Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to give notice of the following Motion:-
THAT, this House adopts Sessional Paper No.2 of 2009 on the National Policy on Older Persons and Aging, laid on the table of the House on 10th September, 2009.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Vice-President and Minister for Home Affairs the following Question by Private Notice. (a) Is the Vice-President aware that in the recent past there have been deaths of 18 convicts/remandees at Kodiaga GK Prison in Kisumu caused directly by lack of sufficient food, drugs, overcrowding, unhygienic conditions and poor water and sanitation? (b) What action is he taking to punish officers who are responsible for this state of affairs? (c)What action is he also taking to ensure that all prisons in the country are not death traps?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, you will recall that two weeks ago an attempt was made to answer this Question by the Assistant Minister, Mrs. Kones. However, the Chair found the answer she gave unsatisfactory. Now, this is` exactly the same answer the Vice-President and Minister for Home Affairs has read. It was found unsatisfactory because she admitted that the prison was holding above its capacity. She was asked to tell the House how many inmates it should hold. How many is it holding now? She was not able to answer those questions last time. The Vice-President has read the same answer.
I am sure the hon. Vice-President and Minister for Home Affairs is equal to the task. He will be able to deal with any supplementary questions you have. So, just proceed and interrogate the answer.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, under those circumstances, I would wish to know the following:-
Originally, the prison was designed to hold how many inmates and how many is it holding now? What is their source of water? How adequate is it? How clean is the water?
Order, Mr. Olago. I think you can only ask one supplementary question at a time. So we will take the first one which is: How many inmates was it designed to hold and how many is it holding now?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am so happy that you are trying to tame my learned friend. I think my Assistant Minister did her best. Due to the inadequacy of the information available at the time, she was able to report back that this matter has been referred yet again to this House.
The recommended capacity for Kodiaga Prison in Kisumu is actually 800. Unfortunately, currently this institution is holding 2,200 inmates.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, inhuman treatment of prisoners is a matter of concern to Kenyans. I have heard the Vice-President and Minister for Home Affairs say that they deal with any case of ill treatment of prisoners. Could he tell the House what action he took in the incident that occurred at Kamiti Prison early this year where 300 prisoners were paraded naked, beaten and was captured on amateur video? Have the police investigated or what action has been taken? We want to be sure that the Government is upholding human rights of prisoners and remandees.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, although I did refer to the issue of human rights, I am tempted to say that, again, my learned friend has asked a completely different question. However, she also knows that she raised this matter directly with me when it happened. I was in touch with the Vice-Chairman of the Kenya Human Rights Commission (KHRC), Mr. Omar, who actually brought to me what he thought was a video recording of what happened in Kamiti. Unfortunately when we played it, it was blank. That notwithstanding, we are on top of things in Kamiti and we are trying to make Kamiti a very good institution, if indeed, one can think in terms of it being very good because it is still a prison. But we are seriously upholding the basic human rights of all the inmates. The other day, the Member for Chapalungu was wondering what has happened lately to some of the social on-goings there. For instance, just the other day I discovered that at Shimo la Tewa Prison, the suspected pirates are entitled to so many hours per day of sunlight. That they should be taken out there to enjoy that environment because you cannot keep a human being indoors 24 hours for seven days a week and 365 and a quarter days in a year. So these issues are receiving some very serious attention including in Kamiti.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. We appreciate the stories about the pirates, some light and everything. However, is the Vice-President and Minister for Home Affairs in order to fail to answer the specific question? What action has he taken on Kamiti, given the reports that were in the media?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, these learned friends of mine have a problem. I said that the purported video recording was blank. I know the Member for Gichugu was very furious, and rightly so, about what happened in Kamiti. All that notwithstanding, I was equally furious. We have been investigating that matter. We were, however, given a blank video recording.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The question is in the public domain: Is the Vice-President and Minister for Home Affairs in order to avoid to answer the question as asked?
Order, Eng. Gumbo! What has he avoided to answer in your opinion?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the question put to the hon. Vice-President and Minister for Home Affairs is what action has been taken.
What action has he taken over what?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, on matters pertaining to Kamiti Prison which are in the public domain.
Order! Eng. Gumbo, you have not done very well!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, with respect, I think the Vice-President and Minister for Home Affairs is avoiding to answer this Question. Action does not mean him, as a Minister, getting satisfied with the tapes. One would expect he would say the police are investigating the matter. Internally also, that disciplinary action is being taken. Three hundred men paraded naked is a violation of human rights. Being kicked around by warders--- We expect him to tell us that he found out who was on duty and what action he took. Is he in order to refuse to answer the question?
Order, Ms. Karua! Now you have got to where you should have been all along, and even your colleagues. Your Excellency the Vice-President and Minister for Home Affairs, there is a claim that 300 prisoners were paraded naked and punished, including being clobbered. What investigations have you carried out and where are you on the case?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, may I undertake to get the latest on that matter and get back to this House? I want to get a thorough report on that matter to the satisfaction of the Member for Gichugu and of course my learned junior friend from Garsen.
That is a very reasonable position. So, will you be ready by Tuesday?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think I will be out of the country and I want to deal with the matter myself. I do not think there is any urgency in the matter. I think it is important to get correct information. I did allude to the fact that we were given an empty tape, so it could be that the issue is not as dramatic as we were all made to believe. But be that as it may, I have given my undertaking; as soon as I am able to, I will be in a position to deal with that specific request by Ms. Karua, assuming we will still be sitting.
Fair enough! Anyone else still interested in the matter?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Vice-President and Minister for Home Affairs said that the 18 convicts all passed away in hospital--- Mr. Chairman, Sir---
Order, Mr. Shakeel! You have asked your question. Allow the Vice-President and Minister for Home Affairs to answer.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to explain why I am asking that question.
No! Order, Mr. Shakeel! As I have directed previously on many occasions, when you ask a question you do not proceed to explain why you have asked the question. Mr. Musyoka, you may respond!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, on a light note, my good friend Mr. Shakeel knows that you serve as the Chair of the House Business Committee (HBC) but you are sitting here as Mr. Speaker. I want to give indications. It is important that we note that it is ten people who died and not 18 people as suggested by Mr. Olago. Life is life and I take a very serious view of any life that is lost in prison. Looking at the postmortem results, I can see that many of them died of a disease called Gastroenteritis . We are trying to dig deep and find out what is in Kodiaga, including a possible visit. I want to ask my learned friend, Mr. Olago, to visit Kodiaga Prison with me when the House is on recess so that we can look at the serious issues including what he said. I do not think the solution is to fire an innocent officer but we need to look at the water levels. He asked the source of the water, which is a river. We want to see whether that water is treated sufficiently to be given to the inmates. I know they do a lot of filtration of the water. We are very sorry that we lost ten inmates, however, others died of natural courses.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. We are all looking forward to the reforms in the Prisons Service. I am due to be a beneficiary by having a prison in my constituency that was promised by His Excellency the Vice-President and Minister for Home Affairs. When people saw how 300 prisoners at Kamiti were beaten, they started having second thoughts about the prisons. What I heard the Vice-President and Minister for Home Affairs say was that he was given a blank video cassette. Is it possible that the Department is seeing no evil? How could he have been given a blank cassette when everyone else saw what happened?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is very true that we are very serious about reforms, not just in the Prisons Department but, as I keep on saying, this is reform time in this country. We must all be in the frame of reforms. Yes, indeed, we are hoping to put up a prison in Yatta. That does not mean that his constituents will end up going to jail. Let us pray that they do not get there. There is something about prisons that people do not like. If you promise people a prison facility, they think that you are a devil or something like that. If that is unparliamentarily, I want to quickly retract the remark. However, on a serious, note, I have just said that I will be addressing this matter. I am sure that I will do it to the satisfaction, not just of my learned friends, but of the hon. Member sitting next to them, Mr. C. Kilonzo. It is important that we know what happened. As I speak to you, I must say that I did not have an update position on it. However, on the other hand, the Kenya Human Rights Commission (KHRC), through a good friend of mine called Mr. Omar, brought it to me but it was blank. I wish it had contained some of those things. I know that others could have recorded the same from other facilities, but the one I was given by the KHRC was blank. I do not blame them because they could have sincerely believed that it had substance. Be that as it may, I promise to come back to this House.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wish to take the hon. Vice-President and Minister for Home Affairs very seriously on the issue of inviting me to visit the prison with him. I hope that we will do this and it was not just a public relations exercise. However, substantively, the core business of prisons in the Republic is rehabilitation of offenders, and second, keeping those awaiting trial in safe custody. Is the Minister satisfied that despite the good work the officer in charge of Kodiaga GK Prison is doing, with the little
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am happy that my learned friend feels that we should visit that prison. Indeed, when we will be on a recess, I will want to visit the prison with him. As he rightly pointed out, our core business is rehabilitation of offenders, always taking into account their basic human rights. We do not want to rehabilitate them by giving them corporal punishment everyday. There are ways that are set and that is what we want to do. We have also realized that it is also their basic right to be given sufficient rations, some food; that is very important. When I appeared before the Departmental Committee on Administration and National Security I highlighted the fact that we have run short of the budget for giving food. In fact, the pending bills are in excess of Kshs800 million. However, we are doing the best we can. We will make do with the resources at our disposal and I am sure that the officer in charge of Kodiaga, with his colleagues, are doing the best they can within what we have budgeted for them. However, in terms of extra-curriculum activities and other things, these are things that we will see when I and Mr. Olago visit the prison.
DEMARCATION OF KIANGâOMBE SETTLEMENT SCHEME
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister for Lands the following Question by Private Notice. (a) Does Kiangâombe Settlement Scheme exist in the map of Kenya under Physical Planning Act, Cap 286 of the laws of Kenya, and if so, who is responsible for demarcating and allocating settlers in the scheme? (b) Is he aware that the scheme has never been fully surveyed since 1989 and the allotees assigned their rightful positions, despite having been issued with allotment letters in 2003? (c) What steps is he taking to ensure that the demarcation is completed and residents are issued with valid title deeds to enable them to develop their plots and ward off potential illegal encroachment?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I seek the indulgence of the Chair. This Question was brought to me today. Therefore, we do not have a ready answer.
