Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wish to give Notice of the following Motion:- THAT, aware that in the recruiting of officers into the disciplined forces, the following heights requirements apply:- Armed forces - 5 feet 3 inches for both men and women, regular police - 5 feet 9 inches for policemen and 5 feet 3 inches for policewomen and in the Administration Police, 5 feet 8 inches for men and 5 feet and 3 inches for women; and concerned that this requirement is discriminative and is not within any legal framework; this House urges the Government
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wish to give notice of the following Motion:- THAT, the House adopts the report of the Kenyan Delegation to the 53rd Session of the Executive Council and the 31st Conference of the African Parliamentary Union (APU) held in Kampala, Uganda, on 25th to 30th November, 2008.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister for Livestock Development the following Question by Private Notice. (a) Is the Minister aware of the existence of the outbreak of a disease that is killing cattle in the Mara Area of Narok South District? (b) Could the Minister give the identity of the disease? (c) What is the Ministry doing to contain the disease?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) Yes, I am aware that there was a disease outbreak which killed 400 head of cattle at a place called Aitong and Marianti in Mara Division of Narok South. (b) On 24th April, 2009, farmers in Mara Division, Narok South District, reported an outbreak and a team of technical officers from the Department of Veterinary Service went and collected samples from the affected animals. The samples were taken to Kericho Veterinary Investigation Laboratory for testing, where the disease was confirmed to be East Coast Fever. Since last year, that particular division and the whole of Narok South District, have been experiencing a severe drought and that has forced livestock farmers to move in search of pasture and water to graze their animals within the Maasai Mara National Park. In the process, the said livestock has been exposed to ticks, which transmit East Coast Fever from wild animals to livestock. (c) Immediately the disease was confirmed by the Department of Veterinary Service, the Ministry advised the livestock owners to treat their animals against East Coast Fever and to undertake tick control measures by dipping or spraying their animals with the appropriate acaricides. The Ministry has issued drugs and sent enough personnel and a zoologist to go and treat the affected animals with a particular acaricide known as Dominex.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, these are some of the surprises that we continue getting in this House. The Assistant Minister is reading a different answer from the one that he has given to me! But I want to interrogate him on the one that I have. In the answer that I have here, the Assistant Minister is talking about the death of livestock and not about the existence of the disease. I have asked him to confirm whether the department is aware that there is a mysterious disease that is killing livestock in the Mara region, which is related to the interaction between the wildebeest and cattle in the region. Could he confirm the existence of that mysterious disease? It is not East Coast Fever as he said!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, we have confirmed that there is an outbreak of a disease in the Mara Division of Narok South District. That disease has been confirmed by the death of 400 herd of cattle at Aitong and Marianti in the same division. The laboratory tests at the Kericho Veterinary Laboratory and at our laboratory at Kabete have confirmed that the disease is East Coast Fever.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I live around national parks and, in particular Meru and Sanath National Parks. Around those areas, because of the wild animals in the national parks, the spread of tsetse flies is very high. In spite of the fact that the Ministry has, perhaps, done some work in a number of areas, to try and contain East Coast Fever, it has continued to spread because the people who are responsible for wildlife management have not been keen in eradicating the source of the problem. What is the Ministry doing to liaise with the Kenya Wildlife Service (KWS) to ensure that the problem of East Coast Fever is eradicated once and for all?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I agree with the hon. Member that the contact between wild animals and livestock in terms of disease control is a major challenge to the Department of Veterinary Service and the Ministry of Livestock Development. We have advised our farmers, and mainly those who have ranches along national parks, that this is our great danger. I am sure the Kenya Wildlife Service (KWS), through the Ministry of Forestry and Wildlife, will come up with a wildlife policy that will address all these issues. Along the same line, yes, there are areas in this country that are tsetse fly-prone. We are talking of Lambwe Valley, Lake Bogoria Basin, Meru National Park and Lamu Boni Forest. I am sure hon. Members are aware that there is a Pan-African Tsetse Fly
Mr. Speaker, Sir, that condition is malignant catarrh fever (MCF). It is age-long. Could the Assistant Minister tell us what the Government is specifically doing in terms of research so that they can control that disease?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want the hon. Member to repeat exactly what type of disease he is talking about.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is a disease associated with an animal called
I am just being simplistic! Ingati is the wildebeest and they come around when they give birth. The disease causes thorough erosion of the internal mucus. It is called malignant catarrh fever.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have understood the disease the hon. Member is talking about but I want to assure him that he should not be worried. It is not a threat- related disease. It is not a disease that poses a big threat to the livestock sector like Rinderpest, PPR and the Rift Valley Fever (RVF) but I can assure you that the research institutions under the Ministry of Livestock Development and the Kenya Agricultural Research Institute (KARI) are handling that emerging disease that comes is transmitted from wildlife to livestock.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is the Assistant Minister in order to say that this disease is not a threat while we have lost animals in their thousands in this particular region I am talking about?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think we are not aware of any disease that has wiped out thousands of animals in this country. If that was the case, then I do not think I should have been an Assistant Minister in that Ministry! For Mara South, Marianti and Narok South in general, the disease that has been reported, confirmed, diagnosed and is being treated in the hon. Memberâs constituency, is the East Coast Fever (ECF).
Mr. Speaker, Sir, from the answer that the Assistant Minister has given, he has confirmed that he has sent investigators to the area and that they are going to complete their investigations in two weeksâ time. Is this the correct position?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I do not want to go round and round. I said the disease has been identified, diagnosed, confirmed and is being treated. I am sure that both our teams, the laboratory technicians and the general veterinary surgeons, are on the ground and the disease has been contained.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The Assistant Minister is talking about the wrong disease! The ECF is a known vector-borne disease but what we are talking about is as a result of births by the wildebeest; the placenta and the amniotic fluid, which are the cause of this problem and any cow that grazes on that particular point dies! Could the Assistant Minister undertake research to deal with this disease because that is not the issue? We have vaccines for ECF but there is no particular one for this disease. Could he also compensate the members of the community who have lost their cattle?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the disease was confirmed as that of theileriosis which is a scientific name for ECF and it is spread by ticks. It is treated by through
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The Assistant Minister is constantly giving wrong answers! Is he in order to continue referring to the ECF instead of malignant catarrh fever? They are completely different conditions!
Mr. Speaker, I think it is the hon. Member who is referring to different things. The Question I was answering for the hon. Member for Narok South relates to the ECF which is caused by ticks and is treatable using acaricides. The drug we are using now is Dominex.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The Assistant Minister has told the House that he had sent a team of investigators to investigate the disease and that they are going to come up with the results in two weeksâ time. Why is he avoiding answering the Question and saying that he has confirmed that it is ECF while he has sent investigators to the ground?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, part âbâ of my answer, and I want to repeat it for the sake of the hon. Member who did not get me right â maybe they were thinking of other places â on 27th April, 2009, our Kericho Laboratory researchers in collaboration with those from Kabete Laboratories went to the site after four head of cattle at the Marianti and Aitong died. On 27th April, 2009, 14 days later, the disease had been cited, diagnosed and confirmed as the ECF. Our team of investigators went to the ground on 27th April, 2009 to investigate this disease.
Order, Mr. ole Lankas! You have done fairly well!
Next Question, Mr. Linturi!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask t he Minister for Energy, the following Question by Private Notice. (a) What are the respective pumping capacities of the proposed Nairobi-Eldoret Parallel Pipeline and the Mombasa-Nairobi Pipeline Capacity Enhancement Project? (b) When were the respective tenders for the above projects advertised, the identity of the firm(s) awarded the tender(s) and the amount(s) of the tender(s)? (c) Has the letter of award for the construction of the Nairobi-Eldoret Pipeline been issued and the contract signed?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
Order, Mr. Assistant Minister! The indication I have is that your answer is not exhaustive and the hon. Member is prepared to accommodate you so that this Question can be answered on Wednesday next week. Is that position now different?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is in order. I can do it on Wednesday next week with the Questionerâs permission.
on a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. You have ruled, time and again, that when a Question comes here it becomes the property of this House. This Question has been on the Order Paper for more than two times. Last time, you ruled that this is the last time it is going to be here. We have the answer here and we are ready to interrogate the Assistant Minister. Would I be in order to ask the Assistant Minister to first read the answer so that the House can hear and decide whether it kills the curiosity of this House before we just defer this Question?
