Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to give notice of the following Motion:- THAT, this House adopts the Report of the Departmental Committee on Defence and Foreign Relations on the proposed harmonized rules to handle the East African Legislative Assembly Business, laid on the Table of the House on Wednesday, 18th November, 2009.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to give notice of the following Motion:- THAT, this House adopts the report of the first Session of the Second Legislature of the Pan African Parliament held on from 26th October, to 5th November, 2009, in Midrand South African, laid on the Table of the House today, Wednesday, 18th November, 2009.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to give notice of the following Motion:- THAT, that this House adopts the Report of the Parliamentary Select Committee on the Review of the Constitution on the Nomination of Judges of the Interim Independent Constitutional Dispute Resolution Court, laid on the Table of the House on Wednesday, 18th November, 2009.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister of State for Planning, National Development and Vision 2030 the following Question by Private Notice. (a) Is the Minister aware that, in spite of his assurance to the public that all the persons who were involved in conducting the recently concluded census exercise would be paid, village elders and police officers are yet to receive their dues? (b) How much were the elders and police officers supposed to be paid per day respectively, for the exercise? (c) Could the Minister provide the list of village elders and police officers involved in the exercise indicating against each name whether or not they have been paid?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I wish to seek indulgence of the House so that I can comprehensively answer this Question tomorrow. This Question was just brought to our office this morning. It is a very detailed Question. I know that the majority of Members of Parliament have an interest in it and I would like to give a comprehensive response.
Fair enough! The Chair directs that this Question appears on the Order Paper tomorrow in the afternoon.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I wanted to request that it comes on Tuesday next week; I have an engagement in Arusha tomorrow.
Do you have an engagement tomorrow?
Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Tuesday afternoon will be okay.
It is a Question by Private Notice. Normally, it is given priority. If you are comfortable with that, it is fair enough. I direct that this Question appears on the Order Paper on Tuesday next week. Next Question by hon. Benedict Gunda!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister for Foreign Affairs the following Question by Private Notice. (a) Could the Minister clarify whether or not Mr. Joseph Muchemi is still the Kenyan envoy to the United Kingdom and, if not, when will the Government appoint the substantive High Commissioner? (b) What steps is the Minister taking to end the state of confusion at the High Commission?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) Ambassador Muchemi is no longer Kenyaâs High Commissioner in London. Kenyaâs High Commissioner in London is Ephraim Ngari, who has already presented his papers of credence and has taken up his work from 9th November, 2009. (b) Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, in view of my answer to âaâ above, âbâ does not arise.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, from what the Minister has said, it would appear that the issue has been settled. However, the country has wondered why, after the tour of duty of Mr. Muchemi ended, he still reluctantly continued to handle the affairs of the Mission in London. Could the Minister elaborate?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is not true that Mr. Muchemi has handled any duties pertaining to the Kenya High Commission in London since his tour of duty ended. He was officially recalled on 19th May, 2009.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, that state of confusion is created by inaction on the part of the Government. The United Kingdom is not the only mission that we have a problem. Can the Minister confirm to this House and to the country the number of missions that do not have a substantive head of mission? When they do not have substantive heads of missions, the Government continues to pay ambassadorsâ official residence in anticipation of Government appointing an envoy. That way, we continue to incur so much loss on behalf of the Government. How many missions, to the knowledge of the Minister, are waiting to receive a representative of the country?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, Japan is vacant because the immediate former ambassador, Denis Awori, picked up an international job and resigned. A new ambassador has been nominated and the process of his posting is nearly complete. In Kigali, Rwanda, the ambassador ended his tour and a new proposal for appointment has been made and is underway. In London, there is a new High Commissioner, who has already taken up his duties in place of High Commissioner Muchemi whose tour ended.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I thought that the Minister would be faithful to the question. I have asked him how many missions are vacant. Is he, therefore, suggesting that Geneva has been filled and that Libya has a
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, Geneva has never been vacant. The ambassador who was there as Head of Mission, Prof. Maria Nzomo, ended her tour. We had two other Ambassadors, Ambassador Richard Owade and Ambassador Tom Mboya who are both properly accredited. The mission is not vacant. In terms of Libya, the new High Commissioner to London was transferred and appointed to go there last month. So, the process of posting a new Ambassador to Libya is ongoing. My good friend, Mr. Affey, has been an Ambassador and he knows that you cannot appoint an Ambassador and send him or her to the station in a day or two. There is a process to follow. The country to which you are sending the Ambassador must accept the Ambassador as being a person who is fit to represent a country in that country. Those are the only stations and, as you can see from my answer, there is no inaction on the part the Ministry and the Government.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, while I appreciate the answer given by the Minister, we are duty-bound to tell this august House the truth. Mr. Joseph Muchemi is still, as of now, as we speak, living at the Ambassadorâs residence in London. He was recalled theoretically but refused to move. The issue of medical grounds was just a cover up. Could the Minister be honest to this House and take us through what happened between the time when the tenure of Joseph Muchemi as High Commissioner in London expired and last week when Mr. Ngare was transferred from Libya. The second issue is that I am aware that Ambassador Awori was forced to resign, because he refused to sanction an illegality that is still going on in our mission in Japan.
