have in the way that money will be utilized?
Fair enough! Madam Minister, when will that Statement be availed? Where is the Minister for Youth Affairs and Sports? Is there any Minister to hold brief for her?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will endeavor to transmit the message to the Minister, Mrs. Sambili, the Minister for Youth Affairs and Sports about the query raised. Maybe, it will be addressed by next week on Tuesday.
This week or next week?
Next week, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
It is so ordered; next week on Wednesday!
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I rise to request seek a Ministerial Statement from the Minister for Foreign Affairs in relation to the derogatory and belligerent statement issued by the Head of State of the friendly Republic of Uganda.
That was done in a public forum at the University of Dar-es-Salaam and the international media covered it. I am sure that is not hearsay and I request for a Ministerial Statement.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think the matter that has been raised is quite weighty. I think we need to discuss and agree on what the reasonable approach will be in dealing with the matter because it is very sensitive and touches on---
How long do you want to do that?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, most probably by tomorrow, if we get an answer.
Are you able to give that Statement tomorrow?
Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir. This is a weighty matter and I think it needs an urgent reply. It is possible. Yes, I will!
Fair enough! It is directed that the Statement be availed to morrow at 2.30 p.m.! What is it, Mr. Ethuro?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I had sought a Ministerial Statement from the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security last Wednesday, and the Speaker ordered that it be delivered today in the afternoon. I want to believe that, that is why hon. Ojode was rising.
That may very well be so, but if you see the Order Paper, we are supposed to move on to the Prime Ministerâs Time now, at 3.00 p.m. It is supposed to be not later than 3.00 p.m. So, we will defer this Statement, I am afraid, to tomorrow at 2.30 p.m. Is that okay with you, Mr. Assistant Minister?
No, Mr. Speaker, Sir. It will not be possible tomorrow. I seek the indulgence of the Chair to defer it to next week on Tuesday.
Tuesday, next week?
Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Yes, it is so ordered!
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. We are talking about a matter that left two people dead and eight people injured by the police. The situation is tense and cannot wait until next week! I can show you photographs!
Is the security situation deteriorating further?
Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir, even as we speak now!
Well, I will take your word to be truthful and, so, I will allow that Statement to be made and I will add time to the Prime Minister as may be necessary.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, his Statement is not ready with me. But I have another one. That is the reason I was asking for Tuesday, because we need to get the information from the ground.
In that case then, my order will stand - Tuesday, next week, notwithstanding that it is a matter that is involving deaths! I hope you will find time to contain the situation.
Order, Mr. Ethuro! You have been here and you have heard the circumstances. Please, learn to be a bit tolerant and accommodative! Will you be accommodative?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, of course, with your direction and my temperament, I would like to be accommodating. But we cannot accommodate more deaths and injuries! The Assistant Minister needs to make a categorical statement that will stop his officers from killing innocent people in Turkana by tomorrow!
Mr. Assistant Minister, can you give an undertaking that you will discharge your duty?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, if, indeed, it is true that it is my officers who are killing innocent Kenyans, I would want to order for a stop to that immediately!
Order, hon. Members! We will now proceed to the Prime Ministerâs Time, as per the Order Paper, and I wish to make this communication as we come to that business.
asked the Prime Minister:- (a) if there has been any public inquiry into the conduct of the British Colonial Administration in Kenya during the 1950s emergency, particularly on torture and human rights abuses to citizens of Kenya; (b) whether the British Government has paid any compensation to victims of issued public apology for the atrocities; (c) when specifically the Government will implement the Motion passed by this House on 8th October, 2008 to give a minimum of 2.5 acres of arable land to every authenticated Mau Mau veteran; (d) if the Government could arrange urgent medical attention for the ten Mau Mau veterans who still have bullets lodged in their bodies since the Mau Mau uprising.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) No, there has been no public inquiry about the conduct of the British administration in Kenya during the 1950s emergency period, particularly with regard to torture and human rights abuses. After Kenya attained Independence in 1963, the founding fathers of our nation followed a policy of reconciliation and nation building. Hon. Members will remember that our founding father said that we should forgive, but not forget. That was done. At that time, the Kenyan leadership did not intend to open old wounds, which had been inflicted during the colonial period. A commission of inquiry, therefore, was considered to be unnecessary.
(b) The British Government has not paid any compensation to the victims of the atrocities during the 1950s, so far. The Mau Mau veterans, together with other Kenyan human rights activists, have instructed a firm of lawyers in London to commence proceedings against the British Government for compensation.
The British Government has also not issued any apology for their atrocities. Besides compensation the victims will also seek a formal apology from the British Government in the said suit.
(c) The Government has not set a time limit for implementation of the resolution passed by this House on 8th October, last year. The resolution required that a minimum of
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will provide full details of the people I am referring to. As regards part âaâ of the Question, there was a question in the House of Commons in 2006. Indeed, they are still waiting for formal presentation by this Government. Could the Prime Minister, please, address that issue, so that they can make formal presentations in view of compensation?
Order, hon. Members. From the Communication that I made earlier on this afternoon, we feel that it would be tidier for the Prime Minister to respond at once to all supplementary questions relating to answers that he gives to questions directed to him. Then he moves on to issue a Statement. Prime Minister, please, note the first question from Mr. Mututho and note the second one now by Mr. Mungatana.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to thank the Prime Minister for the answer he has given to this House. It looked more historical than forward looking. We have precedents from governments like the Government of Japan which has sought and obtained apology for the sex slaves that were enslaved during the Second World War.
We have heard that there has been no formal attempt by the Kenya Government to even obtain an apology. When will the Prime Minister formally seek an apology for the heinous atrocities that were committed against the Mau Mau by the British colonizers.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, in other parts of the Commonwealth apologies have been given, including in Australia, where there was an apology to the Aborigines. Is it not correct that, indeed, it is because of lack of interest and not seeking an apology on the part of the Government that it has not been given, so far?
One supplementary question per hon. Member!
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is very sad that we are talking about the Mau Mau almost half a century after they accomplished their task, along with other Kenyans, of liberating the country. Could the Government consider not just looking after their
Hon. Members, please, note the Communication - the Questioner, that is the hon. Member speaking, the answers from the Prime Minister and three interjections, which we have already covered.
Mr. Prime Minister!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, again, the Questions fall into three categories â compensation, apology and documentation. I do not want to apologise for those who were here before me. I want the House to be aware that this issue was discussed very extensively in this House in the 1960s. In fact, the nationalist movement that brought Independence to this country split purely because of this particular issue.
The issue of land was very critical. It cost the late Hon. Bildad Kagia his job when he stood firm and said: âThose who sacrificed most for the Independence of this country were cheated. The loyalists and the homeguards became the major beneficiaries of Independenceâ. Hon. Kagia was ostracized as being a sellout. Consequently, he lived most of his life in misery.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to say that I fully subscribe to the school of thought that we wanted to see that those who sacrificed for the Independence of this country were properly compensated and rewarded. I share the sentiments that apology is in order. I know, for example, that the Japanese Government apologized to the Chinese people for atrocities committed during the Nazi period. I also know that Germany has also apologized to the victims of the Nazi oppression.