It will be out of order because, just like you are saying, I have ruled many times before that when a Question comes before the House, it becomes the property of the House. I have similarly ruled many times before, and so have my predecessors, that when a Minister does not have an answer that is satisfactory with the concurrence of the Questioner, a Question can be deferred until such time that the Minister has a satisfactory answer and the hon. Member is satisfied and ready to proceed with the Question.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I have heard you and I do not want to contradict you in any way, but the answer has not been communicated by the Minister and since it is the property of the House, I am requesting for the answer to be communicated to the House because it is not the property of one hon. Member! It is after the communication that we will determine whether the answer is satisfactory or not!
Mr. K. Kilonzo, my guidance will not differ because the precedent that I have cited, and I am aware that they are accurate in accordance with the directions that I have given--- Remember, I am not just the Speaker now; I also served in the Ninth Parliament and my memory serves me right even today! That Question is deferred to Wednesday next week. That settles the matter!
( Question deferred)
JUSTIFICATION FOR KENYAâS LARGE DELEGATION TO GENEVA UN MEETING
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance the following Question by Private Notice. (a) Could the Minister justify sending of a large delegation, including five Cabinet Ministers, to Geneva, ostensibly to articulate the Coalition Governmentâs position on Prof. Phillip Alstonâs Report at the United Nations (UN)? (b) What was the composition of the entire delegation as well as the total cost of the trip to the Government? (c) Could the Minister consider instituting measures to recover the expenses incurred by the Ministers for Lands and East African Community, whose inclusion in the trip was unnecessary?
Mr. K. Kilonzo, with respect to this Question, it appears it was slotted for today afternoon but the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance has actually sought permission from the Chair to be exempted from answering Questions, over the past one week, up to the time the Budget is read because he is fully preoccupied with the preparation of the Budget and so are his officers. So, the hon. Member and the House should note that the Speaker did accede to that request in writing. We understand
Mr. Speaker, Sir, would I then get an indication as to when the Question is going to be answered?
Yes! We can deal with it on Tuesday next week. It is a matter that has been pending for sometime and it is urgent since it is a Question by Private Notice. So, the Question is deferred to Tuesday next week.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security the following Question by Private Notice. (a) What were the circumstances, in which police at Makongeni Police Station shot dead Mr. James Njuguna Gachau on 21st May, 2009? (b) Could the Minister provide an update on the investigations into the killing, the identity of the killer(s) and state when the killer(s) will be arrested? However, I have not received the written reply!
Is the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security here? If not, then we will leave that Question in abeyance and come back to it at the end of Question Time. I hope we shall have time to deal with it.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister for Agriculture the following Question by Private Notice. (a) Why has the Minister not degazetted the illegally appointed Board Members of the Coffee Board of Kenya who were appointed on 3rd October, 2008 in contravention of Section 4(a) of the Coffee Act, 2001 as promised to the House on 5th November, 2008? (b) When will the Minister degazette the appointments and appoint a new Board in compliance with the law? Mr. Speaker, Sir, with your indulgence, I want to confirm that the Minister has consulted with me and the issue has been fixed.
Mr. Assistant Minister, do I have your concurrence that his matter is settled for the moment?
Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Fair enough! Next Question by Mr. MâMithiaru!
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Order, Mr. Baiya. Where you want to go, we have been there already!
asked the Minister for Lands:- (a) why the process of land adjudication/demarcation which started more than 40 years ago in the adjudication units of Akirangâondu, Amwathi 1, Amwathi 2, Naathu, A/Kiongo, Athiru Ruujine and Kawiru has not been completed; and, (b) whether he could give a definite time-frame within which the process will be completed and title deeds issued.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) The Adjudication process has not been completed in these sections due to the complexity of the Land Consolidation Act, Cap. 283 which involves fragment gathering and consolidation of the same into viable units. This, in turn, has led to displacement of people and raising many land disputes therefore derailing the process of adjudication. Many adjudication sections were declared at the same time in the larger Meru District and since adjudication is a process, some have already been registered and the exercise is ongoing in other sections and at various stages. Previously statutory provisions in the Land Adjudication Act required that all objections to the adjudication registered be heard before the adjudication sections could be finalized and registered. However, these provisions have not been repealed to enable the process to be expedited. Elections and re-elections of committee members in some sections delay the work as the new committee members take time before acquainting themselves with the process of adjudication. The high number of court cases has also contributed to the delay as the officers are called upon to attend court sessions. It should be noted that there is no adjudication section called Kawiru. This is a village within Athiru Ruunjine adjudication section. (b) I cannot be able to give a definite time-frame within which the process will be completed and title deeds issued. The Ministry of Lands has written a proposal requesting for adequate funding to complete the adjudication process countrywide including Igembe North Constituency.
[ Mr. Speaker left the Chair]
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am not satisfied with the answer given by the Minister.
Order, hon. Members! Please, consult in very low tones so that the hon. Member can ask his Question and be heard!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am not satisfied with the answer from the Minister because he said that it is the complexity of the exercise that has caused the delay. This exercise started three years after Independence, that is, 1966. Since then, nothing has happened up to now. Even the first charge has not been completed. This is an area where the land officers have taken upon themselves, with impunity, to own land which they have not bought and hence the many objections that have been registered. Could the Minister confirm how many plots were registered in Akirangâondu section and, out of those, how many objections we have so far?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I may not have a specific answer to that question but I have a schedule here which can take a long time to read. I can lay it on the Table because it includes all the details that the hon. Member requires. There is information as to what has happened in each section and in each village.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, one of the reasons why there are boundary disputes in parts of Meru is because the land has not been demarcated. What action is the Minister taking so that demarcation is hastened and people given their title deeds as a matter of urgency?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am taking the issue of the larger Meru as a special problem area and, in the next month, I will be visiting the area not only to try and put measures in place to expedite the process but also to ensure that the problems that have beleaguered the process in the larger Meru are dealt with. I ask the hon. Member if he has any information about any public officers who are interfering with the process, to come and see me with specific cases. I will be able to deal with them directly without waiting until we have a solution for the larger Meru area. I also want to say that this process in the entire Republic has been delayed. In fact, the process started before Independence and only about 20 per cent of the land in the country has been fully adjudicated and title deeds issued. A title deed being issued does not mean that they have been delivered to the owner. So, that is a big problem.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
What is your point of order, hon. Linturi?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is not a point of order, but a supplementary question!
Order! Order! You do not rise on a point of order and then ask a supplementary question!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it was a slip of the tongue!
Proceed and ask your supplementary question!
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The problem of land adjudication in the entire Meru region is not only as a result of the problems that the Minister has raised. We have problems with human resource; that is land officers and lack of finance. I would want to know from him how much money he has set aside in the coming Budget for this purpose in this region. Land adjudication in Amwathi, in my constituency, is over and the AR maps are already in Nairobi. How much money has he allocated for this purpose in our district?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not want to anticipate what is in the Budget. However, the hon. Member will remember that when I was moving the Vote for this particular Ministry last year, I complained that, in spite of efforts that we have made to be given sufficient funds in order to process land adjudication, we were not able to get even 30 per cent of what we had asked for.
As I speak now, the Ministry of Lands is part of a larger component which includes the Ministry of Agriculture. So, the money is not given particularly in relation to my Ministry. We are treated as part of a component. We wait to know what allocation the Ministry will get when the Budget is read.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the question of land adjudication is a problem all over the country, including Garsen Constituency.
If I remember correctly, the answer the Minister has given indicates that one of the reasons for the delay is that there are too many court cases and objections. We have heard him and his predecessors talk about bringing an amendment to the law, so that those who have no objections are allowed to register the land and those who have cases can wait. When will he bring this amendment? We have seen the Attorney-General bringing the Statute Law (Miscellaneous Amendments) Bill to increase his salary and yet, these problems of wananchi are continuing! Is the problem with him or the Attorney- General?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, with respect to hon. Mungatana, I think he is sleeping on the job! That amendment has already been made. It is what has enabled us in Trans Nzoia and some areas of the Coast Province, where the process translates into title deeds being issued. In fact, in Kwale, in two or three weeks, we will issue more than 15,000 title deeds. This is specifically because these provisions have been reviewed. The problem is no longer there. We only have financial constraints.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The Minister may wish to agree that the problem in land adjudication is not merely money. It is the delay and corruption that has been fuelled by the many court cases. I hope he is aware that in Coast Province and many other areas, people who have previously worked in the Lands Office and some who are currently working there, have illegally allocated to themselves unadjudicated land and acquired such registration. What is he doing about the very many cases of that nature? Is he considering hiring a lawyer on behalf of the Ministry instead of relying on the Attorney-General whose officers always compromise those cases?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is true that sometimes we are let down because a certain counsel fails to turn up or has not prepared the briefs correctly. We have no way of monitoring since the matters are being handled under the Office of the Attorney-General. I also agree with the hon. Member that there are some areas, particularly Malindi and parts of Kilifi, where 90 per cent of the problem has been caused by officials within the Ministry of Lands; some of whom have retired. The problems we deal with are not from those who have land claims in the Coast Province. However, a lot of them have to do with people who have become an institution in the Ministry of Lands whether they are there, or have left.
