Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security the following Question by Private Notice. (a) What led to the exhumation of the body of one Mr. Francis Mbuthia at Banita Farm on 30th November, 2011? (b) What measures has the Minister taken against the people who incited the public and facilitated the exercise? (c) What action has the Ministry also taken against the Assistant Chief and Senior Chiefs in that area, who supervised the illegal exhumation?
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. This matter appeared on the Order Paper last week and I raised a point of order on the issue of sub judice and the Chair then, Mr. Farah, said that he was going to deliver a ruling on it. That is what we are expecting today.
Let me just ascertain the position.
The Member for Kisumu Town West, I have verified that, indeed, you raised the issue of this matter possibly being sub judice and that the presiding officer did indicate that a ruling would be made today. Unfortunately, however, the matter was not drawn to my attention but I understand that the requisite communication is under process. I may then be able to give it next week before this matter appears again on the Order Paper.
That is suitable, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
The Member for Molo, please note that we will have to make communication on this matter as to whether it is sub judice or not next week.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, this Question was asked last week and it was deferred to today. It is a very sensitive issue---
Order, the Member for Molo! It is as if you were absent. Did you not follow what has transpired in the last ten minutes? I do not think you need to belabour the matter. Before that communication is made, you cannot ask the Question!
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister for Industrialization the following Question by Private Notice.
(a) How many companies bid to offer second hand motor vehicle inspection clarification services to the Kenya Bureau of Standards (KEBs)? (b) Under what circumstances was the tender awarded to a Japanese company, M/s Japan Vehicle Inspection Centre?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
(a)There were six companies that bid to offer inspection services for purposes of second hand motor vehicles.
(b)There was no award of tender. This tender was cancelled and re-advertised and is currently under technical evaluation.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, while appreciating the answer from the Assistant Minister, could he explain why the tender was cancelled twice instead of being awarded to the winner? Instead an extension was done twice to the same company and yet this is against procurement rules. Could he explain that?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, yes, there was extension of the bidding period twice. I think one was for four months and another one for 70 days. It was because of those extensions that we felt that there was external influence being brought to bear on the Kenya Bureau of Standards (KEBS). As you know these contracts, though they are not fee contracts, the contractors charge a fee to the users of the service. They are rather lucrative contracts and we felt as a Ministry that there was undue influence being exacted on the decision makers at the Bureau. Therefore, we cancelled the tender and asked that it be done again. It is now being redone under careful scrutiny so that no malpractice is extended.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Assistant Minister has said that there was external influence in the processing of the tender award. How did it happen and what has been done to remedy the situation so that there is fairness?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, this included solicitation where officers of one of the bidders sought to have discussions with some of our officers and obviously, this is not allowed. On what has been done, we are working with the Procurement Oversight Authority. As I said, the tender was cancelled and fresh bidding ordered. The fresh bids are now under evaluation. Normally, a technical team looks at the technical evaluation and then takes the matter to the board of the institution.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. It is clear that six interested companies applied for participation. Could the House be informed of the particulars of these companies?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, these companies were Japan Export Vehicle Inspection Centre (JEVIC) Quality Inspection Services, Bureau Veritas, Auto Termini Services of Japan and East African Auto. As to the particulars of the company, I am not sure whether the Questioner is asking for the registration details, the size of the company
The hon. Member for Baringo Central.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Assistant Minister has said that the tender now is at the evaluation stage. What mechanism has the Ministry put in place to ensure that there will be no external influence in this second tender?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the mechanism available to us is clear instructions to the board of directors as to the work we expect carried out, and how that work is to be carried out. This board has been properly and clearly directed by the Ministry.
The hon. Member for Mt. Elgon.
Could the Assistant Minister explain why JEVIC, which was given an extension twice, having been mentioned adversely, got the extension? Further, the allegations---
Order, hon. Member for Mt. Elgon! The supplementary question is supposed to be one; that is why you have two opportunities to begin and to end.
Correct, I take your instructions, Mr. Speaker, Sir. So, could you explain whether JEVIC, that was involved in unsolicited information and got the extension twice--- Could he explain why despite that anomaly, JEVIC was still considered?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, as you know, in the normal procurement and the way bidding takes place, during the bidding process, if one of the bidders, for example, seeks a clarification, we inform everybody and if that clarification were to necessitate an extension of the bidding period, then the procuring authority would typically do so. These are the sorts of things that happened in this bidding process.
However, as we have from the outset explained, the KEBS, as you know, is under scrutiny all the time. There are lucrative contracts and many allegations from time to time; therefore, we as the Ministry have to be very watchful and careful at each step. So, we found that two extensions appeared to be too many. We, really, said, let this process be done again and let it be done under the watchful eye of ourselves, and of the oversight authority to ensure that we get quality services for Kenyans.
The hon. Member for Konoin!
to ask the Minister for Public Health and Sanitation:-
(a) Is the Minister aware that there is an acute shortage of BCG vaccine in public health facilities in the South Rift region?
(b) What measures will the Minister take to ensure that there is immediate supply of the vaccine in all public health institutions?
Member for Konoin is not here? Question dropped!
The hon. Member for Mathioya.
to ask the Minister for Transport
Where is the hon. Member for Mathioya? The hon. Member for Mathioya is not here? The Question is dropped.
The hon. Member for Ikolomani!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs the following Question by Private Notice. Could the Minister clarify whether or not the determination and creation of 80 new constituencies before the 2012 General Election will take into account the 2009 census results which were nullified in eight districts in northern Kenya?
Where is the Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg the indulgence of the Chair to allow me to look for the Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs---
You have it, Assistant Minister.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am seeking the indulgence of the Chair to allow me to get hold of the Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs. In the meantime, we can go through other Questions. I am sorry about that.
Very well; we have just two Questions left. The hon. Member for Yatta!
asked the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security whether he could indicate the amount of money allocated to Yatta and Matuu Police Stations for fuel and vehicle maintenance in the last three financial years.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have not been given the answer; I do not mind if I am given the same now and we proceed.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, he has not received the answer because he has just walked in.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
The department does not issue funds directly to police stations but through their respective Officers Commanding Police Divisions (OCPDs). The disbursement of funds for purchase of fuel and maintenance of motor vehicles for OCPD, Machakos and Kangundo, under whom Yatta and Matuu Police Stations fall was as follows:-
In 2008/2009, Machakos got Kshs3.150 million; maintenance Kshs800,000.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
What is it, the hon. Member for Yatta?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, you notice that this Question was deferred and all we want is specifics for the two stations. The Assistant Minister is reading the same, same answer! All I need to know is how much was allocated to these two police stations, and we do not waste the time of the House. I have not received the answer.
I recollect that to be the position.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is true, but I have supplied the answer, is that not so?
Assistant Minister, I recollect that this matter was transacted previously, and all you needed to do was to indicate how much money was given to the said police stations.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the answer is that Yatta and Matuu Police Stations received fuel and maintenance funds as follows:- During the Financial Year 2008/2009, fuel funds for Matuu were Kshs259,200; 2009/2010, Kshs306,600; 2010/2011, Kshs231,000 and 2011/2012, Kshs266,660.70. Yatta got money as follows:- 2008/2009, Kshs259,200; 2009/2010, Kshs306,000; 2010/2011, Kshs231,000 and 2011/2012, Kshs266,666.70. That gives us a total of Kshs518,400 for 2008/2009; Kshs612,000 for 2009/2010; Kshs462,000 for 2010/2011; and Kshs533,333 for 2011/2012. For maintenance, Matuu got Kshs110,186 in 2008/2009; Kshs105,500 in 2009/2010; Kshs101,200 for 2010/2011 and Kshs106,666.70 for 2011/2012. For maintenance, Yatta got Kshs96,500 for 2008/2009; Kshs130,750 for 2009/2010; Kshs102,350 for 2010/2011 and Kshs106,666.70 for 2011/2012. Going by these figures and the prices of diesel, each station received between six to eight litres of diesel per day, which is not adequate. However, under the ongoing police reforms, the situation will improve, not only to Yatta and Matuu, but within the whole Republic.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Assistant Minister has accepted that is too little. Cases of insecurity and crime in Yatta and the neighbouring constituencies are on the rise. These stations do not only serve one constituency, but they serve about three and a half constituencies. As a matter of urgency and because we cannot wait for the police reforms, what is the Government doing to make sure that these stations and others in the country are given more money? Giving them six to eight litres is forcing the police officers to demand for money for fueling the vehicles from the citizens.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, that is true. As I mentioned, this eight to ten litres is not enough. However, we have asked the Treasury to allocate more money to us because we have more divisions and stations. They said that they are considering allocating more money for us to give to the police stations. Let us hope for the best. If the Treasury releases the money today, I will increase the level of the fuel which is being distributed.
Member for Naivasha!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am not sure whether we are through with my Question, but I am satisfied.
Order, Member for Yatta!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to ask the Question on behalf of the Member for Naivasha.
Order, Member for Yatta! You may be satisfied. Indeed, you are entitled to be satisfied, except for this: That if you recollect, we had come to a point where we were giving you the last opportunity to ask your second question. So, I am well aware that, in fact, you would ask the last question, which you have done.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, if you recall, your ruling was that the answer given by the Assistant Minister did not respond to the Question. I am also on a point of order, but that as may, I am comfortable.