So, there is still no reason as to why these issues cannot be explored by this Government. So, what I can do is to undertake to forward this matter to the Cabinet for consideration.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I also agree with Ms. Karua that there has not been proper official documentation of what actually happened, and that it is important and necessary that this documentation is done for posterity. I know that a lot of books have been written by individuals over this period. Very many historians have actually chronicled the events during that particular period, but I think more resources can still be spent in this particular exercise, so that we can properly document what happened to our people during that time for posterity purposes.
This is something that can be done through the Ministry of State for National Heritage. Resources can be made available for this exercise. Again, I undertake to have this matter fully discussed in the Cabinet.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. About two weeks ago, I did forward three Questions to the Prime Ministerâs Office. One was answered while he was away. Two other Questions â one concerning the issue of retirement age and the another one concerning the Kenya Railway line â were never answered. I would like to
Order! Order! I am sure the Prime Minister will clarify that. But the position is that when Questions are directed to the Office of the Prime Minister, he verifies them to see if they qualify to fall under his docket, and in terms of the provisions of the Standing Orders as they are. If they do not fall within his portfolio, then the Prime Minister passes on those Questions to the relevant Ministry or Government Department.
Indeed, we have received copies of letters from the Prime Ministerâs Office, redirecting some of those Questions to relevant Ministries. However, I will allow the Prime Minister to have the last word on this one.
Mr. Speaker, Sir. You are, indeed, right that there have been some Questions directed to my Office, which were not cross-cutting. They are Questions that should have been directed to the line Ministries. What my Office has done is to refer those Questions to the relevant Ministries for answers. If the hon. Member has not seen the Question on the Order Paper, he must know that, that is not the end of it. That Question is going to be answered by the relevant Minister.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. In particular, on the Question about the railway line, you will recall very well that when the Minister for Transport was answering it during the last Session, the Prime Minister stood and intervened. I have now brought the Question directly to the Prime Ministerâs Office. How come that now it belongs to the Ministry of Transport?
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The Prime Minister, being the supervisor and co-coordinator of all functions of Government Ministries and Departments, is it not fit that he answers Questions, even those relating to other dockets? If the Questioner considers a Question to be of such importance that the Prime Minister should respond to it with the authority of higher levels of Government---
Order! Order! Let us listen to the last point of order on this matter!
Mr. Isaac Ruto!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, since this is still the Prime Ministerâs Time, I believe that I can still ask if the answer to part âaâ of the Question is still not satisfactory, notwithstanding the practice on the public Statements---
Order! Order, Mr. Ruto! You will have to live within the Communication that I made, because that Communication was very carefully considered even before we made it. We may suggest improvements in the future but, for the moment, we must comply and live within that Communication.
Mr. Prime Minister, would you like to respond to the issues raised by Mr. C. Kilonzo and Ms. Karua?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is true that the last time Mr. C. Kilonzoâs Question came up, I intervened and provided some more information and asked that the matter be deferred. However, by doing so, I did not take over the responsibility of running the Ministry of Transport.
Regarding the question raised by Ms. Karua, it is true that the Prime Minister has higher authority. However, the Prime Minister co-ordinates and supervises functions of other Ministries. The Prime Minister does not run all the Ministries. If the Prime Minister is going to be answering Questions that should be answered by Ministers, then what would the Ministers be doing here?
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. According to what is on the Order Paper, today, we have a Motion under Order No.9. I have read the Report and I strongly feel that the same things the Right hon. Prime Minister is talking about should well be said during the debate on the Report of the Departmental Committee on Agriculture, Lands and Natural Resources on food security and maize shortage in the country. I, therefore, rise on a point of order under Standing Order No.77 to seek a clarification as to whether the Prime Minister is not out of order to anticipate debate Furthermore, are we not breaching the Standing Orders on account of being repetitive? Let us get to order. Let us wait for the debate. Let us discuss this matter when the Motion has been moved on the Floor for debate.
Order, Mr. Mungatana! As much as you want to suggest that what the Right hon. Prime Minister may be addressing will be covered by the Motion which is under Order No.9, you have bordered on breaching the rules with respect to anticipating debate. This is because the Prime Minister, in the Statement that he is making now, is limiting himself to the request which was made by an hon. Member in this House in relation to the maize that is supposed to have been disposed of, but was not. So, you, yourself, in your observation will be anticipating debate because we cannot assume that what the Prime Minister is going to say finally will be covering aspects that have been covered by the Report fully, or even for that matter, in part. You better hear the Prime Minister. I am glad you have raised that matter. The hon. Members who will be seeking clarifications will have to bear in mind that we still have Order No.9 to deal with matters pertaining to maize generally and fully. Mr. Prime Minister, also observe those restrictions.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
I have just given direction on this matter!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is not related to this matter?
How then will it be relevant if it is not related to that matter?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise on a point of order with a lot of reluctance. With all due respect to the Prime Minister, it has been the practice of this House that whenever a Minister stands to answer a Question or give a Ministerial Statement, the Minister starts by saying âa Member of Parliament from this and that constituency sought the Statementâ and so on. However, when the Prime Minister rose, he said, âa Member of Parliamentâ. I would like to know from him who âa Member of Parliamentâ in this case is.
Mr. Prime Minister, on the face of it, that is a genuine clarification being sought!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I was not in the House then, but I was told that Mr. Kiema Kilonzo sought the Statement. I am sure the hon. Member wanted the audience to know that he is the one who raised this matter!
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Although I did not want to interrupt the Prime Minister, you will agree with me that it was condescending on his part not to follow the practice and actually acknowledge the person who has asked the Question. I just want the Prime Minister to appreciate that we are hon. Members!
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Order, Mr. Ruto! This matter must come to an end. The Prime Ministerâs Time must come to an end at 3.45 p.m. Allow the Prime Minister to finish making his Statement so that you can seek clarifications.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wish hon. Members paid attention to what I am saying here because this is a very serious issue. Allegations have been made that some contaminated maize has been sold to Kenyans and that people are dying.
Proceed, Mr. Raila!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, Kenyans are entitled to get the information that I want to give. I also wish to lay on the Table other documents which show how this matter was processed by the National Cereals and Produce Board (NCPB), how the tender was issued and the companies that became successful, as exhibits. That is exhibit Nos.2, 3 and 4! The total consignment of maize that was imported was 163,000 tonnes plus or minus 10 per cent.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, on 17th November, 2008, the ship MV Fonarun Naree loaded with 20,810 metric tonnes of South African white maize in bulk was inspected at the Port of Maputo in Mozambique and issued with a certificate of conformity, of pre-export verification of conformity (PVOC) in the name of the Kenya Bureau of Standards (KEBS) for the Kenya Standards EAS2 of 2005 for maize. I will lay that certificate on Table. It is exhibit No.5!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, a bill of lading was also issued for the cargo in apparent good order and condition. I will also table the bill of lading.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. We have been having a very serious problem as Assistant Ministers whenever we travel abroad because we are considered to be actually assistants to the Ministers. Now you can see how the Prime Minister is behaving towards his Assistant Minister! This confirms clearly to the international community that we are really Assistant Ministers! He is just reading and stretching his hand out to his Assistant Minister even without looking at him! Is it really in order for the Prime Minister to behave that way?
