Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister for Energy the following Question by Private Notice. (a) Under what circumstances did the Kenya Power and Lighting Company (KPLC) make a pre-tax profit of Kshs.2.8 billion for a six month-period ending December, 2009, and yet power consumers across the country are complaining of being overcharged? (b) When will KPLC lower its charges to the consumers?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. The correct position is that the KPLC made a profit before tax of Kshs2.863 billion from July to December, 2009. Over the same referenced period, the profit of the Company after tax was Kshs1.873 billion. Hon. Members may wish to note that there had been gross under investment in the transmission and distribution capacity in the country from as early as 1990s to June, 2003. This contributed to poor quality of electricity supply in the country. Despite substantial investments over the last six years made by the Company, with the support of the Government, the quality of power is still below the expected standard. This has been due to lack of adequate funds to upgrade obsolete equipment and hardware in the network including system expansion. The current rate of electricity connectivity is 20 per cent which means that 80 per cent of Kenyans are in darkness. This is not consistent with the aspirations of all of us in this House. In order to reinforce the network for improved delivery of quality of power, and concurrently expand the electricity infrastructure to meet the ever rising demand, the KPLC must undertake heavy investments. These investments will require the KPLC to generate substantial funds from its operations in order to be in a position to borrow the balance. Lending institutions, as we are all aware, require any borrower to contribute a portion of the required capital funds from their operations and this is usually set at 30 per cent of the investment cost. However, the KPLC, with the support of the Government, has been able to borrow up to 75 per cent of capital expenditures, thus reducing pressure
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is only yesterday that the Minister for Energy while addressing the same issue said as follows: âThe Government does not have control over the KPLC which is a private company.â He advised consumers to continue praying and those who can fast to do so because if this country does not discover oil then the charges for electricity will continue being high. The Minister said that less than 12 hours ago and yet the Assistant Minister has come with a different answer. We are aware of who the owners of the KPLC are. They are 20 entities and I do not want to mention them. The Kenya Power and Lighting Company (KPLC) gives very important service to this country. Without electricity, we cannot say that we have a growing economy. If the
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the answer I am giving is the Ministryâs position. Therefore, I do not know what my colleague is saying. I am giving an answer that reflects the position of the Ministry of Energy. I have put it very clear that we started by investing in geothermal generation---
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The substantive Minister has been quoted verbatim, and what has been quoted is in direct contradiction to what is now being claimed to be the official Ministryâs position. Is it in order for Keter, who is an assistant to the substantive Minister, to contradict him?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the answer that I have read out is signed by hon. Kiraitu Murungi, the Minister for Energy. So, there is no contradiction whatsoever.
Order! Order, hon. Members! As far as the House is concerned, the official and operational position would be as communicated to the House.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is obvious that most of the power supplied by KPLC is from a hydro-electric supply with a considerable portion coming from geothermal and yet the Assistant Minister wants us to believe that the main reason as why the cost of power has escalated to unmanageable levels is substitution because of fuel costs. Secondly, when KPLC was posting these astronomical profits, the agency that generates power; KenGen, was posting astronomical losses, which raises the question of the connection between the cost at which KenGen generates and supplies power to KPLC and the cost at which KPLC supplies that power and charges the ordinary Kenyan. What is the Governmentâs position on the question of overpricing - which is so obvious here - that the agency that generates and supplies power to KPLC makes losses and yet KPLC is the chief consumer of the power generated by KenGen? We cannot allow the Assistant Minister---
Order! Order, Mr. Namwamba! This is Question Time!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, could the Assistant Minister give the Governmentâs position on the obvious immoral overpricing that has made the cost of electricity to become unbearable to the ordinary Kenyan and which is pushing investors out of this economy because of escalation of the cost of production?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, KPLC is a power utility company which signs what we call âPower Purchase Agreementsâ with power generating agencies, including KenGen, Emergency Power and the independent power producers. So, when such producers commit themselves by signing such an agreement, for example, Mumias Sugar Company commits itself to produce power at the rate contained in the agreement, they cannot complain. When they say that KenGen made a loss, it is okay because when they were signing the agreement, it was based on the hydro power plants which were generating about 724 megawatts. With the failure of rainfall on the Aberdare Mountains, we had a problem with hydro power production. I remember that last year, Masinga Dam had to be closed down, which impacted negatively on KenGen. They resorted to using Kipevu I and Kipevu II power plants which are run on diesel. I have said IBERAFRICA Africa generates about 100 megawatts of electricity using diesel, and AGGREKO, which is emergency power producer, which is part of what we bought last year, generates almost 250 megawatts. Rabai, which is a new project, generates about 65 megawatts. All these power producers are based on diesel. If you see
Mr. Speaker, Sir, if I heard the Assistant Minister well, he has just confirmed the worries of the hon. Member who brought this Question. The Ministry is more concerned about infrastructural development as opposed to the impact the pricing of electricity has on employment and consumer welfare, including the purchasing power of consumers right now. Can he then revisit that issue â because they are sacrificing a lot presently â and look for resources from outside to inject into this sector, so that they can put the infrastructure in place without affecting consumers and employment in this country?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have said clearly that we have resources from the Exchequer, amounting to about Kshs15 billion, intended for enhancing the transmission and distribution networks, which involves the Rural Electrification Authority (REA), which, as we are all aware, is about Kshs5 billion, as well as generation. Last year, we voted about Kshs5 billion to geothermal companies. So, if we say that we are going to use Exchequer money only to fund the existing transmission lines, we will not be able to improve connectivity from 20 per cent to the required standard or even to 100 per cent. Currently, our connectivity is at 20 per cent.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, when the Government offloaded part of its majority shareholding in KPLC, it effectively made KPLC a monopoly. In order to make sure that, that monopoly is not misused, the Kenya Electricity Regulatory Authority (KERA) was created. What is the role of this Authority in ensuring that electric power is available to ordinary Kenyans at an affordable price?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I did not get the question.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, when the Government offloaded part of its majority shareholding in KPLC, it effectively made KPLC a monopoly in distribution of electricity. This exposed the ordinary Kenyan to overpricing by the monopoly. So, the KERA was created. What is its role in making sure that electricity is available to ordinary Kenyans at an affordable price?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, what was created is called Electricity Regulatory Commission (ERC), which regulates the electricity tariffs. Electricity tariffs are not fixed by the KPLC but by the ERC. I was explaining that what affected the adjustment of the electricity tariffs is the diesel element. So, until we do away with emergency power generation using diesel plants by March, 2011, we will still be paying about Kshs7 per megawatt.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, although the Assistant Minister has explained why there is high fuel cost, this will continue to antagonise and frustrate Kenyans in terms of meeting their consumption needs. Why does the Ministry not liaise with the fuel
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the cost of diesel cuts across the board. These plants are supplied by all the companies that are here. When we say Uganda, it has not come into the market. For the case of Sudan, we are still talking with them. More importantly, you are all aware that our exploration of oil is on-going in Isiolo. They will complete the exercise by the end of next month and then we wait for the results. We hope to embark and put our resources on the exploration so that as a country we can get oil and lower the cost of diesel.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is a very serious issue for the whole country. Twenty years ago Kenyans were told that electricity would be in every home. Right now it is completely a different picture. The charges of electricity have increased by between 350 and 800 per cent. The Assistant Minister has told us that they do not have control over the Kenya Power and Lighting Company (KPLC) Ltd. I know that the Government is the single majority shareholder with 48 per cent shareholding, and that is subject to correction. Mr. Speaker, Sir, KenGen is generating power---
Please, come to the question!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, could the Assistant Minister assure this House of three things? Could he reduce their profit margin, operation costs and make sure that KenGen reduce their charges to the KPLC Ltd.?