, on behalf of
, asked the Attorney- General:- (a) how many cases relating to the 2007/2008 Post Election Violence (PEV) have been investigated and forwarded to the Attorney General with recommendations to prosecute, how many have been successfully prosecuted and what the status of each case is; (b) what measures are in place to fast-track all investigations and prosecutions relating to PEV before the 2012 General Elections; and, (c) what legal measures have been put in place for the protection of witnesses involved in the ICC investigations.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
On 23rd November, 2011, you directed me to provide the House with data relating to sexual offences and incitement cases in relation to post-election violence. I consulted the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) and he availed to my office the following information:- (a) There were 369 cases relating to sexual gender-based violence that were reported. About 139 cases were taken to court resulting in 53 convictions, 16 acquittals and 48 cases were withdrawn. Sixteen cases are still pending before the courts and 16 cases are pending the arrest of known suspects. About 162 cases are pending under investigations and 62 cases have been closed for lack of evidence. (b) Seventeen cases of incitement to violence were reported, 17 cases were taken to court resulting in four convictions and four acquittals. Eight cases were withdrawn and two cases are pending under investigations. There are no cases pending before court nor are there any other cases pending arrest of suspects. I have with me the full report of the DPP, and with your permission, I would like to avail it to the Member.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is one thing for a case to be pending before court and it is another thing for a case to be pending under investigations. What is the Government doing to fast-track the process of the cases which are pending under investigations, to ensure that the culprits are brought to book?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the question of PEV and local justice for the victims is a top priority for the Government. However, because of the nature of the events surrounding these cases, it has been very difficult to conduct investigations. Many people moved from their original locations. The police are working hard. There is a special taskforce that the Commissioner of Police put together for this purpose. I am
Mr. Speaker, Sir, in the list of the cases the Attorney-General has read out, I have carefully listened and I have not heard any case where somebody is being sued for forcefully displacing or expelling a Kenyan from his rightful place of settlement, neither has he said whether there is any case where somebody is being tried for forceful acquisition of such land. Since we know that these cases are there, that we have Kenyans who were forcefully displaced, how many cases is the Attorney-General aware relating to these kinds of people? Since there is normalcy in these areas, what plans does the Government have to ensure these people are resettled back on those pieces of land or allowed to sell those pieces of land?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the reason why the information sought by the Member is not contained in this report is because as you will recall, I had issued another comprehensive report on all the offences and then you directed me to bring one concentrating on sexual gender-based violence and incitement to violence. In my previous report, I had indicated situations where property related offences, including forceful taking of property, was involved. I want to assure the Member for Ikolomani that this remains a priority area for the Government. The resettlement of the victims of post election violence remains a priority area in particular. There are many initiatives, including that being carried out by the Truth, Justice and Reconciliation Commission (TJRC) and the other Agenda Four commissions to address the specific problems that have been raised.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, while I appreciate the good answer given by the Attorney-General, could he inform this House the special precautions the Government has taken to make sure that security of the prosecution witnesses and their families is guaranteed?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to assure the Member that it is my privilege to be Chairman of the Witness Protection Board. As we sit here today, there is a meeting going on in my Chambers. This is a priority area for us, not only with domestic cases, but even in international cases. The Members would be happy to know that our witness protection agency is working alongside the ICC as well to support the ICC in its witness protection programme. I would be very confident that we will provide these witnesses with all the protection that they require.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, we are moving to an election next year. What measures is the Attorney-General putting in place to ensure that in case this happens again, the mistakes that occurred in carrying out investigations and delaying justice do not occur again?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, this was a learning experience for all of us in very tragic circumstances. The agencies of the Government have learnt. I can assure the Member that my office is involved alongside other arms of the Government, in preparing to ensure that we will have free and fair elections, we will have the security that is required and an outcome that the people of Kenya will accept. We, probably, may never be able totally to eliminate criminal action, criminals will be apprehended, prosecuted and the law will take its course.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, for the second time, I beg to ask the Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affairs the following Question by Private Notice. Could the Minister clarify whether or not the determination and creation of 80 new constituencies before the 2012 General Elections will take into account the 2009 census results which were nullified in eight districts in northern Kenya?
Minister for Justice and Constitutional Affairs!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I undertook to find out where the Minister was. I am told that he went to Naivasha for official duty and he is on his way back to Nairobi. I would seek the indulgence of the Chair to defer this Question to next week.
Member for Ikolomani, what is your reaction to that request?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is a fairly straightforward Question. We just want the Government to be clear. There is the possibility of a long recess and the possibility that during that long recess, the Independent Electoral and Boundaries Commission (IEBC) will make a decision on this matter; it would have been nice for the answer to this matter to be read by even the Attorney-General, whom I see here, or the Acting Deputy Leader of Government Business. Could they clarify whether they can read out the answer before I agree with them?
Fair enough; I see your concern. Assistant Minister, are you able to respond to this Question or is the Attorney-General able to respond to it? It is just a single-paragraph Question.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have just checked with the Clerks-at the-Table and they say that there is no written answer to the Question. So, it becomes very difficult, even if we were able to answer it without the actual answer from the Ministry. I assure you that Members of the Front Bench are capable of answering this Question. It is only that we do not have the written answer.
Order, Assistant Minister! I have no doubt that you have the capacity to answer, but could you just take a minute and consult with the Attorney- General because the Attorney-General may well be aware. As I see it, this is a matter which he may be conversant with. If he is not able to react immediately, then it will be fine.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, we have consulted and the Attorney- General has suggested that hon. Mutula Kilonzo should come with a comprehensive answer to this particular Question.
Very well! Member for Ikolomani!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, let me strongly say that the constituencies that are affected are in marginal and minority communities areas like Turkana and Kenyan Somali areas. Without Parliament acting, these marginalised communities might be short- changed. Three new constituencies are meant for Turkana, three in Mandera, one in Wajir East and one in Lagdera. We must, surely, find a way of ensuring that this Government, which appears to only share things to favour the two Principals, is going to be conscious of the minority and marginalised communities. More importantly, if they are going to deny these people the constituencies, we should also know where the constituencies will go, because we have cases of places in the country, which almost got constituencies but missed out because of lack of affirmative action.
Very well, Member for Ikolomani! You have made your point. I am certain that those Kenyans who reside in those areas, which you have classified as marginal, will know that they have been heard, and that Parliament is aware that they need to be attended to just like other Kenyans. So, we will defer this Question to Tuesday, next week.
Hon. Members, that brings us to the end of Question Time.
Hon. Members, we will take Ministerial Statements that may be ready for delivery first and then we will take requests.
Mr. Ojode, proceed!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, on 7th December, 2011, hon. Wamalwa rose on a point of order and sought a Ministerial Statement on the shooting of ten people in Sirisia Constituency, at a place known as Namang’ofulo. In his request, he wanted clarification on the circumstances in which the said people were shot and killed and the role of the Provincial Administration in the incident.
Finally, the hon. Member sought clarification on the actions that the Government will take to ensure the security of farmers and their property.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, on 5th December, 2011, at about 4.30, a gang of about 14 persons who were armed with machetes and clubs attacked and killed three watchmen guarding Namang’ofulo coffee factory. The deceased were later identified as Isaac Kiwa, aged 35 years; Festus Sitati, aged 45 years, and John Kiathi, aged 40 years. Members of the public responded to the distress call and managed to corner two of the suspects, who
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Assistant Minister has indicated that only one suspect has been arrested so far – he mentioned Mike June Miruye. What about those who had been mentioned as having been behind the nefarious crime that saw this gang loot and kill, including the DC, Marinyang and AP Corporal Ogutu? Why have the two not been arrested? Why are they still walking around scot-free and intimidating witnesses? Why are they still intimidating even an award winning journalist with TheStandard newspaper and KTN, Robert Wanyonyi, who has gone into hiding because he
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have a lot of information with regard to coffee theft in this constituency. I have the registration number of a vehicle which was used in the robbery, that is, KBP 227K. We are looking for that vehicle. We will arrest and apprehend whoever was using that vehicle. We will also impound the vehicle. With regard to the AP, Corporal Ogutu and the DC, we are investigating the matter and in the meantime, I think it is prudent for me to move the DC from that area, so that investigations can take place without any intimidation.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. There is a journalist who is in hiding as a result of death threats from administrative officers in this area. He is called Robert Wanyonyi. What is the Assistant Minister doing to ensure that his security is guaranteed?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is very difficult for me to say anything because I do not have any information that the security of that particular journalist is threatened. If, indeed, that is true, then he needs to report to the police so that I can take action.
Order, Member for Lari! You know how we normally conduct business under Order No.7. So, that actually rests the matter. Is there any other Statement for delivery today? Minister of State for Special Programmes!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have a Statement to give with regard to floods. It was requested by hon. Ochieng. Several parts of the country have been receiving heavy rains that have resulted in floods. The floods have caused displacements, destroyed property, damaged infrastructure and even killed 17 people. The Government, with support of other stakeholders, has spearheaded response efforts by providing relief supplies and evacuating the victims. Reports reaching the Ministry indicate that the rains have subsided in the past few days in the flood-affected areas, especially around River Nzoia, whose water level has dropped by 3.85 metres. Although the situation continues to improve, the negative effects will continue to be felt for at least three months. The infrastructure, food, water, sanitation and health sectors are the worst affected. The 17 districts that have been affected have 165,655 people affected. The damage is estimated at around Kshs10 billion, but this is not conclusive because we are still assessing the damage to the roads, houses, schools, and medical facilities. With regard to mitigation, in all these areas, we have provided food and non-food items and because I do not want to read the whole list, I would like to table the information about what we have done so that hon. Members can see what we have done.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the problem here is that some of these people now camping outside their homes have had their homes swept away by floods. Some of them, their economic activities have been interfered with; they cannot do business. This means that come next term which begins next month, they will not be able to pay school fees for their sons and daughters who will be joining secondary school. Could the Minister confirm that the Ministry will be able to support these families in terms of paying school fees for their children and also put up houses for them, so that they can leave the schools where they are residing now and go back to their homes?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I did not hear the Minister emphasize much on the dykes with regard to the Budalangi area. The Government had put up dykes and there was a request for maintenance of these dykes. I do not know what the Government is doing about the dykes in Budalangi and also the children and women who are affected. When we visited Budalangi they were in bad state. The food being supplied was not conducive for little children. They needed Unimix or something softer than just the maize and beans being supplied. Is there some special attention to the children in the affected areas?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to thank the Minister. At least, she has been going round to see for herself what we, as Members of Parliament have been complaining about. But last year, the Ministry of State for Special Programmes had mitigation measures even before the floods happened. District Commissioners and District Officers had stocks waiting to see if there would be some people who would be displaced so that they could assist them. But this time round, it seems like the Ministry is just reacting to whatever has happened. Now that the Minister says over 20,000 people were affected in Tana River District and that the allocation they have given is just a meager 500 bags of rice and 200 bags of beans respectively, could she think of increasing this quantum to a higher level
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Minister has just informed the House that 17 Kenyans perished through the floods. Could she inform the House what humanitarian assistance is being extended to the affected families?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to request the Minister while she is looking at the areas that have been affected by floods to look at Usonga and Alego. There are between 3,000 and 4,000 families in Usonga and Alego that have been affected. So, if there is any move by the Government to assist flood vicitims, let it be extended to those areas.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Minister has visited quite a number of areas, including Budalangi. Could she confirm when she will visit Nyatike to assess the situation on the ground?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to join my colleagues in asking the Minister to kindly look into the perennial problem of flooding in a more serious sense. Could she assure this House that the Government will put more dykes to mitigate the floods that occur year in, year out, in these areas? It is a pity that these people construct houses every year and they are swept away. I believe she will be visiting Karachuonyo where over 9,000 families were affected.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, first of all, in response to Mr. Ochieng, we are discussing with the Ministry of Education because even the schools have been destroyed. Once we arrive at a consensus on the kind of assistance that we should give, we will go ahead and do that. On the issue of dykes, that is a long term plan and they are being done. We also want assistance from Members of Parliament because in some cases where the Ministry of Water and Irrigation has wanted to do dams there has been resistance on the ground. So, we want to ask you to help us, so that we can educate our people that dams are being done for their own good. I would also want to inform hon. Members that the rains that came were actually unprecedented. So, even the stock that we had was not enough and most of the roads have been swept away. However, we are increasing the amounts between now and the end of the week. So, that is being taken care of. On the issue of Nyatike, Karachuonyo and South Nyanza, I hope I will be visiting you in the course of next week, so that we can assess the situation and so that we can give you whatever assistance that is needed. On Budalangi, the western Kenya project is now back on course. We will rehabilitate the dykes, so that we do not have this issue of water causing havoc again.