Indeed, in Malindi, I have put in place a process where we are looking at certain lands which were allocated to a particular person in various names, who is a lawyer and, I shall not name him. But 90 per cent of the problems in Malindi and Kilifi have occurred because of this single person. Nearly all the prime land in that area has either passed
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, my good friend, hon. Orengo, has admitted that the problem of land adjudication is not just in one constituency, but bedevils the entire Meru region. I welcome his decision to visit that area, apart from meeting his in-laws, and see how he can address these problems.
Is he aware that part of the problems arise out of insecurity and the clan warfare that has characterized the political situation in the entire lower region of the greater Meru, and as a result of failure to adjudicate land in time and the methods the Government has resorted to dealing with it compounds rather than settles the problems? The issue of formation of a committee by the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security has been going round there, now purportedly to deal with insecurity problems there, when all the members appearing before it, are raising issues of adjudication. Will he agree with me that the best way to deal with that problem is to get this money that the Ministry of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security is spending on a committee that is going round the region? This money could better be utilised if it was made available to the Ministry of Lands to do the process of adjudication to complete it within the shortest timeframe. Will he agree with me that, that is the most practical way of dealing with this situation rather than sending security personnel and former PCs to deal with a problem that relates to land ownership rather than insecurity?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to agree with the hon. Member and that is why we have sought, so many times, to have this Parliament and the Government as a whole, give us a bigger allocation. For example, last year, we had asked for Kshs7 billion and we were given something around Kshs2 billion, despite the fact that, outside the Kenya Revenue Authority (KRA), the Ministry of Lands collects more money than any other Ministry. We were only able to get Kshs2 billion with which to carry out all the programmes under the Ministry of Lands. Therefore, this is an issue that, I think, the hon. Members raised during the last debate during the current financial year and specifically the point that hon. Imanyara is talking about. I have used those very same reasons to try and convince the Treasury that we deserve a bigger chunk of the cake when the money is allocated.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, 40 years down the line, 11 group ranches in Trans Mara are yet to complete their adjudication process. In all those group ranches; lands officers are beneficiaries because they either allocate themselves plots or some pieces of land. What is the Minister doing to complete that process and punish some officers in his Ministry who are corrupt, right from the field up to his own office?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, on the issues of corruption, I will ask the hon. Member to bring specific cases to me. I will not say that those cases are not there; they are there and there are ongoing investigations and prosecutions with regard to corruption. I am not going to carry the brief in trying to defend what has been a subject of many reports, including the Ndungâu Report. But I would urge hon. Konchella that, in Trans Mara, most of the time, we have a problem with the leadership. After the elections, when the leadership of the area changes, if you had a group ranch, you will find that---
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The Minister knows that I am an hon. Member of Parliament and I am here to ask questions about my peopleâs issues and problems because I am their leader. So, there is no issue or problem of the Maa--- They could be in the group ranches, but not in the political leadership or the district. I am asking this because they have mandated me to talk on their behalf and, therefore, to ask questions.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am not talking about this specifically, but I am saying generally that, in that part of the world, the leadership of these group ranches tends to change whenever there is a change of political leadership. So, what was agreed during the previous leadership is not necessarily what would be agreed in the current or the subsequent leadership. So, we have many of those group ranches where, while we are just about to complete the exercise, a new scenario emerges that if you proceed and issue title deeds--- For example, there are one or two group ranches in Trans Mara that I know. If we dared to give out title deeds now, there would be violence. So, I think the onus is on the political leadership to bring their people together. I have seen it in some areas, especially in the Coast, where the political leadership has brought people together to expedite those processes. I would like to appeal to hon. Konchella that, at the end of the day, there is nothing to be gained if you have two groups, which are perpetually fighting over the same piece of property for the last 20 years. I think the best thing is to bring them together and find a middle ground so that we can give your people the title deeds, which they deserve.
Hon. MâMithiaru, ask the last question on this!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the answer I have received is very unsatisfactory. I know that the Minister is new in that Ministry, but the root cause of the problem in that area started 43 years ago. It is mainly corruption on the part of the lands officers. In the areas that I have mentioned, Akirangâondu and Amwathi 2, the lands officers own the land there. They never bought the land. They snatched it from the people! It is not only the lands officers at the adjudication section but even officers at the Ministry Headquarters in Nairobi are involved! Today, my people come here in delegations because they have land complaints that have not been settled. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I asked the Minister how many parcels of land were demarcated in Akirangâondu. He did not have the figures. But the objections are 5,300 out of 6,000 plots which were surveyed. That was 43 years ago! That shows clearly that the problem is in the Ministry. I would say that since this is a problem that is afflicting all Kenyans, I am asking for your intervention, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. You can have a House Committee to look into those issues because now, we can never trust the lands officers in that matter.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I did tell the hon. Member that I have a schedule here. I do not want to read it through but in Akirangâondu, there are about 5,209 objections. Those objections need not delay the exercise. I would urge the hon. Member that if he has any name of a lands officer - because they are not entitled to allocate land to themselves--- Even if they are using the name of a relative or a friend, if you can give me those names, that would be dealt with as soon as that evidence is received.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Names of those lands officers are already in memorandums that are in his office!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the names are not in my office. The hon. Member has been to my office, but he has not given me a memorandum which specifically gives the names of those who allocated themselves land or who have obtained title deeds.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. One of the hon. Members, hon. Linturi, informed this House that when they took up a portion or a section of that area under the Constituencies Development Fund (CDF), they completed the process and now, they are finalizing that process. Is it in order for the Minister to continue allowing that process to drag on, if we have solutions that can be given by hon. Members? Why would the Minister not allow that process to be taken over by the CDF? For that to happen, also allow a Committee of Parliament to look at those issues and establish why it has taken 43 years and yet the exercise has not been completed.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I cannot stand on the way of this Parliament. If Parliament wants to establish a Committee, I cannot stand on the way. All that is required is a resolution.
Secondly, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, on the idea of using the CDF, it has been used very effectively by some hon. Members who have come to see me. They have offered, because of constraints in finances, to spend a little money from their CDF to expedite either the demarcation or the issuance of title deeds. That has happened in several places.
Next Question, Mr. Kaino!
asked the Minister for Lands when the Ministry will send officers to Tunyo, Tot and Tirap divisions of Marakwet to undertake land adjudication.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
The Ministry has officers in Tirap Division undertaking land adjudication. The same officers will be deployed to Tunyo and Tot divisions once they complete the adjudication work in Tirap Division. In order to be clearer on this issue, I should point out to the hon. Member that the work which was being done in Chepkung Adjudication Section, which was declared on 18th March, 1996 was suspended because of insecurity. In Maina Adjudication Section, the demarcation process is almost complete and there are 54 arbitration board cases pending. However, that need not stand on the way towards the completion of the exercise because the relevant legal provisions have been amended. In Chesoi Adjudication Section, the records, particularly the preliminary index diagrams, were stolen in 2006, but I ordered that the process be recommenced on 4th May, 2009.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the officers who are in Tirap Division of Marakwet District have stayed there for the last 30 years and there is nothing the Ministry has done to transfer them elsewhere. Going by the answer the Minister has given us, I wonder how long it will take to adjudicate the land in Marakwet District alone if we have to wait for another 30 years.