Mr. Assistant Minister, the question is all about reduction!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, as I said earlier on, the profit which was made by the KPLC for the six months is about Kshs1.8 billion. Out of that amount, Kshs1.6 billion goes back to network expansion and improvement. That is why we need to improve the transmission lines. Otherwise, with the improvement of distribution, we will have poor quality of power and numerous blackouts. Mr. Speaker, Sir, this profit is about 25 per cent. The KPLC gets funds from the World Bank, the African Development Bank (ADB) and other international institutions which require it to raise equity of up to 30 per cent. The Kshs1.8 billion profit I have talked about is only 25 per cent, and yet the loans repayment and expansion of network cost is about Kshs6.6 billion. Therefore, if we reduce the charges the KPLC will automatically go under.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, one of the reasons for the collapse of the Pan- African Paper Mills was very high electricity bill of Kshs200 million. In view of the fact that the KPLC Ltd. has made a huge profit, could the Assistant Minister consider writing off the amount owed by the Pan-African Paper Mills? Secondly---
Order, Mr. Sambu! Ask one supplementary question! Assistant Minister, would you reply?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, with due respect Mr. Sambu was the Chairman of the KPLC at the time the tariffs were increased. He knows very well that if the profit margin of the KPLC is reduced, the company will not be able to operate. The negotiations between the Pan-African Paper Mills and the Ministry of Energy through the Ministry of Industrilization are on-going. I am unable to say that we will
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Assistant Minister knows the multiplier effective that the high cost of energy has on this country. The profit that is being ploughed back of Kshs1.6 billion in six months gives us about Kshs3.2 billion in a year. Could the Assistant Minister tell this House why the Ministry cannot consider reducing tariff to the extent of reducing that profit margin? If the Ministry would like to expand the infrastructure it can do it through budgetary request in the formal way.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have listened to what the hon. Member has said. He has said that, instead of using the profit to expand the network, we can use the budgetary request. Bearing in mind that, we will cut down on other organs of power, that means that we will reduce the rural electrification funds, the funds that are allocated to the transmission company and geothermal funds. I have said---
Order, hon. Member for Gwassi! That is disorderly conduct! Continue, Mr. Assistant Minister!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, we will look into that. We are not saying we are not listening to---
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
What is it, the Member for Gwassi?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think the Assistant Minister did not get my argument clearly. I wanted to inform him that if you reduce tariffs---
Order! That is a point of information and you know the rules! The Assistant Minister must agree that he wants you to inform him.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I thought he accepted.
Mr. Assistant Minister, do you want to be informed by the Member for Gwassi?
Well, let me continue with what I was saying. I do not want any information.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have listened to the wishes of the Members. The Energy Regulatory Commission (ERC) will work out the modalities. Where it is possible to reduce, we will do that and where it is not possible, we will not. I have said that we will do away with emergency power. This will automatically reduce the cost of electricity.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, what the KPLC is charging the consumers is criminal. Manufacturing companies which employ thousands of people are relocating to neighbouring countries. Tenants are paying two rents; one to the KPLC Ltd. and another to the landlords. Landlords have become tenants in their own houses. If you are a landlord who pays the KPLC between Kshs30, 000 and Kshs40,000, you are actually a tenant.
Come to the question, the Member for Yatta!
I am getting there, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Do not explain why you are asking the question. Ask it!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, what the Assistant Minister has said that they will move from thermal power generation by March when the rains will be enough is not logical. Those are almost perennial!
The Member for Yatta, you are an intelligent man. Just ask the question!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is an emotional thing. The only place I can express that emotion is here. I am not speaking on my behalf---
I know you are but these matters are about logic and not emotions!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I hear you and stand corrected. Could the Assistant Minister consider removing the Value Added Tax (VAT) on power charges? Could he also consider removing the Customs Tax and the VAT on solar energy products?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to tell my colleague, Mr. C. Kilonzo that by March, 2011, we will have put in place the geothermal plants. We are buying what we call âwell heatsâ. After drilling one well, we are able to generate about five to ten megawatts instantly. In our projection, we will have put about 60 megawatts to our grid by December, therefore, relieving us the use of emergency power. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the VAT is negligible. It is levied on the fixed charges and any consumption which is above 200 units. Therefore, it is not a major element in the billing. The major element is the fuel cost and that is what we are targeting. We will look into his proposal on solar energy products because it is good.
Member for Isiolo South! Mr. Bahari!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister for Agriculture the following Question by Private Notice. (a) Is the Minister aware that there was a total crop failure in Kinna, Rapsu and Gafarsa Irrigation Schemes in Isiolo South Constituency due to the inappropriate seed variety supplied by the Ministry? (b) What urgent steps will the Minister take to compensate the farmers for the immense loss incurred?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) I am not aware that there was total crop failure in Kinna, Rapsu and Gafarsa Irrigation Schemes in Isiolo South Constituency due to the inappropriate seed variety supplied by the Ministry. But I am aware that in Kinna and Rapsu the rains were below average due to other production factors that are being addressed by the Ministry. (b) The Ministry has no plans to compensate farmers for crop losses due to natural calamities like drought. However, more seeds were sent to them for planting this planting season.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. This Assistant Minister admits on one side that there was a crop failure and tries to give reasons of drought and on the other side he is saying he is not aware that there was a crop failure. In the same area when different seed varieties were used from the ones distributed by the Ministry, there was a bumper harvest by the farmers, yet from the seeds the farmers got from the Ministry there was a poor harvest. Therefore, it cannot be drought; it can only be by deduction the results of inappropriate seed varieties. Could the Assistant Minister undertake to take up this matter, go down to these farms and investigate thoroughly what the real cause was, as this answer is misleading?
I do not really agree with the hon. Member that other maize seeds grew well. There are things which go with the highbrid seed; these are things like manure and fertilizer. When we analysed the soil of the area, we found that it had a very low nitrogen and organic carbon and also phosphorous. This could have been corrected by using fertilizer. Now what we have done--- In the last season, farmers did not have a depot where they could get subsidised fertilizer from, but now we are making arrangements for them to get fertilizer at Kinna.