A further Statement from the Ministry of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have two Statements to make. One Statement is with regard to Christmas and New Year celebrations.
Order, Assistant Minister! We have to ascertain if there are any Members who want clarifications from your Statement. Are there any Members who may be interested in clarifications in that Statement? None. Assistant Minister, you may proceed to the next one.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the other Statement is on the clash of ODM supporters at Rongo. On 11th December, 2011, it was reported by members of the public that at about 4.30 p.m., at Kitere area about five kilometers south of the Kamagambo Police Station, vide OB. No.21 of the same date, the two ODM Party rival groups one allied to hon. Dalmas Otieno; the Minister of State for Public Service and another allied to the former Member of Parliament, Mr. Ochilo-Ayacko, clashed. Police, under the command of Migori OCPD, Mr. Fredrick Lai, rushed to the scene and on arrival found three dead bodies lying on the road which were later identified as Paul Otieno, Yabo Okuda and Lucas Omondi. Lucas Opara succumbed to injuries while in hospital. One person, Maurice Onjiko is still in hospital up to now. Mr. Speaker, Sir, following the incident, police commenced investigations and four suspects namely; Mark Philip, Peter Onyango Okeyo, Jared Otieno Aruma and Albert Ogwaye Opondo were arrested and charged vide Kamagambo Police Station Criminal No.662/168/11 and High Court File No.113/11. One more suspect Naphtali Omollo Ogonde was tracked and arrested in Lang’ata Police Station area in Nairobi and will be soon transferred to Migori to be charged together with the others. The suspect is alleged to have been the financier and had ferried people to the area of the incident. Mr. Speaker, Sir, in mitigation the Government has put in place adequate security measures to forestall attacks on politicians and their supporters while campaigning. Similarly, the police have put in place adequate security plans in preparation for next year’s general elections. However, for the police to adequately cover such political campaigns, the conveners are advised to notify the local police stations in areas they intend to visit in time to enable proper and adequate security preparations to be put in place to avoid similar incidents in future. I came up with this Statement because I had been informed by Mr. Kapondi who is the Chairman of the Committee in charge of security that he will ask me to respond to the clashes which happened in Rongo. Thank you.
Members interested in clarifications? Yes, Chief Whip, Member for Gem.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, what happened in Rongo cannot be taken lightly. Arising from what happened four years ago in this country because of politics, this Parliament must condemn in the strongest terms possible the issue of political violence. The Assistant Minister has said that the police is putting measures to stop political thuggery as we approach the general election next year. What measures is the Assistant Minister and the Ministry taking to educate members on the sections of the Political Parties Act that do not allow any kind of violence whatsoever in any kind of politicking? People should know that if you are walking around with youths who have the potential of killing or harming anybody, you will be personally liable and you will also be disqualified from participating in elections.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I also want to take this chance to condemn what happened in Rongo and extend the same to what happened in Bomet during the Jamuhuri Day Celebrations. I would like to know what the Assistant Minister is going to do with some politicians who would want to cause chaos particularly during public holidays like what happened in Bomet. I hope the Assistant Minister is aware.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. It is quite clear from the Assistant Minister’s Statement what happened in Rongo but the Member of Parliament has talked about something happening in Bomet. We do not know what it is. Would I be in order if I requested him to substantiate so that the House can know what happened in Bomet?
Member for Konoin, that is a legitimate challenge, substantiate.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, during the Jamhuri Day Celebrations in Bomet which falls under Bomet District, towards the end of the celebrations one of the politicians from the neighbouring districts came with a group singing songs of a political party and disrupted a public function that was going on. In the process, there was stone throwing and one of our colleagues was actually chased away from that function and he had to hide in one of the police stations. So, it is actually something which is very similar to what happened in Rongo. I really want to know what the Assistant Minister is going to do to ensure that such actions do not happen particularly when we have public holidays like those.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, in the Assistant Minister’s Statement, he stated that one group belonged to Dalmas Otieno; the Minister of State for Public Service and the other one was allied to Mr. Ochilo-Ayacko. Could he tell this House if he has taken statements from both Mr. Dalmas Otieno and Ochilo-Ayacko and what steps he is taking against them?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, let me also take this opportunity to condemn the incident which happened in Rongo which all of us agree painted a very bad picture of us as a county and to the people from that region. The clarification I would like to get from the Assistant Minister is that if a politician is planning to carry out political activity in an area like opening party offices and another politician is planning to disrupt it, we should be having state machinery through intelligence to know well in advance that there is likely to be violence. What is the Government going to do to ensure that the intelligence network performs its function of pre-empting these activities before they happen so that we stop them from happening instead of coming to investigate an incident once it has occurred?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would also wish to take this opportunity to condemn in the very strongest terms the culture of political violence which appears to be taking some kind of pattern. It appears that there are sacred cows in this case and those who have been apprehended are basically small people. Could the Assistant Minister confirm to the House that the sacred cows who have not been arrested in this case are going to be arrested? Unless these big shots are apprehended, we are going into an election year and we shall be giving them the leeway to proceed to use the small people to perpetuate the culture of political violence. Assistant Minister, please, clarify that.
Mr. Assistant Minister, you may now make your response. I am sorry we cannot accommodate afterthoughts.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have to respond as follows:- Hon. Jakoyo Midiwo asked whether there is any civic education which we are offering. Yes, it is not just the police fraternity which is offering civic education on the need to uphold law and order but there are a number of Non-Governmental Organizations and Community-based Organizations which are also doing the same. The Political Parties Act is very clear on the violence issue. We will continue and I want to plead with my colleagues in this House that they should preach peace and ask their constituents to abide by law and order at all times. Dr. Kones asked about the clashes during Jamhuri Day. Yes, we are investigating this issue. We just got information yesterday. We are investigating and definitely we will take action against whoever is involved. The Member for Subukia asked whether we have taken statements from the two politicians. If you remember what I said, I said that the supporters allied to one politician caused problems. I did not say that it is the two politicians who created chaos. However, investigations are going on and if there is need for a statement from either of them, we will definitely get statements from the two politicians. Hon. Mbadi has asked why we cannot preempt chaos before they happen. That is what we always preach about. When we get intelligence information, we normally stop rallies or any gathering, be it one of a church or of a national day like Jamhuri. We normally stop them even at the 11th hour although some of our politicians argue negatively on why we should stop the rallies after they have invested heavily on them. Hon. Kapondi asked whether we are sparing some people or sacred cows. I want to say in this House that we will never spare anybody irrespective of his or her position. Whether you are a Minister or who in this Government, as long as your people and yourself cause chaos, we will arrest you and later on you will tell us your position after which we will release you according to the rule of law. Mr. Speaker Sir, that is our stand.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for the Assistant Minister to mislead this House that they will arrest whoever whenever a situation of that kind arises, and yet two weeks ago in Kisumu, I was being attacked by the supporters of my opponent, including a councillor who is known? We reported the case to Kisumu Police Station and I called the Commissioner of Police who promised to come back to me on the same day but up to today, he has never come back to me.
Nobody has ever been arrested and yet those people are known. Is it in order for the Assistant Minister to mislead the House?
Mr. Assistant Minister, that is a genuine challenge. You have been given intelligence and a report and according to the Member for Nyakatch, you have done nothing.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is not a question of us doing nothing. When I received the information that he had reported the matter, I directed the Director of CID to go ahead, look for those people and arrest them. To date, those people are hiding.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. In fact, my point of order is precisely on the same thing only that it is a different version. It is in public domain that in the incident that took place in Bomet, there were two sitting Members of Parliament, each in charge of a gang. These youths clashed and resulted in the incident that Dr. Kones has said. If, indeed, the Assistant Minister is proactive, what has he done about the two sitting Members of Parliament, one of them who is a Minister?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have said here and I want to be on record that we will arrest those who cause chaos. We will arrest those who have political goons and those who hire goons irrespective of their status in this country. The law is very clear. You are not supposed to hire goons to attack your opponent. You are not supposed to cause chaos anywhere anytime. I also want to encourage my colleagues that if there is any such thing, please, call me, call the Police Commissioner, call the substantive Minister or call anybody within the Office of the President and we will take action straightaway. I also want you to note that you might also be involved if your own youths are causing chaos. I will arrest you without any hesitation.
Order! Order, hon. Members! The matter must now rest there with the assurance from the Assistant Minister. Mr. Assistant Minister, you have said that to the House in the presence of all these Members of Parliament. You have also said that to the country and we are now waiting for action.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. May I make the following Statement with regard to the business for next week? As we come to the close of this year, let me take this opportunity to applaud the good work and the zeal demonstrated by hon. Members both at the House Plenary as well as at the Committees of this House. In particular, we have not only been able to meet deadlines of key constitutional implementation Bills but also to dispense with other key Bills by Private Members and on the part of the Government. Members will notice that on the Order Paper today, we have listed a Motion for Adjournment which Members will have an opportunity to debate. In the event that this House does not proceed on recess, which is against my expectation, we will consider the following business for next week. The House will consider at the Committee Stage the Public Service Superannuation Scheme Bill, Bill No.24 of 2011 and the Kenya School of Government Bill, Bill No.30 of 2011. The House will also consider the Committee Reports and
Mr. Speaker, Sir, according to Articles 22, 26 and 229 of our Constitution, within six months after the end of each financial year, all accounts of Government and State organs are supposed to be audited by the Auditor-General. Article 226(4) specifically provides that the accounts of the Auditor-General shall be audited and reported on by a professionally qualified accountant appointed by the National Assembly. Whereas we know that the Auditor–General is currently auditing the other accounts of State organs and the Government, on the Accounts of the Office of the Auditor-General, this Parliament has not initiated the procedure of appointing such a professionally competent accountant so that this provision of audit within six months is complied with. Could the Leader of Government business confirm to us if we go on Recess this requirement of the Constitution will be met so that the Office of the Controller and auditor General will be audited in accordance with the law?
Leader of Government business, you want to respond to that?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I see the learned Attorney General is actually in the House and I would like to refer this matter to him. In fact, for reasons that I will give a little later, it may very well be, that we want to seek adjournment, not today, but next week.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Leader of Government business has indicated and actually it appears on the Order Paper that we are likely to proceed on Recess, if this House approves.
He did commend the House because of the fact that we have managed to meet the deadlines for Constitutional Bills. It is also obvious from the Constitution that there are some legislations on the land chapter, that is Article 68, Devolved Government, the whole of Chapter 11, and also the removal of County Governor, those legislations have 18 months the deadline which is supposed to be 27th of February, 2012. Could we get an indication and an assurance from the Leader of Government business that this House will be meeting in good time to pass these legislations to avoid the last minute rush that we saw last time?