Fair enough! Member for Juja?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have no problem. I am giving them a bit of time to prepare. Therefore, Tuesday will be fine with me.
Fair enough! Question ordered to be deferred to Tuesday next week.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wish to ask the Minister for Medical Services the following Question by Private Notice.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wish to reply. (a) I am aware that sutures worth Kshs40,300,000 imported in the year 2006 by Messrs Dol International Limited for the then Ministry of Health were not received at the Kenya Medical Suppliers Agency (KEMSA), and, therefore, could not have been dispatched to hospitals. I am not aware that they are at risk of expiring because they are not in the custody of the Ministry. (b) The Ministry is not in a position to take measures to forestall the expiry of the sutures because they are not in our custody. The Kenya Anti Corruption Commission (KACC) is seeking prosecution of the supplier and officers of the Ministry for the manipulation of the tendering process. Responsibility for expiry, therefore, will be borne by either the Government or the supplier after the determination of the legal tussle initiated by the KACC.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The hospital material I am talking about is used for purposes of operating on patients. I have carried, for purposes of helping the Minister, a copy of the said sutures that belong to the Government of Kenya, Ministry of Health. They were manufactured specifically for the Government in 2006 and they are marked to expire at the end of next year. The import of this is that by denying delivery of these sutures, you have occasioned an acute shortage to hospitals, and this automatically leads to patients dying when they are denied emergency surgery. I wish to lay on the Table a copy of this, so that the Minister can ascertain that they are his property and that they will expire at the end of next year.
After laying that sample on the Table, my question is: In view of the fact that the Minister now knows that the sutures are there and that they belong to the Government and to his Ministry, could he order that they be supplied to hospitals? Perusing through all communications between the Ministry, the KACC, the Attorney-Generalâs Office and everybody, I do not see why he cannot order that the sutures be supplied to hospitals.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am very grateful to the hon. Member for bringing this matter to the attention of the House, and for seeking a solution to it. This is a matter which I am well seized of, and the statement made by the hon. Member, that there has been correspondence between the Ministry, the Attorney-Generalâs Chambers and the KACC is correct. The fact that he, as a doctor has examined the sutures and found them to be valid until the end of next year, I cannot contest because I do not think hon. Khalwale would bring that sample to the House without doing due diligence. Having said that, I want to make the hon. Member aware of certain facts that have restrained the Ministry from receiving the sutures.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is the Minister in order to mislead the House that the blame goes to the KACC while there is a letter here which I will table, it clearly states that: âBe advised that the decision whether or not to accept your deliveries does not lie with the Director of KACC, but is a matter of contractual obligation with your client.â Is the Minister is order?
I said exactly that, I do not think the Member of Parliament is contradicting what I said. I said that the advice was that we had a contractual obligation with Doll International. I said if we did not receive the sutures and they expired we were likely to bear the penalty. However, the KACC in a letter to the Ministry and the Attorney-General, and I would table the letter and all the documents concerned here, said that we must not receive the sutures until the case was determined in court. That is why our hands are tied. On one hand, there is a Government agency called KACC which has determined that----
Mr. Speaker, Sir, is the Minister again in order to mislead the House? He wants to give the impression that it is the KACC that is running his Ministry. I have another letter here which is actually advising him on how to do his job. I want to read that particular paragraph. It says: âPlease note, it is not within the Commissionâs limit to authorise or clear any payments or receipt of goods for use by the Ministry.â Is he in order to put the blame where it does not lie?
Minister, try and deal with this matter exhaustively.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, if the hon. Member wanted me to read all the letters from the KACC, we may sit here until the cows come home. I could read them, but I was making a summary of those letters. My summary is as the following. I could read a paragraph from the same KACC, in a letter addressed to the then Permanent Secretary, Dr. Hezron Nyangito, which says---
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
The Minister is responding to a point of order. Minister, proceed.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it says:- âWe also hasten to add that the investigation on tenders under the subject inquiry entails some international aspects that consumed a lot of time thus slowing down our pace towards the conclusion of this investigation. Nonetheless, we are in the process of compiling a report with a recommendation for the Attorney-Generalâs direction as mandated under the law. It would be premature to take a decision on matters of such paramount importance before a report based on concluded investigation has been presented to the Attorney-General for his consideration. In the intervening period, any payment would compromise all the efforts that have been made to save the Ministry of Health the impending loss and to stem the appalling manipulation of procurement procedures being perpetuated to the prejudice of the Government.â
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The only institution that I believe is charged with the responsibility of determining whether procurement rules are complied with or not, is the Public Procurement Complaints and Review Appeals Board. It is this Board that is supposed to look at whether the tender was awarded competitively and openly or not. In this case, because there is that potential loss to the taxpayer in terms of contractual obligation by the Ministry of Health towards this particular tender, could the Minister consider accepting these goods without prejudice, so that the patients of this country can get this required equipment?
Order, I am afraid, I have listened to you very intently and that does not amount to a point of order. It is a matter of argument. You have presented an argument that you want to the Minister to consider and, indeed, you have concluded by asking him: If he could âconsider.â Nothing out of order, although it may be a very genuine concern. You have not put it properly.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Under the Public Procurement and Disposal Act, the only institution that deals with disputes of this nature is the Tender and Procurement Appeals Tribunal (TPAT). Is it in order for the hon. Minister to keep on wandering between the Office of the Attorney-General and the KACC. instead of going to where he should?
Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I agree with the hon. Member. I will give information on the efforts we made through the Public Procurement Oversight Authority (PPOA) to settle this matter. The PPOA---
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
I am coming to your point. We cannot have too many points of order! You have to be orderly. I have to think straight!
Order! The Minister has hardly said anything. He has only spoken for ten seconds.
Mr. Speaker, Sir---
Order, Mr. Olago! Proceed, Minister!
Order, Minister! Proceed and please address the Chair.
Pole, Mr. Speaker. In order to go to the Tender and Procurement Appeals Board (TPAB) as the hon. Members says, we needed to get information from the PPOA. When we sought the advice of the PPOA, we were told that we were in order to receive all the goods and pay on the basis once the local purchase order was issued because this was a binding relationship. However, in the same vein, the PPOA became rather non-committal, noting that the authority to pay rested entirely with our Accounting Officer. This compelled the Accounting Officer to seek disengagement from the Kenya Anti-Corruption Commission (KACC).
I am giving you the story because I was not there!
Order, Prof. Anyangâ-Nyongâo! Address the Chair! Could you relax? The Standing Orders protect you. The Standing Orders provide that you only address the Chair!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, by the way I am on their side although they do not realise this.
I sympathise with their concern but I am exercising an office which is not mine. The office is not based in Rata but in Nairobi.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the latest communication from the Attorney-General on the matter â and this is what has made it difficult for us to go to the Appeals Board â tells us that the KACC has gone to court and we cannot do anything until the courts settle the issue. The courts are independent. If somebody can bring to me some magic on how to deal with the Appeals Board and the courts at the same time, I am prepared to do so.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Order, Dr. Khalwale! Mr. Minister, have you concluded your response?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rest my case there.
Ask the last question Dr. Khalwale!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will combine my questions very quickly.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, Prof. Anyangâ-Nyongâo has given us the impression that he is completely unable to run the Ministry. Instead of running the Ministry, he runs to the KACC which tells him â and the letter has been tabled â that they have no objection in him receiving the sutures. As far as this House is concerned, we are not interested in the legalese of whether the tendering process was fair or not. However, we want the sutures to be received, the patients who need them to use them and these people can decide which way to go. This is because if he receives the sutures and finds that the man stole, he should not pay not pay him. On the other hand, if the Minister receives the sutures and this man did not steal, he will still pay him. There is no way the Government will run away. As the Public Accounts Committee (PAC), we do not want to preside over an audit
Ask the last question Dr. Khalwale!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Attorney-General wrote a letter to Prof. Anyangâ-Nyongâo on 27th April, 2007 and told him to pay. The Minister overlooked the letter by the Attorney-General and sought the opinion of the Solicitor-General. So, this is clear---
Dr. Khalwale, table that letter and ask your last question!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, when will the Minister receive the goods since the Principal Legal Government Advisor who is the Attorney-General, has told him to receive them? The KACC has also told the Minister that they have no objection in him receiving the sutures. When will he receive those items and pay?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, unless there are two KACCs in the country, I have not seen the letter from the KACC instructing the Ministry to pay. There is nothing like that.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have a letter here which I read to the House which says the opposite. That is why I am telling the hon. Member that if we read letters from the KACC, sometimes it depends on who writes them. The letters could be from Ms. Fatuma Sichale or Justice Ringera.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Order, Mr. Linturi! The Minister is responding to a point of order.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have done my best to make sure that we receive those sutures, because we need them. However, when there is confusion as to who is corrupt and who is not, I will not be the donkey which bears that burden. So, until the Attorney-General, the Solicitor-General, Ms. Sichale, Justice Ringera and others get their act correct, Kenyans will suffer.