Mr. Minister, how much longer will you take?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it depends on whether we get money from the Treasury. We cannot do the work if we do not get the money. For example, the money that we got last year was not enough for us to undertake this process.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. It is very dangerous for Ministers in the Government to come here and tell us that they have not been given enough money and yet they are the ones who prepare the Budget. Is the Minister suggesting that we do not approve the Budget simply because he was not allocated the Kshs7 billion? How does this Government work? Is he not supposed to have consulted, given that land adjudication is given priority when it comes to allocation of money?
Mr. Mungatana, you have made your point!
There is confusion in this Coalition!
Order, Mr. Mungatana! The collective responsibility is there!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, there is an ongoing consultation within the Government and we deserve a higher allocation. We are trying to raise more funds by improving on our collections. The consultations that are going on within the Government are to the effect that we deserve to be allocated more money in order to settle people. For example, the squatters in Coast Province require about Kshs10 billion to be resettled. Other Government departments will suffer if the Government gave out the money for that province. There must be an understanding that we have a limited kitty and there is competition over these funds. There is also priority over their use.
There is one issue that Mr. Kaino raised which is very critical. I would like hon. Members to inform me about the Ministry of Lands Officers, particularly Land Adjudication Officers, who have stayed in any particular area for more than ten years. I am carrying out that exercise and let me know about them. This is because there are some Land Adjudication Officers who have become institutions in particular areas. This has made them interfere with the smooth and expeditious running of the land adjudication exercise.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, could the Minister tell us the criteria the Ministry uses to carry out land demarcation and adjudication? Why is land in historical areas like Lamu declared Government land?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I think the question Ms. S. Abdalla has asked has to do with settlement. This is what concerns her most. Where we are carrying out settlement, particularly of the landless or those who require land, they must satisfy two conditions. They must be landless and poor.
With regard to the people who get this land, 60 per cent must be from that particular area or district. Only 40 per cent can come from outside the district. Of course, in implementation, I would rather be comfortable in a situation where more than 80 per cent of the people come from the local area. The remaining 20 per cent can be allocated to anybody else who is landless and requires land in a particular area. The bulk of the land should be allocated to the local community.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the issue of land adjudication is of great concern and we are surprised that even as hon. Members rise to point fingers at where they think there is a problem, particularly the corruption perpetrated by officers in the Ministry of Lands, the Minister, apparently, does not seem to address that. He is stating
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have said categorically that when it comes to my knowledge that any particular officer has overstayed in his or her station, I normally take the necessary steps. However, working in a large Ministry like I do, I am prepared to deal with any cases that may escape my attention. There are some hon. Members of Parliament who have come to me with specific cases which I have dealt with. I urge Mr. Kigen to come to me with specific cases. This is because I do not want to punish or move staff on mere allegation.
Mr. Kigen should also realise that my hands are tied once a matter is taken to court. The issue he has talked about is a matter which is before court and I cannot comment on it in the House without violating the sub judice rule. However, I stand advised by the Attorney-General. All those papers are with the Attorney-General so that he can advise me as to whether or not there is a court order which requires any particular officer to comply with or it is just a general court order which does not require some kind of compliance. On the case Mr. Kigen has talked about, I have a team comprising of my officers and those from the Attorney-Generalâs Chamber who are sitting down to determine whether there is any specific order that requires compliance by any particular officer and to whom it was directed. I have looked at that order and, therefore, invite Mr. Kigen to look at it properly. I know that he has reported that case to other Ministries and the Attorney-General. Mr. Kigen needs to seek the Attorney-Generalâs view because he is now handling the matter and not me. He has taken other proceedings to bring about compliance. I think Mr. Kigen should follow those proceedings to the end so that if there is a court order that should be complied with, then the court should make a ruling on it.
Last question, Mr. Kaino!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have two issues that I would want the Minister to clarify. The first one is that there is now peace in the Kerio Valley. Insecurity is what hindered him from going to Chesuma Location of Marakwet District, in the Kerio Valley. Now peace has come. When will he send adjudication officers to sub-divide the same land? Secondly, the Minister has now been made to understand that adjudication in
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have asked for the money. I will get the answer on Thursday, as to whether we have the money. More importantly, we are trying to harmonise and amalgamate all legislation affecting land, because at some point, whether or not we have finished adjudication or not, the land laws that we have in this country are so many, and are in conflict. The exercise we are undertaking is meant to bring harmony, which will include a more expeditious way of handling adjudication processes, so that they do not take too long or the 40-50 years that the process has taken since Independence. As I stand here, I am not happy that 50 years after Independence, the majority of the people in this country do not have title deeds. That is a mandate that I must fulfil to ensure that those who are entitled to title deeds get their title deeds.
Hon. Members, on Question No.023, the Member for Nyakach is away on Parliamentary business. Can I have an indication from the Minister, if he is ready to answer the Question, so that we can defer it to Tuesday, next week?
Aha! Ask Question No.023.
asked the Minister for Public Health and Sanitation what plans she has to elevate Oboch Dispensary in Nyakach Constituency to a health centre, considering that the facility serves many patients.
Order, hon. Members! My taking-over notes from my able deputy say so. That is why I thought that the Member of Parliament for Nyakach was away.
Minister for Public Health and Sanitation! Is that the hon. Beth Mugo?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, apparently, none of them is present. We undertake to pass the message to them.
Hon. Members, we have a written request for leave, in accordance with the Standing Orders. The Minister and her Assistant Minister are both out of the country on Government business. So, they are not available. We will, therefore, defer this Question to Thursday, next week.
Next Question, Mr. Ethuro!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, this Question was deferred last week and, again, in a row, there is no written answer. Nevertheless, I will ask the Question.
asked the Minister of State for National Heritage:- (a) whether he could table the number, names and home districts of Kenyans awarded State commendations since Independence, indicating the various categories; and, (b) whether he could outline the criteria for such State awards and commendations.
(Mr. Otieno) Mr. Speaker, Sir, again, we undertake to draw the attention of the Minister to the Question, if you defer it to Wednesday next week.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Mr. Otieno needs to apprise the Chair as to why he thinks he can deliver the Minister of State for National Heritage better than the Minister for Co-operatives Development, Mr. Nyagah, who conveyed the same message last week but who has not delivered here the Minister of State for National Heritage.
Mr. Dalmas Otieno!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, this time round, I will accompany him to the House.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. This Question has been here on three other occasions. On the last occasion, the Minister was here and he took off. Standing Order No.46 is very clear. So, I am asking the Chair to use this particular case to serve as an example to other Ministers.
Mr. Dalmas Otieno, does the Minister for National Heritage have an Assistant Minister?
Yes, he has, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The Minister of State for National Heritage and Culture does not have an Assistant Minister. His Assistant Minister was the former Member of Parliament for Bomachoge, Mr. Joel Onyancha Omagwa, who is my very good friend, and whom I wish well, so that he can be back in Parliament sooner than later.
Mr. Dalmas Otieno, the Minister of State for National Heritage is out of order. His conduct amounts to disorder, in accordance with the Standing Orders, more so, given that this is the second time that the Question is on the Order Paper and an undertaking was given to ensure that the Minister is available. So, in the absence of neither explanation nor mitigating circumstances of whatever nature, I order that this Question appears on the Order Paper tomorrow, Wednesday, in the afternoon. The Minister must be present with an answer, failing which he shall not be allowed to transact any business in the House until an explanation is given, inclusive of even presence during the Budget reading on Thursday.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. While appreciating your ruling, since I am the most adversely affected person, I also seem to appreciate that the old man is a babu . Give him until next week.
Order! Order! Mr. Ethuro, beyond pleading with the Chair to ensure that the Minister lives within the Standing Orders, you have no other powers. The direction of the Chair, therefore, will stand. Mr. Dalmas Otieno, please, convey those directions to the Minister.
If, for any reason, the Minister is not able to be here tomorrow, then he should delegate to any of you, so that, under the ambit of collective responsibility, any of you can come with the answer.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Given that the undertaking to bring Mr. Ole Ntimama to Parliament was given by another Minister, who is also not present, could the direction also apply to Mr. Nyagah, who undertook before the House, when I was on the Chair, and he suffers the same consequences that Mr. Ole Ntimama will suffer, because we do not know what took place.
Hon. Members, let us have some goodwill towards the Executive. I believe that, in the absence of Mr. Ole Ntimama, another Minister will come to the House, equipped with the answer to the satisfaction of the House.