Leader of Government business, maybe, you just want to keep a note on that one. I can see from the demeanour of the Member for Bura that he is likely to raise a matter on a point of order that is aligned to what the Member for Gwassi has just raised. You may proceed, Member for Bura.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, mine is just to complement the point of order raised by hon. Mbadi, and to raise one more issue that has to do with in the unlikely event--- Because some of these Bills which are supposed to be enacted to give effect to the legislative parts of the Constitution, many a times, we are rushed as a Parliament to the effect that we are told we have passed some laws which clash with each other. Just to ask,
Very well! Leader of Government business.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to give that assurance. First, the hon. Member for Gwassi is quite right. There is quite a bit that we have to do to beat the constitutional deadline. He did refer to the deadline of 27th of February, 2012. It is anticipated that before the 27th the House will then meet to be able to specifically comply with the requirements of the Constitution with regard to that deadline. I want to give assurance to the Member for Bura that, indeed, we will be thorough. We are a very serious Government. Therefore, we will be prepared. That is the assurance.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I rise to seek a Ministerial Statement from the Minister for Water and Irrigation. This statement is in relation to the disconnection of electricity to Litein Water Supply.
In the Minister’s statement, I would like her to explain why Lake Victoria South Water Services Board failed to pay up to Kshs8 million to the Kenya Power Company for supply of water to Litein, and why the Board has failed to sign an agreement with Tililbey Water Company to manage the water supply. I would also like to know from the Minister the reason why, for the last two months, the staff and employees of the Board of Litein Water Board Services have not been paid their salaries. Why the Ministry has not allocated money to get water from upstream that is Kipsanoi River by gravity instead of pumping it using electricity.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, finally, I would like to know from the Minister, when the money owed to KPLC shall be paid, so that power could be reconnected, and water supply resumes.
Minister for Water and Irrigation! This disconnection of water, yes, Member for Embakasi. You are the Assistant Minister, so you speak as the Minister.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the statement will be ready by Tuesday, next week.
Very well! You will deliver it on Tuesday, next week.
Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Leader of Government business, His Excellency the Vice-President has referred my issue to the able Attorney-General, who is present in the House.
Order! Order! The Attorney General!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, may I have time to look into that matter. It requires a reasoned opinion.
Yes, indeed, you are entitled to have time.
What is it, Member for Kisumu Town East!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to request for a Ministerial Statement from the Minister for Lands relating to the matter of ownership of land in view of the evictions in Syokimau and other areas. In his statement, he should indicate when the following Bills will be introduced to the House as there was a commitment that they be introduced within 15 months of the promulgation of the Constitution. We have only one and half months left; the National Land Commission Bill, which I understand, has been ready since August, Eviction and Resettlement Bill, which I again understand, is ready. The Land Registration Bill, the Community Lands Bill, and the Land Bill. I hope that these will be ready within the 15 months required.
Who would deal with this, Leader of Government business, it looks like your baby?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, we do take note, we will deal with it.
Very well. Would you be able to give an indication to the House, sometimes, maybe next week. Very well! Next week.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I had requested for a Ministerial Statement from the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance on the intention of the Barclays Bank of Kenya to transfer its banking office operations to India. This statement was supposed to have been delivered today.
Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance, when will that statement be available? Leader of Government business?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, could we again put it to next week, because the Deputy Prime Minister and
Leader of Government business, I will put that off to Tuesday, next week. Hon. Members are aware that this is a very important matter for the country. Barclays Bank is a major investment here and we need to know the direction clearly.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I had sought a Ministerial Statement from the Attorney-General which he promised to give I in think two weeks ago. Last Tuesday I reminded him, but he was not in the House. Hon. Ojode promised to relay the information and it was promised that the Statement will be made today. That Statement was with regard to the budgeting process and we are just in another circle. I can see the Attorney-General is seated in the House today and is attentive. Could he supply my Statement?
Mr. Attorney-General, if you recollect that, would you like to give an indication?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, unfortunately, that particular information was not relayed to me. However, I would like to assure the hon. Member that as late as this morning I was talking with my officers about our comprehensive Statement on that. It is almost ready and I could bring it to the House next Tuesday.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Four months ago I rose in this House and sought a Ministerial Statement from the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security in connection with errors of commission and omission at the Government Printer. The undertaking was that the Statement would be delivered in two weeks and it is now months. Could I seek the guidance of the Chair?
Yes, Mr. Assistant Minister, Ministry of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I did promise this House that I will be issuing that Statement. In fact, I should have done it long time ago, but because you have realized that I have very many Ministerial Statements to make, majority of which border on security, I had to give the ones on security first in order to save lives. I can give this Statement on Thursday, next week if we do not go on recess.
Very well! Since I have directed that several Statements be issued on Tuesday, this will have to be issued on Wednesday, next week.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I had requested the Chair to allow me to issue it on Thursday because I will be out of the country until that time.
Very well! Then I direct that the Statement be given on Thursday, next week at 2.30 p.m.!
Hon. Members, that brings us to the end of Order No.7!
Hon. Members, before we move on to Orders Nos.8, 9, 10 and subsequently Order No.11, I wish to make the following Communication with respect to Orders Nos.9 and 10. On Order No.9(i), the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance has indicated to me that he has as yet to work on the many amendments that have been received with respect to this Bill. As a matter of fact, up until ten minutes before the House commenced this Sitting, we received a further set of amendments. It is, therefore, expedient and makes sense that we allow the Minister time to acquaint himself with those amendments so that we have his input and I can also, as the Speaker, process approval or otherwise of those amendments. I also wish to inform the House that we have received further communication from some of the stakeholders indicating that they would like to be heard and are taking issue with some of the amendments. If you take into account the provisions of the Constitution as it stands today, those stakeholders must be accorded an opportunity to be heard. So, under those circumstances, I will defer Order No.9(i) to such time that we have an indication from the Minister and the relevant Parliamentary Committee that they are ready to transact business at Order No.9(i).
Hon. Members, with respect to the business at Paragraph (ii), I will also defer that business until such time that the sponsor of the Bill indicates to the Speaker that he is ready to prosecute the Bill through the House. I will defer that infinitely because I have no indication at all from the hon. Member as to when he will be ready.
Hon. Members, with respect to business at Order No.10, I did receive a draft amendment or proposed amendment to that Motion from the Member for
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. My point of order is with regard to your first Communication on the withdrawal of the Finance Bill. I have two issues to raise on that. The first one is that we need to pass this Bill by 31st of this month. Assuming that the Adjournment Motion succeeds then obviously, we will not need the legal requirement of passing the Finance Bill. However, my second fundamental issue is with regard to the Executive’s interference with the functions of Parliament. I have with me a letter---
Order, hon. Members! Let us hear the hon. Member for Gwassi.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, this letter is from the Office of the President, Permanent Secretary, Secretary to the Cabinet and Head of Public Service. It is copied to the Attorney-General, the Permanent Secretary in the Office of the Prime Minister; the Permanent Secretary, Office of the Vice-President and Ministry of Home Affairs and also to the Permanent Secretary, Office of the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance. It is also copied to all Ministers and Assistant Ministers. I just want to highlight one paragraph which I find offensive to this House. It says:- “The Cabinet noted the intentions of some Members of Parliament to interfere with the Finance Bill, 2011/2012 which would be suicidal for it will raise a public outcry, lead to hyper inflation and adversely affect the ongoing negotiations with the International Monetary Fund (IMF). The Cabinet considered these issues and directed the Office of the Prime Minister and the Office of the Vice-President and Ministry of Home Affairs as Leader of Government Business to petition the Speaker of the National
Order, hon. Members! On this matter, really, you must hold your emotions. I do not want it to escalate unnecessarily. I would like, first, to look at the letter.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Order, the Member for Bura! Hon. Members, I would like to take the reaction of the Leader of Government Business alone on this matter and then give directions.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Order, the Member for Bura! Not on this one!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, deliberations by the Cabinet are by their very nature secret and I would like to very strongly appeal to this House not to move in that direction. I want to agree with the Chair that we exercise moderation here. This is a copy of a letter and I am sure it would have been typed “secret”. Therefore, I want to suggest that we do not engage or address ourselves to the contents of this letter.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Order, the Member for Vihiga!
Order, hon. Members! I have already appealed for restrain
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I just have one issue. Kindly- --
Order, Chief Whip! On this one, restrain yourself. I will give directions as may be necessary on this letter on Tuesday.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. It is on a different subject.
Order, the Member for Bura! Not on this subject. I have to give directions on the matter raised by the Member for Gwassi with respect to the passage of
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Clearly, in the light of what you have just elaborated and in view of the gravity of this matter with regard to the need for the House to enact the Finance Bill, I propose to withdraw consideration of Order No.8 and also the Motion of Adjournment because if we were to adjourn without passing the Finance Bill, the consequences as you have rightly put it would be dire. I gather that the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance would have been using the Provisional Collection Order (PCO) and if by 31st December, 2011, this legislation is not in place then one of the things that the Treasury must do is to refund all the taxes that would have been illegally levied. I think the consequences to this nation and to what we stand for would have been dealt a grave blow. Therefore, I want to seek the Chair’s indulgence and, indeed, the indulgence of the House that I withdraw Order No.8 as well the Motion of Adjournment.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I am a Member of the House Business Committee that decided to put on the Order Paper the Motion of Adjournment. It is true that the Leader of Government Business is the one to move it but this amounts to a threat to this House. The reason why the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance is not engaging this House--- In fact, the Motion is being withdrawn because of
Order, Chief Whip! I think you have done as much as you ought to do but you are now going overboard. You do not have to go beyond the first part because the Motion is not before the House.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Yes, the Member for Bura, and note that you must restrain yourself!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to go by your guidance and hope that you will be restraining that. I think I stood up on this issue of withdrawal of the Finance Bill; if we do not pass it by 31st of December, the consequences you have cited will be great.
Order! Order, hon. Member for Bura! Order! Just before you proceed, I am not going to be unfair to you; I can see you are being very apprehensive.
But you have used a statement which is not valid, that is the matter of the withdrawal of the Finance Bill. That has not transpired; the Finance Bill has not been withdrawn. You may then proceed after correcting that part.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I stand guided on the Finance Bill. The reason hon. Members of Parliament usually go for recess is that they use this time to connect with the constituents, which they cannot do during the normal working of Parliament. Some of us who come from far need all the time to be with our constituents.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the consequences of the withdrawal of the Motion by the Minister for Finance would have ripple effects---
Order! Order, hon. Member for Bura! Just be accurate; I have no quarrel with you! The Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance has not withdrawn the Bill. I have deferred it.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I stand guided.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the deferment of the Bill will have a ripple effect where we, hon. Members of Parliament, may be convinced that it would not be timely for us to go for recess. We will be in a catch 22 situation; it will have the effect of this Parliament going on recess and being unable to meet the deadline, or having to stay until the Minister moves this Bill for this Parliament to pass it.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is a situation where now the Executive is hoodwinking us and trying to give us the timetable for this House. Many times we have wanted to delink ourselves from the Executive. As a Parliament, we want to legislate for our own calendar, so that we know when to go home and when to come back to legislate. But it seems that the Executive, through some – I do not want to use some uncouth words like mischievous – some other avenues tries to draw a calendar for this Assembly, and tries to keep us here longer here than we ought to. I would want to request that you find the Executive in contempt of this Parliament by not trying to abide--- They had all the time to prepare this Finance Bill. For them to, again, say that there is a last minute surprise and they want to consider some of the amendments is not being fair to this House.
