Sen. Ongoro, I thought you were listed to give two notices of Motion? This also applies to Sen. Ndiema. You must show interest from where you are seated. AVERTING LOOMING BREAKDOWN OF HEALTH SERVICES IN COUNTIES OVER MEDICAL PRACTITIONERS’ CONCERNS
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Motion that aware that health services have been devolved----
Order, Sen. Ndiema. It is notice of Motion. Start with “I beg to give notice of the following Motion---“
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to give notice of the following Motion:- THAT, aware that health services have been devolved in accordance with the Fourth Schedule of the Constitution and that medical doctors and other health practitioners in the public sector have been transferred or are being transferred to the counties; concerned that there is an acute shortage of medical professionals especially consultants in the counties and particularly in the rural counties; further concerned that public health personnel particularly doctors, are apprehensive that their terms of service including training, pension, remuneration, professional advancement and welfare are not assured and as a result are seeking for employment in private medical institutions in urban centres, cognizant of the grave danger their departure poses to the health sector, the Senate calls upon the national and county governments to urgently address the concerns of medical practitioners to avert the looming breakdown of health services in counties. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to give notice of the following two Motions. URGENT MEASURES TO MOTIVATE COCONUT FARMERS THAT, aware of the critical role played by the agricultural sector in Kenya’s economy; cognizant of the fact that coconut farming is largely practiced in the coastal region; aware that coconut farming has been largely neglected and its potential not fully exploited for maximum benefits; appreciating that the crop has multiple benefits including the natural mnazi drink which has medicinal value, coconut cooking oil, coconut cream, cooking flavours, makuti roofing materials, construction poles and brooms; cognizant of the fact that it takes a very long period for the coconut tree to mature for all these benefits to be realized occasioning delayed revenue generation to the farmer; further aware that modern farming and exploitation techniques of this crop can lead to higher yields resulting in job creation and improved economy; appreciating that the national government is taking various measures to develop the agricultural sector in the country; the Senate urges the national Government to take measures aimed at giving incentives to coconut farmers during the long maturity period of the crop so as to motivate and encourage farmers to plant more coconut trees. ESTABLISHMENT OF COMPREHENSIVE CAPACITY BUILDING PROGRAMME FOR TEENAGE PARENTS THAT, aware that the number of teenage and pre-teen parents is increasing by the day; noting with concern that majority in this category are girls from poor households and that this problem compounds the vicious cycle of poverty in Kenya; recognizing the socio-economic challenges facing this special category of parents including lack of income and entrepreneurial capacity, inadequate parenting skills; law educational levels and lack of healthcare; appreciating that Article 45(1) of the Constitution of Kenya recognizes the family as a fundamental unit of society that enjoys protection of the State; cognizant of the fact that the Government has a duty to cater for the youth and children of Kenya; the Senate urges the national Government and the county governments to:- (a) put in place mechanisms that will help establish a comprehensive capacity building programme for teenage parents to ensure they practice responsible family life; (b) come up with non-discriminatory back to school or training programme and initiate necessary legal and policy framework that will identify persons within this group to benefit from the programmes; The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to seek for a Statement from the Chairman of Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget in respect of agreements that have been signed and entered into by the Government of Kenya and the Government of China. I would like the following clarifications:- (i)What are the exact details of the multi-billion shilling agreements between Kenya and China? (ii) Exactly how much of this money is actually involved; (iii) How much money will go into infrastructure projects and what are those projects? (iv)How much of this money constitutes interest free loans and grants?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, that is a question that requires a lot of information. I would suggest that we give an answer in three weeks’ time from today. ALLOCATION OF LAND TO SQUATTERS IN CHEPCHOINA PHASE II SETTLEMENT SCHEME
Mr. Speaker, Sir, on 15th April, 2014, I sought a Statement from the Chairperson of the Departmental Committee on Land and Natural Resources on four issues:- (i) I wanted to know the list of beneficiaries of the allocation of land in Chepchoina Settlement Scheme---
Order! Do you have the Order Paper with you? Look at the last page item (b), and I can see the Chairman is here.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to give a Statement on the criteria used in allocation of land to squatters in Chepchoina Phase II Settlement Scheme in Trans Nzoia. Mr. Speaker, Sir, on the list of beneficiaries, I hereby table the entire list of the beneficiaries as allocated in that scheme.