Order! Order, hon. Members! There have been many rulings on this matter. Indeed, one can say there is a plethora of rulings on the matter as to whether or not an Assistant Minister is a Minister. As a matter of fact, the latest position is that, if you go to the Standing Orders, the Constitution as amended or to the National Accord and Reconciliation Act, âMinisterâ includes the President, Prime Minister, Deputy Prime Ministers, Ministers and Assistant Ministers so that Mr. Khangati, the Member for Kanduyi, is, in fact, a Minister. But by coincidence, he is assisting in the Prime Ministerâs Office. But, of course, I expect that the Prime Minister will treat his Assistant Minister with respect and decorum!
Please, proceed, Mr. Prime Minister!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, for the general information of hon. Members, I did not consider the task that Mr. Khangati is doing to be dishonourable. I would very gladly do the same thing to him if he were doing what I am doing right now!
Proceed, Mr. Prime Minister!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I know that hon. Members would like to ask a number of questions and, therefore, I have several documents that I want to lay on the Table. I just want to summarize the contents of those documents that I have. I have with me three different documents from the KEBS giving contradictory test results. One is saying that the cargo is unfit for human consumption but fit as animal feeds. The other one says that it is unfit for both. There is also another one that says it is fit for both. There is another test result from another company called Protecting and Indemnity (P & I) Kenya, Limited, which was hired. It is an independent testing authority, which has also produced a report saying âthe maize is fit for human consumptionâ. Mr. Speaker, Sir, faced with all these contradictions--- I need to add that I also received a letter from the Minister for Public Health and Sanitation accompanied by a certificate from the Government Chemist which was saying that this particular cargo was unfit for both human and animal consumption. Mr. Speaker, Sir, faced with these facts, I convened a meeting in my office which was attended by the Permanent Secretary, Ministry of Agriculture with the head of the Kenya Plant Health Inspection Service (KEPHIS), Permanent Secretary, Ministry of Industrialization with the head of Kenya Bureau of Standards (KEBS) and the Permanent Secretary, Ministry of Public Health and Sanitation accompanied by the Chief Government Chemist. At that meeting, we discussed these differing test results collectively. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I said that the credibility of our testing authorities was at stake. At that meeting, we said that since doubt had already been cast over this particular consignment, irrespective of the other test results that come out, this particular cargo should never be used for human consumption. We resolved that we send each Permanent Secretary and an officer from the respective testing authorities to the Port of Mombasa so that the truth could actually come out. These three Permanent Secretaries with their officials proceeded to Mombasa. We also appointed an independent testing authority, Intertek. Mr. Speaker, Sir, when they arrived at the Port of Mombasa, they found this cargo which had been discharged. This cargo was discharged because the ship had stayed at the Port for 35 days. The owner of the ship said he wanted the ship to move out. At that time, the National Cereals and Produce Board (NCPB) went to court and got an order to have the ship arrested and detained. The insurance company then went to court and eventually issued an indemnity so that the cargo could be discharged, for the ship to leave. Mr. Speaker, Sir, it was agreed that the cargo in the three compartments which had been certified to be okay should be discharged and released. But the others over which there was still some dispute were to be stored in a particular silo. This cargo was stored in that silo. We sent those officers to go and verify and have another test done. When they went there, samples were taken, but the Intertek tested and found that this cargo was fit for both human and animal consumption. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the SGS also carried out a test. I have all the results here and they show that this cargo was fit for human consumption. We had already passed a
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Order! Mr. Bifwoli, before I allow your point of order, I would want you to comply with the provisions of Standing Order No.75. I demand of you to indicate which Standing Order you are standing up pursuant to. You will then have to proceed and indicate what is out of order in accordance with the Standing Order that you cite. Note that, if you make a false point of order, you will be out of order! So, start from number one; which Standing Order.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am standing on the Standing Order which defines a Minister, the Prime Minister and an Assistant Minister. From that point, I can raise my issues.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Prime Minister has two Deputy Prime Ministers. It is very demeaning to use Assistant Ministers, as if they are there to carry papers. In your ruling, I want you to give us direction. Is that the type of work we are appointed to do? Are we appointed to carry papers?
Order, Mr. Bifwoli! That is not a matter for the Speaker to resolve! That is a matter for you to resolve in the Executive. So, you are addressing the wrong authority! Please, proceed, Mr. Prime Minister!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to confirm to the House that this cargo is being kept at the silos of Grain Bulk Handlers in Mombasa and is under the custody of the Customs Department. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I here table the certificate from the Customs which states clearly that they have this cargo of 6,254.5852 metric tonnes of white maize in silos numbers 10, 11 and 20.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, in conclusion, I wish to say the following: -
1. That the ad hoc committee chaired by the Prime Minister does not handle the modalities and logistics of procurement of maize.
Order, hon. Members! Hon. Members, particularly the Rt. Hon. Prime Minister, you realize that you have taken 30 minutes to issue that Statement. That, obviously, is very long and hardly leaves any time for Members to seek clarifications. I, therefore, want to direct the Rt. Hon. Prime Minister that in future, you try to issue your Statement within, at most, quarter of an hour so that there is room for interrogation. As it is, you have passed your time by ten minutes.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, you remember, we did not start exactly at 3.00 p.m.
We started at three minutes past three. Where are we now?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, you remember there was the Question Time, Points of Order, Statements and there were a lot of unnecessary interruptions.
Rt. Hon. Prime Minister, I am only urging you to be fair, so that we utilize this time productively. Now, we will take clarifications, beginning with Mr. K. Kilonzo!
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Order, Mr. Khangati!
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The Rt. Hon. Prime Minister, Raila Amolo Odinga has stood here today to mislead the House and Kenyans at large. He has conveniently taken documents, which will support or exonerate his personal and office involvement in this maize scam, as I will demonstrate now.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, with me is a letter from a Committee, which was appointed by none other than the hon. Prime Minister to investigate this scam of contaminated maize on 2d February, 2009. I want to table this letter.
Come to the gist of that letter.
I want to get to deal with the gist. This is very important---
Yes, I appreciate it is important, but come to the gist of the letter.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, this Committee says that after they reached Mombasa, they were taken through the relevant Government agencies who had tested the imported maize and by the end of business, were convinced that the maize was not fit for human consumption.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, when this team went there, they realized that there was a private company, which had been appointed by the Prime Ministerâs Office called Inter-Tech. They are saying the presence of the Inter-Tech at the Port seemed to have been deliberately and prearranged to appear like they were part of the sub-committee. So, this team objected and was even ready to go back to Nairobi. The team, therefore, visited silos. In the course, they had the privilege to see the silos purported to have been holding the rejected maize. They said: - âThe physical appearance of the maize sample from the particular silo was very clean compared to the earlier discolored sample provided by the Government agencies when we met at the Prime Ministerâs Office on 26th February, 2009. The team was very surprised at the variance and was, therefore, not in a position to tell whether the maize they were seeing was the same as they saw when they were with the Prime Minister.â Mr. Speaker, Sir, in conclusion---
Yes, move to conclude and seek your clarification.