That is something that I will be sharing with Parliament very soon. I had an opportunity to go to Japan. I know what happened. Mr. Awori refused to sanction something that is going on. Since we will be making a report very soon, I want to plead with the Minister for Foreign Affairs, who is preparing to be a candidate in 2012 to own up and tell this august House the truth; what he has said is not the truth at all.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, my candidature in 2012 has nothing to do with the mission in Japan. Be that as it may, Ambassador Denis Awori served this country diligently, honestly, and faithfully for six years. Ordinarily, ambassadors serve for four years, at the very most. He picked up a job as the President of Toyota Africa in the expanded Toyota franchise in Africa, moving from the automobile industry to food production and other economic activities. He came to my office and explained to me that he had got a job that he could not resist and that he was regrettably tendering his resignation to go for greener pastures, which he did. Another ambassador has been proposed. The name has been forwarded to Japan and has been approved by the Japanese Government. We are in the process of posting that ambassador. I am not privy, to or aware of, any scandal in the Kenyan Mission in Japan. As and when the information comes my way, I will deal with it
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, in the good old days, these announcements used to be made public. Part of the reason why this Question is coming to the House is because of the secret nature in which the appointments are made. Could the Minister confirm that in future they will revert to the previous policy, where public announcements are made as soon as these appointments are made or gazetted, so that we do not rely on rumours or have to ask questions on matters of policy? Mr. Ngare is a very fine officer. I met him in Libya. He played a big role in assisting me to get out of that country when I faced a security problem. He is somebody I admire, who is very competent. However, we require a system where public announcements are made publicly either by way of Kenya Gazette Notice or a statement from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, announcing where replacements have been made and from what dates.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, indeed, that is what we do. Mr. Ngareâs posting to London was made public and was carried by both electronic and print media in this country. As to the other stations that I have mentioned, you could see that I was careful enough not to mention names of the nominees to go to these stations because the formal appointment will be made public in the normal manner that my learned senior is proposing.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to ask the Minister whether he is truly truthful when he says that Mr. Dennis Awori sought and obtained another job. Is he aware that before Mr. Dennis Awori left, he was with Toyota Kenya as a Chief Executive Officer (CEO) and was forced to leave but has returned to Toyota Kenya for a different job? He did not need to be recruited for it. He returned to it. That is the first question. I do not know whether I can add another one?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, in this matter the Minister may or may not comment. Is he aware that the High Commissionerâs residence in London is in a terrible shape, something equivalent to some of the slum houses in Brickstone? That House is on one of the lanes called Millionaires Road. What is the Minister intending to do about that house in terms of renovation? It is in a terrible situation and I have personally seen it.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the hon. Member is asking me to be truly truthful. Mr. Dennis Awori, I do believe I know him a little more than the hon. Member asking the question. He was, yes---
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I have known Mr. Dennis Awori since 1966.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not think that we are competing as to who knew Dennis Awori first. I said that I think I know him a little better than the hon. Member.
Yes, Mr. Dennis Awori was the Managing Director of Toyota Kenya prior to his appointment to Japan. But now he is not the MD of Toyota Kenya, but he is the President of Toyota Africa, resident in Kenya. That is not the same as being the MD of Toyota Kenya. I can assure that Mr. Dennis Awori left service with, first, an exemplary record, secondly, at his own volition, and thirdly, he informed me before he left.
It is not true that the residence of the High Commissioner in London is in deplorable condition. It is not. I also do know that as a ministry, with allocation of funds and approval from this august House, we have a programme of keeping our mission properties well maintained and well renovated where there is need. When there is need, we will do that in London as well.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, before I ask a question, please, allow me to congratulate the Minister because he has just won his petition. It might as well be a happy hour for him.
Mr. Minister, now that you are happy, could you clear the minds of Kenyans because they are given to believe that Ministers in this Grand Coalition Cabinet exchange appointments with each other, to the extent that in respect of your Ministry, relatives of your colleagues are the ones who have been benefiting from appointments?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, that is not true. I have never sought to exchange an appointment with any Minister colleague; more importantly, in terms of my Ministry, any ambassador or high commissioner appointed, I am not the appointing authority. So, it would be fallacious for me to enter any pact with anybody to appoint where I cannot appoint. There is only one appointing authority for ambassadors and high commissioners, and that is the President and not the Minister.
Last one, Mr. Gunda!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Minister has said that the residence of the Kenyan High Commissioner in London is not in a deplorable condition. Is that why Ambassador Muchemi has refused to vacate it?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, if my very good friend, the Chairman of the Coast Parliamentary Group or the Governor of Coast Province, listened to me very well--- He is my very good friend and I have visited his constituency several times. I said that after his recall he asked for three months. We got a medical report that he needed medical attention. He has no capacity to refuse to leave the residence, station or disobey a legitimate order for him to leave his job. So, the question of refusal does not arise.
Next Question, Mr. Olago!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance the following Question by Private Notice. (a) Why is it that in spite of the operationalization of the Public Procurement and Disposal Act nearly two and a half years ago, the post of Director-General of the Public Procurement and Oversight Authority remains vacant? (b) How has the failure to appoint a substantive Director-General impacted on the Authorityâs national and international operation? (c) When will the appointment be made?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) Following the enactment of the Public Procurement and Disposal Act, 2005 the Public Procurement Oversight Authority---
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I would like to remind you of the ruling that you gave this morning.
Thank you! Assistant Minister, Office of the Deputy Prime Minister and Ministry of Finance, in conformity to the new Standing Orders, Ministry of Finance had a Question this morning; it is an offence for the Minister not to answer and the Questioner not to ask the Question. You did not answer a Question this morning and you did not communicate with the Chair to give a valid and an acceptable reason why you were not present in the House. Under the circumstances, we cannot transact any business in this House until such a time that you do that. So, we move to the next Question. This Question is going to appear on the Order Paper after the ruling given this morning is vacated.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Under these circumstances, may I humbly ask the Chair to suspend that ruling until the Question is answered and then the suspense can continue.
Order! You are out of order, Mr. Olago!
Next Question by Mr. Ochieng!
asked the Attorney-General:- (a) whether he could confirm that investigations into the Anglo- Leasing related contracts by the Serious Fraud Office (SFO) in the United Kingdom (UK) have been terminated due to lack of co-operation by the Kenya Government; and,
I understand that the Attorney-General did communicate with the Chair that he would not be around today to answer this Question. As you know, the Attorney-General does not have an assistant to answer on his behalf when he is not around. So, the Question is going to appear on the Order Paper at the time when he will be in a position to answer. So, it is deferred to such time.
Next Question is by Mr. Ethuro and I understand that he is out of the country on parliamentary business related to the Bunge FC. So, the Question will be deferred to a time when the Questioner will be around.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it appears that this Question is to the Ministry of Finance.
Yes, the Ministry of Finance is still under sanctions. It can only be answered when the direction by the Chair is vacated.