The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
What is it, Sen. Murkomen?
Did you hear the Chairman say “foreigners from other counties”? Is it counties or countries?
Yes, indeed I heard him.
I agree with the comment. That is the question that was put by the honourable Senator. She wanted to have a confirmation of whether there are foreigners from neighbouring counties who benefited from the allocation and the impact of the same on insecurity in Trans Nzoia County. That is why I was responding to that. The Settlement Fund Trustees (SFT) is meant to cater for poor landless Kenyans regardless of their community of origin. Chepchoina Phase II---
(Sen. (Prof) Kindiki): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
What is it, Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki?
(Sen. (Prof) Kindiki): Is it in order for the Chairman of the Committee on Lands and Natural Resources, in reading an answer, however, badly the Statement was asked, to refer to fellow Kenyans as foreigners. I find that to be most unconstitutional.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. My question was very clear. I stated “foreigners from neighbouring countries”. I think he has inserted the word “counties” to mislead the House.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the HANSARD will bear me witness and the document or the request which was signed by the Senator and was laid on the Table of the House. This is what is guiding me and that is what I am answering. My answer is that there are no foreigners from---
Order! There is a contest on what we are referring to, so you cannot proceed to answer.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have a copy of my Statement which you signed and I quote:- “(d) confirm if there were any foreigners from neighbouring countries who were allocated land and the impact of this on insecurity in Trans Nzoia.”
Order! Let the Chair and the Senator approach the Speaker with their documents so that we can dispose this matter with finality. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg for your permission to expunge the word “counties” and replace it with “countries”---
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The point I want to make is that whether he expunges counties for countries, the whole answer has no substratum. So, it must be deferred until he gets it correct.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Indeed, I wanted to bring to your attention the same issue that the able Deputy Speaker has pointed out. The Chairman is proceeding to answer a wrong question. Therefore, his answer is invalid and the Statement should be deferred.
Order. I think the Chairman is absolutely right to request, although he has no capacity, the Chair to rule that foreigners and the word counties be expunged. That is just one part out of a four part response. So, we cannot also claim, Sen. Kembi-Gitura, that the answer is not valid. In any case, he is yet even to response. It could be a typo.
I stand guided, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
So, let us hear the response, then you can now categorically state that it is irrelevant. In any case, there are other components that he can proceed to respond to. This is a small matter. We have clarified that the request in the Statement was: “confirm if there are any foreigners from neighbouring countries and not counties” That is the one he should respond to.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, actually, the difference between counties and countries is only the “r”. It could be a typo but nonetheless, I would like to answer this question in such a way that it satisfies my colleague, Sen. Mukiite and the House. I would like to mention that the allocation of land to squatters in this scheme was done by a committee of 21 people. This committee was elected publicly by the communities of that area. Then the administration on the implementation of the scheme was handed over to the Settlement Fund Trustees. The fourth part was on the state of landlessness in the country per county. I hope there is no problem here. Currently, there is no data on the number of landless people in Kenya. Therefore, there is need for the national and county governments as well as the National Land Commission to establish this kind of database but at the moment, it is not there. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
What is it, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, my point of order has got two arms. The first one is a request that probably the originator of the Statement should allow us to go through that list so that we see who these beneficiaries are because this is an area that we know has challenges. You remember in the last Parliament, there was a petition from squatters of Trans Nzioa and they were far much more than the one he has talked about in respect of Chepchoina. Maybe, you could give us more time to peruse the list and confirm. Finally, is the Chairman in order to attempt to mislead the House that there is no record of landless people when we know that his own Government has been giving out Kshs400,000 to people for settlement? If that is the case, how did the Government know that these are deserving people if they have no such record?