They said in the conclusion:-
â Given the above scenario our conclusion, as a sub-committee is that: - (i) It was a big mistake to off-load and remove the maize from the ship in the absence of all Government agencies responsible for the inspections of the goods, including Government security forces before off-loading of the maize from the ship; (ii) If it was found necessary to have the disputed maize from the ship then it should have been taken to the Government warehouse under heavy security surveillance, but not a private warehouse as the position is currently; (iii) At the time of the removal of the maize from the ship, all Government agencies should have been involved to bear witness on the condition of maize at the time to rule out any doubt. Handling the maize under dispute
That is one clarification sought, rather long widened but all the same, you came to it eventually. Mr. Nyambati!
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Under which order!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, under Standing Order No.77; the one on repetitiveness. Is it Standing Order No. 77 or 79?
You stand when you are sure!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, going by your earlier guidance to---
Order, Ms. Odhiambo! Standing Order No.77 talks about anticipation of debate. It does not talk about repetition!
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. That is actually what I want.
That is what you wanted, but you have cited the wrong Order!
Standing Order No. 79, Mr. Speaker, Sir!
Standing Order No.79 is not 77! You are out of order!
Sorry! Could I stand under Standing Order No.79?
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity. I know that this has been raised. I want to raise it again. From the clarification that hon. C. Kilonzo sought, he has heavily relied upon a letter by one Dr. Mangâeli who is quoted---
Order! Order! Do you know what you are talking about?
Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I know what I am talking about!
Have you looked at those documents?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, who is quoted very extensively in the Report of the Departmental Committee on Agriculture, Livestock and Co-operative---
Order, hon. Odhiambo! I should verify. You are treading on dangerous grounds!
May I continue, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Hold your horse!
Order! Order! Ms. Odhiambo, the letter that Mr. K. Kilonzo read out is authored by the Permanent Secretary, Ministry of Industrialization. His name is Prof. John Lonyangapuo. So, Dr. Mangâeli is not the author of this letter. His name does not appear anywhere in this letter. To that extent, Ms. Odhiambo, you will have to apologize and withdraw. That has to go off the record!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I was actually interrupted before I finished. Can I finish?
I heard you clearly, Ms. Odhiambo!
Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir, what I meant was this: When I am wrong- --
Order! It is not about what you meant. It is about what I heard and the rest of the House heard. You must withdraw and apologize!
Yes, I will withdraw and apologize. Can I raise my point of order now?
No, you are out of order, Ms. Odhiambo! Do you really want to persist in this line?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, what I meant was this:
No, I heard you! Order, Ms. Odhiambo! Do you want to leave the matter at withdrawing and apologizing or do you want to pursue that line?
She has already apologized!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have already apologized!
Very well! Let the matter rest there.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is very clear that the Prime Minister is misleading this House. First of all, he is confusing us by laying on the Table very many documents. However, he failed to lay on the Table the most sensual letter, which has just been laid on the Table by Mr. K. Kilonzo. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the lives of Kenyans are at stake---
Order, Mr. Nyambati! What clarification are you seeking? We gave latitude to Mr. K. Kilonzo because he was the sponsor of that request. However, we will not extend that latitude to every other Member.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I need a clarification from the Prime Minister because he told us last time that the maize would be destroyed. I want a clarification as to whether that maize was destroyed so that we do not endanger the lives of Kenyans.
Very well! Anybody else who is interested?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Prime Minister told us that various agencies came up with different conclusions of the tests regarding the quality of the maize. What action has the Prime Minister taken against the pseudo-scientists who have been coming here with subjective conclusions to the tests, particularly with regard to what Justice Omondi was talking about last week in relation to liars for hire and expert witnesses? There are also pseudo-environmentalists and pseudo-scientists who are swindling people throughout the country.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, after listening to the Prime Minister, we realized that there was evidence of contradiction in the results we got either from the KEBS or the Government Chemist. As far as I understand it, Intertek is a private agency. Could the Prime Minister confirm why we were not able to reconfirm those results before releasing that maize to the silos we are talking about? Were all the agencies involved because there are a number of players representing the Government with regard to that maize as it was being transferred into the silos?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I believe this matter needs to be put to rest, given that lives of Kenyans are said to be at risk and many hon. Members are playing politics with the issue. A couple of days ago, a Minister told us that contaminated maize was being sold to Kenyans particularly in Eldoret. The maize was shown on television and it appeared to be yellow. I would like to know if this maize was yellow or white. I also want the Prime Minister to comment about the statements made by Minister of State for Special Programmes, Dr. Shaban, which were contradicting statements that had been made by another Minster. Which one of them is telling Kenyans the truth and which one of them was playing cheap politics?
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to know from the Prime Minister whether Kenya Bureau of Standards (KEBS), indeed, condemned the maize and ordered its reshipment to the country of origin or whether his office, in any way, interfered with the investigations done by the KEBS? I want to lay on the Table an affidavit, sworn and signed by the Managing Director of KEBS that clearly says that the Office of the Prime Minister used threats and coerced the KEBS to, indeed, accept this maize to be used in this country.
Order, Mr. Mungatana! Order, Dr. Nuh! I made a Communication this afternoon. In that Communication, I laid out how we would conduct business of the House in relation to Statements made by the Prime Minister. I, among other things, said that we would take five clarifications utmost and we have already done that. As much as we are in the formative stage and as much as I know that this matter attracts a lot of interest, it is a matter that is in the public interest; I think we must live within those rules. If hon. Members feel that they want to pursue this matter further, the Standing Orders have provisions that will enable you to do so. However, let us now take the responses from the Prime Minister. I am afraid that the matter will have to rest there.
On a point of information Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Order! I have given orders, Mr. Mungatana, which I think it is important that we comply with.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to say that I admire the way the Prime Minister has sought to defend himself and explain to the country what is happening. However, in the process, he has given a bulky explanation and laid on the Table bulky documents. I am a very bright chap and I have not been able to go through these documents. I am requesting, genuinely, that the Speaker defers this matter to next week, Wednesday, so as to give the House time to scrutinize these documents and the Prime Minister to get further clarifications on this matter. This is not enough time.
Order, hon. Members! That, on the face of it, is a genuine request. However, hon. Members will note that this matter is coming up for the second time. It was deferred from last week to today. I am not about to defer this matter further. We will
On a point of information, Mr. Speaker, Sir!
Is it a point of order? If you look at your Standing Orders, you will see that you cannot raise a point of information as a matter of course. You can only raise a point of information if an hon. Member contributing or who has immediately made a contribution, before you stood on that point of information, agrees to be informed. So, whom do you want to inform?
On a point of information, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Who do you want to inform?
I want to inform Mr. J.I. Kamau.
Mr. J.I. Kamau, do you want to be informed?
No, Mr. Speaker, Sir!