Next Question, Mr. Mbai!
asked the Minister for Energy:- (a) whether he could provide a list of projects initiated by KenGen in Masinga Constituency since its inception; (b) why KenGen has not been able to supply clean drinking water to Kivaa Market, which lies only four kilometres from Kamburu Hydro Dam; and,
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
(a) KenGen came into existence in 1977 and has since undertaken the following projects:-
(i) Kikumi Primary School, one classroom at the cost of Kshs150,000;
(ii) Mutuma Water Project, Kshs500,000;
(iii) Kivaa Secondary School, a dormitory, Kshs40,000;
(iv) Two sunk dams at Kunguu and Kithoni. (b) KenGen is ready to partner with the Ministry of Water and Irrigation to supply water to Kivaa Market. However, the recurrent cost of water treatment and other statutory costs will be met by the Ministry of Water and Irrigation and the local community. (c) KenGen has employed a total of 23 skilled people from Masinga Constituency since inception. In addition, KenGen employs casual workers from time to time to undertake specific tasks such as bush clearing and minor repairs. Between 80 and 90 per cent of such employees come from Masinga Constituency.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the table of the project as shown by the Assistant Minister is not the position on the ground. We have no projects sponsored by KenGen in Kikumi Primary School as he says. However, the issue of water in Kivaa Market and surrounding areas is very demanding. Could he direct KenGen to undertake corporate social responsibilities by providing them with water?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, with regard to Kikumi Primary School, we will discuss with the hon. Member and see which primary school KenGen can build classrooms. As for the water project, I said that we will partner with the local community and the Ministry of Water and Irrigation to see if she will supply water there. We can still discuss this matter.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. We provided Kshs2.5 million through the CDF, so that we can partner with KenGen, but they refused to take that money. What will I do? Could the Assistant Minister advise this Parliament?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, that is news to me. In fact, I congratulate the hon. Member for availing that money. We will discuss between us, KenGen and him to see how we can proceed on that project.
Hon. Mbai, are you satisfied?
Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Next Question, Mr. Outa!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, hon. Outa is in Arusha on official parliamentary assignment. He asked the Chair to defer this Question to next week.
Yes, indeed. I so direct that this Question appears on the Order Paper when hon. Outa is in the country.
Is hon. Waibara also out of the country on official parliamentary business? Indeed, I am made to understand that he has been around. The Question is dropped.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this morning hon. Affey raised a matter requiring me to give a Ministerial State on the registration of Kenya nationals living in North Eastern Province; registration for purposes of the issuance of national identity cards.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have enquired and there was a statement that was given by the Provincial Commissioner of North Eastern Province to the effect that registration of persons in North Eastern Province will be frozen until such time that certain security concerns are addressed. The security concerns are the following: There is a huge influx of foreigners from Somalia or should I call it the former Somalia. In fact, we are getting 300 to 500 people entering our territory every day from Somalia. This has gone on for the last three or so years. When we register them as refugees, some of them leave the camp and come into the cities. Sometimes, they leave the city and proceed to the southern part of the continent through our neighbouring countries. So, Kenya has had a problem and we have been accused internationally of being a corridor or a conduit for the Somali nationals who pass through our territory. But some of them actually apply for and obtain our national identity cards unlawfully and use them to even obtain our passports also unlawfully and then proceed to foreign countries purporting to be Kenyans when they are not. So, this has been a problem which we have been seeking to address.
Recently, the Provincial Commissioner realised that one of our committees that does verification of who is a Kenyan, unlawfully and knowingly allowed foreigners to be registered purporting to be Kenyans. He has since caused the arrest of an Assistant Chief and some members of that committee. But I think the announcement that citizens of Kenya living in North Eastern Province should not be registered was a statement that was not proper within the law. The law requires that every Kenyan must be registered . Actually, it is an offence not to register people. You must be registered at the age of 18. Of course, if you do not register at the age of 18, you must explain why you did not register at the age of 18. So we cannot be the ones charged with the responsibility of making sure that people register on time and be the same people to stop registering
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Minister has tried to explain a matter that is so grave. Over the last few months, registration of Kenyans in North Eastern Province has been suspended ostensibly because the Government has no capacity to know who is a Kenyan and who is a Somali. I am not talking about citizens from another country. I am talking about those Kenyans, some of who have just finished school; who have no possibility to acquire a national identity card; who are supposed to participate in the registration exercise to be organised by the Interim Independent Electoral Commission (IIEC) in order to prepare the country for a referendum in March.
I want the Minister to tell us the steps his Ministry will take in order to clear the backlog of many Kenyans who have not been registered and who are now frustrated. Is the Ministerâs Statement an admission of failure by the Government to identify who is a citizen and who is not?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, even if it was a complex problem as it is, it would be a terrible thing for the Government to say that we are not going to register Kenyans because we cannot identify them. It would be a terrible admission of failure. I think I am giving this Statement in good faith; that we will continue with the work that we must do. We will do it carefully by registering Kenyans and not Somalis. If we find that there is anybody who purports to be a Kenyan and is not one, we will deal with him according to the law.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, under the Constitution of Kenya, criminal responsibility is individual and the Minister of State for Immigration and Registration of Persons is one of the senior counsel. Before he became a Minister, he was one of the human rights activists and a long serving Back-bencher of the National Assembly of Kenya. He has admitted that the announcement that was made by the Provincial Administration was not made with his concurrence. We know the issuance of identity cards (IDs) is the sole responsibility of the Ministry of State for Immigration and Registration of persons. We know the history of northern Kenya. We have suffered because of three contentious Acts; the emergency laws and Indemnity Act which we are trying to repeal. Now that we have a reformist Minister as the head of that Ministry, is it fair because of the failures of individuals who are required by law to manage the issuance of IDs, to deny legitimate Kenyans a chance to get them? Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, secondly, northern Kenya or North Eastern Province for that matter is not the only region that shares borders with other nations. If you go to the
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Member of Parliament has put it very well and I do not think I have anything useful to add. However, strictly speaking, criminal responsibility is individual as we have said. It would be seen as if it is discriminatory to suggest that because some Luo from Uganda registered in Kisumu, the whole of Nyanza people would not now register. It will be something extraordinary. So, I think that a mistake was made and I want to accept that. I think that we will continue with the registration exercise. As I have said earlier, there is that big problem that we have.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the truth is that our brothers who are coming from Somalia and who seek and get these identity cards are not ordinary people. They are businessmen. They want to use Kenyan identity cards and passports to travel abroad because Kenya still seems to have a good name abroad. So, they have the capacity to even influence our registration officials in a very negative way. That is our problem. That should not, therefore, mean that with all those problems, we should not continue to register. So, I want to admit that a mistake has been made but rectification will be made.