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I just wanted to correct the Chairman. He says that there was a team of 21---
Order, Sen. Mukiite. You definitely have the right of being the first one to interrogate the Chair but for now, we are taking points of order.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is the Senator in order to say that we do not have the number yet we know that the landless are not just---
Order, Sen. Elachi. This is not a debate. For now, you cannot purport to represent Sen. Lenny Kivuti who is the Chairman of the Committee. The issues raised by Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale were directed to the Chairman. I have always said that we should allow the Chair to respond first, then if he needs your assistance, he is at liberty to do so but I have every reason to believe that Chairman, Sen. Lenny Kivuti is very capable of responding to the issues raised by Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Although you had earlier ruled on this issue, but Sen. Kivuti’s Statement was based on foreigners from neighbouring counties and not foreigners from neighbouring countries. Indeed, he has so stated that his list does not include foreigners from other countries. Therefore, I beg that you order that the Chair goes back and relooks at a proper answer to this statement.
Let us first confirm what the Chairman has confirmed and which was also my suspicion. The difference in letters between counties and countries is “r”. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Actually, I was almost expecting somebody to comment on the list of landlessness. But you will agree with me that if at all we went out there and said “anybody who is landless, come;” out of 40 million Kenyans, we may as well end up with 20 million people who are landless. So, for anyone to expect that list to be brought here, county by county, I think it is a tall order. Notwithstanding that---
Order! Order, Chairperson! First, you are not responding to the issue. The issue was the extent of landlessness in the country; and the country is entitled to know. I know for a fact that as early as 1974, there was a report by law on the state of landlessness in the Republic. So, do you want to tell me, many years down the road, that we failed to sustain capacity? The Chair was also with the initial response that maybe you do not have updated records and that you, as the Chairperson, will ensure that, that is done by the relevant agencies. But you cannot tell us that you cannot ask!
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Actually, that was contained in my earlier answer that there is no data on landlessness at the moment. But on the same issue, it is also true that there was a question in which Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale was talking about people who were given Kshs400,000 for resettlement, which actually I think he is referring to the Internally Displaced Persons (IDPs) who are being resettled as a result of the scuffles that were there in 2007/2008; and not really the general issue of landlessness in Kenya. Now, the issue of neighbouring countries – which is the bona fide question from Sen. Mukiite – I think I dealt with that substantively because there is nobody on this list from the neighbouring countries---
Order! Order, Chairperson! The Speaker had already assisted you there. Do not respond to that one; it has been finalized.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I would like to respond to the issues that my colleague Senator has brought on the Floor of this House. One, he says that there was a team of 21 people who were selected to allocate the land to squatters in Chepchoina Scheme Phase II-- -
Sen. Mukiite, do not repeat what the Chairperson said; we are all here and we heard. Make your intervention to what is needed there.
Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir. My bone of contention is; as a leader of Trans Nzoia, I was not aware. There are many other leaders in Trans Nzoia who are not aware of this list. In fact, the list that he has brought to the Floor of this House varies from the list that I got The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
What is your point of order, Sen. Murkomen?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, you have heard the answer from the Chairperson about the existence of foreigners, and Sen. Mukiite is alleging that from the information from the ground, there are foreigners who have been settled in Kenya. That is a very serious issue. Considering it is very serious, is it in order for me to ask you to direct the Senator to furnish us with the list she is saying she has? As a Senate, we have to follow up that issue to its conclusion because of the seriousness of that matter.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am sorry I have come a bit late; I was in a meeting elsewhere, but I was listening to the answers being given on this issue. I recall when the Statement was sought, I also asked for further information---
Except that, Sen. Wetangula, it helps to settle a bit.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have been following the debate.
From the way you are moving, it is as if you have not followed.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, can you allow me to raise my issue relating to what Sen. Murkomen has said?
Then why take the torturous long route?
To warm it up, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Okay, warm it up quickly!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, we have a list that has been furnished that shows very clearly that in this settlement scheme, there are people settled from Uganda. I do not know why we are saying “a neighbouring country;” the only neighbour to Chepchoina is Uganda. We have people who have been settled in this scheme from Uganda. The sources of information are Members of Parliament (MPs) from the area. If the Chairperson of the Committee has not been given adequate information, we do not want to ambush him. We can do justice to this issue by you referring the matter back to the Committee, and there are MPs who are willing to come and give the Committee information so that they can bring full information to this House.