Next Question, Mr. Yakub!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, before asking the Question, I would like to inform you that I have not received a written answer to it.
asked the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance:- (a) what became of the countryâs entitlement in the defunct East African Community as well as the terminal dues of the Kenyan employees in the country; (b) how much the British Government paid as terminal benefits for Kenyans who worked for the defunct community; (c) whether he could tell this House the recipients, amount paid and dates of payment to all ex-staff of the Corporations of the defunct East
Mr. Yakub, this will fall in the same category as the Question by Private Notice No.3. The same circumstances apply in respect of this Question. We have given indulgence to the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance until after he has delivered the Budget Speech. So, we will defer this Question to Thursday, next week.
Mr. Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Local Government, my notes state that the Member for Molo is away on parliamentary business and is, therefore, unable to be here to ask this Question. Are you comfortable if I defer this Question to Wednesday, next week?
I have no problem with that, Mr. Speaker, Sir. That is quite in order.
It is so ordered. The Question is deferred to Wednesday, next week. Next Question, Mr. Namwamba.
asked the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Local Government:- (a) if he could confirm that the Government, as communicated vide Circular MLG No.4/2009 dated February 23, 2009 intends to halt remittance of LATF support to all local authorities which have failed to eliminate their outstanding debts/liabilities by the commencement of the Financial Year 2009/2010
(b) if he could justify the reason for this short notice and state why the notice should not be extended for five years; and
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) The Minister for finance, in consultation with the Minister for Local Government, in a special issue of the Kenya Gazette supplement No.20 and Legal Notice No.22 of 22nd April, 2004, notified all the local authorities that starting the 2009/2010 Financial Year, no amount of LATF funds shall be disbursed from the LATF Fund unless the authority has paid all outstanding debts. There is also Circular No.MLG No.4 of 2009, dated 23rd February, 2009, from the Ministry of Local Government which further reminded the Local Authorities of the said legal provisions. (b) I would like, for the notice of the House, to note that the initial provisions for eliminating the outstanding debts within a period of five years was first issued through a Legal Notice No.142 of September, 1999, under the LATF regulations. It was later extended by the Minister for Finance for another five years in the Financial Year 2004/2005. This was due to a request from the LATF Advisory Board. The notice to the local authorities to settle the debts has, therefore, been in place for the last 10 years. This cannot be a very short period.
(c) The Ministry operates within the confines of the Local Government Act (Cap.265). The Act gives me powers to merge or create certain local authorities, towns or municipal councils, depending on the viability. To pave the way for more strategies, my Ministry has completed a process of reviewing the Local Government Act and the draft is ready for presentation to the Cabinet and, ultimately, to Parliament. The proposed Act provides for a number of rescue strategies. However, it will be premature for me to discuss the full details of that draft which is yet to undergo the due process before it is used as a legal document.
However, I would like to add that apart from this, the Ministry has been supporting local authorities through the LATF funds to settle some of their statutory debts. We are also helping them to get into a debt swap arrangements where they will update their records say, with the National Housing Corporation, so that they can eliminate some of the debts that are due to the National Housing Corporation. In addition, we have also introduced under the Kenya Local Government Reform Programmes, major systems to assist local authorities in improving their financial management, and debt resolution is one of the issues we are focusing on.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the ramifications of the action contemplated by the Minister would be seismic if they were to be implemented within the time frame that he proposes. Knowing that this is one action that would affect virtually all local authorities in the country, without exception, and knowing that the Ministry has already put in place a reform process that is already rolling, and that we are also in the middle or that we have already started the process of reviewing boundaries in the context of an anticipated new constitutional dispensation, why is the Ministry rushing this process? Why can they not wait for completion of this whole reform process that has been instituted both by the Ministry and by this House in pursuit of a new arrangement? Why can they not await completion of that reform before these changes are undertaken?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it should be noted that this extension has been granted twice already. At the same time, I would like to assure hon. Members that we are not as a Ministry going to do away with the LATF fund. In fact, we think to a certain extent, it is an important mechanism of revenue sharing between the Central Government and the local authorities.
The point that I want to put across is that it is a proposal that we, as a Ministry, can look at, in consultation with the LATF advisory board and the Minister for Finance, if there could be need for further extension of that duration. The duration that we are coming to amend in 2010 is one that had been granted much earlier.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, if we want this country to develop we cannot afford to ignore local authorities. The transformation of local authorities is long overdue. As much as the Minister is handling other reforms through the Cabinet, could he institute immediate measures as this House has already done by establishing a Committee to look into the accounts? Could he institute immediate measures to improve on the performance of councils because there is a lot of leakage in terms of finance by the local authorities? There is a lot of unaccountability. Could he move with speed and institute measures to improve financial management of the councils?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, as I said, we are not necessarily waiting for the Act. Under the Kenya Local Government Reform Programme, there are already over 56 local authorities that we have been placed under this programme. This is basically the financial management manual and guidelines for them to improve their financial management. This is an ongoing programme. We intend to roll it out to all the other local authorities. In addition to that, all local authorities must now have an audit committee. This was the committee that was never there. We would have the usual finance committee, the planning committee and so forth. We have given directions that all local authorities must have an audit committee to help them improve their financial management. In addition to that, we have programmes that work on capacity building for the local authorities. We are trying to find mechanisms of improving the capacity of the personnel who particularly handle matters of finance in local authorities.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, while we appreciate the efforts the Ministry is taking to empower the local authorities, what Legal Notice No.142 of 1999 and Legal Notice No.22 of 2004 mean in concrete terms is that any local authority that has a debt will not receive LATF funds. Which local authority in Kenya does not have a debt? Even the Government has debts. In the circumstances---
Order, Mr. Olago. It is Question Time.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, in the circumstances, what is the Ministry doing in concrete terms, to empower local authorities to manage their finances well?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to tell the hon. Member that one of the most interesting things out of the LATF Fund is that this carrot and stick approach has greatly improved the financial management of a number of local authorities. Quite a good number of them have actually taken serious steps in reducing their debt. I think it is an important tool that the Ministry has been using to get the institutions to become more accountable.
The other point is that when the local authorities know that they are likely to incur penalties, because under the LATF Act, there is also provision for penalties if you do not
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to join other hon. Members in congratulating the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Local Government for the serious work he is doing in terms of giving capacity to local authorities. However, on the same issue, at the time the last extension was given, the situation was not as bad as it is today. The Minister lives in this country and he knows that we are under a global recession that is affecting not only the Central Government but also the local authorities. The LATF is doing a lot of work on the ground in Garsen just as the Constituencies Development Fund (CDF) is. If the Tana River County Council is going to be disbanded, we will suffer irreparable damage. In view of the current circumstances; the global recession and the political violence that we had, could the Minister give an undertaking to this House that they will give a further extension, which could be the last, before they effect these tough measures on local authorities?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the good news is that Tana River County Council is not one of the defaulting local authorities. It has been doing a very good job in ensuring that the issues of debt resolutions or penalties do not come their way. I want to commend them for that. The other aspect is that, I agree that this is a position that can be reviewed. However, it should not be taken for granted by the local authorities that there shall be an automatic review. It is, definitely, a matter I am willing to take up with the Advisory Board of the LATF and the Ministry of Finance.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to appreciate the very pragmatic position taken by the Minister. The only assurance that local authorities would want to hear from the Minister, from Nairobi to Port Victoria Town Council, is whether after Thursday, as we commence the Financial Year 2009/2010, they will be looking forward for LATF remission from the Ministry.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to give the assurance. We have made the appropriate requisition to the Treasury and we anticipate that there will be a budgetary provision for LATF, for local authorities.