Very well, hon. Member for Bura; you have made your point. Now that we are tending towards a possible sitting next week, those sentiments will be brought before the House Business Committee (HBC), and they will be directed not to interfere unnecessarily with the calendar of Parliament.
This House, in its entirety, is represented in the HBC.
Order, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance! You need not speak to this matter. I do not think it will be healthy for you, because you have not followed what has transpired.
Order, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance! You will get into a situation that may not be very easy for you to handle.
I want to direct, having heard the Leader of Government Business, that the business at Order No. 8 and the last Motion, which is the Motion for adjournment at Page 3154--- Note, hon. Members, that a Motion for adjournment is dilatory business; it does
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move:-
THAT, this House adopts the report of the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs on the rejection of the proposed nominees to the positions of the Chairperson and Members of the Ethics and Anti-Corruption Commission laid on the Table of the House on Wednesday 14th December, 2011.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, on 1st December, this year, you informed the House that his Excellency the President had, after consultations with the Right Hon. Prime Minister, nominated the following persons to be considered for appointment as Chairperson and Members of the Ethics and Anti-Corruption Commission (EACC) by the National Assembly, pursuant to Provisions of Section 6 (6) of the Ethics and Anti-Corruption Commission Act, No. 22 of 2011. One, Mr. Mumo Matemu, Chairperson; second, Prof. Jane Kerubo Onsongo, member and, third; Mrs. Irene Cheptoo Keino, Member. You directed the names and curriculum vitae of the nominees to be referred to the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs for consideration prior to the approval of the House, and directed the Committee to deliberate on the nominees and table its report before the House.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Committee held a meeting with each of the nominees on 14th December, starting at 9.30 a.m. The nominees made submissions on why they should be appointed to serve in the Ethics and Anti-Corruption Commission.
The background to this matter is that the Ethics and Anti-Corruption Commission is established under Article 79 of the Constitution and the Ethics and Anti-Corruption Commission Act, No. 22 of 2011. Article 79 of the Constitution provides that:-
“Parliament shall enact legislation to establish an independent ethics and anti-corruption commission, which shall be and have the status and powers of a commission under Chapter Fifteen, for purposes of ensuring compliance with, and enforcement of, the provisions of this Chapter.”
Mr. Speaker, Sir, Section 3 of the Ethics and Anti-Corruption Commission Act, No. 22 of 2011 provides for the establishment and membership of the Commission. Section 4 thereof provides, inter alia, that the Commission shall consist of a Chairperson and two other members appointed in accordance with the provisions of this Act.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I stand to second the Motion.
We were privileged to be part of an interview panel yesterday. As you know, we have not met for a good nine months or so. We did our job. We were all very impressed by the qualifications of the nominees. They struck us as career people. They struck us as decent Kenyans. They struck us as people who can do a good job in most places. On that, we were unanimous. We were equally unanimous that something was lacking. The only word we could get for that was “passion”. Having asked the question: “How do you define ‘passion?” I was asking an hon. Member here: “What was it that the country found in Dr. Willy Mutunga to be Chief Justice?” Whatever that thing is, that is what we saw lacking in these nominees. Call it credentials. Call it an ideological position. Whatever that thing is, that was what we felt was lacking in these candidates.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is not an easy position to take because we were taking a position on people who have gone through some thorough vetting but we are the Committee. Mind you, we have not found ourselves agreeing on a lot of things. So, it struck me as quite interesting that on this aspect, we actually---
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is the hon. Member in order to mislead this House that “passion” was one of the qualifications laid down either in the Constitution or in the Act itself? It is not. The qualifications are given in the Act. I think the hon. Member is confusing passion with a love affair. This is not a love affair. This is an engagement. You have passion in a love fair.
Yes, hon. Mutava Musyimi.
Do I proceed, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir?
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Could you deal with the issue of “passion” first?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, let me continue with my line of argument.
Order, hon. Musyimi! Before you proceed, clarify the issue raised by hon. Githae.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, before he even started speaking, people were making noise. So, could he, kindly, repeat himself?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I will repeat, with pleasure.
Is the hon. Member in order to mislead this House by suggesting that “passion” was one of the qualifications laid down in the Constitution or in the Act of Parliament? As far as I know, “passion” is what you have when you are in a love affair. This is an engagement in a public office.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Minister has completely misheard me and he is now, deliberately, misrepresenting me. I did not say that “passion” was a qualification. I said that, the thing the country found in the Chief Justice, whatever you call it, is what we saw lacking. In my humble submission, we saw people who were strong from the standpoint of institutional capacity, but they lack ideological commitment with respect to the fight against corruption. I was privileged to be the first Chairperson of the National Anti- Corruption Steering Campaign Committee. It is now headed by Bishop Wabukhala. One was able to ask a number of questions about this and other commitments of this particular Commission. One of them is, of course, public education. We were not persuaded, given the huge difficulties the country is in. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, if we are looking for people who are going to move the horizons, drive the agenda through in the country, step up to another level, we did not feel that these nominees had the capacity to help the country. What we can do is to submit our Report for the good of the country. With those remarks, I beg to second.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to oppose the Motion. For the three years I have been in Parliament, I have witnessed Parliamentary Committees approve or reject names of nominees. At no time have we ever approved names of nominees on the basis that somebody has passion. At no time have we ever rejected a name of a nominee on the basis of somebody lacking passion. This is the first time I am hearing words like “passion” being used in rejecting names of nominees to public office. This is the first time I am hearing words like “could not demonstrate sufficient interest” yet a person has applied for the job.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I stand to strongly oppose this Motion. This Motion is dangerous. The Committee has introduced something which hitherto has been unknown as far as qualifications are concerned. All the people we have approved have never said that they had passion or they lacked it. This is the first time we are hearing of passion. Passion is not permanent. In 2002, a Member of this House was being considered as a compromise candidate because he had passion for politics and good governance. People are now asking, “Where is that passion?” So, it is dangerous. We are introducing something that is very dangerous. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am also shocked by this Committee. It had been hitherto inactive and in the first job they have been given they have dropped a bombshell in this House. People are now wondering whether it would have been better when the Committee was inactive rather than when we have just struggled so much to make it active and then it goes against the---
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. As much as my friend wants to be very passionate, is he not, in fact, imputing improper motives on the Members of that Committee by suggesting that the Committee was moribund or dysfunctional because, perhaps, they are very bad Members? Is that not the effect of what he is saying, that it would be better if they were, maybe, not even in the House? Surely, he cannot be allowed to proceed that way as much as he may want to push his case.
Hon. Githae, what did you mean?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, that is far from the truth of what I wanted to say, and I
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I rise to seek your direction on the line taken by the Minister. Some of us have gone through so much pain to put this Committee back on track; I think it is wrong to bash it. We have confidence in this Committee. I was going even to support the Motion because Mr. Mumo is my friend, but if the Committee is to be bashed, I think some of us will then take a different line of argument. I do not think it is fair to the Committee.
Order, Mr. Midiwo! You stood on a point of order. What is your point of order?
Is it in order to bash the Committee as opposed to talking about the substance of the Report?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am not bashing the Committee. I am only showing the errors that the Committee may have committed. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, we need the Ethics and Anti-Corruption Commission as a matter of urgency. When you look at the CVs of these people the President and the Prime Minister recommended, you will realize that they are qualified and learned. Some of them are professors. Even more, they have been awarded honours by the Head of State. Mr. Mumo was awarded EBS by the Head of State. He was able to collect a lot of taxes when he was at the KRA. The tax collection of KRA has increased from Kshs200 billion to Kshs600 billion. This is as a result of joint efforts by the Commissioner General and his Commissioners. Surely, a person has been able to collect for this country Kshs600 billion and you say that he has no passion! A person has risen at the KRA from a Management Trainee to a Commissioner and you say that he has no passion, drive and interest in a job? Surely, something is definitely wrong. Lastly, Mr. Mumo is a sober man. I know him. He was my classmate. I went to school with him. I can assure you hon. Members that you will not go wrong in the appointment of these people. They are competent and capable. We know them.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to oppose.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I stand to support the Motion.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, first let me declare my interest. I want to say that the person who is proposed to be the chairman, Mr. Matemu Mumo was my classmate. So, that is a personal interest in the matter. The second interest in the matter is that when he retired from KRA recently, I gave him a job to do for my Ministry. I gave him work to do research and come up with two Bills that we brought to this House to give reforms in the Immigration Department in line with the Constitution. He delivered
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Proceed, Mr. Kajwang.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, because I have not done anything out of order. Let me now come to the debate. There was a very good debater in this House. He has since left us; he was called hon. Odongo Omamo. Hon. Omamo was good in delivery even in this House or outside. At one time, he was accused of disloyalty to KANU for which he worked for very hard. He asked: “But how have you shown that I am disloyal?” He was told: We looked at your heart and we think you are not very loyal at heart. So, hon. Omamo at one time got upset and said: Is there a heart-o-meter in KANU to measure my loyalty? From that date, nobody ever touched Omamo on the question of his loyalty. He would have said barometer which we always know, but he chose the word “heart-o-meter”. This word has been brought here today; “passion” for the job. There is no “passion-o-meter” with which we can measure how somebody is passionate about his job.
This is because it is something which is fluid; something you cannot hold and say; “now this is called passion”. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, when I was a student at the University of Nairobi, there were two very serious political science lecturers. One of them is a Member of this House called Prof. Anyang’-Nyong’o and the other one has since left us; he was called Mukaru Ng’ang’a. they were talking about something called the Murang’a peasantry. After Mukaru Ng’ang’a explained - because he came from Murang’a - what the Murang’a peasantry is, Anyang’-Nyong’o who was then responding said: “Now, you do not see a fisherman standing at the lake and you see he is happy and you think that he is happy because the boat which is coming in is carrying fish. He might as well be very happy because the sun is rising. So, Mr. Mukaru Ng’ang’a, can you arrest the Murang’a peasantry and bring it here and say; now, this is the Murang’a peasantry?” I want to ask the Committee to arrest this thing called passion and bring it here and say; now, this is passion. There was a Committee that was, first of all, appointed in also a very laborious way. That committee worked diligently through many applications. If there was something called passion, I am sure that Committee would have dealt with it. This is because they were also looking for somebody, probably, with that passion. But after checking through all those applications they came up with---
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Proceed, Mr. Kajwang.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, after they have worked so hard and come up with some three names of persons they consider to be the best in this republic, at least, for those who applied, there could be many other good Kenyans who did not apply. There could be many Kenyans who feared to go through that rigorous---
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir! And no amount of intimidation including from the Leader of Government Business---
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, there is somebody who is heckling in this House. This House is a House of gentlemen; it is not a House of hecklers.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir! This is a House of gentlemen and not hecklers! However, passionate you feel about this, you must give me time to be heard!