By the way, this matter did not have to go the way it has gone. It is just that Sen. Mukiite made statements and put assertions but never really asked that there are certain names – which I think she has; I have seen a copy of the original list she had submitted to support the Statement – that are different from what the Chairperson has provided. So, let us hear the response of the Chairperson.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Whereas there could be new persons settling on the land now, which is a different fact from the records which are with the Government, I cannot dispute that there could be different people who are settling on the land now because the people who were genuinely allocated the land and they got their titles are the ones who are on the list which has been tabled. Now, unless maybe the Senator could go and get some searches contrary to the list which is with the Government, then I would have no objection to have a different kind of Statement; that somebody else maybe has sold some land to a foreigner or something to that effect. But at the moment, the persons who were allocated the land are as per the list I tabled before this House.
We will get the last two very brief interventions because I am strongly persuaded by what Sen. Wetangula suggested and also in supporting what Sen. Murkomen had already indicated that this matter goes to the Committee so that representations can be made. Because, obviously, the Chairperson is relying on one source of information; so, he needs to be given alternative sources. Then, I am sure he might have to agree with Sen. Mukiite. I will not accept his proposition that Sen. Mukiite goes for another statement; you have already told us that the SFT settlement policy for allocation is 60 per cent for locals and 40 per cent for Kenyans from other counties who may be landless and poor. So, as the Committee, it is you to interrogate the Agricultural Development Corporation (ADC) and the Cabinet Secretary (CS); and then on the basis of the information you will get from other stakeholders, then you can give an informed statement. So, let me direct that way. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Sen. ole Ndiema is a Member.
Sen. ole Ndiema is a Member?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, although you seem to have ruled, but I thought I would ask if it is in order for the Chairperson to reconfirm that the names that are given the ones which were vetted by a committee appointed by the Government and elected by the people themselves; and that the list contains names of Kenyans with valid identity cards as the---
Order, Sen. ole Ndiema! It is for all those issues you have raised that we have already referred the matter to the Committee. Fortunately for you, you are a Member of the Committee. So, you have a real opportunity to interrogate the matter further, and I think it is a matter of immense public interest and it should go that way. I direct that the matter be referred to the Committee.
When do we get the response, Chairperson?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think from what you have directed, it may require to have some inquiry of some sort. To have an inquiry which is in depth, I do not think we should rush it to less than four weeks. So, I request for four weeks.
I think that is a reasonable request; you will table a comprehensive report to the House in one month’s time.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I just want to be in order---
I hope you are not rising about this statement; we have disposed this one.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is just a small bit of it. Mr. Speaker, Sir, from the outset, the Chairperson should know how serious we are on this issue because it affects landless people. That is the only point I wanted to raise.
I am highly constrained, Sen. Muthama. Next Statement!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, nobody is rising, but I had sought a Statement myself; I do not know whether we have reached that stage. Because we are still on the Order Paper, and it appears like that is for answers but there are those of us who had sought Statements which are not on the Order Paper---
If there is no other interest, maybe we will take yours.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I had sought two statements. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Okay, maybe to guide Sen. Kembi-Gitura particularly and generally, we take those ones that are listed and then now we can entertain the rest. There is the Chairperson of the Committee on Agriculture, Livestock and Fisheries, Sen. Kivuti? Is that the one on Masongaleni?
Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Proceed. ALLOTMENT OF MASONGALENI SETTLEMENT SCHEME
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. With regard to the issue of Masongaleni Settlement Scheme, we had a preliminary discussion and this document was actually tabled. But there were several questions as to Government policy on allotment of land, particularly to landless people. The Chair, on that day, directed that we get further information on this matter. Mr. Speaker, Sir, we have interrogated this matter at the Committee level and the final list – and even when we check in the Ministry, it seems it is true that some officials of Government were actually allotted land in Masongaleni---
And as such, we put out heads together to see what would be a recourse---
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
What is your point of order, Sen. Murkomen?
Is it some or many because the Chairperson said “some” and then when someone shouted from the Floor “Many,” he said many? Can he give one answer?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would rather stick to “some.”
This is because they are quite few comparatively, because the total list is over 1,760 and the Government officers are not even 100.
Order, Chairperson! You lose me, because the way we respond--- You see, in your earlier Statement, you definitely had part (a), (b), (c) and (d), and The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Why do you not allow the Chairperson to speak for himself?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, that is my Vice Chairperson; may I allow him to comment because what happens is that---
For now you have the Floor.
Okay; I am equal to the task.