Next Question by Mr. Moses Lessonet!
asked the Minister for Forestry and Wildlife: - (a) whether he could confirm that only M/s. Comply, M/s. Timsales and M/s. Raiply conduct tree harvesting activities in the forests in Koibatek and that the local saw millers have been denied licenses; and,
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) Yes, I confirm that only M/s. Comply, M/s. Timsales and M/s. Raiply conduct tree harvesting activities in the forests in Koibatek and that local saw millers are not licensed to do so. Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is because the three firms were exempted from the forest ban imposed in 1999 on the premise that they will provide value -added products such as wood panels, fibre boards and wood laminates that would have to be imported. The companies employ a large workforce and are involved in replanting of the areas they clear. My Ministry has, however, gone through a pre-qualification process for local saw millers with a view to licensing them once the ban is lifted. (b) My Ministry has no intention to involve Kazi Kwa Vijana initiative in saw milling. However, Kazi Kwa Vijana programme will be involved in replanting the cut or harvested areas and other reforestration activities such as seedling production, planting, weeding, thinning, pruning and forest protection.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Assistant Minister has clearly indicated that he has no intention of lifting the ban. I want to confirm to this House that we have small scale saw millers in Eldama Ravine and Koibatek who are able to do value-addition to wood products. However, they have been locked out through the restriction on tree harvesting. Could the Assistant Minister confirm to this House that he is being unfair to local saw millers?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, let me mention to Mr. Lessonet that we are not unfair. Let me also state that so far, we have about 38,000 hectares of mature commercial plantations that are due for harvesting. We have put in a request to the Cabinet so that the ban is lifted. Right now, we have placed a management plan through the Cabinet. This is to plan on how we can be able to replant the 38,000 hectares in the view that it will be harvested. We hope that many more saw millers will qualify to harvest the trees once the ban is lifted.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, could the Assistant Minister confirm that M/s. Comply, M/s. Timsales and M/s. Raiply are one and the same thing practising monopoly in this country? The Government locked out companies which were doing value-addition to wood, including Elgeyo Saw Mills, Ply and Panel Mills and Super Ply Mills, because of monopoly and corruption.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, when the ban was put in place in 1999, I think it was as a result of destruction of forests which had resulted into a huge percentage of forest land going down. However, the Government of that day agreed to maintain the three main saw millers and Pan African Paper Mills since they had value addition. Secondly, they invested in technology and the Government had 90 per cent recovery. With regard to the second part of his question, I want to deny that the Government has been unfair to the other saw millers.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. How can the Assistant Minister deny that it is not unfair yet it is one family that owns these companies? Could the
Order, Mr. Sirma! Your point is made! The Assistant Minister has not confirmed! Mr. Assistant Minister, are you able to confirm that these three are the same company owned by the same people?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, all the three companies belong to what is famously called the Rai Group. As I said, the Government of that day, which Mr. Lesrima was serving, is the one that gave those companies the right to harvest the trees.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, you heard what the Assistant Minister has said? The Assistant Minister was referring to the hon. Nominated Member, Mr. Musa Sirma, and not Mr. Lesrima. I want the record corrected.
Fair enough! The hon. Member who is nominated is Mr. Musa Sirma. The hon. Assistant Minister is Mr. Lesrima. That is corrected.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Could the Assistant Minister confirm that he is not imputing improper motive on my personality? Being a Member of a former Government which was corrupt does not mean that I was part and parcel of a Government which practised such discrimination against Kenyans.
Mr. Assistant Minister, do you have any response at all?
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. First of all, I want to correct the fact that I was referring to Mr. Musa Sirma and not Mr. Lesrima. Secondly, just to state clearly, the four companies which have been given the harvesting rights since the ban was imposed are only harvesting an average of about 5, 000 hectares annually. We have 38,000 hectares which have matured and are ready for harvesting.
Order! Mr. Assistant Minister, all that Mr. Sirma wants you to do is to confirm that he was not part of the cartel that led to that wrongdoing.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think he was a Member of the party that had formed the Government at that time!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I also want the Assistant Minister to confirm to this House that one of the directors of the Kenya Forestry Service is actually the owner of the three companies we are discussing, which means that they are harvesting all the trees and have taken over the directorship. They are actually running the Kenya Forestry Services.
That is an easy one, Mr. Speaker, Sir. In the Board of Directors of the Kenya Forestry Service, there is a representative of the private sector who is a representative of saw millers. That is the reason why one of the directors is involved in this.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, could the Assistant Minister deny or confirm that some of the owners of these companies are foreigners? If they are not, could he lay on the Table their names?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I do not have that information now. However, if the House decides that I have to lay the information on the Table, I think I can do so.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The Saw Millers Association which is the private sector that was referred to in the Act was supposed to nominate a Member to the Board. But instead of doing so, they nominated one of their own who is
Order! That is a point of argument and not a point of order. Mr. Assistant Minister, you need not to respond. The hon. Sirma stood on a point of order but it does not fall in that classification.
Next Question, Mr. Baiya!
asked the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security:- (a) The circumstances under which police arrested and detained motor vehicles which were delivering fresh milk to the factory in Githunguri on 21st May, 2009; and, (b) What action he will take to compensate the Githunguri milk farmers for the loss and ensure that such incidence is avoided in future.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg the indulgence of this House for a deferment of this Question to tomorrow morning when hon. Ojode, who is held up upcountry on official duty, will be here to answer the Question.
Fair enough! The attention of the Chair has been drawn to the fact that the Assistant Minister, Ministry of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security, Mr. Ojode, who would have answered this Question is held up in western Kenya on Government business. He was expected to be back here this afternoon but he has not managed to do so. That will also apply to the Question by Mr. J.M Kamau, Member for Kandara. The Assistant Minister is trying to get back here but he has not succeeded. So, we will defer the Questions by Messrs. Baiya and J.M. Kamau to Tuesday next week.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, he had indicated that he will be ready to answer my Question tomorrow. First, it had been listed as a Question by Private Notice and then again converted to an Ordinary Question.
We are just trying to provide a safeguard against any eventuality. He is held up on Government business of such nature that it may spill over into tomorrow. So, we are just being cautious. The Question is deferred to Tuesday next week. It is so ordered!
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Mr. J.M. Kamau, please take note.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, although the Assistant Minister had agreed to give us an answer tomorrow, my issue is a bit serious. Why can we not have it discussed tomorrow or Thursday?
I have it in mind that Thursday is Budget day.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security the following Question by Private Notice. (a) What are the circumstances under which the police at Makongeni Police Station shot to death Mr. James Njuguna Gachau on 21st May, 2009? (b) Could the Minister provide an update on the investigations into the killing, the identity of the killers and state when the killers will be arrested and charged in court?
asked the Minister for Roads what immediate plans he has to repair and improve on the Kisii-Migori-Isebania Road, especially at the road between Kisii/Kisumu Junction and Kakrao.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. My Ministry is currently undertaking the repair works on the Kisii-Migori- Isebania Road. The works involve site clearance, cleaning of the drainage, gravelling of shoulders and pothole patching. The contract commenced on 7th April 2009, and is due to end in October 2009.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I want to appreciate the answer given by the Assistant Minister regarding the work they have started on this road. In fact, they have even started putting up bumps from Kisii to Suneka. The areas to the southern part of this area, Migori, Rongo and Awendo, have a high population of students that use this road. However, bumps have not been erected on those roads. Could the Assistant Minister undertake to instruct his officers to erect bumps between Kakrao on the northern part of Migori and Hassan Johnson Primary School because we have had many lives lost on this road?
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. It would be inappropriate for me to say that we will erect bumps on all roads so as to reduce accidents. That is just one of the ways to reduce accidents. However, we will send our officers on the ground and get the
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The road in question is one of the main arteries to Tanzania through Isebania. I happen to use this road very often. One of the major problems on this road, especially between Nyachenge and Rongo, is the fact that it is very narrow. It is like the size of one lane. I would have expected the Assistant Minister to indicate when he intends to do this road and if he has any immediate plans to widen the lanes because a number of accidents have occurred on that road because it is very narrow.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I want to concur with the Member that indeed, this road is narrow. However, in view of the finances available at the moment, we have set aside Kshs55, 706,000 for the repairs. We are in the process of securing more funds in the future to make sure that the road is expanded to accommodate the heavy traffic, especially the sugar cane area and the people going to Tanzania.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have heard the Assistant Minister talk about new roads being associated with many accidents. However, he was not candid about the measures he will take to reduce the road carnage we experience every day. For example, we have a problem between Kabarak University and Kampi Ya Moto. Many children are crashed at that point. Last week, we lost four children who were hit by one vehicle which was speeding. There have been proposals to the effect that bumps should be erected at that section. The Ministry officials have been on the ground but no action has been taken. What will the Assistant Minister do to reduce accidents in black spot areas?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is not correct to say that we are doing nothing. Indeed, one of the biggest causes of such accidents is lack of pedestrian paths where pedestrians can walk and leave the road. Most of the roads that we are constructing in Nairobi and most urban centres have footpaths which pedestrians or cyclists can use and, therefore, leave the roads for motorists.