Next is the Prime Ministerâs Time. I will call upon him to make his statements this afternoon.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am going to begin with Question No.2 and then I will deal with Question No.1 thereafter.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, a Question had been raised by the hon. Member for Mutito, hon. Kiema Kilonzo, seeking clarification on the criteria used in determining the amount of assistance in the proposed subsidy programme. I would like to take this opportunity to brief Parliament on the interim report of the task force on a comprehensive targeted food subsidy scheme in Kenya, which I received last week. This report will be presented to the Cabinet shortly for approval and adoption. My statement therefore is preliminary. I will address this House on the matter more comprehensively once this matter has been discussed and approved by the Cabinet.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I established a task force in February this year with a mandate to recommend to the Government a comprehensive well targeted subsidy scheme that is efficient, accountable and minimises opportunity for abuse. The task force draws membership from relevant Government ministries, selected development partners and Non-Government Organizations (NGOs) representatives, including the World Bank, Oxfam, Department for International Development (DFID) and World Food Programme (WFP). The task force has undertaken a detailed review of existing food subsidy programmes in the country and drawn lessons from the experiences of these programmes
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to thank the Prime Minister because for the first time, we are seeing an attempt to address a very serious problem of urban poverty. But this is not the first time that the Government has taken on social programmes. It is not the first time that the Government has had these good intentions. The question that Kenyans want to know is that, in the past, we have had the School Feeding Programme and the Nyayo Milk Programme, the Nyayo Wards and so many others which failed also. How sustainable is this programme and where is the Prime Minister intending to raise this money from and how much is it?
Are we going to just take Kenyans for a one year thing and then after that, they go back? How much is it going to cost us and how sustainable is it? If it is donor-funded, how long have they committed themselves, because we do not want a programme that will play around with the minds of Kenyans? Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. As much as we want to support the Governmentâs initiative to reduce poverty in this country and to ensure that people have food, I would like to seek one clarification from the Prime Minister. Rural- urban migration is one of the things that are discouraged in most countries. This programme, perhaps, is going to be one of the ways to encourage people to migrate from rural to urban areas. In this process, infrastructure and most facilities are going to be hampered in terms of facilitating proper services to the people of this nation. So, could the Prime Minister tell us the measures that are going to be put in place to ensure that the issue of people migrating, because of this programme from the rural to the urban areas is going to be addressed? Again, what is the projection of the population in another three years, by 2012 in urban areas?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I wish to commend the Prime Minister also for, firstly, setting up this task force that gave rise to what he says is a preliminary report that is subject to Cabinet approval. Indeed, my question arises directly out of that. If it is subject to Cabinet approval, what happens should the Cabinet refuse to approve it as it did the Special Tribunal Bill when his colleague, the Minister, also did a similar thing? Would this project fail? What would be the consequences of such a failure?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I always sympathize with the poor Kenyans who cannot feed themselves. But, at the same time, I am against programmes that will make these poor so dependent on handouts and subsidies which will make them not to move out of this cycle of poverty. I would want to know from the Rt. Hon. Prime Minister what programmes or policies the Government has to go hand-in-hand with this feeding programme in order to get these poor Kenyans out of this dependency situation. Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, hon. Mungatana asked about the sustainability of this programme. He is skeptic by drawing examples from the past. I want to say that we are not responsible for the past which were the School Feeding Programme, the Nyayo Milk for Schools Programme, the Nyayo Wards, the Nyayo Pioneer Car and all those other ones. Those are the things that we have since taken to the museum. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this programme is intended to be sustainable and that is why we are going about it systematically. We are beginning, first, with the experimental case to test if it is going to work and also to determine the levels of funding that will be adequate to deal with the vulnerable people. Ultimately, we want to introduce a proper social protection programme for our people. We are doing this programme with donors who have, themselves, offered to actually travel with us along this route. The World Bank has got a fund for the poor, so does the DFID and the World Food Programme. So, this programme is already operating at some of the rural areas. It is a combination of both cash and food distribution. For example, we are already operating in some ASAL areas of our country. So, I want to assure the hon. Member that this programme will be sustainable. It will be sustainable because the Government will be setting aside a certain amount of money for it from the Exchequer on an annual basis.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, Mr. Kutuny was worried about rural-urban migration and how to stem the tide. Last week, I said here that rural-urban migration is a universal phenomenon that cannot be stemmed. The mistake that was made in the early part of our Independence was to assume that by telling people, âRudini mashambaniâ, they would go back. No proper planning was made to receive the influx of the population from the rural to urban areas which continued. It is for that reason that we have the problem today. Had measures been taken to deal with it in advance, we would not be having slums in all our major urban areas. Low cost houses would have been constructed just like the colonialists had started to do in our cities. Roads would have been constructed and water and sewerage systems would have been set up.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, through the Vision 2030, we have made provisions for rural-urban migration. There is nothing negative about it. In fact, there are more opportunities available to the population in urban areas. Secondly, people will free the land which is now not being economically utilized. In some of our high potential rural areas, the population has grown such that there is too much pressure on land. We now have what we call rural slums where the land is not being utilized properly. We need to do planning and consolidation so that those very high potential lands can be more economically and productively used.
Mr. Imanyara asked what would happen if the Cabinet rejects this. Of course, that is a possibility. The reason I actually made this Statement is that a Question was asked by Mr. K. Kilonzo. That is why I said that I will address the House comprehensively on this matter, once this programme is approved by the Cabinet. If the Cabinet rejects it, of course, that is period and we will not proceed with it. We cannot bring it to Parliament, unless it has been approved by the Cabinet.