Mr. J.I. Kamau does not want to be informed! He does not even know what you are talking about!
Proceed, Mr. Prime Minister!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, indeed, I take the work of this House very seriously. I know that hon. Members are genuinely concerned about the safety of our people. That shows the love that they have for the people of Kenya, but I want to assure hon. Members that they do not love Kenyans more than I do.
Mr. K. Kilonzo is talking about maize having been released from the Port of Mombasa to the market. It is not easy to release quantities like 6,000 tonnes of maize. That is 50,000 bags of maize. More importantly, I have a letter from the Commissioner General of Kenya Revenue Authority (KRA), Mr. Waweru, which is dated 13th May, 2009 confirming that this cargo is still at the Port of Mombasa. I really want hon. Members to be honest to the people of Kenya and not to play politics. Mr. Nyambati talked about destroying maize. I have explained the reason why we cannot destroy this maize because it is now the property of the insurance company. I have also said that it will be destroyed in accordance with the health regulations of our country and it will be public. Mr. Speaker, Sir, Mr. Twaha, wanted to know what action has been taken. I said that the credibility of our testing authorities is in question and that, this is an issue that we must take very seriously. We should not play politics with this. When it comes to the Kenya Bureau of Standards (KEBS), I know something because I was one of the first professional officers who joined the KEBS. I know that they cannot issue more than one certificate. Once they have issued a certificate saying that it is unfit for human consumption but fit for animal consumption, somebody would remove it and go and supply it to animals. There is nothing like a provisional certificate and another one issued later. That is why I was surprised by KEBS and I asked what they had come to because I know how we used to do those things when I was working there. The KEBS must be like Caesarâs wife. We cannot afford to have a situation where the quality of a consignment of 6,000 tonnes is in doubt. Mr. J.I. Kamau produced an affidavit and in my view, it is similar to the letter from Prof. ole Lanyangapuo. These are people who are trying to defend themselves. I am pleading with this House to take this matter very seriously because I know what I am
Order, hon. Members! From the Communication that I made earlier, this matter must come to rest. If hon. Members have further interest in the matter, the Standing Orders give you room to revisit it and the House will deal with it accordingly.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. He has not responded to my clarification!
Okay! What has not been responded to will be valid.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Prime Minister is doing his level best not to address the contents of this letter from the sub-committee. He has now started character-assassinating some of the people who were appointed to this sub-committee. You should not allow any hon. Member, under the privilege of this House, to intimidate civil servants. Prof. John Lonyangapuo a person I do not know, is a gallant son of this country. He has the guts to write such a report but there are many others who know what is happening but cannot talk because they fear being intimidated by politicians. That is why we have seen them going to court and the politicians are going home scot-free.
Order! Order, Mr. K. Kilonzo! You have stood on a valid point of order and I appreciate it. What issues did you seek clarification on, that the Prime Minister has not covered? Just be precise, indicate and then the Prime Minister will respond.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want the Prime Minister to give consent to this letter; that he is aware of this sub-committee and that these findings were brought to him and in view of the findings that he has contradicted here, would he consider, as the Prime Minister of the country, allowing an independent body of Kenyans to go and look at this matter further because it touches on the lives of Kenyans?
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Order, Mr. Ogindo! Mr. K. Kilonzo is on a point of order and you cannot rise on a point of order when another point of order is current!
Mr. Prime Minister!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I thought that I had answered the issue that the hon. Member is raising. This is with regard to a letter which was written by the Permanent Secretary, Ministry of Industrialization. That I am the one who appointed the committee but this letter is not even copied to me. It was addressed to Mr. Muthaura who was not even concerned.
Order hon. Members! This matter must rest there! We must move to the next Order. The Chair will not continue to revisit this matter. I have given direction on the matter more than once and I have given indulgence as far as I can. I have also indicated to hon. Members that if they wish to explore the matter beyond where it has reached, the Standing Orders have enabling provisions for you to do so.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. This is on a different issue.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am seeking the indulgence of the House to make a Personal Statement under Standing Order No.76.
Yes, you may proceed, because you had intimated that to me earlier!
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I am concerned about the reports in the print and electronic media today that indicate that I and my family upcountry are under threat from vigilantes. It is curious that this information, I gather, was given by the Kerugoya Police to the Press. They have not given such information to me. Mr. Speaker, Sir, if, indeed, I am under threat, who are those vigilantes? What action has the police taken against such vigilantes?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I was in my rural home over the weekend. On Monday, I held a meeting in my constituency office with over 300 members of my constituency on matters of security. The District Officer and the Officer Commanding Station (OCS) were present. Why was the information about a security threat to me not availed to them? If, indeed, the police or the Government is concerned about my security, how come my security detail and my driver were withdrawn immediately I resigned, although I know some former Ministers who never made it through the elections of 2007, and are still retaining their security detail and drivers, including Government vehicles with private
Mr. Speaker, Sir---
What is it, Mr. Ojode?
But, Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is a Personal Statement!
Order, Mr. Ojode! I do not know what you want to react to, because this is a Personal Statement under Standing Order No.76, and it is not open to debate! It is not open to comments.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, with your permission, I want to table a copy of a letter I have written to the Minister of State in charge of Provincial Administration and Internal Security. That may now give the Assistant Minister time to respond.
That is fair enough!
It is okay, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I just wanted to assure the---
Just live within the rules; no debate, no comments!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, on behalf of hon. Members of the Joint Committee on Finance, Planning and Trade and the Budget Committee, I wish to take this opportunity to present the Report of the Joint Committee and recommendations for action.
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, after the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance laid the Supplementary Estimates on the Table on 22nd April, 2009, they were debated and approved by this Parliament on 29th April, 2009. However, on 6th May, 2009, hon. Imanyara sought a Ministerial Statement from the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance concerning a figure of Kshs9.2 billion, which was shown as having been falsified in the documents. Hon. Members sought the Speakerâs guidance on what should be done with the documents that had been laid on the Table by the Government in the House which contained discrepancies. The Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance---
Order! Order, Mr. Okemo! You need to move the Motion first! You are already debating it!
Thank you very much, Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, for that guidance. I beg to move the following Motion:-
THAT, this House adopts the Report of the Joint Committee on Finance, Planning and Trade and the Budget Committee on the discrepancies contained in the Supplementary Estimates of Financial year 2008/2009 laid on the Table of the House on Wednesday 13th May, 2009 (Morning Sitting).
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, as I was explaining earlier, after the laying of the Supplementary Estimates on the Table on 22nd April, 2009 by the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance, they were debated and approved by this Parliament on 29th April, 2009. However, on 6th May, 2009, hon. Imanyara sought a Ministerial Statement from the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance concerning a figure of Kshs9.2 billion, which was shown as having been falsified in the documents. Hon. Members sought the Speakerâs guidance on what should be done with the documents which, when they were laid on the Table by the Government in the House, contained discrepancies. The Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance issued a Ministerial Statement on
Thank you, Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker. I rise to second this Motion. Allow me to say this from the onset. I would like to implore on my fellow hon. Members that we are in this House more or less like the Board of Directors of this nation. I want to urge hon. Members to engage more often in issues that will provide light to this country more than the âheatâ that we feel. What we have before the House is as a result of query that sought to determine whether there were discrepancies and if, perhaps, that could have led to funds being misapplied.