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is the Minister in order to say that Members are heckling in this House? There are no hecklers in this House.
Minister, Members do not heckle! Could you clarify that?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not know the language. However, as a matter of fact, when I was speaking, and you had not given him a chance, he was making serious noise.
Order, Minister! Can you withdraw that remark and then proceed?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, if it was not heckling, then it was very serious noise. However, I withdraw the word heckling and replace it with making noise.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. First of all, is it really in order for the Leader of Government Business to try to intimidate me not to rise on a point of order? With regard to personal interest, is it not in order for all of us in this House, who wish to speak on this matter, to declare, for example, if we have outstanding corruption cases, which five people are expected to adjudicate on? How can we be sitting here and contributing to this Motion? Is that not a very serious conflict of interest?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, on a similar point of order. Is it in order for the Minister not to declare his full interest in this matter? He has said that the nominee is working in a task force in his office---
He finished! He finished!
He may have finished but allow me to finish also. Can the Minister inform this House whether the file that was before the former Kenya Anti-Corruption Commission relating to him has been concluded, so that we can listen to him in sobriety and how it was handled?
First and foremost, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, you should not just
You are a bishop!
I am not quite a bishop, but, at least, I have no corruption cases. You know you do not just disturb somebody who is on his feet because you do not want to hear what he is saying. This is a very bad culture, which Members must learn to avoid. There is no such thing and I want to say the following: The people who did these interviews, we did not know them; they applied, they were appointed by some appointing authority and they did their job for a long time. There were many applications and there are many Kenyans who may not have applied. They may be good, but they did not apply. They included the former director. He did not apply but he was qualified to apply. So, we cannot then say that we did not get the best people. These are the best of the people who applied. You see this idea---
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is the Minister in order to say that these were the best of the people who applied when the first person in that list was left out? That was the best of the people who applied.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not know about that because it does not appear in the Report. What I know is in this Report is passion, which cannot be measured. The Report also talks about sufficient interest in fighting corruption. I do not know how you measure that sufficient interest but it does not matter. All these nominees had had excellent careers and have excellent academic qualifications, but lacked passion. Therefore, this thing is about passion and sufficient interest, both of which cannot be measured. At least, we are not being told how they were measured by this Committee. This Committee must bring to this House serious matters that can be discussed. If you have an issue, just say, “So-and-so while doing this job, committed this crime and he has not disclosed it”. We can deal with that. You do not come here and give us bombastic words like “passion”, which cannot be measured. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I support this Committee.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I forgot. I oppose.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to oppose this Motion. I reckon that the first thing is that these names were forwarded by the President to this House after short listing was done by a competent body. When I see the recommendations which have been brought by this Committee, especially number one, which says that the nominees lacked passion, initiative and drive to lead the fight against corruption in this country. I look at the minutes of this Committee and with reference to the first nominee; Mr. Mumo Matemu, there is absolutely nowhere in the minutes where it says that Mr. Matemu lacks passion, initiative and drive to lead the fight against corruption. In essence, to me, it looks like whatever was deliberated on in the Committee, whose minutes we have, is actually not what is reflected in the recommendations of the Committee.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, thank you for this opportunity to contribute to this Motion.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Order, Mr. Bahari! Minister, please, proceed!
Thank you for this opportunity to contribute to this particular Motion. I would like, first and foremost, to congratulate the Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs for the speed at which they have been working since they were reconstituted. It shows that we have missed a lot of things that would have happened earlier had this Committee been in place. I want to congratulate them for that. However, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the contents of this particular Report is not what I can support. It is very clear even when you go through the Report on every nominee that there is basically nothing but praise of the qualifications of all the people they interviewed. There is nowhere they have cited a single issue that questions the integrity of the persons. There is nowhere they have questioned the ability of the persons. There is nowhere they have questioned the commitment of these particular individuals. The only thing it says is that they lack passion. Passion can only be determined once somebody has been given a job to do and the results are out. That is the only time when one can demonstrate passion. Interest was demonstrated when they applied for the job. If they had no interest, they would never have applied for these jobs. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, my good friend, hon. Abdikadir, mentioned something which I think I need to bring again to this Floor. He spoke on a point of order when an issue was raised that there were others who were, indeed, more qualified. Indeed, that could possibly have been the case. However, I want to remind this House, that recently, we approved the name of the Controller of Budget. It is very well known that the person who was number one was not the one who was chosen. In fact, the person who was chosen was number four or five. The person who was number one was Mr. John Njiraini. That would have been the name that this House would have approved had it been that the issue---
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance in order to compare the two cases and
Hon. Mbadi, what is wrong with that?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the issue here is that by comparing the two, the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance is misleading this House because he is trying to persuade the House that the two cases are similar and yet they are different.
Order, Mr. Mbadi! I do not see anything wrong with that.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, you do not need to see.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I appreciate that but the truth of the matter still remains. If it is the question of ability and commitment, it should always be the person who is number one who is selected. There can be no other reason in a society if what we are looking for is the best that we have in the country and that is the word that was used. He is the best that we have. If he is the best, then the best is always number one. I have never seen a school where a person who gets a “D” becomes the most brilliant student in that particular school. So, the fact of the matter is that even if we will be taking and choosing positions, let us do so on a level playing ground. Let us not victimize people because of where they come from or because I do not like this particular person. This should be based on the ability. This panel has gone through this and it has done it. If the Justice and Legal Affairs Committee had come and found one single reason that questions the integrity of these people, issues that they had done or maybe they had not met their tax provisions or whatever other issues, then I would have concurred with the Committee. So, my plea to this House is that, indeed, we reject this Report and allow these good Kenyan citizens to go about the business of ensuring that we fight corruption in this country. I beg to oppose.
Thank you very much, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I rise to oppose this Motion. I think the Committee wanted this House to approve it and instead of putting the word “approve”, they put the word “reject”.
This is because if you look at all the recommendations and the institutional experience---
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I am a Member of that Committee and we are quite clear and unequivocal that we are recommending rejection. Is the Assistant Minister in order to mislead the House that we meant to do something other than what we rightly said?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, in the minutes of the Committee, there is nothing serious that will
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I beg to support this Motion and my reasons are as follows. Listening to the arguments that have been raised here about how you measure - and I want them to take this lesson today those who do not know how to measure that--- In the first instance, this is a realm of social science. It is measurable and it can be proven. Those who have no idea can come for those lessons. One of the reasons why you go through the papers and at the same time ensure that they attend a face to face session with the Committee is to judge exactly that. Otherwise there would be no good reason whatsoever. This is a Committee of the House, carefully chosen particularly, on legal and administrative matters. If you look at their composition, you will see that they are men of integrity. The fact that this House is already divided on this matter sets a very uncertain future for this Commission. You can confirm through a face to face interview the general disposition, the attitude of that candidate and the aspects related to initiative of that candidate. You can also see that this Committee is fair because they said that as far as the academic qualifications are concerned, they were satisfied to that extent. Therefore, they are very balanced in their argument. I have heard that most of the Members who have supported the candidature of some of these candidates is because they were classmates. That can prejudice you, the fact that you were classmates. We have many of them. Because of that, we do not know how hon. Kajwang procured the services of the candidate he was talking about. Was it subjected to any transparent process? Was there an advertisement for that process?
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. The rules of the House are very clear. A Member must declare his interest. That is what hon. Kajwang and hon. Githae have done and anybody else. If you do not do that, you are flouting our own standards. My good friend is not new in this House. He knows that very well.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, that point of order is misplaced. I am not questioning why he declared his interest. I am saying that even if he
Order, Mr. Bahari! Could you proceed to make your contribution? Please, could you get out of that now?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, as much as I am not convinced, I would be getting out of it. There is no rule that I have breached---
Mr. Bahari, why do you not move on with your contribution?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I now understand you. Now, we are communicating.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, we might set a very dangerous precedent if we are going to turn down the results of people we have given tasks. They have done a wonderful job in most of the cases.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is the Member in order to mislead the House that we would be setting a very dangerous precedent if we do not agree with the Committee? This Committee is advisory. It is for this House to approve or not approve.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is not the first time where a Committee has made recommendations and this House has disagreed.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am not out of order. There is no rule that I have breached. I am sure hon. Githae as a lawyer and as an old Member of this House understands what it means by a point of order.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, there is no rule that I have breached. I have just said that we tasked this Committee to do this job. They have given reasons why they have not recommended this gentlemen and ladies for appointment.
With those few remarks, I beg to support.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to support the Motion.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am a Member of this Committee that has been troubled for many months, and it was not easy for this Committee to come together. It was not easy for this Committee to agree. We took our time and executed our mandate in vetting these candidates, particularly who is to become the Chairman of Ethics and Anti Corruption Commission. By so doing, our mandate was guided by the provisions of the law, particularly Section 5 of the Ethics and Anti Corruption Commission. That particular section requires that a person shall be qualified to be appointed the chairperson, if that person meets the requirements of Chapter 6 of the Constitution. Section 6 of the same Act provides also that members must meet the requirements of Chapter 6 of the Constitution. What does Chapter 6 of the Constitution require of these candidates?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, when you look at Chapter 6 and one thing many Members who have contributed, I think they are backing the wrong tree. They are blaming the Committee, and they are, probably, casting aspersion. But they have not looked at the provisions of Chapter 6, particularly Article 7(2), which requires that the guiding principles of leadership and integrity, including selection on the basis of personal integrity must be taken into account.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, integrity is only one aspect we are looking at. Competence is another aspect. This, we are saying, is Matemu a person of integrity?
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Certainly, we have heard both sides of the coin. Hon. Members have ventilated enough. Would I be in order to call on the Mover to reply?
No! No! No!
I think what I am getting from the Members is that we need to continue a little bit longer to get more contributions. So, we go on with hon. Kioni.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to be very brief because I believe every Member who wants to speak on this issue should be allowed to do so.
I want to start by saying that I stand to support the Motion as proposed by the Committee. We must continue and ensure that we respect the work that is done by the Committees. If it is the question of the quality of the work, we say so, but trying to do character assassination will not be useful at all.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I only want to deal with one issue. If you look at the Report for those who have it, I think it is on page 11, paragraph 21. It says: “The Committee further observed that the Executive failed to include details on the criteria used to bypass the best candidate. The Committee, therefore, recommends that future nominations should be accompanied by reports outlining the standards used.” There must be a reason as to why we pass No.1. I have been on this Floor severally saying we really need to give everybody an opportunity to run for whatever office one desires. But it is important to observe as a nation, that if you want the country to move forward, we must use our best. Many times, the Prime Minister has stood on this Floor to tell us how Singapore, Malaysia and others have performed. However, when you look at the history of those countries, they were never run by anything else other than candidates who scored As in their examinations. We will not develop if we do not use the best among us. If we desire to go the route of Malaysia, Singapore and others, we must use the best that we have in the country.