Mr. Ngugi wanted to know how we will move out of this dependency on handouts. There is no other way of dealing with poverty other than creating wealth. That is the only way we can deal with poverty. This economy must expand as fast as possible
We have another issue to be addressed by the Right Honorable Prime Minister. Please, go ahead.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the hon. Member for Ikolomani asked for a Statement regarding the talks that were held on 6th November, 2009 in Nairobi between the Government of Kenya officials and Mr. Luis Moreno- Ocampo, the prosecutor of the International Criminal Court. In particular, he wanted to know the following:- (i) What did the two principals tell Mr. Ocampo and what did he tell them? (ii) What were the concrete resolutions that were reached at these talks? (iii)When indicted, will high ranking Government officials immediately forfeit their positions of influence, power and authority? Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, before I proceed to address myself to the specific issues raised by the hon. Member for Ikolomani, I would first like to cover the twin issues of impunity and the need to hold perpetrators of the post-election violence accountable. The Government is committed to ending impunity in its various forms. Those hon. Members who attended the launch of the new Constitution at the KICC must have seen the video that was shown there on the brutality that took place in our country last year. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the question whether impunity prevails or offenders are held accountable attracts much divided opinions within and outside this august House. There is unanimity that peace and reconciliation are essential to national cohesion. Truth telling and accountability are key ingredients in peace and reconciliation efforts.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I raised four questions but the Prime Minister has responded to three. So, there is one question remaining.
Mr. Prime Minister, can you give us your response on the fourth question, which is whether the Government is willing and ready to hand over the suspects when Mr. Moreno-Ocampo asks for them?
Secondly, having told Mr. Ocampo that you are going to co-operate, naturally, your co-operation does not necessarily start at the time when Mr. Ocampo will have completed his investigations. Could you tell the Republic whether, indeed, your co- operation includes starting now, whereby you would ask Mr. Ocampo to tell you the names contained in the Waki List? If he told you, could you tell Kenyans the people whose names are in the envelope?
Mr. Isaac Ruto!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like the Prime Minister to clarify whether it is normal practice for the Prosecutor of the ICC to have meetings with possible suspects.
The Prime Minister may also wish to tell us whether the same prosecutor has had a meeting with President Al Bashir of Sudan. Did he, during the discussion, disclose whether he intends to investigate everybody, including them?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Prime Minister has indicated that with the coming of Mr. Ocampo, the Public Officer Ethics Act will be operationalised. We already have some Members of Parliament serving in the Cabinet, who already have cases in court. What reasons do we have to believe that this will be done?
Secondly, do we have to wait for Mr. Ocampo to act for these people to leave the Cabinet?
Mr. Kioni, could you repeat your questions?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Prime Minister indicated that, with the intervention of Mr. Ocampo in this matter, those who will fall within his list will be required to vacate office. We already have heads of parastatals, and Members of Parliament serving in the Cabinet, who have cases pending in court. Are we going to wait for Mr. Ocampo to act for these people to move out of the Cabinet? Why have we not been able to operationalise the provisions of the Public Officer Ethics Act?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Prime Minister referred to a video clip that was shown yesterday by the Committee of Experts on Constitutional Review. I want to know whether the Government requires Mr. Ocampo or a special tribunal to try the perpetrators of such crime, or whether the Government can use the laws that we currently have.
Hon. Members, I will take one more clarification from Mr. Mungatana and then the Right Honourable Prime Minister can respond.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I thank the Prime Minister for his Statement.
There is a genuine fear amongst Kenyans that, by refusing to formally refer this matter to the ICC, the Government is, in fact, protecting certain Members of the Cabinet, who might be in the list of those who are supposed to face the ICC. Could he tell Parliament openly what informed the decision by the Government not to refer this matter to the ICC?
Secondly, the Prime Minister has talked about reconciliation as a strategy that the Government is using, which we support, but could he tell us what has happened to the Truth, Justice and Reconciliation Commission (TJRC) that is headed by Amb. Kiplagat? The man disappeared from the scene immediately he and his Commissioners were sworn- in. We have never heard of them again. What is happening? Are public funds being spent without any tangible results being realised? What cohesion has the TJRC brought to this country, if that is a strategy of Government?
Right hon. Prime Minister, would you be willing to take one more question or you want to dispose of these ones first?
That is fine, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Prime Minister acknowledges that the International Criminal Court (ICC) is part of our Kenyan law. Given so, what steps has he taken to ensure that witnesses who will be required to give evidence both at the ICC and before the other mechanisms he is talking about are protected? Can we get an assurance that none of these witnesses has been subjected to disappearance and that they are all safe and well?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, Dr. Khalwale asked a question which was partly asked by Mr. Mungatana; the issue of referral. Dr. Khalwale said that it is a fourth question which I did not answer. I did answer it. The question was raised whether as a Government, we agree under Article 14 of the Rome Statute, to do direct referral to the ICC. We said no, we will not. The reasons for this are that, for the Government to agree to refer its citizens to another jurisdiction will be abdication of its responsibilities. That will, in fact, mean that you are ceding your sovereignty to another authority. That is the reason why we said, âNo, we will notâ. The Cabinet instead decided that it would fast-track the reform in the police and Judiciary to be able to carry out these trials locally. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, hon. Members remember that the Government wanted to do the trials locally as recommended in the Waki Report. That is why a Bill was drafted, approved by the Cabinet and brought before this House. Unfortunately, this Bill was rejected by this House. The Government, was therefore, not able to proceed. The reason Waki and his team recommended setting up of a special tribunal was, according to the Report, that Kenyans had no confidence in the local Judiciary. That is the reason there was need to have a special tribunal that would be independent of the current Judiciary. That required a constitutional amendment. That is why we came with a Constitution amendment Bill which was shot down by this House. An attempt to try to bring the Bill back to the House was shot down before it even reached here. Hon. Members kept on saying that it would be a waste of time. âBring it
What is your point of Order Dr. Khalwale?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, if the Prime Minister is not misleading the House by saying that his Government is fighting impunity, why did the same Government go against the resolution of this House? We adopted the Waki recommendation in toto. The recommendations were failure to set up a local process would immediately render the whole matter being referred to the Hague. He has told us that they have refused to refer the matter to the ICC. Why is he misleading the House?