Where figures are involved, you can only validate them using figures. You cannot validate figures with words. As has been articulated by my Co-Chairman, hon. Okemo, we endeavoured to find out and indeed, we found out and we are confirming to this
Mr. Ogindo, do not anticipate tomorrowâs debate. Please, concentrate on the debate before you.
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, I have left that line. I want to urge hon. Members that this was very important and I know it was of much interest to the country at large. Too much heat does not serve this nation. We would achieve much if we could expend our energies on showing light to this nation. With those few remarks, I beg to second.
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, I rise to support this Motion because it is a Motion whose background, as read out here by the Chair of the Joint Committee and supported by the Vice-Chairman, gives fairly a good background on the amount of the work that the Committee has put into ascertaining the truth of this matter. The approach adopted by the Committee, and in particular their outlook regarding the circumstances, is very mature and noble. Since we know these matters, it would be wrong for any one of us to pretend that there can never be mistakes because, as it is universally known, to err is human. Added to that human error, we are now at the age where we have to use technology. We buy systems, whether we understand them or not, which have been devised by people to keep their devices secret. They do not want their knowledge to be known by anybody else. They will come and sell us those systems with the assurance that when it is triggered, it will perform what we want. I think we have had this in our Treasury where information technology has taken over. As this case will show, the technology can also go wrong. In my opinion, gathering from what I heard, that is what has happened. I support the recommendations of the Committee, although I have a little misgiving as to whether we should throw good money after bad money. The audit arises under circumstances which--- What I am trying to say is that we have confidence in the Committee. They have done a very good job. Why do they want an audit which would imply that they are not confident about what they did? Let us spare that money and trust the Committee, which is free any time to look at the figures.
On a point of information, Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker.
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, let me be informed.
The Minister wants the information!
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, the whole essence of a forensic audit is to determine whether what we are using as a Budget programme is, indeed, reliable. Secondly, it is to determine through reconciliation, which we could not do because of shortage of time and lack of expertise, whether funds could have been misapplied.
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, I understand all that but I am trying to point out that where a programme has been developed by a particular information technology group, they would rather withdraw their system all together than have it subjected to the examination of their rivals. I am sure those hon. Members who are in that business know what I am
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, I rise to support the adoption of this Report. This Report has been very much awaited. A lot has been said in the last one week as to what to expect. As a member of this Committee, I want to begin by saying that the Committee that sat through these deliberations for about five consecutive days did a very good job. Therefore, we came here unanimous. Our recommendations are supported by all of us. This is because this country needs to move forward. We need to occasion the Supplementary Estimates so that certain things can take place. Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, I want to say a few things. There has been an impression created that some Members of Parliament were baying for the blood of the Minister for Finance. In this country, nothing happens for nothing. If anything happens, no junior person can make a mistake, all the time we have to blame each other, PNU, ODM and all that. It is a shame for this country that even as the Committee was discussing this issue, there were meetings being held as to how to protect the Minister for Finance. Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, the Minister had admitted that there were discrepancies. Therefore, the work of the Committee was to try and see how it is that there could be an error of over Kshs10 billion in the Supplementary Estimates. I want to say here and now that, that is not a normal error. I have worked with computers and I know that, that is a deliberate error. I want to thank hon. Imanyara for having seen the problem. I want to also thank whoever gave him that information. As Kenyans, we must be grateful to whistle-blowers so that we do not defraud ourselves every now and then.
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, this Committee did not have the ability other than knowing that it was the people below the Permanent Secretary and Minister who were trying to do something and their 40th day arrived. They may never have intended it, but why commit a Kshs10 billion error if you do not intend to commit fraud? That is why we are recommending a forensic audit of the budget process. We are saying that the way it has been done is open to fraud. Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, a former Minister appeared before us and said that one time in her Ministry, she was called by somebody from the Treasury and told, "In your Vote there is an extra Kshs140 million, spend it with so and so". If you analyse this scenario, it creates such a possibility. That is why we are saying that instead of baying for anybody's blood unnecessarily, it is time for this country to move on. Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, I want to plead with the President to see the future of this country. We must open up the Budget making process. Parliament is the representative of the people; we must know what is going to happen and how it is going to happen. I want to plead with my friend, hon. Uhuru Kenyatta that, you are a Kenyan of
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, I also want to thank the Chairman of the Joint Committee on Finance, Planning and Trade and the Budget Committee for bringing this Motion and Report before Parliament. Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, when we were debating the Supplementary Estimates, I did caution that the Minister must start thinking outside the box. I did caution that this House must be careful that we will not be ruled by bureaucrats. I did caution that things can go wrong and Ministers are told: "Just sign here". I was talking without
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker. I rise on a point of order on the remarks made about handing over. I handed over the Treasury to the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance and I know I did it!
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, I think we need to get serious about this matter. I am not talking about taking an office and a chair in the middle of cameras and say you have handed over. That is why I have, in fact, filed a Motion in this House calling for proper processes of handing over. What has happened to hon. Uhuru Kenyatta can happen to anyone of us here. Today, if you are moved from one Ministry to another without even spending ten days in the Cabinet office to understand these processes of advising the President, then we are not fair to ourselves. This kind of problems will recur in future. We need to ask ourselves: What can we learn from what has happened here? It is not about the hon. Minister. What can we, as a country, do to make our institutions? It is with those kind of remarks, that I want to support this Report. We need to look at the mistakes that have been made. We do not need to personalize these things. We need to look at what lessons we can learn, so that the country can move forward.
We have said here before and I would repeat that there is a serious credit crunch within the cash economy right now. Two weeks ago, the Central Bank of Kenya was forced to pump Kshs32 billion into the money market to stabilize the situation. The Treasury was forced to go into an overdraft of Kshs6.9 billion. We need to help the Minister to get everything correct, so that we quickly pass and adopt what we have agreed here today. We expect the Minister to give explanations, so that we pass the Supplementary Estimates and we move forward. We should learn from the mistakes we have made and move forward.
Madam Temporary Speaker, looking at this Report itself, there are some things that are not clear. We, as Parliament, have said there are things, which are not clear. There are problems with the Supplementary Estimates. I would like the Minister to explain to us what happed. If you look at the attachment at the end of this Report that has been tabled, we are all aware and we have been told that some Kshs10 billion error exists. There are things attached there. There are descriptions such as basic salary and then figures are given, for example, basic wage, temporary employees, personal allowance and all these things. No figures are attached to this Report. There is no correlation that is being given between what we are talking about, the problem that has existed and what Parliament is seeking to cure. To me, we are not any better than what the Minister did before this House. So, I would ask the Chair to also explain to this House, so that the House can clearly appreciate what is going on even in this Report.
Thank you, Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir for giving me this opportunity.