We have had many reports on this Floor. As I said before, the best way to go is to have the best candidate at the right place. I know we have the issues of gender, regional balance and ethnicity. However, the issue of merit is given prominence in our Constitution. The fact that we had a better candidate than the person who has been nominated here allows me to support the position taken by this Committee. The requirements that the standards that have been used by those who have been nominated before be brought to the House, so that we remain informed, is a necessary requirement.
With those few remarks, I support the recommendations of this Committee.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am also a Member of that Committee. I would like the House and Kenyans to know that we did not come to this conclusion easily. We do understand the weight and responsibility of the work that we were to discharge. That must be made abundantly clear.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I can say, for example, that I know the nominee for Chair. He worked at the Agricultural Finance Corporation (AFC) where I served as the Managing Director. He has also worked at the Kenya Revenue Authority (KRA). Our concern was particularly because we were required to give notice to members of the public about anybody who may have issues with the members. Indeed, we did receive concerns from members of the public. One of the greatest concerns which really gave us considerable agony was that it was being suggested that the proposed Chairman of the Ethics and Anti-Corruption Commission, whilst in charge of the legal services at the KRA negotiated with a company which owed the KRA Kshs2.4 billion
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I thought we gave you considerable leeway for your schoolmate!
Order, hon. George Nyamweya!
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. The hon. Member is a Member of this Committee and what he is now telling us may have happened in the Committee. But we have looked at this Report and we have not seen anything. That would have touched on integrity and they would have said so clearly. I wonder why the hon. Member should be allowed to tell us things which happened in the Committee which are not in this Report.
Hon. George Nyamweya, is the information you are bringing up in the Report?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, in the Committee, we have HANSARD recordings. When you eventually make your recommendations, unless you are saying that we should bring the HANSARD report in its totality and all the exhibits that we received--- If that is the new way of doing things, you can tell us that that is the new way of doing things and we will do so. But nevertheless---
Hon. George Nyamweya, since you can see the interest of that remark, I would like you just to move on and make your contribution. This is because the particular information you have brought is not contained in the Report.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I did say that we are aware of our responsibility and, indeed, it will be our duty to inform this House, as a Committee, that we have concerns with the work you have given us about these nominees. This is the most serious Commission that we can ever set up to deal with the ethics and corruption in this country. There is no bigger threat to this country than corruption. We lose over Kshs200 billion per year because of corruption. We are saying that we must have faith in the person we want to entrust with that job.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I stood here not too long ago and raised concerns that I did not think that Dr. P.L.O Lumumba was suitable. I was in the minority but I did not shy away from discharging that responsibility and I am not going to shy away that I am not satisfied. That is what the Committee has been asked to do. It has been asked: “Are you satisfied? Have you looked at these people and interviewed them?” If you are satisfied, tell the House: “We think that they are suitable.” If the House agrees with us, fair enough! If they do not agree with us, that is also the responsibility of the House. But for goodness sake, we must point out to Kenyans. The House can, of course, overturn us. That is quite in order, but we must also be aware that we have warned you
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. You do recall that in my contribution, I said that the Report lacked facts and information. When a Member of that Committee brings facts and says that this information is available in the HANSARD when that HANSARD has not even been interpreted and printed--- I want to seek your indulgence on this matter, such that if the hon. Members who are contributing from that Committee withheld information from this House, then they cannot come and use it here as if they are hiding some cards under the table.
Hon. C. Kilonzo, we have a Motion before us. We have a Report already and I think the hon. Members have copies of the same. So, the hon. Members have already read the Report and made their own conclusions, and that is what they are debating. Any other issues are not contained in the report. It is also difficult to follow some of the proceedings to do with some particular findings which are not in the Report. So, hon. Members should restrict themselves to the Report that is before us.
Yes, hon. Mwau!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am slightly pained because when I look at the recommendations in this Report, they do not talk about any of the candidates being a witch-hunter, a person who is of questionable credibility, a person who lacks in integrity, a person who lacks in capacity or a person who in any way would not be able to perform the task of fighting corruption in this country.
I would also like to point out that the Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs is an agent of this House. I am not a rubberstamp. When they finish their recommendations, they come here and I am the final person. They are not the final person. They are my agents. Therefore, it is wrong for us to set very bad precedence. I have children and grandchildren and I hope that the other hon. Members also have children. I would like when my child goes for an interview for a job, the standards that are set are followed. You do not change the course in the middle because it is the son of so-and-so or because it is so-and-so. Here people went through the first interview and in the second interview--- We are not talking about Chapter Six here because it talks about integrity. The Committee is not questioning the integrity of these people. The Committee has now set up new standards or qualifications which are not legal, constitutional and are not found in any guidelines or rules and regulations. There are no guidelines in the Government that require you to show passion.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is the hon. Member in order to mislead this House that the Committee is setting a bad example to our children, while in essence they are actually setting the best example to our children? This is because in Paragraph 21, they are saying that the best candidate was by-passed. We would like our children to know that once you become number one, you take the certificate home. It should not be given to number two.
Proceed, Mr. Mwau. I think that is just an argument and an opinion.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the point that I am trying to drive here is that I do not want my son or my daughter or any of the relatives or children of this Member to go for an interview with a set standard and when they go there, the interviewer or the panel start looking at whether that person is passionate and whether they have initiative. When I went to vie for a parliamentary seat like all the other people here, my people did not ask me whether I have passion in legislating because I do not have passion in legislating. Nobody shows any passion in legislation but we have been able to legislate. When you were vying for your parliamentary seat, you did not show initiative in legislation but you have been able to legislate. When you were vying for your parliamentary seat, you did not show interest in legislation but you were able to legislate. So, when we start changing goal posts because you do not like a person or you do not like the theme of a person, a person who has gone up to a level where he has a PhD which is not collected in the bush; a PhD is a serious determination of academic excellence. That person has serious passion in whatever they do. I have seen some of these candidates---
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. If the word “passion” is creating confusion, then what Mr. Mwau is exhibiting now is perfect passion. Could he be informed accordingly?
Mr. Mwau, you do not have to respond to that. Just continue with your contribution.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would hate to go to any interview and then I have to start sobbing for the interviewer to see that I have passion for the job that I am looking for. That should not be the situation that we should be able to follow.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have looked at the recommendations by the Committee. The recommendations are very simple. The Committee deliberated on the nominees to the Ethics and Anti-Corruption Commission (EACC) and noted that the nominees lacked the passion. That is not a legal requirement. Initiative is a personal imagination. Sufficient interest in fighting corruption, you never gave them the opportunity to show you whether they could do it. How did they test them to see whether they have sufficient interest or not? Just to look at somebody for 15 minutes and you are able to see inside? Only God can do that.
All nominees had excellent careers. If they have excellent careers, at what time did they lack career? They had excellent careers and now they are looking to continue with excellent careers. I plead with this House that we do not make a mistake of making standards that we shall cry thereafter. I, therefore, seriously oppose this Motion.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, first of all, I want to congratulate the Committee for its work but I am going to oppose its Report. The reason why I am doing that is that many things have been said here but I want to show the Chair the minutes that were drafted and signed by the Chair of the Committee. Page two of the minutes of the Committee, and I want the Chairman to listen to this, the Chairman and Members have given reasons why the two nominees have been rejected but for Mr. Matemu, there is no reason that has been given. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, did you look at the name of Irene Keino? The reasons for rejecting this report read:-
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Hon. Muthama is making very serious contribution, but the consultations are a bit on the higher side and we cannot really hear what he is saying.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am not worried about the noise being made; I am making my point. Mr. Chair, you did a shoddy job here; you signed minutes here without giving reasons why the name of Matemu was rejected. You just gave his credibility, you showed how able he is, and you found absolutely no reason to make a remark here to show that he has failed. You left it blank and then you brought this Report here with your minutes and you want us to accept it! This is wrong! Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, if you go to page 7 of this Report, it gives the details or the requirements that they met. The requirements have been met. The requirements that are needed within the Constitution have been met. If you go to page 8 and 9, ten good points have been given by the Chair. These 10 good points qualify Mr. Matemu for the job. Not one has been challenged, and you want to say that the man does not qualify for the job! That is wrong. Somebody sits down with this Committee, puts down 10 points that clearly show qualifications of the candidate and yet the candidate does not qualify! Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, if you go to page 10, the reasons given are what has been said here; passion, initiative and drive. If I go to the constituencies of some of these hon. Members, I will find that the people who elected them are complaining that they are not serving them, but they are still hon. Members of Parliament. We all have weaknesses. You cannot pick just three points and say that Matemu was involved in corruption. There is no corruption! There is no wrong doing! This man has never stolen anything. Some of those who wrote this Report were rejected by the electorate! They came here as nominated Members of Parliament because they were rejected in their constituencies, yet they are here writing such a report!
Order! Order, hon. Members! Hon. Muriithi, what is your point of order?
On a point of order, Mr., Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Whereas I agree it is quite in order for hon. Muthama to be speaking in such passion in defense of a specific position, is it really in order for the hon. Muthama to disparage an hon. Member in this House? He is heaping insults on hon. Members and on the Chair of the Committee! Is it in order? Hon. Muthama should, in all fairness, withdraw, apologize and be contrite for his intransigency.
Mr. Temporary Deputy speaker, Sir, I have nothing to apologize for.
Order, hon. Muthama! There is a remark that you made and you need to apologize to the House. It will be proper for you to apologize and then make your contribution.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for the sake of the debate on the Motion to continue, I apologize and withdraw the remark “rejected”. The last point which is paragraph 20, the Chairman says that the Committee recommends that the Executive submits fresh names for consideration and approval to the EACC based on experience. No one in this country has ever served successfully in terms of containing corruption. So, there is one who commands experience at all from those who served and those to be nominated.
I beg to oppose this Report will all my strength.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, from the onset, I want to oppose this Report. It is unfortunate that we will always see victimization of women being played around with tribal factional fights. We are fed up. I can tell you that this Committee that is made up of lawyers---
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Did you hear hon. Shebesh say that there are tribal fights in this House? Could she clarify those tribal fights? I am not aware of any tribal fight in this House. We have been debating the nominees to the EACC.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I can clarify what I am saying. On this Floor, just a few weeks ago, we saw the Luhya nation coming together for their candidate. That is true. That time again, women were victimized. Women lost out in this fight. Today, without fear of contradiction, I see a Kamba nation fighting. We will not allow regional, factional and political parties fighting to always victimize women. For once, two ladies were picked for nomination to a Commission against one man and then you tell us in three sentences, very casually, that they have no passion. A passion of a woman is never seen during the day.