Order! That Question is over. If hon. Members wish to revisit it, there are ways of doing so. Let us move on to Question by the hon. Member for Gichugu!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security the following Question by Private Notice. What is the Government doing about the disappearance of Ms. Assunta Wanjiku Gichuki of Kibingo in Kerugoya Kutus Constituency who was taken away from her house by vigilantes on 11th June, 2009?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. On 11th June, 2009, Mr. David Wachira reported to Kerugoya Police Station that his sister-in-law, Assunta Wanjiku Gichuki, aged 50 years had gone missing. The report was booked in the Occurrence Book (OB) No.19/11/6/09. Later, a signal of missing person was circulated to all police stations in Kenya vide OB.No.17/7/7/09. Preliminary investigations reveal that the said Assunta Wanjiku Gichuki was picked from her residence in Kibingo Village by persons whose identities are yet to be established and then taken to an undisclosed location. The lady has not been seen since. Following her disappearance, a police Case File No.221/270/09 was opened and is pending under investigations.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have listened to the Assistant Minister very carefully claiming that this lady disappeared under the hands of unknown persons. On 16th June, after the lady had disappeared on 11th, a letter was written by the brother-in- law, Mr. Dominic Mutiro, to the Minister in charge of Internal Security, Prof. George Saitoti, Mr. Francis Kimemia the Permanent Secretary, Maj-Gen. Hussein Ali who was the then Commissioner of Police and the Criminal Investigations Department (CID) Director. I will table that letter which is duly signed. On the same date, a letter was written to the President on the issue, indicating that it is known vigilantes who abducted this lady. Attached to the letter is a document bearing the registration numbers of the vehicles that collected her. These are KAE 993 P, KAP 023 P and KAB 535 B. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will also table an EMS acceptance of delivery indicating that these letters were received at the Office of the President on 27th June, 2009.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, is it in order for the Assistant Minister to claim that the lady disappeared in the hands of unknown persons, when there was an indication that it was vigilantes and there are registration numbers of the vehicles that picked her? This information has been with the Office of the President and the Ministry since June this year.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I do not have that information. So, I require time to---
The documents have been tabled!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I require time to look at the documents she has tabled.
How much time do you require? Could you be ready on Tuesday?
Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
The Question is then deferred to Tuesday.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I do not mind that, but it is also important that the Assistant Minister notes that his answer says that the signal for the missing person was circulated on 17th July while this lady disappeared on 11th June and the matter reported to
Fair enough. Member for Isiolo South!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security the following Question by Private Notice. (a) How many incidents have been reported on Isiolo-Modogashe Road between June and September 2009, following security breach caused by bandits? (b) What action has the Government taken to deal with this menace?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. The following are the incidents which have been reported along the Isiolo-Modogashe Road between June and September, 2009; On 23rd July, 2009 at around 1500 hours, one motor vehicle Reg. No. KSF, Isuzu Lorry, was attacked between Sharp area in Igembe District and Gabela area in Tigania District where 11 passengers were robbed of their belongings and cash money. Nobody was injured during the incident. On the 25th of August, 2009 at about 1400 hours, two motor vehicles, Reg. Nos. KAC 188V and KAN 741R, were attacked by armed bandits between Gacuru area in Igembe and Sharp area in Tigania District. On board were Kenya Police Reservists (KPR) among other people, who exchanged fire with the bandits and managed to over- power them. No one was injured during the attack. On 4th September, 2009 at about 1600 hours, one motor vehicle, Reg. No. KAT 610N, was attacked by armed bandits between Gabera and Sharp areas.The driver defied an order to stop and sped off forcing the bandits to open fire, and in the process two female adult passengers on board sustained bullet wounds. On 4th September, 2009 at about 16.20 hours, one motor vehicle, Reg. No. KAB 949W, was attacked by armed bandits near Sharp area. The driver defied an order to stop and the said bandits opened fire. As a result one passenger on board the said vehicle sustained bullet wounds. He was rushed to Isiolo General Hospital and later died while undergoing treatment. (b) The following are the measures the government has put in place to deal with the menace:- (i) provision of Security escort to all vehicles driving along the affected areas;
(ii) mobile police patrols co-ordinated by the District Security Intelligence Committee (DSIC), Isiolo, have been intensified along the affected areas.
Thank you Mr. Speaker, Sir. This is a very major road where supplies from Isiolo to the rest of the northern Kenya go through. From the Assistant Ministerâs answer, which is not exhaustive, it looks like this road has now become impossible for anyone to operate on. Why can the Ministry not go to the root cause of the problem, instead of addressing the symptoms, and follow up these bandits, as it is a very small area, and completely eliminate this problem?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Ministry is continuing to deal with this matter but the situation is aggravated by the presence of a number of grazers who do not even come from that area, and action is being taken to move them out of that area. The other action that the Government is taking is to strengthen the current police stations in the affected areas.
Thank you Mr. Speaker, Sir. The Assistant Minister has addressed this problem very casually. I neighbour Isiolo South, and what is happening lately is not something we can take lightly, not only in Isiolo South, but also in the larger Isiolo District, and the environs. Could the Assistant Minister tell the House whether they have a concrete plan--- They are quick enough to finish people when they want to do so, but very slow when they want problems to continue. Can he tell us of concrete steps, and in what period, by which they will be able to stop this problem?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, we are working with communities in the area through their leadership, such as parliamentarians and peace committees, to deal with this matter. With regard to security on the highways, particularly on this road, we will continue to provide security escorts, and to encourage people travelling along it to report to the police station before they use the road. But we are pursuing the bandits involved in those areas to deal with them.
Thank you Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am very annoyed by the way this Assistant Minister is answering this Question. The casual manner in which the Assistant Minister is answering this Question is itself questionable. How can he involve the security forces in following bandits instead of looking at the problem?
Assistant Minister! Mr. Mbugua is very annoyed with you.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, this hon. Member is fond of provoking me, but I will not get annoyed. We need a multi-pronged approach to deal with the security issue in northern Kenya. We need community policing; we need to deal with the availability of small arms and grazing management. There are a number of issues that we need to tackle to deal with this particular problem.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, this a very serious matter! In a span of three months, there have been so many incidents, and you can see the way the Assistant Minister has casually attended to this Question. The people in Isiolo cannot be involved in tackling that problem, because they are victims of this problem; so, the Assistant Ministerâs approach is wrong in the first instance. Could the Assistant Minister take this matter seriously, and ensure that the people of Isiolo are safe from this menace? The Ministry is handling this matter in a very casual manner.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will intensify the patrols in that particular area and increase security personnel to mop up the highway bandits. I also want to say that we need support from the communities living in that area, because the various communities are involved in criminal activities on that road. So we need information to come to the police.
asked the Minister for Youth Affairs and Sports:-
(a) Whether she could provide the status of the implementation of the tarmacking of the Hola-Garsen Road;
(b) Whether she could account for the Kshs900 million that had been set aside in the previous Budget for construction of the road;
(c) Whether she could explain why the contractor has taken so long to complete the road and when it will be completed; and,
(d) whether she could consider replacing the National Youth Service and engaging a more efficient contractor in the project.
Minister, Ministry of Youth Affairs and Sports! We will revisit that Question a little later. Mr. Lagat!
asked the Assistant Minister for Roads:-
(a) if he could explain why the construction of Mosoriot-Kapsabet road has not commenced;
(b) if he could also explain why construction work on Kapsabet- Sirwa-Yala Road has also not commenced and whether the tender has been awarded; and
(c) when works on the above roads will commence.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
(a) The construction of Mosoriot-Kapsabet Road has not commenced because the design for the same is not complete;
(b) The construction of Kapsabet-Sirwa-Yala Road has not commenced because the design of the same road has not been completed.
(c) the construction works for that section of Eldoret-Kapsabet Road will commence as soon as the design is complete.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think what the Assistant Minister is saying is not right because the Minister was there five months ago. They have started working on this road from Eldoret to Mosoriot and from Chavakali to Sirwa-Yala and yet it is one road. I do not know how complicated the design is from Sirwa-Yala to Kapsabet and also from Mosoriot to Kapsabet. The section that is left out is in my constituency. Both sides have been done but I do not know how complicated the design for this section in my constituency is.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Mosoriot-Kapsabet-Yala Road is part of the Eldoret-Kapsabet Road, otherwise referred to as C36. The design for Eldoret-Chavakali Road was awarded to M/s Vavas Engineering Consultants with Sogare Limited Consulting Engineers at a tender sum of Kshs51, 933,200. The design started on 6th April, 2009 and it will take nine months. Therefore, we expect completion of the same on 6th January, 2010. As soon as it is completed, the road project shall be procured and my
Mr. Speaker, Sir, one of the major problems in this Ministry is the disconnect between the Ministry head office and the field officers. A road like Stand Kisa to Khumusalaba was indicated as having been done when nothing was done. You know that very well. What is the Minister doing to ensure that there is proper linkage between the Ministry headquarters and the engineers in the field because there is lack of information between the field officers and the Ministry headquarters?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, to the contrary, I think the communication is not complete to the hon. Member. I am aware of all that. Let me continue to satisfy the hon. Member that I have actually allocated Kshs400 million for this development from the Development Budget in this yearâs budget and a Fuel Levy budget of Kshs150 million. I know that these roads are impassable. I have started a repair programme for this section and I am sure the hon. Member will soon see work on this section. I am using Kshs199,250,000 for the same
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think there are many contradictions in the answers given by the Minister because five months ago when the Minister came to the site, the machines had been brought, but they are just lying on the road side and yet he is saying that they are still doing the design. How can machines be brought to the site before the design is done?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am yet to prove that the machines that were brought to the site are for the purposes of my work.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. This road runs across my constituency and I want to confirm to the House that the Minister himself, the Permanent Secretary and I, went to the site and the contractors were on the ground and had started the work. Is the Assistant Minister in order to come here and mislead the House by talking of a different tender when a tender has already been awarded?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have clearly said that I have started repair of the road for the purposes of making it motorable. I have clearly said that I have not started constructing this road for the purpose of fully building it.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Order, hon. Member for Emgwen!