Order, hon. Chachu! You stood up too late!
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I am happy that the Assistant Minister says he is going to provide fertilizer and the rest, so that these farmers can do better. It took us a long time to convince the people in the area to go into farming, because of food shortages. Can the Assistant Minister ensure that the fertilizer is available at the nearest point within that area, because the nearest available source of fertilizer is 50 kilometres away?
I would like to thank the hon. Member for encouraging his constituents to start farming. Today their acreage has increased and that is why we are taking the initiative to bring fertilizer closer to them. We are even organising to see whether the local manure, which is left to go to waste around there, could be used. We are also planning to bring the area into another programme, where we want to encourage the farmers to get into the Kinaya programme. That will really improve farming in that area.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister for Education the following Question by Private Notice. (a) Could the Minister explain the circumstances that led to the cancellation of the 2009 KCSE Chemistry Paper 3 (practicals) examination results of Kaplong GirlsâSecondary School? (b) What is the fate of the students concerned?
Minister for Education! Who will hold brief for the Minister for Education? Minister for Industrialisation!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I undertake to get the Minister to come and reply. I happen to be privileged that when the House next meets---
Order! Hon. Members! I will defer this Question to Thursday next week. Member for Nyakach!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister for Transport the following Question by Private Notice. (a) Could the Minister explain why the Kenya Airports Authority operated without a chairman to the Board for the entire 2009 and also failed to hold any Board meeting during the period? (b) How did the Authority run its affairs without the Boardâs approval during the period?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) I am aware that the former chairman of the Kenya Airports Authority Board of Directors contract expired on 19th July, 2009. Subsequently Board meetings were held on the following dates: 24th September, 2009; 27th October, 2009 and 14th December, 2009. The meetings were held in line with the laid down procedures for meetings, which allow members present to nominate one member to act as chairman and preside over the meetings where the chairman is late, absent or indisposed. (b) The Authority at all times, therefore, ran its affairs with the Boardâs approval. The appointment of the chairman of the KAA is a prerogative of the Head of State under the State Corporations Act, Section 6(1)(a), which provides for appointment for a period of two years. A chairman was appointed on 8th January 2010.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the KAA is a very important institution in this country and you have seen here that for the last six months it did not have a chairman of the Board. Why did the Board fail to hold its meetings between January and August last year?
Normally, the Board is limited to four meetings in a year, and does not have to hold a meeting every month. The necessary meetings were held. Therefore, the Board did not fail to perform its statutory duties.
On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Before the Assistant Minister continues, is he in Order to mislead the House that the Board is limited to four meetings? It is a minimum of four meetings; so, they can hold more meetings. Is he in Order?
I said a minimum of four; I did not say only four, the minimum of four meetings were held, not to mention actually that they were more than four.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Can the Assistant Minister tell us what the qualifications are for one to be chairman of the KAA and possibly tell us the age brackets? Is a candidate supposed to be of the Assistant Ministerâs age or younger? Could he tell us the qualifications for one to be the chairman of the KAA?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, today, the maximum age that is prescribed by the Government is 60 years. But for political conveniences, some people have exceeded the
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for the Assistant Minister to mislead this House that the maximum age for chairmen of boards of parastatals and, more particularly, Kenya Airports Authority (KAA) is 60 years?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I said that within the Government, the maximum age a civil servant can work is 60 years. I said that for the age of a chairman of a board, it is the discretion of the President. Usually, the chairman is appointed by the President. That is a discretionary decision of the Head of State.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Assistant Minister has just told this House that it is the President who appoints the chairmen of those boards. Could he tell this House what he has done to inform the Head of State that, that appointment has taken too long?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, immediately! Usually, the procedure that the Ministry follows is that three months before the expiry of the term of a chairman, it informs the Head of Public Service who then informs the President. From that position, the Ministry becomes functus officio. It becomes the decision and the discretion of the Head of State.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I believe you heard the Assistant Minister say that for political reasons, the age limit can be varied. Could he tell us whether the appointment of a chairman depends on political reasons? If there are political reasons, could he itemize what those political reasons are? How do we measure them?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I did not say a political question. I said a political discretion.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, could the Assistant Minister give us the names that were forwarded to the appointing authority for appointment?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like, once again, to repeat that the discretion of appointing a chairman of a State corporation lies with the President. The names do not emanate from the Ministry. The only names that are given to the Ministry are the ones that are selected by the Board for the appointment of a Managing Director. But the appointment of the chairmen is the discretion of the Head of State.
Hon. Members, Question No.096 is deferred to ten days away from today. That is because the hon. Member is away on parliamentary business.
asked the Minister for Forestry and Wildlife:- (a) what plans he has to compensate Mr. Joram Ochenga, who was attacked and seriously injured by a lion at Maragoli Hills on 3rd September, 2002; and, (b) what measures he will take to protect the residents of the area from such attacks in future?
The Minister for Forestry and Wildlife? Mr. Kosgey, will you hold brief for the Minister?
Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Once again, I will tell the Minister to come and answer it next week on Tuesday.
It cannot be once again because the Minister was absent last week as well, when he was expected to answer a Question.
Order, Mr. Onyonka! That is not the way we conduct business here!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the other time when I asked a Question, I said that because of collective responsibility, another Minister could undertake to answer a Question like this one. That is because it is taking a lot of time and causing a lot of anxiety. So, could the Minister who has just undertaken to inform the substantive Minister, undertake to answer the Question himself on Tuesday, now that the Minister for---
Order, hon. Members! I will expect the Minister for Forestry and Wildlife to be here to answer this Question himself and, for the moment, as things stand, the absence of the Minister amounts to disorderly conduct and so, the Minister will not transact any business in this House beginning now until an explanation is offered as to why he is not here. The Minister was not here last week and he is not here today.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Just before you pass that harsh judgment on the Minister, I thought we should give you some information that the Minister is out of the country because of the ivory trade conference which is taking place in Doha. He is there with the permission of His Excellency the President.
Order, Mr. Murungi! Is he accompanied by his Assistant Minister?