Secondly, I have also stated earlier on that we are expanding the shoulders of the roads so that the people who are walking or using bicycles will not use the actual roads. Indeed, we have done a lot. We will also construct foot bridges where they are required so that people can use them to cross over roads. We are also sensitising people on road use and safety.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, road signs and markings have been a very important component of road finishes. Could the Assistant Minister ensure that road signs and markings continue being components of road construction and finishing on all roads that are being constructed or re-done?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, we have ensured that road markings are on all the roads that are currently being rehabilitated. However, because they are normally made of metal, which has become very precious, many Kenyans have a habit of picking and selling them as scrap metal, which has, of course, endangered many Kenyans. However, we will ensure at all times that we mark the roads when we rehabilitate them.
Last question, Mr. Pesa!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Assistant Minister has given a good answer, but I think he should inspect this road. This is because when he refers to this road as a new road, it shows that he is unaware of what it is like. I insist that this old road, which is an
Order, Mr. Pesa! It is Question Time!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like the Assistant Minister to assure this House that this road will be expanded.
Mr. Assistant Minister, you need not respond to that question! It is clearly repetitive. The same question has been asked and you have responded to it earlier on. Mr. Pesa, just check the HANSARD for the answer to that question!
Let us move on to the next Order!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to make the following Ministerial Statement regarding the Public Service Commission (PSC) following the contribution by hon. Martha Karua, the Member for Gichugu. On 27th May, 2009, she singled out the PSC as a body that does not believe that, alongside other institutions, it needs reforms. She said that the PSC has continued to encourage corruption and nepotism in appointments and has refused to embrace reforms almost ten years since the reform mood came into this country.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I rise on a point of order under Standing Order No.70. The Minister is an old Member of this House and he knows that all addresses in this House are made through the Speaker of this House. Therefore, the PSC has no locus standi to send either the Minister, by itself or messenger, to come and answer any contribution to debates in this House. Mr. Speaker, Sir, if you look at the provisions under Standing Order No.75, you will find that they are very clear. The Standing Order says that if there is anything out of order in my contribution or that of any hon. Member, any Member within this House, including the Minister, or collectively, the Government, are supposed to rise on a point of order to make that correction at the time that I am making that contribution. In fact, that Standing Order is very clear because it says that immediately I stand on a point of order, the other Member is to sit down, so that if there is anything out of order, it is corrected on the spot. It is completely out of order for the Minister to come, ten days later, and purport to correct a debate in this House. What will happen to this Parliament? The floodgates will be open and every department of Government will send a Minister here after we have debated, to try and make corrections. Mr. Speaker, Sir, Standing Order No.79 (2) says that it is completely out of order to introduce any argument on any matter on which the House has already taken a
Point made! Mr. Minister, do you have any reaction to that before I make my ruling?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I was not in the House at that time. I would not be surprised if the hon. Member did not check that Mr. Dalmas Otieno was absent before making the allegation that she did. As to the matter of the point of order---
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Order! Just allow him to proceed! What is it hon. Karua?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, is Mr. Otieno in order to suggest that I checked to see whether he was out in making my contribution, when he knows that he just neglects his parliamentary duties?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, as to the point of order, I think it is in the interest of the House and the public in general that where an allegation that is unfair and really unfounded is made, and more so, by somebody who should have known better, but decided to do otherwise, it should be corrected in good time. I have been trying to make this correction from the following day after these allegations were made.
Order, Mr. Mungatana! You have made your point. Persistence will not help! Let us just ensure that there is decorum and integrity. When you say âpoint of orderâ and I am looking at you, I have, no doubt, seen you. You have caught my eye, so you wait until permission is granted! Can you now proceed!
Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir! It is very wrong for someone to say that an allegation was made in this House by a person who should have known better and then nothing was done. He is imputing a very serious allegation against the Chair; that the
Order, Mr. Mungatana! You have already made those points!
Can I continue?
No! Where you are going is now not permissible.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Given that there is collective responsibility on the part of all Government Ministers including Assistant Ministers, is it in order for the Minister to suggest that because he may have been absent from the House, there was nobody else who could have responded in the House to the so- called allegations rather than wait to come and take advantage of Ministerial Statements?
Hon. Members, I am able to give directions on that matter. First, that Standing Order No.79 (2) does not apply in so far as this matter is concerned because the House did not make a resolution on the contribution by Ms. Karua per se . The House made a resolution on the Bill but not on the contributions per se . With respect to the attempt by the Minister to exonerate his officers as served in the Public Service Commission (PSC), I am afraid that, that will not be permitted because the Minister is presumed to be present in the House when debate proceeds, so that if there was anything that was out of order; anything that was misleading; anything that would be inaccurate, then the Minister had an opportunity to challenge that inaccuracy or disorder.
So then, Mr. Minister, in those circumstances, if you are challenging the accuracy which, in fact, you are moving towards, then you had an opportunity to do so when the contribution was being made by the hon. Member. So in those circumstances, apply the test of the Standing Orders to the point that you are raising, ipso facto, it is out of order! I am afraid you will not proceed but there are other ways that you can revisit that matter.
Exactly, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I sure will, on this matter!
Yes, you will be permitted to do so as long as you live within the Standing Orders! Any other Ministerial Statements?
There are none! Are there any requests!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, this morning, there was a very serious disturbance within the Chamber of the County Council of Central Meru at a time when a purported election was supposed to take place leading to certain injuries. I think the matter right now is in the hands of the police. I would like the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Local Government to issue a Ministerial Statement clarifying on whether the election period for local councils is now on. Secondly, what is he planning to do regarding the administrative officer who exercised the duties of a Town Clerk without any qualifications in order to prevent an ugly situation from recurring in Meru and in many other local authorities in the country?
Mr. Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Local Government!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, indeed, Mr. Imanyara had also raised this matter with me and I wish to state as follows:- At the moment, no election should be taking place within the local authorities. Elections, in accordance with Cap.265, should commence on 30th June up to 15th August, 2009. This is for either election of mayors or chairmen of committees. So, anybody who is purporting to conduct elections at this time is acting illegally and the clerks of all local authorities must be aware of this. A circular will be issued from the Ministry reminding them that the election dates shall be between 30th June and 15th August, 2009. That has to come out very clearly in accordance with the Act. The second point is that I will take up this matter, both with the police and also with my officials in the Ministry so that any officer who is purporting to be breaching the law shall be dealt with accordingly.
DISAPPEARANCE OF QUESTIONS RE-DIRECTED TO PRIME MINISTERâS OFFICE
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. If you recall a while ago, there were two Questions that I forwarded to the Office of the Prime Minister which were redirected and since then, they seem to have disappeared. There was a Question to the Ministry of Transport and the other one to the Ministry of State for Public Service. Secondly, a while ago, on the issue concerning Government dealing with Kenol/Kobil, you ruled that the Minister for Energy should lay on the Table the court judgment but he has never done that.
Anybody holding brief for the Ministers? Mr. Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Local Government, but I see there is an Assistant Minister for Energy.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I undertake to lay the court order on the Table next week.
When next week?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, on Wednesday.
Mr. C. Kilonzo, is that fine?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will be away on Parliamentary duties. I would like it to be deferred to another week.
The week after?
Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
It is so ordered, Tuesday the week after! Minister of State for Public Service? Which is the other Question you were talking about?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the two Questions had been forwarded to the Office of the Prime Minister but I have no objection since he has declined to answer the Questions. I have no objections if they are forwarded to the Ministries.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, one of them is the Ministry of State for Public Service and the other is the Ministry of Transport.
Mr. Minister of State of Public Service, will you prepare to answer that Question?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the answer is ready and can be---
The week after next week?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will be out of the country.
Are you able to answer it tomorrow?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will do it tomorrow afternoon.
Mr. C. Kilonzo, will you be there tomorrow?
Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the answer is ready and I will deliver it tomorrow.