asked the Minister for Roads:- (a) whether he could provide a list of people who worked under the
Programme in Limuru Constituency showing the number of days each worked and how much was paid to each person;
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg, to reply but before that, I beg for your indulgence because I had answered all of these Questions except for more information that I was to give to the House today as follows:-
The total money allocated to the Ministry of Roads for the implementation of the
Programme is Kshs800 million. Out of these, Kshs770 million was distributed equally to all the constituencies of this country and this constituency received Kshs2.4 million. Kshs30 million has been allocated to the Kenya Urban Roads Authority for the purposes of maintaining the urban roads.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the other information that I was supposed to give to the House is on the amount of money used for administrative purposes. No money was removed from this Fund for the purposes of administrative costs. The officers on the ground used the normal revenue allocated to the districts to administer this Fund. So, all the funds that were allocated for this purpose went to the work.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am fairly satisfied with the answer from the Assistant Minister, only that I have noted that in the previous timeâs answer, which I was not able to interrogate further, he gave only a span of two weeks for Kazi Kwa Vijana Programme in my constituency. That has elapsed and nothing else is going on. When is he likely to reintroduce this in every district, because this was an initiative to create jobs for the youths?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, whereas I would be very much of the same opinion as the hon. Member to have more of this work in the constituency, there is no provision for funds for Kazi Kwa Vijana this Financial Year as he knows because he participated in the passing of the Budget.
asked the Minister for Roads:- (a) whether he could state the criteria used in classifying roads; and, (b) whether he could provide the per-district breakdown of classified roads across the country.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) There are five general classifications of roads based on geographic criteria for end points being connected to a particular road and this is as follows:- Class A - Internal trunk roads â these are roads linking Kenya with neighbouring countries in the region. Class B - National trunk roads â these are roads linking the international trunk roads to provincial centres.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wish to thank the Assistant Minister for that elaborate answer. He has mentioned special purpose roads which link potential agricultural areas and those that serve insecurity areas that suffer from cattle rustling. Could he consider improving, at least, one of those special purpose roads per every constituency as part of the stimulus package?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, that is a fair question. I will endeavour to do that. After I receive a consultant report that will give me the road mapping for the whole country, I will consider that. I expect to get that report by the end of this year. I am sure the Member will be satisfied with the results.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I sit in the District Roads Committee (DRC) and we have been doing annual work plans. We still have unclassified roads which connect production centres. When will such roads be classified?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have authorized an international consultant M/s M and Carlo Bros. to give me a study over the same. I have spent Kshs137 million for the same purpose, so that I can be able to reach out to the roads that the hon. Member has talked about. I am sure he will be happy when I discover his demands.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, will the Assistant Minister consider the density of traffic and usage of those roads when he will be classifying them?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, yes, I will.
asked the Minister for Youth Affairs and Sports:- (a) whether she could provide the status of the implementation of the tarmacking of Hola-Garsen Road; (b) whether she could account for the Kshs900 million that had been set aside in the previous budget for the construction of the road; (c) whether she could explain why the contractor has taken so long to complete the road and when it will be completed; and, (d) whether she could consider replacing the National Youth Service and engaging a more efficient contractor to do the project.
Minister for Youth Affairs and Sports! Those of you on the Front Bench--- Maybe, the Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs, are you able to explain the absence of the Minister for Youth Affairs and Sports?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I thank you for noticing me. But I am not the Leader of Government Business and so long as this House does not have a Leader of Government Business, I am really at a loss. But I have a lot of time for the hon. Minister. I will alert her that you were looking for her. I am sure she will present herself as quickly as possible. Thank you.
The import of that is that no explanation has been offered to the House as to why the Minister nor the Assistant Ministers are absent. In those circumstances, therefore, the conduct of the Minister is disorderly and we will impose sanctions on her, beginning forthwith.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. This Question was on the Order Paper yesterday and the Chair ordered that it should come today. But, again, the Minister is not there. Mr. Speaker will offer the sanctions but, again, there is no indication as to when the Question will come up. So, we may also suffer unfairly. So, I beg you to indicate when we could have it on the Order Paper.
I direct that the Question be deferred to Tuesday next week. But in the, meantime, the Chair will deal with the Minister in accordance with the direction that I have already given.
asked the Minister for Water and Irrigation what became of the two dams that were to be constructed in Arror and Chesuman locations of Marakwet District to assist the community of Kerio Valley in irrigation and power generation, considering that the funds were factored in the development plans for 1995/1996.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I apologize for being late. However, I beg to reply. I am aware of the plans to construct the dam for irrigation and power generation in Arror River Basin in 1986. Kerio valley Development Authority (KVDA) commissioned M/s Bebingg Consulting Engineers of Milan, Italy, to carry out a feasibility study for a multi-purpose scheme. The study indicated the suitability of the project to generate hydro-power and develop a potential area of about 6,460 hectares for irrigation. The project has not been implemented due to lack of funds. The cost of project implementation was estimated at US$240 million. That is an equivalent to Kshs16.803 billion.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am not satisfied with the answer that the Assistant Minister has given. My Question is very clear and it appears that the Assistant Minster was cheated by the officers who gave him the answer. I am aware that Kerio Valley Development Authority is under the Ministry of Regional Development Authorities. I would have directed this Question to the Ministry of Regional Development Authorities. In 1995/1996, there were some plans to construct some dams in Chesuman and Arrow locations in Marakwet District. The implementation cost was factored in the Budget at that particular time. Where did that money go? That money was from the Japanese International Co-operation Agency (JICA).
Mr. Speaker, Sir, if I am not wrong, this is the Question that the Member asked. He asked what became of the two dams which were to be constructed in Arror and Chesuman locations in Marakwet District to assist the community in Kerio Valley in irrigation and power generation, considering that the funds were factored in the development plans of 1995/1996. In 1994/1995, they requested for 11 small dams which could not produce hydro-power. The only attempt that was ever been made in that area to have a dam for irrigation and production of hydro-power was in 1986. That is all that we have in the records. Otherwise, they had requested for 11 small dams. I can table that information before the House. Those small dams cannot be used for either irrigation or hydro-power generation.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I understand that there are dams that have been established for purposes of assisting people do irrigation. What plans do you have to establish dams in other constituencies, so that they can utilize arable land to produce food through irrigation?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, when we talk about dams that can be used for irrigation, we are talking about spending about Kshs1 billion per dam. Currently, the construction of Sasumua Dam is going on. It will cost the Government Kshs4 billion. The Badasa Dam will cost the Government Kshs2.5 billion. The Kiserian Dam will cost the Government Kshs800 million. The Umaa Dam will cost the Government another Kshs700 million. Those are among the dams that are being constructed. I believe we do not have additional funds to construct large dams.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am not denying that Kerio Valley Development Authority project was not there. It is a project that only exists on paper in Marakwet, but not in other places. That one has already been dumped and put aside. Only two dams were supposed to be done in Chesuman and Arror locations. I will give the Assistant Minister time to go back and come back to the House with a proper answer. Otherwise, Mr. Speaker, Sir, you will allow me to bring the information about the funds that were used on those two dams.
Fair enough. Mr. Assistant Minister, you have no question to respond to. Next Question by the hon. Member for Turkana Central!
asked the Minister for Medical Services:-
(a) when he will provide X-ray equipment, Haemoglobinometer and Biochemistry machines to Lodwar District Hospital; and,
(b)when he will upgrade the hospital to a referral status, given that it serves six districts in the North Rift. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I noted that the Minister was getting agitated because he does not have an Assistant Minister since Mr. Mungatana resigned.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, my good friend, hon. Ethuro--- I was not agitated; I was just excited about your excitement!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) X-ray equipment, Haemoglobinometer and Biochemistry machines are available in Lodwar District Hospital. However, the hospital is occasionally unable to render services with those machines owing to breakdowns, lack of accessories or stock- out of consumables. Such interruptions may take time to address because service companies and suppliers of accessories and consumables are located far away either in Nairobi or Eldoret. (b) It is true that Lodwar District Hospital is a referral hospital for six districts in the North Rift. It has been identified to serve that role because it is relatively more developed compared to the outlying facilities. To enhance its capacity to serve that purpose, the Ministry plans to progressively rehabilitate and upgrade infrastructure in the hospital in the coming years. That will be matched by progressive deployment of specialists in various fields of medicine, depending on the output of our training institutions.
As a beginning, Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Ministry will, in the current financial year, that is 2009/2010, allocate the hospital Kshs8 million for rehabilitation of buildings.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to commend the Minister for giving a good answer and, particularly for being truthful.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, you have heard the Minister say that the machines are available but, occasionally, the hospital is unable to render services with those machines owing to breakdowns, lack of accessories and stock-out of consumables. Those are just management issues. He has also confirmed that the service companies and suppliers of accessories and consumables are located far away either in Nairobi or Eldoret. From Eldoret to Lodwar, it is 400 kilometers, while Lodwar is about 1,000 kilometers from Nairobi.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is unfortunate because the contractual agreements that the Minister had made with those suppliers before were not really very user-friendly. I accept that. The medical engineering departments of the Ministry and Kenya Medical Training Colleges leave a lot to be desired. Indeed, we should invest in medical engineering so that, we can have medical workshops in places like Lodwar to service the machines.
Secondly, Mr. Speaker, Sir, in procuring such machines, we should not involve ourselves in procuring too many makes and models that cannot be serviced. The situation in the Ministry at the moment is that we have too many makes and models of such machines. That is why you find that the suppliers are only in places like Nairobi and Eldoret. The market for suppliers is not that robust. But, in the meantime, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to assure the hon. Member that the X-ray machine that had broken down three months ago has been repaired. Secondly, the Haemoglobinometer is currently in good condition. The engineers from Eldoret were called in to make sure that they service the machine regularly. They should not wait until it is too exhausted and breaks down. The Biochemistry analyzer is also in good condition at the moment. However, presently, it lacks accessories amount to about Kshs24,000. Instructions have been given to the Medical Superintendent to ensure that those accessories are purchased and fitted into the machine.
So, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I do appreciate the hon. Memberâs concern but, given the past history of procurement of medical equipment in the Ministry, the best we can do at the moment is to ensure that repairs and management are done promptly, and I am currently doing that.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, in view of the current upgrading of constituencies into districts, what is the Ministry doing to make sure that such vital equipment as X-ray machines are provided countrywide?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, we have a very big demand for X-ray machines and they are not very cheap equipment. Secondly, the technology of X-ray machines changes very fast and rather than using the analog machines, it is now advisable to use the digital ones. I was in Kabarnet District Hospital on Monday, where there is a very good X-ray centre, but with no X-ray machines. That is because the old X- ray machine that belongs to the technology of the past has broken down. But we intend to buy a new analog machine to replace it. What we lack, as I have told this House over and over again, are sufficient funds from the Treasury to buy appropriate and adequate equipment for all our district hospitals. That is because in all district and sub-district hospitals, it is mandatory that they should have such machines as X-rays. I do hope that in the coming financial year, the Treasury will find it important to give the Ministry of Medical Services sufficient funds to equip the district and sub-district hospitals.
Ask your last question, hon. Ethuro!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Minister, in answering part âbâ of the Question, talked about progressive deployment of specialists. When are you going to
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to assure the hon. Member that all pending bills in the Ministry, especially in the district hospitals are currently being addressed. The district hospitals need to combine forces with the Ministry to use some of the cost-sharing resources that they have to deal with this issue. This is because some of the pending bills like those of food and consumables are payable from the cost-sharing kitty.
With regard to specialists, I am aware that there is a surgeon at the Marsabit District Hospital at the moment. There is also one gynecologist and three medical officers. A hospital as big as Marsabit should also have an Ear, Nose and Throat (ENT) specialist and a physician. I know it should have more than that at the moment, but basically, that should be the minimum requirement. The problem at the moment is that our universities do not produce as many specialists as we should have. For example, there are very few anesthetists being produced at the moment. We have succeeded in getting the University of Nairobi to admit more anesthetists than they have done before. However, this is an on-going struggle and I hope that as we improve the terms of service of doctors in the Ministry of Medical Services, we will attract many more doctors from the private sector who will join us so that we can fill the gap that exists amongst specialists.
Hon. Members the balance of the four Questions on the last page of the Order Paper are deferred to Tuesday, next week at 2.30 p.m. They will take priority over Questions that are due then.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. You will recall that you directed that the Question that was answered by the Assistant Minister for Trade, Mr. Omingo on African Growth and Opportunity Act (AGOA) appears on todayâs Order Paper. That did not happen, although the Question was partly answered. The Assistant Minister had promised to give a complete answer today. I request that the Question also appears on the Order Paper on Tuesday, next week so that the answer can be completed.
That is fine. It is so ordered.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, on a similar issue, on 27th August, 2009, you also ordered the Minister for Medical Services, Prof. Anyangâ-Nyongâo to come with a complete answer to the Question about health facilities in the larger Turkana region. You gave him two weeks which are due today.
It is also directed that, that Question appears on the Order Paper on Tuesday, next week. Similarly, it should take priority over Questions scheduled for that day.
We will take one Ministerial Statement from the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security because we do not have time for more.
We will only take three clarifications. Is there anybody who is interested? Yes, Ms. Odhiambo!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, could the Minister clarify why the Government always seems to be applying different standards when alleged abusers are of different races from the general population of this country? I have been dealing with cases of children for a long time, since the time I was the Director of CRADLE. Every
Minister, please, take notes. We will allow three interventions. Dr. Khalwale!
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I tabled in this House, two documents â an affidavit from Khaminwa & Khaminwa Advocates, which showed that these children had appeared before him and actually indicated that, having given the initial information, they were coerced by their parents, having been induced with goodies, so that they could reserve the evidence, which they did retract. The second document I tabled in this House was a video tape, and the Chair ruled that the Minister may use the resources at his disposal to make sure that he authenticates the two documents that I tabled. Could the Minister tell us what the findings of the Government were in respect of this matter?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, could the Minister clarify how many of the 139 convicted cases involved high profile personalities and how many involved peasant Kenyans?
Minister, please, respond!
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I beg that the Minister responds to the question on the findings of the Government on the video tape that I tabled in this House.
Order! I think the Minister has responded that all these matters have been referred to the Attorney-General, who has directed that further investigations be carried out in the matter pertaining to Mr. Kizito. It is possible that the matter will end up in prosecution. So, that matter is dealt with.
Hon. Members, I had directed that we would take one Ministerial Statement, but we have a matter that has been pending before this House for the past two months. So, I think we will have to accommodate the Minister for Lands to deliver that Ministerial Statement. He said he would do so in four minutes.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am grateful. I will make this Ministerial Statement at the request of Mr. Wamalwa.
Mount Elgon Hospital land in Kitale was initially held by the District Council of Trans Nzoia for a term of 99 years, from 1st May, 1937. The land measures approximately 8.11 acres and was allocated specifically for hospital use. Pursuant to Legal Notices Nos.338 of 1957 and 453 of 1962, the land was vested in Kitale County Council with effect from 18th June, 1997. In 1963, Kitale County Council transferred the said land to Mount Elgon Hospital Trust to manage as trustees. In 1990, a new list of trustees was presented for record purposes, and they were Messrs. Philip Matanya, Nathaniel Tum, Aradi, Peter Kinyanjui, Chief Noah Akuto, Mr. Enock Imbuye and Mr. G.B. Ruto.
In 1996, an application was made by the trustees for consent to have the land transferred to Mount Elgon Hospital Limited, and consent was granted. The land was subsequently transferred to Mount Elgon Hospital Limited on 20th September, 1996 at a consideration of Kshs1.2 million, which was far below the market value. An application to charge the same land by Mount Elgon Hospital Limited was made and consent granted, and the property was charged to Standard Chartered Bank of Kenya Limited to secure a loan of Kshs4.06 million.
On 20th September, 2005, a Government caveat was registered on the title, following a request by the Kenya Anti-Corruption Commission (KACC) to prevent further transactions being effected. The Ministry is now looking for ways of reverting the property back to the public and have the hospital managed by trustees as originally envisaged, without compromising or undermining the interests and rights of the public.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is true to say that this is one of the transactions that were, on the face of it, fraudulent, because under Condition No.7, on the title, it is stated that the âguarantee shall not sub-divide the land in any manner whatsoever, and shall not sublet, assign or otherwise dispose of any portion thereof or any building erected thereon.â Consequently, in our view, the consent to transfer the property was wrongly granted. I assure the hon. Member that we are doing everything possible to have this hospital and the land revert to the people.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, is the Minister aware that these illegal occupants of Mount Elgon Hospital are in the process of disposing of assets belonging to the hospital, including cutting down over 20-year old trees â over 20 of them have been cut down and sold â including selling of staff quarters and other assets on this property? If so, what remedial measures is the Government putting in place to ensure that the public interest in this property is protected?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, first, there can be no transactions to transfer or in any way deal with an interest in the land itself. On that one, I can assure the hon. Member. I have had an occasion to visit the hospital, and I know the degree of waste that is going on, in fact, not only in terms of the permanent structures and the trees but also in terms of some of the equipment that was inherited from the old management. I have sat and talked with the Minister for Medical Services. We are
Order, hon. Members. Those who want to seek Ministerial Statements can do so now.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wish to ask for a Ministerial Statement from the Minister of State for Special Programmes in respect of Internally Displaced Persons (IDPs). I would like the Minister to inform the House the number and location of IDPs still in the camps. What plans does she have to have them resettled before the impeding
rains? How much money does she require? How much has been availed this year? Have the integrated IDPs been factored in any of her plans?
I would also like to know how much money has so far been used to resettle IDPs and the numbers of those settled.
Could I have an indication on when that Ministerial Statement will be availed?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will issue that statement on Thursday, next week.
Fair enough. It is so ordered.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to seek a Ministerial Statement from the Minister for Industrialization regarding the appointment and subsequent dismissal of the Director of Kenya Bureau of Standards.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, in seeking this Ministerial Statement, I would like the Minister to confirm to this House that three months ago he appointed, on recommendation of the board, one Dr. Kioko Mangâeli. Dr. Mangâeli was reappointed after recommendation of the board and subsequent appointment by the Minister. I want the Minister to confirm to the House that on the 8th of this month, a letter was sent to his Permanent Secretary (PS), copied to him by the PS, Secretary the Cabinet and Head of the Public Service, Amb. Francis Muthaura which reads as follows:- âI have been directed to inform you that the Government has decided to relieve Eng. Dr. Kioko Mangâeli, the Managing Director of Kenya Bureau of Standards of his duties in the public interest.â I wish to table the document.
I want the Minister to tell us, if according to the Standard Act he is the appointing authority, where does Amb. Muthaura get powers to ask for the removal of one Dr. Mangâeli? This House is very much aware that Dr. Mangâeli stood firm when the scandal
Yes, Mr. Shakeel.
Order, Mr. Shakeel. Hon. Members, those of you in the Back-bench, all these microphones work. So, I do not see why we lose time struggling to come to the Front.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The microphones are defective.
Order, Mr. K. Kilonzo. If there is any defect in the microphones then it should be rectified.
Proceed, Mr. Shakeel.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to seek a Ministerial Statement from the Minister for Information and Communications regarding the implementation of the ICT Economic Stimulus Package for all constituencies which was proposed by the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance when presenting the Budget for the Fiscal Year 2009/2010. In the Statement I would like the Minister to address the following issues:-
(i) If the Ministry can confirm that it plans to acquire a bus for each of the 210 constituencies at the cost of Kshs6 million each to serve as a mobile computer centre and indicate where from;
(ii) Whether the buses have been ordered. If so, the cost and component of each bus and whether the relevant Government procurement procedures have been followed;
(iii) To confirm if each of the buses will be fitted with 12 computers and a solar panel and indicate what the cost will be respectively;
(iv) The arrangement that he has made for the payment of remuneration for each of the drivers of these buses and the cost of maintenance and fueling;
(v) What justification does the Minister have for importation of these buses when locally-assembled buses can serve the same purpose equally well?
(vi) What is the viability of the project, especially considering that the cost of each bus constitutes over 85 per cent of the project cost? (i) How does the Minister propose to serve between 15 and 30 secondary schools per constituency when the IT bus can only hold 12 computers. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Fair enough. Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance, this seems to be your baby, is it not?