I do not know that one, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
If you do not know, then the punishment must stand! Hon. Members, the Minister for Forestry and Wildlife will not be allowed to transact any business in this House until such time that an explanation is offered as to why he is absent and, therefore, unable to answer this Question. That covers the Assistant Minister as well or any other Minister that may be instructed to act on behalf of this Ministry! Otherwise, the Question is deferred to Tuesday next week!
asked the Minister for Higher Education, Science and Technology: - (a) to inform the House how many casual employees are currently employed by the Multimedia University College of Kenya and state how long each of the employees has worked as a casual; and, (b) what plans she has to ensure that they are employed in compliance with the labour laws?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a)The number of employees currently employed by the Multimedia University College is 138. Of those, as of 26th February, 2010, 117 were casual employees who had worked for 46 days. Twenty one casual employees worked for 24 days each. (b)The institution, as you know, is in transition. It has just been formed. But they are now trying to regularize their employment according to the laws of Kenya. They have assured us that they will follow all the regulations.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the information that I have is that the number of casual employees at the Multimedia University College is 149 and not 138. But I will leave that to the Minister to verify. But my concern is that those casual employees who have worked between three months and two years are 98. Could the Minister explain, how long does an employee work as a casual before he or she is permanently employed? Under what circumstances have the 98 employees worked as casuals?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am not aware that 98 people are still casuals. I have given their number as 138. We did not call them. We went to the university, conducted an audit and came up with that number. The law says that if you work for three months, you must be confirmed. I have already said that there are 117 who have worked for 46 days. There are 21 casuals who have worked for 24 days. When any of them gets to three months, they will be deemed to be permanent and they will have to be hired according to the law. In this context, the Ministry has taken a further step of notifying the university - in writing under my own signature â that, they should quickly move ahead and hire people on permanent basis starting with those who have been there the longest.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, could the Minister confirm that some of those employees were allowed to work for only a few months and then laid off and re-engaged again to beat the labour laws? If yes, can they now be confirmed?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have the names of all the people who are employed as casuals. What is being said is probably speculation but in any event, I have said that the Ministry has taken the steps under my signature to the Acting Principal to hire the people who have been there on permanent basis. I cannot, therefore, hire them permanently on the Floor of the House.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I appreciate the action being taken by the Minister. However, I would like her to explain what privileges are these casual employees entitled to with regard to working overtime, housing and medical care as per the terms and conditions of service? Are they entitled to any allowances because that is one major complaint?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the details being sought are outside the work of the Ministry. Those fall under the Ministry of Labour. We can confirm to the House that they
asked the Attorney-General:- (a) to confirm that the High Court issued a decree for compensation of Messrs Dominic Arony Omolo, Alex Okoth Ondewe, Naftali Karanja Wandui, Joseph Gichuki Karanja, Rumba Kinuthia, Andrew Muriithi Ndirangu and Njuguna Mutahi and Margaret Wangui Gachau, all victims of torture in Kisumu HCCC 366/95, Nairobi HCCC 384/053, 85/85, 386/05, 1408/04, 1409/04, 1410/04 and 1412/04; respectively, and that no appeal was filed by the Government against the decree within the stipulated period; (b) why the Government has acted in contempt of the Court orders by refusing to settle the decrees; and, (c) what measures the Government has taken to settle the decrees.
Mr. Speaker, Sir---
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I wish to point out that I have not received any written answer from the Attorney-General.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am surprised that he has not received a written reply when I am aware that the written reply was sent to Parliament this morning. He is a learned colleague, I know he will follow my response.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) I can confirm as stated, except in the case involving Mr. Dominic Arony Amolo. The Attorney-General is yet to receive a certified copy of the proceedings to enable an appeal to be filed. (b) The Government has not acted in contempt of the court orders by refusing to settle the decrees. (c) The Government has taken the following steps: 1. In the case of Dr. Odhiambo Olel versus the Attorney-General, HCC No. 336, the decretal amount of Kshs25,657,996.30 was paid vide cheque dated 28th May, 2009 in favour of Koroyola Olel and Company Advocates. I believe the advocate is a son of the plaintiff who is a doctor. 2. Seven cases HCC No.384/85, Alex Okoth Ondewe versus the Attorney-General HCCC No.385/05 Naftali K. Wandui versus the Attorney-General; HCCC No.386/08, Joseph G. Karanja versus the Attorney-General; HCCC No.1408/04, Rumba Kinuthia versus the Attorney-General; HCCC No.1409/04, Andrew Muriithi Ndirangu versus the Attorney- General; HCCC No.1410/04, Njuguna Mutahi versus the Attorney-General; HCCC No.1412/04, Margaret Wanjohi versus the Attorney-General; all these seven cases were consolidated and judgment given on 28th May, 2008 in favour of each claimant for Kshs1.5 million plus costs and interest. The total amount of Kshs11,632,484 was paid by remittance on 24th December, 2009, to Messrs Gitau, JH Mwara and Company Advocates who were acting for all the seven plaintiffs.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to thank the Attorney-General for the answer he has given, particularly confirming that the various cases have been settled as he has stated. I confirm that is the position. For the remaining one for Dr. Dominic Amolo, could he confirm when he will be paid? Why does he have to wait. There is always a miscellaneous account in the Government to settle this decree if there is no appeal.
I must admit that there has been a bit of delay in this particular claim mainly occasioned by the fact that up to today, the court has not given a certified copy of the proceedings to file the appeal. In view of the fact that the court has taken a long time, I have recommended that the claim be paid. That is why the Office of the Vice-President and Ministry of Home Affairs has stated that this claim will definitely be paid in the next financial year.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I thank the Attorney-General for his answer. I happen to have been a lawyer for Dominic Arony and the judgment was entered on 11 March, 2005 by a three bench constitutional court. When the Attorney-General says they have been waiting for an appeal, is he not misleading the House given that there has been a stay and that neither the Ministry nor the Attorney-General has applied for a stay of the execution. Why has it taken successive years from 2005 up to this year without making any financial allocations in the successive budget? Could the Minister give an assurance to this House that this money will be paid among the very first claims, as soon as the budget is passed in June 2010?
The fact of the matter is that the judgment was given on the date that it was given. On the same day, my officers filed a notice of appeal and applied for a certified copy of the ruling to enable an appeal to be filed. As I have already admitted, it has taken an inordinately long time for this record to be made available. I can confirm that the Registrar of the High Court is now carrying out an investigation into why there has been this inordinate delay in the preparation of the record of appeal.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Permanent Secretary, the Office of the Vice-President and Ministry of Home Affairs has undertaken to take care of these payments in the next financial year.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, when parties go through the legal process and litigants secure judgment against the Government, it is expected that the Government will honour the decrees of the court. That is why the Government Proceedings Act was enacted to ensure that the Government is shielded against irregular attachments. But in view of the fact that the office of the Attorney-General is making successful litigants literally beg for decrees to be discharged, what is the Attorney-General doing to ensure that Ministries which are supposed to discharge these decrees put financial considerations in their Budgets, so that there are no delays like the ones we are experiencing now?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I agree with the hon. Member and I have advised all the Ministries to ensure that judgment entered against them should be paid promptly. At the end of the day, the Government pays more than was ordered in the judgment because
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The Attorney-General says the procedure is not to come to this House to demand for payments when he knows that Members of Parliament are here to represent the interests of Kenyans. Asking Questions in this House is part of the responsibility of a Member of Parliament. Is he in order to tell us that the procedure is not to come to this House? He has admitted that I even obtained the certificate against the Government and he has not paid this money.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I said that we shall be considerably helped if the Members of Parliament insisted the procedure laid down under the Government Proceedings Act was followed. Where a certificate has been obtained against the Government, the procedure is that an application is filed for a mandamus to direct the Accounting Officer to pay on the pain of being committed to civil jail. If these applications were filed to commit the Accounting Officers to civil jail if they do not honour court decrees, I am quite sure more efforts will be made and there will be fewer Questions in Parliament.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Attorney-General has told us that his office has done its part in communicating with the relevant Government offices, but my experience is to the contrary. Could he table the letters with which he communicated to the relevant Government Ministries in this case, so that we can see on what dates and we can apportion the delay? Secondly, could he also tell us whether he has advised the Government that failure to pay is actually a case of impunity? The rule of law means that the Government must obey the law like all citizens.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, definitely, a circular has already been sent to all Accounting Officers by the Head of Public Service. It is a long circular dealing with the issue of how to deal with summons which emanate from Ministries. One of the problems was summons are served and the first time the Attorney-General comes to hear of them, is after judgment has been more or less entered. This is because Ministries have not taken those summons seriously. The second problem is that even where it is served and forwarded to the Attorney-General, the Accounting Officers normally think that because they have forwarded them to the Attorney-General, the Attorney-General knows all about it. He has to file the defence, enter appearance and so on. Obviously, without instructions, we cannot do so. Even where that has happened and we have now come to the hearing of the matter---
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. We cannot hear the Attorney- General properly because hon. Members are consulting very loudly.