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker. The bulk of us are not finance people. I think hon. Mungatana raised a very important and pertinent issue. There are descriptions that have got chapters, category, Item, sub-item and so on. When we look at the two other lists at the end, all we see is the Vote number. We want either the Chairman or his deputy to take us through this to inform us how essentially these things are put in there. These personal allowance, utilities, supplies and the list goes on, so that we relate them to what we are trying to look at and understand.
What is your point of order!
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, my point of order is whether someone can take us through this. The Committee, for it to show that it has done a good job, must educate us on how to relate these items. I am sure you do not even understand it yourself. None of us understand.
Hon. Maalim, I would take note of that. I think the Chair has taken note. He will respond to your concerns.
Thank you, Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, for giving me this chance to contribute and support the adoption of this Report.
Honestly, I quite agree with Members of Parliament who have expressed some serious maturity in terms of handling this matter. We have a culture of baying for peopleâs blood. Some of us are quick at judging and passing sentences.
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker. Did you hear my friend, hon. Assistant Minister for Trade, Mr. Omingo, making a claim that we have demonstrated a certain degree of maturity, implying that we have always been immature and baying for peopleâs blood? Is he in order? Is it Parliamentary?
Mr. Omingo continue and do a clarification of that point of order.
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, I withdraw the misunderstanding. What I meant to say is that on this matter this Parliament has stood together in terms of addressing national issue that affects our people as opposed to politicizing it. I think some Members have said it before and I do not know why it came out differently when I had said it in the ears of my good friend. But nonetheless, I want to proceed.
Thank you, Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, for giving me this opportunity. I want to contribute quickly and briefly so as to allow other Members to also contribute. I want to start by supporting this Report by the Departmental Committee on Finance, Planning and Trade and the Budget Committee mainly because I believe that the work done by the Parliamentary Committees should be respected by the Members of this House. I believe that Members who sit in Committees to look into serious issues do not do it in vain. I am, therefore, supporting it partly because these are two Committees that are highly respected in this House. The second reason why I support this Report is because we must stop personalizing issues. For me, it is not the integrity of the Minister that should be held into account but the integrity of the institution of the Treasury. That must be clear. We are dealing with a Treasury that Kenyans do not trust. That is a crisis that the Government must take seriously. The Minister must, therefore, in my opinion, following the recommendations of the Committee, overhaul the Treasury, especially those who are found to have been part of the process of bringing the Supplementary Budget to this House. Why do I say this? This is because there are only two Ministries that have executive powers; that is the Ministry of Finance and the Ministry of Local Government. I do not think they were given those powers in the Constitution very lightly. It was because of the seriousness that their work entails. Therefore, there must be responsibility that comes with the executive powers. We may not look today at the personality of the Minister but that is the reason why those Ministries are critical in appointment. You must make sure that when you are appointed to lead any of these two Ministries, either the Ministry of Finance or the Ministry of Local Government, where you exercise some form of executive powers, then you must be ready to take responsibility. For the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance to admit that he was not aware of that kind of manipulation of figures, that raises the question about who really is in charge of the Treasury. Is it the Minister or the technocrats who run that Ministry? It is dangerous for us, as a country, to have technocrats running this country and keeping Ministers unaware of what is really going on. This kind of fraud would happen in Ministries where critical lives could be lost. I want to give an example. If this had happened in the Ministry of Medical Services and a certain drug, that must go through some tests was brought into this country and the Minister was not made aware that probably the drug was not put under the necessary tests, he might not realize that he was sabotaged by his juniors. We must take responsibility of our Ministries. If there is any sabotage within the Civil Service, those concerned, must, without any hesitation, be
Thank you, Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker. I want to support this Motion very strongly. I want to thank the two very able Chairmen of the two Committees, Finance, Planning and Trade Committee and the Budget Committee for coming together and giving us this wonderful Report, which is well balanced. Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, I also wish to thank the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance because he gave the Committee support and data relating to the issue at hand. He also supported them to investigate this issue which nearly became a big scandal. I really want to thank Mr. Imanyara. I think we need to have honest good people in this country. We should start examining ourselves. We might not know this but out there, this Parliament has now got a good name. They talk about this group of people and these Members, together with the Treasury, have done a credible and transparent job.
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, recently we have been criticized by the public so much. In this Parliament we have been grouping like birds of a feather. When a person of your community is criticized or accused of committing a crime of fraud, we all gang up to protect him even if he has âeatenâ. This is not the case for this particular Committee. They have done their best and we commend them for that. We have to build trust in this House. We have to be trusted by the public. Recently, we have been targets of criticism by the public and other societies because they say that we have refused to pay taxes, which is probably not quite right because we are trying to get a way of paying taxes like everybody else. We have also been accused of being the source of fraud and embezzlement of public funds. If you look at the polls that were produced the other day, they showed that we were rated at the bottom of the ladder. That is because we have been accused that some of us, apart from ganging up to support someone because he comes from your community, a number of us are âmouths for hireâ. Anybody can hire us inside and outside this place to say what is not right so that we can support one of our own, or our political party. I am very happy that we have all been watching and this Committee has worked very hard even at night to be able to produce a good report.
Thank you, Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker---
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker. We have some hon. Members who are members of that Committee. I think it is high time that those hon. Members who are not in that Committee could be given a chance to contribute to the Motion. Otherwise, some of the people who are now rising up like Mr. Mbadi---
Oh! He is not a Member?
Thank you, Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker. I think because I am an accountant, he assumes that I am in the Committee on Finance, Planning and Trade and the Budget Committee. But I am not!
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute towards the adoption of this Report by the joint Committees. I support the adoption of this Report of the Committee basically because of two reasons. Number one, I am an accountant, and looking at those books, those two Committees virtually did not have enough time to probe and come to the gist of this matter. So, I agree with the recommendation that an independent forensic audit needs to be carried out to really determine whether there was an attempt by the Treasury to defraud the people of this country.
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, I want to put it this way. The amount that is being talked about here is over Kshs10 billion. That is a lot of money compared to our total Budget. But I want to mention â and, maybe, this is something that has missed the eyes of--- No one has talked about. Out of the bulk of that Kshs10 billion, Kshs8 billion
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker. Due to the interest and enthusiasm generated by this Motion, I would like to suggest that we reduce the time for contribution to five minutes rather than 10 minutes, so that we can have many of us contributing.
You are out of order, Mr. Njuguna. That is the discretion of the hon. Members. This is a Motion that is open.
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, I was saying before I was interrupted by my friend that if the Kenyan Government was being financed by a donor, it would completely miss the donor funds. The Kenyan public has also a right to question whether they should continue financing the Kenya Government if such mistakes can appear in the budget estimates. I want to conclude by telling my colleagues that we should help the Deputy Minister and Minister for Finance. Let us not come here and try to please him. The mistake was committed which is unacceptable. He should take responsibility, apologize to this House and tell us that he presented wrong figures. The mistakes were committed in his Ministry. He will take action and we move on from now. Just sitting there and saying that we are playing politics, is not fair. Politics did not introduce the over Kshs10 billion in the budget. The Kshs10 billion in the budget was introduced by the Treasury.