No, it is for the Minister for Information and Communications.
Even then, you are the senior-most now on the Front Bench.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, a Ministerial Statement will be issued on Thursday, next week.
It is so ordered.
Minister for Industrialization, will you indicate when you will bring the Statement pertaining to the Managing Director of the Kenya Bureau of Standards?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I did not quite hear exactly what is required of me. I think I can issue a Statement sometimes next week---
Order, Mr. Minister. Where were you? I thought you were in the House?
I was not, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
It is a request for a Ministerial Statement on the fate of the Managing Director of the Kenya Bureau of Standards as to why his services have been terminated apparently wrongfully and a letter has been tabled which you can look at.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will issue the Statement on Wednesday, next week.
Fair enough, it is so ordered.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, for about three months I have been expecting a Ministerial Statement from the Minister for Youth Affairs and Sports on the appointment and contractual arrangement for the coach of the national soccer team Harambee Stars, Mr. Antoine Hey. That Statement has not been forthcoming for over three months now. Could you kindly give an indication on when that Statement can be tabled in the House?
Is there a Minister or Assistant Minister for Youth Affairs and Sports? They were not here earlier on.
Mr. Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance, unfortunately, the record we have is that your Minister for Youth Affairs and Sports together with the Assistant Ministers are really not rising to the challenge of their offices. Are you able to give an indication when this Statement will come and what you are doing about their performance?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Statement has been pending for a while. We, however, will make sure it is brought to the House next week on Wednesday.
Fair enough! The Statement will be brought on Wednesday next week!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise under Standing Order No.76 to make a Personal Statement in regard to what is appearing in the media today and the documents Tabled by the Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs in this House yesterday. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have had a four-month encounter with the Kenya Anti- Corruption Commission (KACC). That was immediately after National Rainbow Coalition (NARC) took over the Government after the 2002 General Elections. The issues they wanted to find out from me were three. One of them was to look at all the contracts I have ever had with the Kenya Government. They perused a contract I had with the Kenyan Government involving a company in which I was the Director; Sololo Outlets Limited. After four months of thorough work, they looked at the contract we had signed to sell 400 houses to the National Social Security Fund (NSSF) at approximately Kshs3 million each, amounting to a total of Kshs1.2 billion. The houses which had actually been transferred to the NSSF were 627. They advised me to go back to the NSSF and get my 227 houses back. The second issue was to do with the payment of land rent for a property that I sold to the Kenya Medical Research Institute (KEMRI). They did insist that I had not paid land rent amounting to Kshs8 million. After a lengthy explanation, they agreed with me, and nobody ever came back to tell me that it was me who was supposed to pay the land rent on the property that I sold to KEMRI. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the third issue was to do with a letter. When I was the Minister for Rural Development, I wrote a letter to Prof. Ongeri requesting him to honour a pledge of Kshs10,000 which he had made in a harambee I had in my constituency.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, Members are consulting so loudly, I cannot even hear myself.
Order, hon. Members! Can we please lower the level of our consultations? Proceed, Mr. Jirongo!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, on the letter I wrote to Prof. Ongeri requesting him to honour a pledge of Kshs10,000, I argued that Prof. Ongeri was a very senior Minister and there is no way I would have used my position to harass him. Prof. Ongeri honoured his pledge and paid the Kshs10, 000. After four months of staying in my office, they found me to be clean and left my office. What is disturbing is that when one reads what is on the headline of the DailyNation newspaper today, one believes that, that is the team that has looted this country and brought it to its knees and not people who are being questioned for failing to honour Kshs10,000 for harambee . Mr. Speaker, Sir, in my view, the âbig fishâ that all of us were referring to is the Kshs158 billion of the Goldenberg, the Kshs7.5 billion of Anglo Leasing and the money stashed in banks outside this country. This money is able to run this country for five years. If one looks at the names that are on the headline of the Daily Nation newspaper today, one wonders what the purpose of the Minister was and what the intention of Mr.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to make a Personal Statement under Standing Order No.76. I, hon. Waititu, MP Embakasi, was charged by the KACC for a case of conflict of interest when I was the Deputy Mayor of Nairobi. The case went the full process of the court and I was found innocent. I would like the records to be set straight. I have no case pending with the KACC. I would urge the Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs to update his records so that in future, he does not include my name in such a list, like he did yesterday in this House. His Statement was highlighted in todayâs newspapers. It was both damaging to my character and image as the MP for Embakasi. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I further request that when the Minister updates his records, he apologizes to me as the aggrieved person.
Order, hon. Members! Hon. Members, I have taken time to peruse the documents tabled yesterday by the Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs. I have found that according to the practice and directions that have been given in this House on admissibility of documents, the following documents are not authentic and their source cannot be verified as they are unsigned:- (i)Schedule Title Cases filed by the KACC for Recovery of Embezzled funds; 76 cases â the schedule is unsigned.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Would I be in order to suggest that this is a matter of very serious national interest and that it be approached with sobriety? In my tabling of those documents, I did not read a single name and I explained that by saying---
Order, Minister! Note that those Members who stood under Standing Order No.76 made Personal Statements and they are not open to debate! Maybe you want to deal with the documents I have ruled inadmissible.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am not going there.
Okay, fair enough!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the tabling was driven by a request by a hon. Member who requested that he be shown the respect of what he wanted. If you feel that any of those documents were not authenticated, allow me to table the ones which are authenticated because I have them. This is a matter of national interest. Would I be in order to say a request for a Ministerial Statement does not expire until satisfied?
Order, hon. Minister! With respect to the documents that I have found to be inadmissible, if you now have documents that you think are admissible, you may proceed to lay them on the Table but they will not immediately be admitted until I have had time to peruse them.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I respect that and I accept your ruling. You may proceed!
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. In view of the fact that the documents that you refused to admit were purported to come from Government sources, and in view of the fact that the Minister is a Minister of the same Government, I wish to invoke Standing Order No.97(f), which provides that if a Member of this House deliberately gives false information to the House, then the Member is grossly out or order, and can then, under Standing Order No.98, be named.
Order, hon. Members! I have looked at the Standing Order that the Member for Ikolomani is citing for the demand that the Minister be named. First, so that it is clear, the Chair did not refuse to admit documents. The Chair has found the documents not to be admissible. I have no reason to refuse to admit documents. As to
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I did not give anything deliberately false. First of all, it was not false. The only thing lacking was the signature of the Director of the Kenya Anti- Corruption Commission (KACC) initially, which I have now rectified. The material is legitimate. Moreover, this material has been tabled by my predecessors, the former Ministers for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs. They have continued to lay on the Table of this House, the Reports of the KACC. If they have not done so, I stand to be corrected. However, the fact of the matter is that this is not false material, nor did I do this deliberately. In fact, you will recall that I mentioned to you, before I sat down, that if you felt that there was something that I had overlooked, you could let me know. I did that yesterday. I had no intention of misleading the House, I have no such intention and I will not do so.
Order! some matters must rest when they have been clearly put. Mr. Minister, you may proceed to lay on the Table those documents and I will peruse them, consider them in the light of what has transpired in the House this afternoon and make further findings on them.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have already laid them on the Table.
Fair enough! I will look at those documents and give directions as necessary. Hon. Members, before we move to Order Nos.8 and 9, I have the following communication to make. Please, bear with me for it might be a bit long.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Thank you very much for your ruling. Although I have fallen victim of the same ruling, I welcome it today. However, I rise under Standing Order No.36 which talks about the business of the House as set out on the Order Paper. Standing Order No.36 (2) states:- âBusiness shall be disposed of in the sequence in which it appears in the Order Paper or in such other sequence as the Speaker may, for the convenient of the House, direct.â
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I now wish to invite you for the convenience of the House that you re-arrange the Order Paper so that we may then invite the Chairman of the Committee on Delegated Legislation to move that we discuss this Report.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Is it related to the same matter?
Partly, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Order, Mr. Olago!
Hon. Members, I have listened to the point of order raised by the hon. Member for Chepalungu and I am satisfied that he has a genuine concern. Similarly, I am satisfied that the business falling under Orders No.8 and No.9 are of equal national importance. What is significant is that the business falling under Order No.8 was partially transacted yesterday. So, in terms of what should take precedence and priority over the other, given the relatively equal public interest component, I think the matter which has already been partly transacted will have priority.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. During the debate, I did raise an issue under the Constitution. I did specifically point out Section 17. You promised to include it in your ruling. I was fairly attentive but I did not hear it.
Hon. Members, the matter that Mr. Kioni is raising pertains to the concept or doctrine of collective responsibility, particularly in relation to Ministers and Assistant Ministers in respect to actions that are taken by the Executive, more so, specifically His Excellency, the President. This is a matter on which, in fact, already there are rulings from the history of this House. The position, as far as I am concerned, ought to be clear to hon. Members. But in
Hon. Members, we will continue with contributions from where we left from. Those of you who had not contributed are at liberty to do so.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, thank you for giving me a chance to contribute. From the outset, I wish to say that I support the Motion.
As rightly argued by Mr. Namwamba when he was moving the amendment, the Government does not need the adoption of this Report to take action but in order that the Government does not have an excuse for failing to act on Mau, I believe we should pass this Report which contains good recommendations. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I believe that the concerns that were raised by the hon. Members who wanted the amendment could still be taken care of, even when the Report has been adopted. As Mr. Speaker has ruled previously, the Committee of the House is not a stop from inquiring further into the matter, even as the Government proceeds with its action. I want to state that the Governmentâs handling of the Mau Saga has been less than satisfactory and it is the Government that is causing the tension.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the consultations are too loud!