It is so ordered!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to seek clarification from the Chair. On 27th May, 2009, I sought a Ministerial Statement from the Minister in charge of internal security. It was given on 28th May, 2009, regarding the security situation in Kirinyaga where 43 people had been murdered by vigilantes and, previously, 30 people had been massacred at Karatina, bringing the total number of people dead in Kirinyaga to 73 regarding that incident. You will recall that you directed that the Departmental Committee on Administration and National Security investigates the matter. Today, the Committee led by Mr. Kapondi was at Kerugoya to investigate this matter. I did not go because it was not necessary for me to be there, the matters having arisen from Kerugoya/Kutus Constituency and Ndia Constituency. I have learnt that the District Commissioner, Kerugoya Central, Mr. Warfa, the police, together with a local politician, organized a demonstration against me by vigilantes which is the height of impunity. Therefore, I am seeking your directions on three issues. What hon. Members of this august House should
Fair enough! Directions will be given on Thursday next week.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Last week, I sought a Ministerial Statement from the Ministry of Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs regarding the gazettement of officers of the Kenya Advisory Board to the Kenya Anti-Corruption Commission (KACC). Assurances were given that the Ministerial Statement would be issued, but the following day, the President proceeded to gazette names, leaving out one name. I am seeking your directions on what we are supposed to do when the President is in contempt of the House, like in this incident where the House passed a resolution in accordance with the law which requires the President to gazette names within 14 days. He waited until the issue was raised in the House and then the following day, he gazetted them, leaving out one name. I am seeking your directions on whether the President is not in gross disorder himself and what the position regarding the conduct of the President when he breaches Standing Orders of the House is. That matter relates to the constitutional exercise of power by the President and it is not a light matter, given that when this House passes resolutions or laws, the President or the hon. Member for Othaya is bound by those laws like everybody else and only enjoys immunity. So, I am seeking your clarification on what the House is supposed to do on circumstances where the President holds the house in contempt by failing to gazette names or acts in accordance with the law as ordered or directed by this House.
Order, Mr. Imanyara! You cannot seek clarification from the Chair on that matter. You can only seek direction from the Chair.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, if you wish me to direct the Question to the Government, then I will seek a Ministerial Statement from either the Prime Minister---
No! You seek directions from the Chair.
I stand guided. May I seek directions from the Chair on what we shall do in circumstances like those when the President is in contempt of the House.
Directions shall be given on Thursday after Thursday next week. Mr. Chanzu! Although the Chair has no notice that you would be seeking a Ministerial Statement.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, last week, for the third or fourth time, I sought a Ministerial Statement on the circumstances surrounding the aircraft accident in Kapsabet. Last week, the Assistant Minister, Mr. Lesrima, issued a Ministerial Statement. I asked whether the aircraft was insured and you ruled that he makes available that information. So, that is what I am seeking.
Fair enough! I direct that the Minister furnishes the House with that information on Tuesday next week because that was a clear order made by the Chair.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I also have an outstanding Ministerial Statement from the Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs on the issue of Somali Pirates. He promised to deliver it but it is now more than three weeks and they have not done so.
I direct that the Ministerial Statement be availed on Tuesday next week because I am aware that it has been pending for quite sometime.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is in the public domain that there are hon. Members who it is said---
Order, Mr. Ruteere! That point of order is pursuant to what Standing Order?
It is pursuant to Standing Order No. 76. I want to make a Personal Statement.
You may proceed!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is in the public domain that there are hon. Members who have been construed not to be speaking in this House. They are mute. According to me, the mute are those who are deaf and I have not yet come across an hon. Member who is deaf.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am among those who are said not to speak, ask Questions, participate in debates in the House and contribute to Motions in the House. That kind of insinuation is very malicious and defamatory. I want to say that it touches on my personal character and it is something that cannot be understood. Since I came to this Parliament, I have moved Motions, including Motions of Adjournment. I have also asked numerous Questions. I have about two files with HANSARD reports that have come to my office for me to see if there are any corrections. So, I do not know why it was said that I do not
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I also stand to seek direction from you. On 4th June, 2009 some documents were laid on the Table of the House by Mr. Linturi on the issue relating to the cemetery land being purchased by the Nairobi City Council. I had not had time to look at those documents but there was one piece of paper purporting to have a list of names of alleged beneficiaries. That document does not have any signature, date or anything to show its authenticity. I just want to seek your clarification and direction over what is admissible under such circumstances. We should not, at any time, use the privilege of laying documents on the Table of the House to just present issues that have no basis or justification. I want to seek your guidance on this matter because it would be very wrong for a document that cannot be authenticated to be used as a basis either by any committee or organization.
Order, I have a number of Communications to make, beginning with communication with respect to the matter that has been raised by the hon. Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Local Government as follows. Hon. Members, I confirm that the Chair was made aware of the documents referred to by the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Local Government that were laid on Thursday, 4th June, 2009 by the hon. Mithika Linturi. Indeed, the hon. Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Local Government called my office on the same issues. These papers were laid in the context of hon. Linturiâs Question to the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Local Government on the procurement of cemetery land by the Nairobi City Council.
Hon. Members, the practice of this House which has been restated in various communications and rulings of the Chair is to the effect that whenever a Member seeks to lay a paper before the House, the paper be availed to the Chair to determine the authenticity of the paper. The paper shall not be deemed as having been laid in the House until after examination the Chair confirms its authenticity. In line with this practice, I have examined the bundle of papers laid by the hon. Linturi. From my examination, I have found that one of the papers titled: âBeneficiariesâ does not meet the test of
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move the following Motion:-
THAT, this House adopts the Reports of the 14th, 15th and 16th Sessions of the ACP Parliamentary Assembly and the 16th and 17th ACP- EU Joint Parliamentary Assembly (JPA) Meetings held in November 2008, Port Moresby, Papua New Guinea; February 2009, Brussels, Belgium and April 2009 in Prague, Czech Republic laid on the Table of the House on Wednesday, 3rd June, 2009.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to second the Motion that Prof. Kamar has moved, as it is on the Order Paper. Kenya is a member of the ACP Group that was created many years ago to co- ordinate co-operation amongst its members and the European Union. Amongst the objectives of the group of the ACP are promotion of new, fairer and more equitable world order; promotion of solidarity amongst the ACP countries and promotion of regional integration. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, there are many issues that the ACP countries are interested in. The organs of the ACP-EU are Heads of Governments, Council of Ministers, Council of Ambassadors and the Joint Parliamentary Assembly, which Prof. Kamar and I do attend, and we thank the Kenyan Parliament for having given us the privilege to do so. At the Joint Parliamentary Assembly, we concentrate mainly on the role of National Parliaments in various fields that affect the people they represent. In the recent few meetings, we have looked at the role of Parliament in so far as aid effectiveness from European countries, and particularly, under a programme called the âEuropean Development Fund (EDF)â. The EDF is a major fund that the European countries use as a mechanism of passing on aid to ACP countries, and they are country programmes. However, our country programme on the EDF is never brought to Parliament for Parliament to be able to interrogate that programme or to even know what is happening. I would suggest that Parliament and its relevant Departmental Committees look at such programmes, because these are some of the agreements that our Government enters into without Parliament playing any role whatsoever. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, we also looked at the EPAS, which Prof. Kamar has mentioned, and on which I will dwell at length later on. The question of
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to support the adoption of this Report. The first reason that I would like to support it is that the Government and the country spend a lot of taxpayersâ money to send Members of Parliament to meetings that are very important for our country and region. The deliberations held there must be adopted and recognized by this House. The second reason for supporting this Motion is that listening to the Report that has been tabled here by the Leader of the Delegation it covered an issue that I have been
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to support this Motion because it is extremely important that, as a nation, we need to recognise what is happening all over the world. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I know everybody is very familiar with the words "global village". Therefore, it means, we do not live in isolation. Consequently, issues that our Members of Parliament have been engaged in continentally should be taken seriously. These are the things going to determine the direction the world will take. I want to emphasize the issue of environment as pertains to the environmental changes that have taken place globally. In some parts of this country, this matter has not been taken seriously. This is particularly so when we look at the debate on Mau Forest and other water catchment areas in this country. The Aberdares, Mt. Kenya region and all other water catchment areas have been badly interfered with. Settlements have come up in these places and as a result, this country is facing serious environmental degradation and water shortage. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, this matter is going to have an impact on the future generations. This is not in the far future. In fact, it has caught up with our
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Before you give the opportunity for the mover to respond, I would want to bring to your attention the fact that we do not have a quorum. I believe that this is such a sensitive and important issue. I do not, therefore, think it would be fair to continue with this debate without the quorum.
Indeed, we do not have a quorum! Ring the Division Bell.
Order, hon. Members! There being no quorum, the House is, therefore, adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday, 10th June, 2009 at 9.00 a.m.
The House rose at 5.50 p.m.