Order! Hon. Members, with all due respect to our own rules, when it is a point of Order, you say what is not in order. It is not fair to say the Prime Minister was misleading the House without saying what in his statement was misleading, and consequently, out of order.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I invite you to find that he was misleading the House because in his opening remarks, he told us that he was committed to fighting impunity. If fighting impunity means that going against the resolutions of this House, then that was obviously misleading the House. In his second answer, he has told us that the Government has categorically told Ocampo that they will not refer the matter to the ICC.
I thought that was based on the issue of sovereignty. The hon. Prime Minister will answer it. But I thought he said it was an issue of sovereignty. Maybe, if you tackle that, we will be able to get somewhere in terms of law and the rest of it. Let us get another point of Order before you reply. What is your point of Order?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Prime Minister either did not get my Question because he did not answer it. The Question was; we already have officers in
Yes Prime Minister! Much as you said being a suspect is not being a convict. But proceed and ---
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, you rightly pointed out what I said. The Waki report said that if the Government or Parliament failed to establish a Special Tribunal by a particular date, then the matter will stand referred to the ICC. That is what the report says, it did not say that the Government must then refer it to ICC. Once the Government was unable to set up a Special Tribunal, Dr. Koffi Annan who had been given the envelope handed it over directly to the ICC. The ICC has got several ways of dealing with the matter. There are so many ways of skinning a cat; one is direct referral by the Government to the ICC. In other cases, where there are failed states, there is complete breakdown of law and order like was the case in Sierra Leone or Liberia. Kenya does not fall in this category. Kenya has got functioning judicial system. We, therefore, said we do not want to put ourselves in that category. We have a system that is working. However, there is Article 15 which allows the ICC of its own motion, to give leave to the prosecutor to begin investigations. The third one is Article 16 which refers to the Security Council. The Security Council can pass a resolution that will enable the ICC to proceed. So, we are not exercising responsibility under Article 14 because we are not afraid of Hague, but we will co-operate if ICC decides to proceed. We have not refused to move on. We are ready to co-operate, provide evidence and make those who are suspects available for investigations. With regard to what Mr. Kioni has raised, I am not aware of any Cabinet Minister who is charged in a court of law.
Hon. Members, you know that the Prime Ministerâs time is not more than 45 minutes. However, we have gone a little bit beyond that.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to seek a clarification from the Prime Minister.
Can we have it as the last one.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. We all know that when Moreno-Ocampo came here, he said he will only try two to three suspects. These suspects fall under two categories; those who bear the greatest criminal responsibility, who he said he will deal with. The others are the ones who bear the greatest political responsibility. I would like to know from the Prime Minister who will deal with those suspects who bear the greatest political responsibility.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not know where the Member gets the number of two to three suspects. At least, in the meeting we held, he never told us the numbers he has. But it does not matter whether you are holding criminal responsibility or political responsibility. They are both crimes. If there is somebody who bears political responsibility, whether it is the President or the Prime Minister, the ICC is in a position to proceed. Even the protection that they talk about, immunity is provided to the head of state; head of the Government does not come when it comes to ICC. In Sudan, the laws are still there which say President Bashir is immune to prosecution while he is in the office. But that did not stop ICC from indicting him. I want it to be taken clear
Hon. Members, we have got our own Standing Orders which we are all duty-bound to respect. We are talking about respect for the law and the Constitution and that is why we talk about impunity. But we have a responsibility to respect our own Standing Orders, which say that the Prime Ministerâs Time shall be 45 minutes. We have already gone ten minutes over and above that. But because of the sensitivity of the matter, what is your point of order, hon. Imanyara?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, my point of order arises out of what was said by hon. Kioni. He made a very serious allegation, that there are Cabinet Ministers and parastatal chiefs who are facing criminal cases which are pending in court. Could he be asked to substantiate?
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for the Rt. Hon. Prime Minister to continue misleading the House that the ICC will proceed with investigations, yet he is on record exonerating himself and the other Principal publicly, and saying that they were actually acquitted or they had acquitted themselves when they met Ocampo? The truth of the matter is that they bear the greatest responsibility of preventing chaos in this country, and they are the first prime suspects. Is it in order for him to mislead the House?
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. This subject is of such national importance that this country will never move forward until this matter is sorted out. Today, in this country, there are some victims who have not been able to go back to where they came from---
Are you on a point of order?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am seeking your indulgence that this House proceeds with this debate.
Order! Order! Hon. Kioni, you made a very sweeping statement; that Members of this House and, indeed, the Cabinet, are suspects and continue to sit in the Cabinet. As of the members of parastatals and other bodies, they are not Members of this House. Indeed, that can always be brought in a different manner, but it is not fair to impute an improper motive against your own colleagues. The Chair has a
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. That list was previously tabled in this House by hon. Karua, when she was the Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs.
Is that a list of convicts or what are they?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, they are people facing court cases.
The hon. Prime Minister has made it very categorical that anybody can face a court. As a matter of fact, if we be fair and honest to ourselves, almost everybody in any position of responsibility can face one civil matter or the other. It is not fair to drag in such issues, unless somebody is a convict. We have no authority, powers or mandate to convict Kenyans, whether they are in or outside the House. So, I think that was in bad taste.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. My statement said, âongoing court cases.â That list has been tabled in this House many times. If I need to table it again, the Standing Orders allow me to do so in 24 hours. I can re-table the same documents that are the property of this House.
Order! Order, hon. Members! We have a responsibility and duty to protect the dignity of this House. Indeed, Standing Order No.79(4) says: âNo Member shall impute improper motive to any other member except upon a specific substantive Motion of which at least three daysâ notice has been given, calling in question the conduct of that Member.â
I think it would not be fair for us to start a precedent now, in which hon. Members can even generate cases against their own colleagues; just to come and say that there is an ongoing case against such and such a Member. I think a sword cuts in many ways. It is, therefore, important that we protect the dignity of the House from such sweeping statements until or unless we conform to the provisions of the Standing Order itself.