Order, hon. Members! Please, lower the level of your consultations, so that we can hear the Attorney-General! Hon. Attorney-General, proceed.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, even where summons have been taken to the Accounting Officers, the Ministries have failed to give proper brief to the Attorney- General for various reasons. Even where a brief has been given and the defence has been filed, when the case comes up for hearing in court, the Ministries have failed to make witnesses available maybe, because of various difficulties, for example, some officers have been transferred, resigned and so on. When we come to executing the decree, it will be extremely useful if after obtaining the certificate against the Government, which is provided for under the Government Proceedings Act--- That certificate is against the officer of the Ministry--- If that authorized officer fails to pay in accordance with the Act, then the procedure there is to apply for a mandamus to direct the officer to pay. Failure to which, he is committed to civil jail.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Attorney-General is aware that the cases referred to in this Question relate to the victims of the Nyayo Torture Chambers. Could he tell this House why he cannot pay them and leave this matter to rest? If the appeal has been filed, of what purpose is it when he has already confirmed that the problem is with the relevant Ministries? Could he also confirm that he will not proceed with the appeal and he will make these payments immediately?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think I did state that in the interest of justice, the decree holder had waited for such a long time to get the fruits of his labour in court, through really no fault of his. I stated that the appeal will not be proceeded with and I will now focus on the payment. In fact, I have already received a positive response from the Ministry of Home Affairs, but we shall try to see how that response can be expedited.
Order! Hon. Members, because we have many requests for Ministerial Statements that are going to be made and we have two Ministerial Statements which will be delivered, I want to defer Question No.087 and Question No.126 to Tuesday next week, at 2.30 p.m.
We will now proceed in the following order. First, we will take requests for Ministerial Statements and then we will take a Statement which is fairly urgent and, perhaps, one more.
Member for Gichugu!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wish to request the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security to issue a Ministerial Statement on the circumstances surrounding the murder of four people last night in Murinduku Location of Mwea Constituency, in the land more particularly known as South Ngariama Ranch. Could he also give us an account of the people killed in that area since 2008 and tell us what measures he is taking to ensure there is security in the area and that the culprits are brought to book? Could he also tell us what he is doing to secure the larger Kirinyaga District in view of the recent murders in and around Kerugoya Town?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will be able to give a Statement on Thursday, next week.
It is so ordered!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wish to seek a Ministerial Statement from the Attorney-General, as the protector of witnesses, particularly the witnesses who will be giving evidence at the ICC.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, last night, the offices of the International Centre for Policy and Conflict Resolution (ICPCR) headed by Mr. Ndungâu Wainaina were raided. Fortunately, Mr. Wainaina had left the office, but computers and other data that he had been keeping in relation to witnesses and witnesses particulars were taken away. Could the Attorney- General, as a matter of urgency, give a Statement assuring this House that witnesses will be protected and that measures will be taken to investigate and find the real cause for this raid, the circumstances under which these computers were taken and also give assurance for the safety of Mr. Ndungâu Wainaina?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, on the issue of witnesses being protected, I want to inform this House that I published a Bill, which I believe has now matured. It should really be on the Order Paper as a matter of priority. When it comes here, I hope that hon. Members will be able to enact it quickly so that we can have an effective structure in place to protect witnesses.
As to what happened to the ICPCR, headed by Mr. Wainaina, this is the time I am hearing it. But I can take this opportunity, in this Parliament, to direct the Commissioner of Police, under the powers conferred upon me under Section 26(4), to carry out investigations comprehensively and immediately---
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The issue that has been raised by hon. Imanyara is so grave and the Attorney-General has admitted in this House that he
Order, Member for Kisumu Town West! I think some patience pays. The Attorney-General was just doing, I believe, a preliminary part, and he ought to be heard really. He has not concluded.
Proceed, Mr. Attorney-General!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, as I was saying, I am using the powers conferred upon me under Section 26(4) to order immediate investigations which will be carried out comprehensively and expeditiously. I am, in fact, glad that the Minister who is responsible for the police is here and that my instructions will be carried out.
Will you then deliver a Ministerial Statement to the House on Wednesday next week?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I can deliver a Statement on witness protection, but the Minister responsible for the police is here. He should be able to deliver that but he can answer for himself.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, we can give a Statement on Thursday next week.
Fair enough! It is so ordered!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wish to request, as a matter of national importance, for a Statement from the Minister for Education. We understand that it is wrong and terrible for candidates who are sitting for exams to actually cheat; we would like to know the basis for the ban on such candidates not to sit for exams for two years. We would like to know from the Minister whether that is not excessively draconian and if he based it on any law or some subsidiary legislation. What was the basis for that decision? What powers did the Kenya National Examination Council (KNEC) have to actually ban those candidates from sitting for such exams for the next two years?
Minister for Higher Education, Science and Technology, can you hold brief for your counterpart, to deliver a Statement on why the Ministry has banned candidates from sitting for examinations because of cheating?
We shall do so, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
On Wednesday next week?
On Wednesday next week.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am rising on a point of order. The Star Newspaper today, has reported in its headline that Members of Parliament are blocking
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Even though I agree with my brother, hon. Chanzu, on his concern, are some of the Ministerial Statements that we ask not going to interfere with the freedom of the Press and media? If the media reports some information from some of us, should they be victimized? Should we ask for explanations in this House?