If they have interest in seeing the passion of these women, give them this work and let them do the work. Then you will see the passion that they have. Let this Parliament stop victimizing women who are qualified. These women have worked before in other sectors. They have passed the vetting process, and are qualified. I do not see how
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to oppose this Motion. Actions speak louder than words. It is not enough for somebody to come to an interview, speak so much, excite you and then you think they will do the job. The best workers that I know of in this country have very little words. Watch our President, hon. Kibaki, how much does he talk? But look at what he has done for this nation for ten years. You can easily say he does not have passion when he speaks to you, but look at his actions. So, we cannot sit here and judge people on the basis of this new word called “passion”, which we cannot even measure. You cannot just look at people and conclude, from the looks on their faces and from the way they have spoken, that they lack passion. That is a very dangerous way of determining how well a person can do a job. What worries me more is what hon. Shebesh has said. Two women here are about to lose their chances to serve this nation because some people feel that they are not passionate enough. I want to repeat what hon. Shebesh has said. If you want to know how passionate a woman is, give her the job. You will see the passion in her. You cannot see the passion in her because of how well she speaks or how excited she becomes towards you. I believe that these two women can perform very well for this nation.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Order! Proceed, hon. Mbarire!
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I want to urge this House not to set standards that cannot be verified in any way. These people have the right academic credentials. They are actually very well educated. They have the experience. What more do you want out of these people to believe that they can perform? I have a feeling that there is something else behind all this, and I would want this Committee to lay all the cards on the Table because something tells me that something is happening that we are not being told about.
The Committee should not expect us to accept their Report just because they were mandated by this House to represent us in the vetting exercise. We must ask you questions. Please, define “passion”. Please, tell me how you measure passion, so that I can listen to you.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I want to plead with you. I have just seen something unusual in this Parliament. Even as we debate this Motion, I think it is wrong for hon. Members sitting in this House to do what hon. K. Kilonzo has just done – to pass to you messages when people are already complaining that they are standing but they are not being given a chance to speak. I would wish to know the content of that message.
Order, hon. Midiwo! You are totally out of order!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am not out of order. What has been done is not procedural. You are the Chair. You know that.
Order! You are completely out of order.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I will be very brief on this matter. Let me start by saying that the President and the Prime Minister consulted for a long time on these personalities and concluded, in their wisdom, that the three personalities are qualified for the job. In my view, the three Kenyans are known. They are patriotic. They have served this country well for many years and their characters are unquestionable. I regret that the Committee that did this job and generated the recommendations was not passionate. It was somehow biased.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, before I speak, allow me to congratulate the three Kenyans for having caught the eyes of the President and the Prime Minister. Unfortunately, they should do more. They should also get the collective eye of Parliament.
They have it!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I stand to support the recommendations of the Committee. Before I do that, hon. Members have remind me to mention two Parliaments, namely Kenya’s Ninth Parliament and the Parliament of the Republic of South Africa. In the Ninth Parliament, the matter that I am about to speak to was a subject in the House. I was a sitting Member of Parliament then. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, in the Republic of South Africa, the challenge of apartheid went before Parliament and Parliament failed to rise against that challenge. This is when Steve Biko was reported killed in prison and some Members of Parliament said that he had died of starvation, yet there was no lack of food in South Africa. Today, the challenge before us is the fight against corruption, and we are about to make the most important decision that will enable this country to have every year a minimum of Kshs280 billion for development that is normally lost through corruption. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, in the Ninth Parliament – and this is in the HANSARD – a Member of Parliament brought up an issue that has now finally caught up with the proposed Chairman of this Commission. This was none other than hon. Julius Arunga. He said in the House that there were some companies in this country that were being aided in non-payment of Income Tax. Hon. Arunga was challenged and upon being challenged, he mentioned some of those companies. I wish to table the document.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I am on a serious point of order!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the judgment this witness swore an affidavit in support of is here. I have tabled it.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I know nothing about passion. I know nothing about the qualifications of a lawyer to be suitable or otherwise, but I am talking about the need for us to persistently challenge the monster of corruption. The High Court ruling that this witness spoke to is contained here. I have tabled the High Court ruling which states that Kingsway Tyres was supposed to pay Income Tax amounting to Kshs2.4 billion.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. If I hear hon. Khalwale correctly, he is saying that the Committee received some affidavits and submissions from members of the public. He is also suggesting that the Committee either ignored them or deliberately refused to include them in the Report. It now becomes difficult for me to understand how you can support a Report which has actually excluded very serious allegations of corruption, yet show us also that the same Committee ignored that information. We cannot allow this kind of argument. Otherwise he must declare his interest.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Even if I am in the minority---
Order! Where are you getting that information? Is it is in the Report? Is it contained in the Report before the House?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, can I respond without being interrupted? Before I respond, may I remind Mr. Kajwang who is my senior in politics that this Committee which was sitting is a Committee of this House and it is inferior of
But Dr. Khalwale, what we can agree on is that the Report we have does not contain the information you are now referring to.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, may I respond. The truth is this, that the information I have I got it from my own sources, but also the Committee has it in its possession in Room 8 the same documents that were filed by this witness who wanted to appear before the Committee.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir!
The next point I have---
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. With all humility that I can find in my humble self, why should we try to gag Dr. Khalwale who has information that should be brought to the attention of this House? Kenya is bleeding because of corruption. People died because of corruption. Why should we attempt to gag Dr. Khalwale? History will judge us harshly.
Dr. Khalwale, could you resume your seat first? Mr. Muriithi, you are completely bringing issues that are not relevant to what we are talking about. We are talking about the information that the hon. Member is talking about. We are not gagging him. He has the freedom to express himself. However, we need also to find out whether the information he has is contained in the Report. That is what we are talking about. Proceed, Dr. Khalwale!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, before I table my next set of documents, allow me to appeal to the women of this country that today the Committee has dropped two women. This is not in any way a demonstration that we do not appreciate or love them. Corruption hurts women more than it hurts men. It hurts the children of women more than it hurts men. Therefore, if we are committed to supporting the women of this country, we must give them an authority that has gentlemen and ladies of impeccable character. The next set of documents that I want to table, the first one is from Kingsway Group of Companies. In this document Kingsway in writing dated 28th September, 2004, made an undertaking to Kenya Revenue Authority and told Matemu that we want you to come and collect from us on a weekly basis Kshs1.5 million. The man we want to give the opportunity to fight corruption---
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Mr. K. Kilonzo, order! Let us allow the hon. Member to make his contribution!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, upon receipt of this document, the Kenya Revenue Authority (KRA) went ahead and commissioned an agent to collect, on their behalf, this Kshs1.5 million. This agent, when he failed to collect, locked up all the godowns belonging to Kingsway. Kingsway ran into a round table discussion and they re-opened them on the undertaking that he was going to be a gentleman so that he pays the money. Mr. Matemu, upon receiving that gentlemanly agreement refused to collect that money. All the time, he refused to collect the money.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.
There is no evidence!
This is evidence!
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I know this has been said but this must also be said loudly as a point of order. Is it in order for we, Members of Parliament, who are supposed to defend, promote and protect this Constitution to really shamelessly and blatantly withdraw to our cocoons, ethnic enclaves, show extreme passion even sycophantic passion so that when a person is audited; here is a diligent Member of Parliament from Ikolomani? Is it in order for some Members of Parliament here to try to disrupt contributions by Dr. Khalwale just because they want to protect, philistines, charlatans and quislings?
Dr. Khalwale, I think Mr. Kabando wa Kabando is just supporting you. You can proceed to make your contributions.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to thank Mr. Kabando wa Kabando. We have a shared background. When Kingsway Automobiles and Tyres Ltd. requested for this, the KRA immediately responded and acceded to its request and expected that Mr. Matemu would go ahead and collect the money. Mr. Matemu did not collect the money; not for one week, not for two weeks, not for three weeks, not at any week---
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Mr. K. Kilonzo, you had your chance!
I have not had my chance, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Dr. Khalwale, complete your contribution. Proceed!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I now want to give Mr. Muthama; Mr. Muthama, Kenya is not yours, it is not mine. It not for these Members of Parliament, Kenya is for the children of Kenya who want to grow and have a world of abundant opportunity. We are just as hungry for billions of dollars like anybody else but we are saying let us leave those dollars for the children of Kenya born today, tomorrow and later. If it is evidence that this---
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for Dr. Khalwale to mislead this House by giving false information? He is not telling this House that KRA went to
Allow me to respond to that point of order and say that if there will come a day when any of these mandarins at the KRA will require a lawyer, they better not come for your services. He will get them jailed because the court judgment he is talking about is the one I have tabled. It is there and it says this Income Tax must be collected by whom; by the KRA, Mr. Matemu. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I further want to table a series of documents which are repetitive and authentic and the Committee has them. Those documents demonstrate that when this good Samaritan or great Kenyan who wanted to be a witness, when he was proceeding, he was doing so on the strength of actual court orders of bailiff. The final document I want to table is----
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker.
Dr. Khalwale, continue.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I was fearing that probably the hon. Members who are being disorderly by rising on points of orders unfairly---
I have just protected you. Proceed!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the second last document that I want to table so that this House can be informed is the actual document which was the order of bailiff that was signed by Mr. R.S.K. Njoroge requiring that this money be paid. It is here and I table it. I have photocopied on the other side an order of a certified bailiff in accordance with Income Tax CAP 470 by the KRA which restrained Kingsway Tyres and Auto Company. With these series of documents I want to appeal to my colleagues with all due respect that I have no interest in this matter whatsoever. I want to beg hon. Members that I have no interest in this matter. This matter was merely brought to me by a patriotic Kenyan who appreciates the role of Parliament.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Given the fact that we have received sufficient submissions from the hon. Members, could the Mover be called upon to respond?
Hon. Members, can the Mover be called upon to respond?
Hon. Dr. Khalwale, you have the Floor to continue making your contribution!
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for the protection. I was just clarifying that I have no personal interest in this matter and I am just discharging the responsibility of a Member of Parliament. May I conclude by saying that this Parliament can force this Chairman on Kenyans. That is fine, because you will have the majority. May I conclude by saying that
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, from the very outset, I want to say that I support this Committee. I want to tell you that in this House, 30 per cent of Kenya’s Budget in every single year is lost through corruption. That translates to over Kshs300 billion every single year. That is Kshs300 billion that could be buying medicine and be used to pay doctors who are underpaid. The Kshs300 billion could be providing free 14 years of basic education to the children of Kenya. The Kshs300 billion could be building roads and making this country a country that all of us, every single Kenyan, can live in prosperity. We know that corruption networks fight back. We know that corruption networks can find their way in this House. We know that this Committee acted with discretion and evidence. I urge this House to trust the Committee. The Committee did not come to this House---
Order! Order! Hon. Muriithi, you will have 18 minutes to complete your contribution.
Hon. Members, it is now time for interruption of business. The House, therefore, stands adjourned until next Tuesday, 20th December, 2011, at 2.30 p.m.
The House rose at 6.30 p.m.