Order! Order, hon. Members!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, as I was saying, the handling of the Government of this Mau saga has been less satisfactory. It is the Governmentâs ineptitude
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Notwithstanding the very well reasoned submissions by hon. Members yesterday and today, I wish to kindly, with all humility, urge you to invoke the provisions of Standing Order No.216, which says that:- âA Motion may, with the approval of the Speaker, be moved by any Member, either with or without notice that the proceedings on any specified business be exempted from the provisions of Part VII (Sitting and Adjournments of the House), Part X (order of business)---â
In relation to that Standing Order, I wish to ask that the debate on this subject be terminated now and we proceed to next Order by invoking the provisions of Standing Order No.216.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, thank you for giving me the opportunity to oppose what my Learned Senior, hon. Olago, is urging you to do. We know that the matter of Kenya Anti-Corruption Commission (KACC) is very important, but we also know that, equally important, is the matter of the Mau and the environment in this country. Indeed, we are not just addressing the Mau. You will hear some of us talk about many catchment areas that have been destroyed through the reckless management of the environment and our forests in this country. It is a matter of peoplesâ livelihoods. I do not think that we should start re-arranging the order of business in the House simply because we want to dispose of the matter of KACC. We will still be here on Tuesday. If we finish the debate, the issue of KACC will come after this. I want to urge the Chair to reject the application by hon. Olago. It has no basis, no rationale and no meaning. It is simply meant to cause confusion in the House. We are all here to contribute very intensely to the issue of not only the Mau, but all the water towers in this country that are under threat and that spell doom to the future of this country. I beg to oppose.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I also want to oppose that proposal by hon. Olago.
Order, hon. Members. Hon. Olago, indeed, hon. Ruto sought the Chair to invoke the provisions of the Standing Order No.36. The Chair issued a directive here that the business will continue. So, that matter has rested. So, let us proceed! Hon. Githae!
Thank you Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this very important Motion on Mau. Kenyans will recall that 20 years ago, one Prof. Wangari Maathai went round this country telling Kenyans that in the next 20 years, we were going to pay dearly for mismanaging our forests, cutting down trees, polluting our rivers and
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to support this very important Motion. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the issue of Mau is a crisis in this country. Many people are trivializing the matter. They are looking at it as if it is a normal issue or problem. But we are sitting on a disaster. It is a disaster because there are communities that will be extinct in Kenya in the next 50 years. They will either move out of Kenya or invade others in their places. So, we have a choice here of either protecting or destroying ourselves. Indeed, we are in a path of destruction. I have heard other hon. Members saying: âLet us move quietly in a way which will be humaneâ, or whatever! We are not saying that the responsibility of humaneness will be on the Government. First and foremost, that is an issue of corruption and impunity. If we go back to history, today, the entire pastoralist community of the Maasai has lost all their entire livelihood. Where they used to go for rotational grazing of their animals during the dry periods has been occupied by other people. Some people have cultivated the land. The moment you move your cattle across there, you will be arrested for trespassing. Most of those title deeds are in the hands of the people. We are saying that we should respect the sanctity of title deeds. Yes, but let us also respect corruption. That is corruption and, as the nation of
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Could the hon. Member substantiate his statement? He has said that some people in this House were allocated land in the Mau Forest. Could he name them?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the names are in the Report.
On which page?
You just need to get---
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this is a very serious issue.
Mr. Konchella, you will have to substantiate your allegations. You cannot impute improper motive against other Members of Parliament, either singularly or collectively, without bringing evidence before the House.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I withdraw those remarks because my colleagues are agitated.
Withdraw and apologise!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I withdraw and apologise, knowing that history will judge me right in the future.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, on a point of information!
Does the hon. Member want your information? Proceed!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, he wants my information and that is why he has gone to sit down.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have not allowed the hon. Member to inform me.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to inform the hon. Member that it is Mr. ole Ntimama who has land in Mau Forest.
Order, Mr. Ruto! Did I hear you impute improper motives against Mr. ole Ntimama? Did the Chair hear you do that?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I was informing the hon. Member who was on the Floor that some of the people who live within Mau Forest include Mr. ole Ntimama. That is a fact. He allocated himself that land when he was the Chairman of Narok County Council. I can bring the details of that farm if I am required to do so.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Could the hon. Member show this House where my name appears in this Report? I have no land in the Mau. I have no land anywhere including Ndabibi. I am a very clean man. The hon. Member sub-divided his land and sold it to his constituents. That is why he does not want them to get out of Mau Forest. The hon. Member took their land at home and now he does not want them to go back to their shamba.
Order, hon. Members! The Chair will not tolerate this anymore. Mr. Ruto and Mr. ole Ntimama, you understand the Standing Orders. You cannot discuss the conduct of an hon. Member or impute an improper motive without bringing a substantive Motion. Could we have a civilized debate in line with our Standing Orders?
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. We will not go out of this unless Mr. Ruto shows us the page where my name is mentioned in this Report.
Order, Mr. ole Ntimama! Whereas the Chair was willing to do that---
On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Order, hon. Member!
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Order! When the Chair tells you order, you should be orderly! Order, hon. ole Lankas!
Mr. ole Ntimama, whereas the Chair was in a perfect position to make sure that Mr. Ruto either apologises and withdraws on the impution of improper motive against you, you also did the same. Under the circumstances, you are both at fault. Let us have a civilized debate on this matter. Two wrongs do not make a right.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
What is your point of order, Mr. ole Kapando!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I appreciate that you know that my heritage is originally from the Maasai.
Indeed, you have confirmed your heritage is from the Maasai. So, I was not at fault to say âole Kapandoâ. Proceed!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is very important that when issues of such magnitude and significance to this country are raised by Members of Parliament, even if they accuse each other, it is not enough for them to just apologise and withdraw the remarks they have made. They should actually substantiate those remarks. If Mr. ole
And vice versa!
Order, hon. Members! You have to acquaint yourselves with not only the rules, but also the practice of this House. We have been in this House for over one year now. Mr. Kabando wa Kabando, you know exactly what to do. It is not the Chair to ask an hon. Member to substantiate his or her remarks. It is you to stand up in your place and seek the substantiation. The Chair has given a ruling on that. You waited until the Chair gave a ruling on that matter and then rose on a point of order.
Hon. Members, the Chair will enforce the Standing Orders of this House. In no way, will the Chair allow this thing to get out of control. You know that very well. Proceed, Mr. Konchella.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Hon. ole Ntimama is a respected leader of the Maasai people. I know he has defended the Mau Forest for the sake of mankind and not because of his own interests.
It has taken environmental experts one year to come up with this Report. We, the leaders from the Mau region have been called to attend numerous meetings held by the Prime Minsiter in his Office. We have addressed this issue and agreed that the problem of Mau Forest can only be solved if we adopt this Report which covers all the problems all of us here are addressing. So, this is a Report that we must respect, as a House and I urge all hon. Members to support it. This Report is not cast on stone. We can still amend it where necessary as we implement it. However, the Government should have the resources voted by this House in order to implement the eviction of people from the Mau Forest.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we hoped that before the rains set in, nobody should be in Mau Forest. If you go there, you will see destruction going on and it is time we phased out this problem. I would like this House to know that the Maasai Mau has the largest forest cover and if it is destroyed, we will not have water for our cattle. There will also be no rain for the people who live in Kericho and their tea and other crops will not grow.
It has taken one year to do this Report. Even if we asked the relevant Departmental Committee to go through this Report as they wanted yesterday, they will not be able to do what has been done by more than 20 institutions to produce this document. This document covers the entire Mau Complex because the rivers that flow to Lake Baringo, Lake Natron and the Mara River have dried up. I invite hon. Members of this House to visit the Maasai Mara so that they can see what has happened. Zebras and Wildebeasts are crossing---
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Due to the sensitivity of this Motion and since many hon. Members want to contribute, I request the Chair to limit the time a Member takes so that many Members can get a chance to contribute.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to turn to Recommendation âFâ on page 47 of this Report. The Task Force recommended that the Maasai Mau Trust Land Forest should be gazetted and managed by an autonomous body contracted by the Narok County Council. This is trustland which belongs to Narok County Council. I recommend that the Kenya Wildlife Service (KWS) and the Narok County Council form a task force--- This is because even if you go to the Mau Forest
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
What is it?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, who has been arrested so far? Nobody has been arrested. So, if the President issues orders---
Order, Mr. Konchela! An hon. Member is on a point of order.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the hon. Member has just indicated to us that there is one Minister who can perform better than other Ministers. Is he correct to give the opinion that one Minister is better than the other?
Proceed, Mr. Konchela!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we are talking about performance here. We have performance contracting in the Government. Probably, some public officers are failing very badly. However, that is a side issue. The issue before the House is very serious. I want to end my contribution by asking hon. Members to support the Motion. It is not an issue of one community against another. It is an issue that will affect our children. We will be judged harshly by our children in future. Those who are of the view that we delay protection of the Mau Forest Complex know that we will be judged by our societies and by the international community. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, wars are always started because of water. There will come a time when people will say; ânoâ, and take arms to protect themselves. So, let us not reach there because we will be blamed as a House, a people and leaders at this time. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me the opportunity to contribute to this Motion. I wish, on the outset, to support the contents of the Report on Conservation of Mau Forest Complex. Much has been said regarding why the Mau Forest Complex needs to be conserved. Conserving the Mau Forest is not only a livelihood issue, but it is also a food security issue. It is, in fact, an international boundary security issue, given that the destruction of resources of the Mau Forest Complex are affecting the entire Nile River Basin. Having said that, I wish to, again, say that I do support the removal of settlers from the Mau Forest. However, debate on the Mau Forest has been made an emotional
It is even bigger than this Parliament!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, Mr. Munya is telling me it is even bigger than Parliament.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I wish to support the report on the Mau Complex. We need an expansion of this matter.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me an opportunity to support this Motion and the report.
I want to plead with my colleagues that the issue of the Mau Complex is not about tribes---
Order, Mr. Wetangula. Hon. Members, this is a Sessional Paper. Under the circumstances, the rules are very clear; we cannot limit. I will have to leave it to your own conscience to limit the time. If you can give your contributions in five minutes time to allow more Members to contribute, then fair enough. You will have to basically regulate yourselves.
Proceed, Mr. Wetangula.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I never raised any issue on time.