Hon. Members, the matter which is raised relates to a report carried in one of our daily newspapers. The substance of it would appear to be referring to a meeting which took place outside this House. The Chair or the Speaker has no way of ascertaining what transpired in a meeting that took place elsewhere. I have no record of it. I do not have the benefit of the HANSARD. So, I will not be able to deal with that matter or give any directions on it, because they fall outside my purview. What I will urge the hon. Member for Vihiga to do, and indeed, other hon. Members who feel aggrieved by that story, is that immediately after the House rises or at the earliest opportune moment, convene a Press conference at the Media Centre and state the truth as it maybe. But if it was something that transpired in this House and, perhaps, it is misreported, then I would have had the powers to deal with it. I would have dealt with it very firmly because I would have had a record, a point of reference on which to rely. This, I am afraid, I cannot be helpful.
Further hon. Members, this is now taking advantage of my professional qualifications; those aggrieved, are at liberty to prefer action against the Star newspaper. You can file proceedings fort libel.
Let us proceed. Minister for Provincial Administration and Internal Security!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I do stand to make a Ministerial Statement on the unfortunate killing of seven taxi drivers by the Administration Police officers on 11th March, 2010 at about 1.00 a.m. along Naivasha Road, Dagoretti, near K-Rep Bank.
The names of the deceased persons are as follows:- (i) James Mugweru Mwangi (ii) Harry Gedion Thuku Mbogo
Any hon. Members seeking clarification? Proceed, hon. Njuguna!
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The Minister has very ably given a very lengthy statement; I note that this is a very serious and unique case; I am of the view that these Kenyans were brutally murdered or eliminated by the security forces; what immediate humanitarian assistance is the Government giving to the families affected, aware that they have members to feed, clothe and educate?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, listening to the Minister, the Statement he has just given to us is just the usual âNo stone will be left unturnedâ; âThorough investigations will be done.â This is a very serious matter! In the last one week, ten Kenyans have been
Hon. Ruto, you are now becoming repetitive! Proceed, Dr. Khalwale!
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. My condolences to family members of the men and women who were murdered by the police. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like the Minister to tell the country what action he is contemplating to take against the high command of the Administration Police, because this indiscipline we are seeing is duplicated across the country. The indiscipline is accompanied by lack of respect and observation of the public service regulations by the Administration Police high command as evidenced in a case in Malaba on 20th February, 2010, where two Administration Police officers also attacked bodaboda . They were overpowered by the public, arrested, taken to the police station, arraigned before court and the court released them on bond of Kshs8,000 each. Today, these officers are back on duty and they are working against the provisions of the regulations of the Public Service Commission.
The hon. Member for Kiharu!
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. We have all listened to the Minister narrating the old stories we have heard. Nairobi has become a butchery for young people from Central Kenya. Every weekend, there are burials and when the burials are taking place, the relatives are harassed by the same police. Could the Minister assure this House that these kind of killings will not continue, and that relatives will not be harassed during burials, where nobody tells us who kills these boys?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to know from the Minister what long term measures he has in place for the ten Kenyans who lost their lives this week? What is in place for the women and the children who were left behind? What measures is he putting in place to care for those loved ones that were left by the sole bread winners?
Order! Mr. Minister, because of the interest in this matter and because it pertains to life, we will take all the clarifications. So, just keep your notes and then you will respond. Proceed, hon. Member for Gwassi!
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The first time this incident occurred, the Minister addressed the nation and gave a position. Today, listening to him, I realize that things have changed. It appears that the Minister is getting scanty information from his Ministry. Is it that the Minister is being sidelined in his Ministry and, by extension, in this Government and, maybe, in Peopleâs Democratic Movement (PDM), or is it that he is being sabotaged in his Ministry? Finally, Mr. Speaker, Sir, in 2003, a number of people were removed from the streets to join the National Youth Service (NYS) and they subsequently found their way into the Administration Police. Could this be some signs of indiscipline carried over from the streets to the police force of this country?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to begin by saying that we should not use this opportunity to demonize the Administration Police. I believe there have been more extra judicial killings by the regular police than the Administration Police. But, Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Minister has talked about the police reforms. The Waki Report came out in late 2008. It recommended police reforms. When we are told of police reforms, almost a year-and-a-half later, we may not believe it. Could the Minister tell us, instead of promising us about police reforms that have not been forthcoming, that he will now order that any police officer who, in the course of duty, kills a civilian or who kills anybody, will have to file a report within a week and that, henceforth, there will be inquiries into all killings by the police to determine whether such officers should face the law or not? Could he consider using the Kenya Human Rights Commission to help him check this trend?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, like my colleagues before me, my condolences go to those Kenyans who lost their beloved ones just the other day. Mr. Speaker, Sir, many, many times, we have heard Ministers speak and give this House assurances that investigations will be carried out. Even with Prof. Alstonâs Report on extra judicial killings, we were told the same thing. Can the Minister give us a time frame within which he will come to this House and report on what action has been taken, apart from charging these people in court? Taking them to court tomorrow morning should not be the end of investigations, particularly with regard to Administration Police Officers who perform traffic duties. Under what circumstances are the Administration Police Officers allowed to perform traffic duties for which they are not trained?
Mr. Minister, you may now respond.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
What is it that is making you anxious, the Member for Ikolomani?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, is it in order for the Minister to avoid clarifying my point? If he doubts the authenticity of what I said, the two Administration Police Officers who were involved are Snr. Sergeant Eric Mudeku and Corporal Abdi Yousuf K. The incident took place on 20th February, 2010. They were reported at the police station and the police file number is 962/24/2010. The court file number is 380/2010. Could the Minister explain why these officers are still on duty? Why have they not been interdicted? What is it that he considers to do against the high command that has refused to observe the public service regulations?
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Order, Mr. Minister! Dr. Khalwale, do you want to pursue that further?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am not attempting to mislead this House. If the Minister can table in this House a document to confirm that, indeed, these two Administration Police Officers have been interdicted, then that would contradict what I have stated. However, just claiming that the officers were interdicted when we know that they are on duty despite having been arraigned before court, does not help justice in this country.
Hon. Members, we will take one more Ministerial Statement, which is very brief but, because we want to avoid a backlog of Ministerial Statements, hon. Musila will issue a Ministerial Statement on behalf of the Ministry of State for Defence, and that should last five minutes only.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, on 4th March, 2010, the Member of Parliament for Marakwet West, Mr. Boaz Kaino, rose on a point of order and requested for a Ministerial Statement from the Ministry of State for Defence. The hon. Member requested that the Ministry addresses the following issues concerning incursion into Kenya by Ethiopian raiders:- (i) the number of people, both civilians and security officers, killed or maimed in the raid in Turkana North District; (ii) the number of cattle that was lost during the incursion; and, (iii) the measures that the Government has put in place to ensure that our borders are secure.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the hon. Member sought clarifications on matters that are basically in the purview of the Ministry of State for Internal Security and Provincial Administration. However, after consultations, I beg to respond as follows.