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker. I would not want to interrupt my good friend, but he is becoming repetitive. This week the Chair affirmed the need for hon. Members not to be repetitive.
Mr. Mbadi, could you move forward.
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, sometimes repetitive may mean emphasis. If you want to emphasize a point you have to repeat it. My good friend, if I wanted you to get it properly, I have to repeat it.
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, that notwithstanding, I think I have made my contribution. I am going to support the adoption of this Report, but I still believe that a lot needs to be done to unearth what really happened.
With those remarks, I beg to support.
Mr. Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance!
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity. I will begin by saying that I also rise to support this Report.
As I do so, I would like to take the opportunity to thank the Members of the Joint Committee for the good work they have done throughout the weekend. I would also like to take the opportunity to thank the Treasury officials, who equally worked overtime to facilitate the conclusion we have arrived at.
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, we did have a session with the Joint Committee on Monday. After long deliberations, we agreed that whereas there was a problem with the printed column, that problem did not amount to a fraud or result in any loss of taxpayersâ money. That is the situation that was re-confirmed by the Controller and Auditor-General.
On our own initiative, and to ensure that there was no problem, we invited the resident representative of the International Monetary Fund (IMF) to come and go through the system and satisfy himself. In fact, we want them to continue and do an even further in-depth study. Why do I say this? As the Minister in charge of Treasury, I would like to present the Treasuryâs position that we have no intention of misusing a single cent of the Kenyan taxpayersâ money.
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, I want to say that, towards this end, the Treasury is ready to work closely with Parliament. At this stage, I would want to say that had we handled this matter a little differently, we would have made a lot of progress in a very short time, and been able to get to the bottom of what the problem was.
Mr. Ogindo mentioned that I reacted angrily at hon. Imanyara. Indeed, I did. I did not react angrily at hon. Imanyara because I was trying to prevent him from exercising his democratic right. I reacted angrily at him because of the inference that a âmonstrous fraudâ had been committed. In responding to the request for a Ministerial Statement, we responded to a request that indicated that there was massive fraud.
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, had Mr. Imanyara pointed out â indeed, he was correct - that there were discrepancies or inconsistencies from day one, instead of chasing âghostsâ, we would have been able to get straight into the matter of where the problem was. Why do I say this? I say this because sometimes, maybe, as Parliamentarians, we are our own worst enemies. We tend to believe that it is a combative way that gets results. However, I would like to encourage this House to believe that we can achieve even greater results for the people of this Republic if we work in partnership. There was no intention whatsoever to hide anything. As we move forward, I would like to encourage Parliament to be more actively engaged in the Budget-making process. After all, that process does not belong to an individual. However, we must do it as partners. As representatives of the people, you have a responsibility to ensure that those monies are spent well and that, indeed, we have equity even in distribution. In order to do that, we must see the Treasury not necessarily as an enemy or a boggy that in every single instance when something happens, it is automatic that there is fraud, scandal, corruption and so on. Yes, there may be, but, please, give us time before making the allegations so that it can be substantiated correctly whether, indeed, a crime has been committed before you hang the innocent.
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, courtesy of the confusion, we have treated Kenyans to a media circus. We have been told that Kshs9 billion has gone missing. The
It is not true!
It is true, Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker! Should I name names?
It is not true!
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, indeed, we need to develop a culture where we understand that the Treasury should work for all Kenyans equally. It is not a question of one community or another but it is a question â this is what I would encourage hon. Members to encourage me to do â to ensure that we get the very best Kenyans in the Treasury, which is the heart of the nation. It should not be a question of who comes from where but the very best, capable of protecting the interests and assets of the people of this Republic.
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker. Is the Minister in order to tell us that the Treasury will be hiring people based on performance
Ms. Odhiambo, what you have said is correct but the Minister said that he is encouraging us and not that he is going to hire.
Thank you for that correction, Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker. I said what this House should be encouraging me to do â I think those are my words â is to ensure that we hire the very best that this country has to offer. In conclusion, I want to once again reiterate that not a single Kenyan shilling has been lost. I would equally want to reiterate that the Motion and the Supplementary Appropriations Bill are also equally correct. Investigations are ongoing to establish what caused the problem. Again, I want to reassure this House that I intend to take serious action against those who may have been involved, either through lapse or intention. Also, we have already moved to ensure that the Budget Department is going to be treated exactly the same way as the Directorate of Economic Affairs and it will become now a sealed area with no further access and completely secure from outside interference. That is something that is already underway.
Lastly and in conclusion, I want to reiterate that, as the Minister in charge of the Treasury, I am ready to work for this House but let it be on the basis of partnership and not untoward confrontation.
Towards that end, we will both be able to serve the best interests of the people of this country and ensure that we achieve our developmental agenda as envisioned in our Vision 2030 of a middle income economy by 2030, with a 10 per cent growth rate within five years.
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker. I listened to the Minister very carefully and he has failed to give an apology to Kenyans. At least on the minimum, it is important for him to say, "There is a mistake, I am sorry and we are going to correct it". He has not done that. Is he in order?
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker. I rise under Standing Order No.86 (1). I have been here since this debate started and every Member who has stood up to speak has supported the Motion. Nobody has had a contrary view. Could the mover be called upon to reply so that we can adopt the Report?
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, I am tempted to say, "move" but I think there are issues that were raised and I was asked to respond to. Because of lack of time and people look tired, I will invite those Members who do not understand---
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker. I think the hon. Member on the Floor is out of order. Hon. Members do not get "tired"!
Yes. Mr. Chris Okemo, we also have business tomorrow. Therefore, hon. Members are not tired and are ready to continue with this Motion tomorrow, unless you close it.
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, since Members of Parliament do not get tired and they also do not get exhausted, but they still want the mover to hasten the reply, I beg to move.
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to move: - THAT, this House adopts the Report of the Departmental Committee on Agriculture, Lands and Natural Resources on Food Security and Maize Shortage in the country laid on the Table of the House on Thursday 30th April, 2009.
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, in moving this Motion, I am fully conscious that tonight, over ten million Kenyans, including those living in this City, will sleep hungry. About 3.2 million people will not have dinner tonight. This includes another two million people in the rural areas, who are not covered under the Emergency Operation Programme (EMOP). Another three million people in urban and pre-urban areas including Kibera and other slums around this city, as well as 1.5 million school-going children whose parents are jobless, will also sleep hungry as a result of the maize scam. A total of 150,000 Internally Displaced Persons (IDPs) are almost permanently dependant on well-wishers and the Government.
I will begin with the story of maize, so that hon. Members can walk with me at the same pace. As early as 2007 and as late as May, 2008, Kenya was food sufficient. We received, in the Committee, information to the effect that in 2007, despite our problems, farmers did us proud and we had 3.7 billion bags of maize. The Permanent Secretary, Ministry of Agriculture, confirmed this position. But in February, when Members of this Committee were reviewing the effects of the post-election violence, we had 23 million
Hon. Members, it is now time for the interruption of business. The House, is, therefore, adjourned until tomorrow Thursday, 14th May, 2009 at 2.30 p.m.
The House rose at 6.30 p.m.