So, hon. Kioni, under those circumstances, even with what you assume, you are still out of order, in the sense that should you wish to table a list and discuss the conduct of other Members, you will have to bring a substantive Motion. Standing Order No.79(4) says: âNo Member shall impute improper motive to any other member except upon a specific substantive Motion of which at least three daysâ notice has been given, calling in question the conduct of that Member.â
I think that is out of order. In future, if we have to discuss the conduct of our own colleagues, let us conform to the provisions of the Standing Orders!
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Order, hon. Olago! You will have to seek your Ministerial Statement tomorrow afternoon. The Chair is aware of that.
I have not given you authority to rise on a point of order! You are out of order! I have called for the next order.
On point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Is it on what I have already ruled on?
How can you know if you have not heard me?
Okay, Proceed, hon. Nyamweya!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, you have just given a ruling which I do not wish to challenge. But it arises from the Prime Ministerâs Statement that, if a Minister, Member of Parliament or anybody else is under investigation and, Mr. Moreno- Ocampo finds it so, they will be required to vacate office under the Public Officer Ethics Act. That is what he said. If that Act is still valid, what will happen to those with cases which are ongoing? We are not imputing any motive against any other Member. It is arising from the Prime Ministerâs Statement. Unless we wish---
Order! I have heard you, hon. Nyamweya. Indeed, the issue of whether a Minister should step aside or should be retained in the Cabinet or any position of responsibility is not a business for the Chair to rule on. That is a matter for the Government itself. The Chair has absolutely no business on that. The Chair has a responsibility to enforce the provisions of the Standing Orders. Hon. Kioni said that he is prepared to table the list of the Members of Parliament including those in the Cabinet. I said if it is for the parastatals or any other organization other than Parliament itself, he is at will to do that. But if you have to present the name of an hon. Member of Parliament, you have to conform to the provisions of the Standing Order, which says that you cannot do it without bringing a substantive Motion and give, at least, three days notice. That is the position of the Chair. Should you wish to change that, it is upon the House to change the Standing Orders and not the Chair.
On a point of Order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I am not challenging the Chair. I have a lot of respect for the Chair. But if you read Standing Order No. 82(2), it says: âIf a Member has sufficient reason to convince the Speaker that the Member is unable to substantiate the allegations instantly, the Speaker shall require such a Member to substantiate the allegations not later than the next sitting day, failure to which the Member shall be deemed to be disorderly within the meaning of Standing Order 97 (Disorderly Conduct), unless the Member withdraws the allegations and gives suitable apology, if the Speaker so requires.â Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we are fencing in with the hon. Kioni, if the Chair could allow him, because he is just supposed to come back within 24 hours, just to say something about it. I beg the indulgence of the Chair.
The dilemma of the Chair is that for other Members outside the House, it is perfectly in order for the hon. Member to come and bring a list and then discuss their conduct, whether in court or any other conduct. But, for a sitting Member of Parliament, everybody is the Member for Parliament; we cannot discuss that hon. Memberâs conduct in the House without the provisions of the Standing Order 79 being conformed to. So, that is the position of the Chair. Standing Order 79 (4) says:
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am the one who stood on a point of order to seek substantiation. I did not seek substantiation under the Standing Order that you are quoting. I sought substantiation under Standing Order 82, which is very clear and in unambiguous language. Hon. Kioni has undertaken to substantiate the allegation he made with respect to a Cabinet Minister! It is only fair that you allow what the Standing Orders permit you to do and give him 24 hours to give you the name of the Cabinet Minister that he is talking about. Is that not what the Standing Orders say?
Order! Order, hon. Members! The Chair is conscious of the facts and the circumstances leading to the point of order being raised. It all has something to do with who is the suspect and who is not a suspect in the Post-Election Violence (PEV) and other issues, including the conformity to the Public Officer Ethics Act, whereas Standing Order 82(1) states as follows:- âA Member shall be responsible for the accuracy of any facts which the Member alleges to be true and may be required to substantiate any such facts instantly.â In the event he is not able, he has time to do it later. We also have another provision of the Standing Orders here, which essentially prohibits discussing the conduct of sitting Members of Parliament in the House without going through an elaborate process of putting up a substantive Motion and, at the same time giving a notice. In the event that happens, the Member also has a right to defend himself or herself on the Floor of the House. That is the logic and rationale behind this. The Chair is going to give direction on this matter on Tuesday afternoon next week. Next Order!
Order, hon. Members! The Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance is still under sanction and he cannot transact business here. So we go to Order No.9. Next order!
Hon. Karua was on the Floor. I am made to understand that she is not here to complete her time. Any other hon. Member who wants to contribute can stand and have the Floor. Is there any other hon. Member who wants to contribute to the Motion? The Minister can now respond to the Motion.
Order, hon. Members! The Minister needs to be heard in silence. It is a very important Motion. Proceed, hon. Minister!
I now call upon the Mover to reply.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, foremost, I would like to thank hon. Members who have made contributions to this debate, because the issue of
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, I beg to move the following Motion:- THAT, this House adopts the Report of the Committee on implementation on the undertaking made by an Assistant Minister for Industrialization on 28th May, 2009 on the re-opening of Pan African Paper Mills.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to say that this the first report this Committee is bringing to this Committee. It is a new Committee which was re- established following the adoption of the new Standing Orders by the House on 10th December, 2008. This committee has several mandates which emanate from Standing Order No.196 which states inter-alia that:- (96)(1) âThere shall be a select Committee designated the Committee on Implementation. 96(2) The Committee shall scrutinise the resolutions of the House including adopted Committee reports, petitions and undertakings given by the Government on the Floor of the House and examine whether or not such decisions and undertakings have
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to second this Motion and also congratulate the Members of this Committee for performing their task with dispatch as expected by the Standing Orders. Indeed, this is one of the new committees that were created as a result of the reforms within our Standing Orders and it is one of the most important committees of this House in the sense that it follows up on undertakings and assurances given to this House.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, having said this, I must also commend the Minister and his Assistant Minister because when they appeared before us, they showed every sign and commitment to giving the people of Webuye, the shareholders of PAPM and the people of Kenya, the opportunity to salvage this important national asset. I dare say that if the Minister and his Assistant Minister received as much commitment from the officers within the Attorney-Generalâs office and particularly the Office of the Solicitor- General, this matter would have been resolved before today and this paper mill would have re-opened.