This matter is very important. We should not trivialise it. We should not bring it to the level of communities. We should not bring it to the level of political inclinations. Contrary to what my good friend Ms. Abdalla has said, this is a matter with international proportions and dimensions. Tanzania is affected. We share Lake Victoria with Uganda
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I think the Minister is misinforming the House. I said that it should not be the international communitiesâ resources deciding whether we should conserve the Mau Forest Complex or not. That is what I have a problem with.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the other day we had the Prime Minister of Tanzania visiting Kenya and one of the highlights of his speeches was to cry about the Mau Forest and its effects on the Serengeti National Park. Last week, I met the President of Tanzania in Libya and the first thing he asked me was, what we are doing about the Mau which affects the Serengeti National Park. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, if you go to Lake Victoria today, in the last ten years, the lake has receded in some parts by up to 100 metres. You go to Lake Naivasha, apart from the river that comes from Kinangop, all the inflows from the Mau have dried up. Go to Lake Nakuru, it is virtually dried up. There is not a single river. The only river that used to flow in; the Molo River, has dried up. Sondu-Miriu Hydroelectric project is now operating at less than 15 per cent capacity. You look everywhere and you will see that we have mismanaged the environment.
I will come to that! Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, can you restrain Mr. Ruto from interjecting in my contributions? When you look at what we have done to our environment since Independence, at Independence we had 12 per cent forest cover in this country; today, we have only 1.7 per cent. It is diminishing even more. It is like we are at war with our own country. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, when you talk about what must be done with those who invaded the Mau Forest Complex, I agree that buyers for value without notice can be compensated. I agree that the poor of the poor who went to the Mau Forest Complex to get an acre or half an acre should be resettled elsewhere. Even if they are not compensated by monetary terms, they should be found alternative settlement. However, we also have people who have abused their offices. We have people who have grabbed public land. We have people who have grabbed forests. I do think these are a category of people who should fall within the category of taking public resources and we should not reward them for wrong doing. Persons in positions of responsibility, persons who have used their offices for self gain, persons who have gone and excised the forest and awarded themselves hundreds of acres of land, persons who have made money out of the illegal occupation of the Mau Forest Complex do not deserve any compensation whatsoever. I think this Parliament should make it very clear that we are not going to rubber-stamp and reward wrong doing. There is the untold story of the damage done; not just for Mau Forest Complex, but many other parts of the country. When you look at the destruction of the Mau Forest Complex, the wonder that is the Maasai Mara Game Park is gone; the tea industry that has been the hallmark of our economy is under threat the generation of power at the
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Much as I have tried to restrain myself so as to respect the hon. Minister for Foreign Affairs, is it in order for him to presume that he is the Moses in the Bible, and start preaching and pontificating on the Floor of the House, and imputing that other leaders have been reckless, when it is the Government that he represents that allows logging and perpetrates the destruction of the
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, there is a saying that if you want to know the owner of the dog, you beat it. Then you will very quickly know who the owner of that dog is.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the passion with which I am speaking is the passion with which any Member here can speak about our environment. We should speak with equal passion. I have made my points. I hope my colleague Ruto will see the sense.
I now leave the Floor for others and beg to support.
Order, hon. Wetangula! Hon. Ruto is not the subject of debate.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, while I rise to support the Motion, I would like to urge the country to proceed with caution.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the largest purchase that any individual would make is to purchase his piece of land and house. The value of stock of all the land in the country is threatened if we will be discriminative. If we say some people will be compensated and others will not be compensated, will be setting a very bad precedent. Some people are arrogating themselves to the powers determine who will be compensated and those who will not be compensated. There is no provision for such powers in the Constitution. Whether a piece of land is owned by a company or an individual, all have right to be compensated. Those companies are represented by shareholders. If we rubbish title deeds, the value of all land in Kenya will go down and the country will be impoverished as a result of that action.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is the hon. Member in order really to mislead this House? Section 70 of the Constitution guarantees a citizen of Kenya, protection to his life, liberty, security, freedom of conscience and property. If we are to sit here to debate compensation, whose compensation should we be debating? Is the Member in order to suggest compensation? Section 70 says----
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have the Floor.
Order, hon. Assistant Minister. What is out of order?
Is the hon. Member in order to mislead the House that the debate before us is about compensation?
Order, hon. Assistant Minister. You are out of order!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the report touches on compensation. I support that the Mau Forest should be conserved. What I am urging is that we proceed with a lot of caution. We do not have to be reckless and do foolish things which we will regret later. Two mistakes or wrongs do not make a right. In the past, one Minister of this Government said, a title deed is just a piece of paper. We know we have compensated people with those pieces of paper. So, print money and compensate them. But for heavenâs sake, uphold the Constitution which you stood there and swore to defend it.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, the business of conservation is sometimes used as sojourn horse by people with ulterior motives. Somebody has a game lodge in the Maasai Mara. Since he does not want Ms. Abdalla to build another game lodge there, I declare the place a leopardâs breeding ground. This is because he does not want competition with his hotel.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to support the Report of the Mau Task Force.
I will attempt to bring this debate to another level. The debate has revolved around the political intrigues and competition for too long. Unfortunately, it is even finding its way into party politics. However, the level of debate for us should really be: What is the best we want out of the conservation of Mau, relocation of the people who live in Mau and eventually, conserving the environment for our country? Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have heard people speak about the speed at which this issue is moving. As a Member of the Pan-African Parliament, who is also privileged to chair the Parliamentarians Association that deals with issues of climate change in Africa, and that will lead parliamentarians to negotiate at Copenhagen for the African common position, we have until December to get our act together during the 15th meeting to be able to get compensation from donors. That is the bottom line. That is what we need to understand and hear. Even as we speak to donors to give us Kshs30 billion, if we go to Copenhagen without clearly saying what we will do towards conservation of our forests, we will be ignored and we will not be taken seriously. That is the first reason we should act with speed. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we know that Africa is using afforestation in this continent as the main negotiating tool. If we are not aware of that, then we should be aware. We should be aware that Africa, of which Kenya is privileged to be one of the negotiators, will take a position of afforestation as being a component of the Western world paying it for polluting the environment. This is because, as you know, the West has contributed 97 per cent of the carbon gases that have caused the climate change problem that we have.
On a point of information, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Do you want to be informed?
Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, may I thank the gracious lady and inform her that, in fact, Africa has now designated the Prime Minister of Ethiopia as our lead spokesman in Copenhagen. We will demand that 3.6 per cent of the Gross Domestic Product (GDP) of the developed countries and the pollutants be assigned to Africa to save the environment.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I believe those are the kind of issues we should be discussing in the House. The issues that we have discussed, important as they are, do not give us real solutions, because what we are looking for are real solutions. I am sure that all Members of Parliament who have been debating here are looking for solutions for their people, but they will not come by the kind of arguments we have been having, nor will they come through any other method except being prepared to go and negotiate for a position that will give us the benefit that the Minister has spoken about. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to say that we may have questions or gaps in this Report but its spirit is what is important. The Government wants to take seriously, issues that it has neglected for long. I agree with the speakers who have spoken before that this is a Government problem perpetuated, of course, by the politics of the country. The Government must take responsibility and, therefore, start a process that is fundamentally well-researched and with clear guidelines. That is why we support this Report. However, we know that we will address any gaps that we feel could be in this Report, through the Secretariat that has been set up. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to finish by saying that on the issue of humane eviction from Mau, the women parliamentarians gave this statement which I would like to repeat. We said that every time there is any method of eviction somewhere, women and children suffer the most. We have said clearly that the Secretariat must put in place a mechanism---
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I apologise to the gracious lady. However, since most opinions and ideas have been expressed about this issue, could I be in order to ask that the Mover be called upon to reply?
Order, hon. Members!
Proceed, Mrs. Shebesh!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to finish by saying, and I wish this could be taken very seriously, that the secretariat that has been set up to look into the process, must look into the issue of evictions that must not in any way be an avenue for violence that is perpetuated against women and children in the way of rape which always happens whenever such situations arise.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am urging this House that time for politics and competition is over. We are at the crucial stage where we need to make decisions that will affect our people for the good of this country. Adopting this Report is the beginning of a good direction in terms of conserving our environment.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute on this Motion. From the onset, I want to say that nobody is not for the conservation of forests. Nobody of sane mind can say that forests should not be conserved. So, I subscribe to those who are saying that the Mau Forest and all the other water towers or water catchment areas in this country must be conserved. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, however, the point that has been belabored, that by adopting this Report we will be conserving Mau Forest, is what I am saying no to. I say so because if we are rushing to adopt this Report so that we can conserve Mau tomorrow, I think we are wrong and we need to be fair. Unless you are saying that we want to adopt
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. With this serious evidence that this Report is definitely not the Task Forceâs Report, is it in order for us to be debating an Executive summary, when the Government has deliberately withheld the actual Task Force Report from the House? Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this document that purports to be the Task Force Report has been signed by the Chairman only. We have information that the actual Task Force Report was signed by all the members. Are we debating the correct document? There appears to be a possibility that Parliament is actually being taken for a ride or somebody is actually withholding information from Parliament so that we can provide a veneer of approval for an illegality that they wish to perpetuate. Yesterday, we asked that the Committee ventilates and fills in the gaps, but this Government with impunity, continues to ride roughshod even over Parliament. It is the impunity that we are saying ânoâ to. Could you rule on whether this particular document is the one that is being referred to?
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The first point is that we finished the issue of submitting this Report to the Departmental Committee yesterday and the people who suggested it were defeated and we must not go back to that anymore. Secondly, is the hon. Member in order to try and delay the system of preserving and conserving the Mau for the interest of the people who are there? Is he really right? The bottom line and I know all the hon. Members are aware, is the timing of removing and stopping the destruction of the Mau Forest and not all the dilly-dallying on the Report. That is the most important. Is he in order to say that we should delay the adoption of this Report?
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Order, hon. Members! The direction will be delivered by the Chair on Tuesday next week.