Our investigations, through the local administration, the General Service Unit (GSU) and our own military personnel, who are deployed and operating in Turkana North District, have established that the Nyangatom tribe of Ethiopia raided a Kenyan water point in Tundanyang on 27th February, 2010. During the raid, one GSU officers was killed---
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The Minister for Public Health and Sanitation, Mrs. Beth Mugo, has been standing there for more than five minutes. Is it in order for an hon. Member to remain standing in the Chamber?
Order, hon. Members! If you read our Standing Orders, you will realise that the Minister for Public Health and Sanitation is out of order. You are only supposed to transit through those pathways. You are not supposed to hold a meeting in the pathways. So, hon. Beth Mugo, will you, please, restrain yourself? It is further out of order for you to circulate a list that the Speaker has not authorised within the Chamber. So, you will have to stop that circulation. If hon. Members want to know, circulation of lists seeking for support in the Chamber are limited to cases where either hon. Members of the House, or their spouses, have passed on. Anything outside that must be circulated outside the Chamber. Please, be guided accordingly. Proceed, hon. David Musila!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, before I was interrupted, I had confirmed that the Nyangatom tribe of Ethiopia raided a Kenyan water point at Tungonyang on 27th February, 2010, and that during the raid, one GSU officer was killed. The officer was in charge of a group of GSU officers that was guarding the water point. There were no other injuries on either side. Secondly, we can confirm that no heads of cattle were lost during the invasion. Thirdly, the Government has put in place several measures to ensure that our borders are secure. In order to curb the aforementioned socio-economic problems, the Government, through the Ministry of State for Defence, Ministry of Health, Ministry of Education, Ministry of Roads, Ministry of Fisheries Development, Ministry of Agriculture, and Ministry of Livestock Development, have undertaken the following measures:- 1. Mounting of a joint disarmament operation code-named â Operation Rudisha
â with Uganda, and we intend to extend the same operation to be conducted between Ethiopia and Sudan.
The next operation between Uganda and Kenya, along the common border, will start in a few weeksâ time. 2. Cross-border liaison between the military and district security intelligence committees of the neighbouring countries is taking place. Mr. Speaker, Sir, during the last joint operation with Uganda, the following was achieved:- 1. We managed to recover 2,401 assorted weapons and 5,197 rounds of ammunition; 2. During the operation also the military dug 19 water dams and drilled 20 boreholes in the area. 3. In addition, administration centres were opened in Kenyarus, Alale, Nyoyapong and Loyapach.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, hon. Members will note that countries in the region coming out of conflicts have acquired arms which encourage cross-border raids. Since it is difficult to put soldiers in every village, occasionally, such raids take place and some citizens or even our own soldiers, get injured or killed.
The biggest challenges in these districts of the North Rift are strong traditional culture and revenge attacks, particularly on cattle rustling for restocking purposes and dowry payments, lack of alternative means of livelihood, hence overdependence on
Hon. Kaino, would you like to seek a clarification? Is there any hon. Member who is interested in seeking a clarification? There is none! Mr. Musila, you have done very well. You have been very clear!
Hon. Members, that then brings us to the end of Statements. Before we proceed to the next order, I have the following Communication to make!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, this House do now adjourn until Tuesday, 23rd March, 2010. Mr. Speaker, Sir, without repeating the contents of your Communication, we did agree as the House Business Committee last time and failed on the Floor of the House. I wish to take this opportunity to commend Members who met under the auspices of the Parliamentary Caucus for Reform which I believe was chaired by Mr. Mungatana. It was convened subsequent to the failure to agree on the Motion of Adjournment last week. This group of Parliamentarians obviously did believe that it is possible to consult. Parliament does not have to go to Naivasha to consult. They did consult and agreed that it was necessary to consult even further.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I second the Motion.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, thank you for giving me the opportunity to support this Motion. In the first instance, I would like to congratulate this House. I am on record as saying that we do as we sincerely believe we do in the supremacy of this institution. It behooves us to be able to speak with one voice. When occasion provides itself, we debate and disagree on the Floor of the House. But a time comes when we have to really, as far as is practicable, speak with one voice. I think this is one such time. Mr. Speaker, Sir, in my own little right I happen to be a constitutional lawyer. I know that it is never easy to write a Constitution. We have been at it as a country for close to two decades. We will be able to provide positive change and work for positive change; it is this opportunity and that happens to be clearly before us, as the 10th Parliament. I am forever optimistic. I know that this time round we will hopefully give this country a new constitution.
I want to thank Members of the Parliamentary Select Committee (PSC) on the constitution, our own Committee, which was able to meet and agree under very interesting circumstances. Again, to get political agreement is never easy when it comes to constitution-making. I think that spirit should have been replicated even at the level of the Committee of Experts; I think by now we would be looking forward to the referendum. Mr. Speaker, Sir, even the idea of having a stepping aside or retreat time came from the chair, and I also want to congratulate you. You have the best interests of this
The hon. Mungatana!
Bw. Spika, nakushukuru kwa kunipa nafasi na mimi nizungumze, na kutoa maoni yangu kwa ufupi kuhusu Hoja hii. Kwanza, ningependa kuchukua nafasi hii kukushukuru,viongozi wa HBC, viongozi wa vyama vyetu vya kisiasa, ambao walikuja pamoja kukubaliana kwamba leo tulizungumze jambo ambalo liko mbele yetu.
Madam Naibu Spika wa Muda, pili, ningependa kuwashukuru wenzangu ambao tulikaa na kuzungumza chini ya Parliamentary Caucus for Reforms. Ningependa kusema kwamba walionyesha ushujaa. Nasema walionyesha ushujaa kwa nini? Kwa sababu katika vyombo vyetu vya habari, kumekuwa na mazungumzo ambayo yamekwenda kinyume na maridhiano ambayo Wabunge walikuwa wanataka. Kumekuwa na mazungumzo ambayo yameenda kinyume kabisa na ule moyo wa kutaka kuelewana. Ningependa kusema ya kwamba wote ambao tulikutana, tumesema ya kwamba jambo ni moja tu; sisi Wabunge tunafanya kazi yetu kama walivyofanya Committee of Experts (CoE). CoE walifanya kazi yao wakamaliza. Parliamentary Select Committee (PSC) ilifanya kazi yao ikamaliza. Sisi Wabunge pia tunataka kufanya kazi yetu tumalize. Njia ni mbili. Tutafanya kazi yetu kwa vita tuwe tunazungumza hapa tukiwa na hasira ama tutakaa kwanza tuelewane kisha ndio tuzungumze tukiwa na hali ya kutulia. Sisi Wabunge tumeamua kwamba, hata kama vyombo vya habari vitatutukana, ni sawa.
Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, I stand to support the Motion to adjourn the House to go and hold discussions and dialogue among Kenyans. This is the time that Parliament needs to give leadership to the nation on this important Constitution-making process. Some of us who had gone to Naivasha last week for the PSC felt disappointed. That did not take place then because we are spending a lot of time without resolving the issue of Constitution-making. Twenty years is a long time and I think this is the time that we should not lose the chance to give it to Kenyans. It is important for us to go now to have dialogue. Every problem has a solution. When people sit down and talk to each other, they will be able to understand each otherâs position. I want to say that I support the discussion that is going to be among the Parliamentarians, so that we can have a common position. We should be aware not to open everything. There are some principles that we worked on relating to governance, devolution and civil rights. Those are the principles that we, Parliamentarians, need to make sure that they are sustained.
It is important that when we come to such discussions, we should all put our cards on the table. The minute we play some of the cards under the table, we are going to be
Thank you very much, Madam Temporary Speaker, for giving me this opportunity to also add my support to the Motion of Adjournment. Many of us have spoken and said that Kenyans have waited for far too long to realize a new constitutional dispensation. It is true that we have waited for that document for too long and the earlier we dispose of it, the better for this country. The earlier we realize a new Constitution, the better for this country.
I am aware that we will meet somewhere in Nairobi and that is fine. But I would be failing in my duty if I do not warn this House that, even as we consult, we should know that we are making a Constitution for Kenyans. If we go to that meeting thinking that we are making a Constitution for ourselves, we will miss the point. It is also not right for us to demonize the work of the CoE. We hired those people; it is this House that hired the CoE. The process that we used was very detailed and elaborate. So, I believe that the CoE represents the face of this country because that was the bottom line. I want to also add that, as opposed to us, the advantage that the CoE has is enormous. They have all the documents that originated from the people of Kenya. They have the Bomas Draft, the so-called Wako Draft and even the Naivasha Draft. They have memoranda from the people of Kenya, which we do not have. Some were sent through email and others through representation. So, when the CoE changes or makes some amends on some of the agreements that were arrived at in Naivasha, we should not look at it negatively. We should look at it positively and think that probably, there is something that we are missing; that probably we are leaving Kenyans behind. Probably we are moving too fast. But we are here to represent the people of Kenya. Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, my concluding remarks are that as we head for that retreat--- although it was against my wish--- Personally I believe that there is no single day that we will have a document that everybody will say is perfect. This document will have to be worked on. I changed my mind when I went to County Hall for two days, that is on Friday and yesterday. I realized that many of us have not read this document. Some of the issues that we have are as a result of misinformation. So, it is important that we have an informal meeting so that we can be on the same page. Some of us believe that this document is for lawyers. That document is a purely political document which is very simple to understand even by accountants like myself.
Thank you, Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker. Like the rest of my colleagues, I would like to begin by supporting this Motion of Adjournment for us to meet and come to a consensus on the matters that are in this Draft Constitution. Madam Temporary Deputy Speaker, I am more concerned with the fact that without this meeting of consensus, we will have persons raising matters that they fear will be out of their favour, that will be individual, ethnic or regional. The only way that we can make those matters national is for us to have a meeting that will then be able to take us to a level where we are all at the same threshold of understanding. I am a member of the Parliamentary Select Committee on the Constitution. Like my colleagues, in natural circumstances based on the traditions of this House, I should not be raising matters requiring amendments because I ought to be owning the contents of this Draft.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, that is truly not the case in this scenario. The Review Act did not contemplate for us, the Members of the PSC and the CoE to have any disagreement. That is why the threshold for amendments in the Review Act is so high, because it was not anticipated. As a person who has interacted so much with the Review Act and Section 47(b), I feel that there is need for you to give guidance to this House on how to deal with the different clauses of this Draft. I say so because there is no precedence for dealing with the Draft. In 2005, when we dealt with the Draft Act we were approving a Motion by a Committee of this House which is a sub-sect of this House. So, there was ownership to the entire content of the Draft. At this point, the Motion that we will be passing is a Draft that belongs to the CoE and with not 100 ownership by Members of the PSC. So, we not only need your guidance on the fact that Section 33(b) of the Review Act requires a simple majority for us to pass this Act but requires a two-thirds majority for us to amend. The question I then ask for you to give guidance on is this: if we were going clause by clause and there is a particular clause that at the voting falls on its face at the simple majority stage, does that become an amendment? Mr. Speaker, Sir, another item I would like your guidance on is that Standing Order No.53 states that we need to give these amendments in writing with ample notice. How much time would that notice require or would some of us who suddenly get some bout of intelligence or light and come up with a spur of the moment amendment, would that be considered? As I support this Motion hoping that we will go and agree, I would really urge that you provide us with guidance on how to deal with the amendments especially considering Section 10 of this 33 would require---
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is the hon. Member in order to give the impression that we have a procedure laid before the House that we are going somewhere to look at this document clause by clause?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am very clear that the procedure stipulated under the Review Act and the Constitution did not anticipate the fact that we were going to deal with a Motion. We would only be dealing clause by clause if it is a Bill. I am well aware of that fact. I need that guidance because if I am confused and I have interacted well with this Act, I expect that other hon. Members need that guidance. If Mr. Midiwo does not need it, then it would explain why he is extremely--- I do not want to use the word because it is unparliamentarily. But I can tell him outside this House what I think his point of order means. With those few remarks, I beg to support.
Hon. Members, I confirm that I will give guidance and directions at the opportune moment in this House on the procedure that we will adopt. Mr. Okemo. There is a balance of just three minutes.
Much obliged, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I will do my best in those three minutes. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have tried to understand the procedure that has been stipulated in the Constitution of Kenya Review Act, 2008. I think it was clearly arranged in a manner that all stakeholders have got an input and that input will be recognized in the final document. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the consultations are too loud.
Order, hon. Members! Please, let us hear the Member for Nambale.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, looking at the Constitution of Kenya Review Act, 2008, the various stakeholders have been put there that will participate in this process. We have the Committee of Experts, the Parliamentary Select Committee, the National Assembly and the Referendum. At every stage, provision has been made for input from all sorts of people, particularly the Kenyan people. I believe that where we have reached, the Committee of Experts have received memoranda and all kinds of deliberations from the members of the public. The document that will come out of this exercise is supposed to be in the interest of the Kenyan people. Even in the selection of the Parliamentary Select Committee, it is clearly stated that the Parliamentary Select Committeeâs composition should take account of regions, gender and ethnic interests. So, if we have already provided for that, then the corollary of that is the Parliamentary Select Committee has taken account of all our interests. Where the Naivasha Draft reached, I think what is really left for us to do is to ensure that the draft document comes before this House and is passed and it is now ready for publication by the Attorney-General and ready for the Referendum. If we begin to introduce amendments at this point in time, I think we will derail the process. If that is the reason for our consultations, then I will not support them if they will lead to differences. I would rather that those differences remain where they are and we pass the document. They can resurface later. At the end of the day, what is important is that the Kenyan peopleâs interests must be taken care of. We should be looking at what
Order, hon. Members! The time for the Motion has lapsed and I will now put the Question.
Hon. Members, before we come to the end of business, I have two Communications to make.