Having said so, the commitment of the Committee on behalf of this House is that even though we have cleared the Minister and his Assistant Minister and we have not found any fault on their part, we felt that it is essential that the Committee on Implementation pursue this matter to its logical conclusion to ensure that the PAPM is opened rather than allow the âvulturesâ out there, some of whom appear to be working in cahoots with people within the Attorney-Generalâs Office, to be precise, the Office of the
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I wish to congratulate hon. Jamleck Kamau, the Chairman of this very important Committee of this House and the entire Membership for marking a new beginning in this House. It is indeed historical that for the first time in the history of this country, we now do have a committee in place that will ensure that all statements, undertakings and promises made by the Government are actually implemented. Anyone who says anything on the Floor of this House on behalf of the Government must know that they will be committing the Government and indeed, there will be a watchdog that will be following every word.
One asked for the definition of a âgentlemanâ and one said that âa gentlemanâ is he who says what he means and means what he says. Indeed, it would be the work of this Committee to follow up and know how many gentlemen we have in this Cabinet by following up every word that is said on this Floor to know whether they actually mean it or they actually mean what they say and they say what they mean.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, this Report is very important and I wish to congratulate this Committee but also tell the Government that indeed this is not a laughing matter. As we speak, Webuye is dying. PAPM is indeed Webuye and Webuye is PAPM. It is the lifeline of this town, the economy of Western Kenya and the national economy. It is what has been turned into like a show. When you visit the agricultural show, you go there to see things. Indeed, PAPM has been visited many times by the Ministers, President and Prime Minister and indeed there have been promises that this very important industry will be revived. Word was given on this Floor. 1st June was the date that was given. It came and PAPM is still not open. Even when they promised that it will be opened later in the year, the year is ending and PAPM is still not opened.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, when you go to Webuye, the town is becoming a ghost town. Thousands lost employment. Marriages have broken. You find
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I also take this opportunity to support this Motion on the adoption of this Report. I want to agree with hon. Wamalwa that it is only gentlemen who live by their own words and who need to stand and give commitments.
Despite the fact that PAPM is based in Webuye in the western part of Kenya, it is an institution that belongs to Kenyans. It must be understood that by having a successful factory that generates profits and creates jobs for Kenya, it is not only an institution that benefits that one area but the whole country.
I am saying that because jobs will be created. If we are talking about Kenyanization, at the end of the day, you will find people from all corners of this country working there. By employing young men from different parts of this country; the girls that hon. Wamalwa has said have turned to prostitution will not be able to do that because they will find husbands to marry them. At the same time, the same institution will pay taxes which will be remitted to the Central Government. The same money will be used to develop this country because we only generate the resources for the country through taxation. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the problem here which must be dealt with squarely is that this is a private set up or a private company where the Government owns minority shares. There is money that has been set aside to be invested there. These are the problems we have been having at the Public Investments Committee when we look at all the accounts of State parastatals. The Government has set aside over Kshs500 million to revive this industry. If you look at the memorandum of articles of setting up that business that has been drawn, you may find that it does not give the Government the power of voting in the Board of Directors. So, once the money is there, it is going to be managed and the decisions will be taken by the majority shareholders, who are actually private sector players. So, it will be a repeat of the same mistakes that when there is no money, we will push the Minister and ask him to revive Pan African Paper Mills. If we push the Minister, he will react just by releasing the money, but the managers of the money are people from the private sector. So, there will be no proper management. So, if the Government has decided to invest there, it is either the Government takes the majority of the shares so that once the money is put there, the people who will be now placed in leadership positions in that factory will be answerable to the Government. But by giving the money that will be managed by people who are now waiting for money to come from the Government, they will not stop misappropriating the funds. Otherwise, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is a very great idea. I am happy with the undertaking the Minister has given. He should make sure that this issue is implemented so that they do not turn out to be people who just give commitments and we do not fulfill them. With those few remarks, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to support.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for allowing me to contribute to this very important Motion. First of all, there is something going on that is
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I rise to support the Motion that this House adopts the Report of the Committee on Implementation on the undertaking made by the Assistant Minister for Industrialization on 28th May, 2009, on the re-opening of Pan African Paper Mills.
May I now call upon the Minister to respond on behalf of the Government.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to respond to this important Motion dealing with the implementation of the revival of Pan African Paper Mills. I would like to commend the efforts of this Committee in following up this very important matter. They have contributed in keeping the Government on its toes â I would not want to use the word âpressureâ â to ensure that this factory is revived. On 30th January, 2009 when the management and owners of the Pan African Paper Mills left abruptly, the Government realized the problem it had been put in. We knew that the company was ailing. We worked out a revival programme, but before we
Hon. Members, it is now time for the Mover to respond.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, when we came into being, as a Committee, I personally promised Kenyans that this Committee will be impartial. We strive to be as such. We do not know parties. We know commitments made by Government. My good friend, Mr. Wamalwa, raised the issue of following up with Ministers, on their Statements, to establish whether they mean what they say and say what they mean. We will, definitely, continue doing so but we would want to believe that Ministers in this Government will at all times say what they mean and do what they promise to do. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, there are quite a number of issues that have come up from the discussions. I would like to thank my colleagues who have supported this Motion. Of importance is the fact that the factory needs to be re-opened at the earliest opportunity.
Hon. Members, Order No.11 has been deferred to a later date.
Hon. Members, there being no other business, the House, therefore, stands adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday 19th November, 2009 at 2.30 pm.
The House rose at 5.42 p.m.