If, for some reason, you decide it is your Vice Chairperson to give the Statement, then you should have given him the opportunity to respond from the very beginning.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am equal to the task. Now, I do not know if you would like me to read the answer to this request again? We had actually read the whole lot of it, but we had some questions from Sen. Muthama, a few other Senators and also from---
You will respond to those ones.
Yes; that is what I was responding to. We were referred to go and check further how the Government officers got to own the land and what can be done about that problem. Sen. Muthama asked why the poor people are being asked to pay some fees for titles when they are very poor. So, I was going to respond to those two questions. On the first one which was asked by Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. on what to do with the officers who were allocated land, since the list is there in black and white, page 1 has the names of some prominent Government officers who were allocated land in the scheme. My answer to that is that when land is allotted, the title has been issued, if it is first registration – that is Section 128 of RRA – it is possible to follow it up and reverse the situation but that can only be done through a court process. Now, the question is: Who will go to court and look for Gen. Mulinge, who is now dead, to recover his---
He is not dead!
He is not dead? I withdraw that.
What is it, Sen. Muthama?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I just wanted to make that correction; that Gen. Mulinge is still alive and he is doing very well. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
My apologies, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I withdraw and apologize. But with the number of people who are there, if we were going to ask someone to go and follow up and prove that so-and-so did not get land when he was landless, this can only be done through a court process. Mr. Speaker, Sir, on the second question, regarding the fees to be paid by poor people, my answer is that I consulted with the Ministry. Fees and charges by the Government cannot be waived arbitrarily. So, the Cabinet Secretary has no power to say that so-and-so looks poor and, therefore, should not pay title deed charges, which is not much.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is the Chairman in order to mislead the House when the actual report from hon. Charity Ngilu reads that the Ministry intends to request the Cabinet to waive land charges, so that the remaining 1,716 beneficiaries can be issued with title deeds during the ongoing programme?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, like I said, I was asked to go back and consult and I am reporting---
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I just want to assist on this issue of waivers---
Let him respond first. He needs to respond as to whether or not what he has been challenged about is the position, and then you may come to his rescue.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, whereas I would have minded the comment from the former Minister for Lands, but I consulted because the matter was raised on the Floor of the House. I was obliged to come and report whether or not these people are going to be given titles without paying the charges. The answer was that although the Cabinet Secretary still has the intention to look for a way to waive those charges, she cannot guarantee that position. She only said that she will apply to the Cabinet to see if it is possible to waive fees and charges for these particular people.
Order, Chairman! You would save a lot of the House’s time, because the way that you had finished the matter earlier, is not the same way that you are doing it now. Maybe she has no powers to issue waivers, but she has promised to go to the Cabinet, so that something could be done. I think that, that is what the Senator was asking you to confirm, and you seem to be reluctant to give.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, let me put it as candidly as that. The official position is that the Cabinet Secretary has no powers to waive fees, but she promised to appeal to the Cabinet, so that, that waiver can be given, if possible.
Sen. Orengo, I just want to remind you that you are a former Minister, but for the purposes of this House, you are not. Proceed!
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I just wanted to point out that the expectation which the House may be having may not be possible, because it was discovered The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Order, Sen. Orengo! Apart from demonstrating your knowledge of the Constitution, particularly that article, I do not think that there is anything wrong with what the Chairman has said. This is because if the Cabinet Secretary is going to the Cabinet to seek for some assistance or direction, it may as well be that, that assistance will follow the procedure of legislation. They can originate it as the Executive and bring it to Parliament. So, I do not think that we should really make it appear like it is mission impossible. If they have to do it, that is the procedure that they will employ. I think that, that is the important issue. It can be done if they follow the procedure. Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr., have you finished your interrogation?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have not finished. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to thank the Chairman for this Report. The people of Masongaleni will be happy to know that the Cabinet is considering them for such waiver. But the Chairman has come up with another list which has about 400 people. Some people have been given 50 acres, some 100 acres and others 200 acres. I have even spoken to my colleague and uncle, Sen. Muthama, who appears on the list, and he says that he has not been given land in Masongaleni. I would like to request that this list, which contains more than 300 people who are not squatters and some of whom are not from Makueni, ought to be interrogated in an inquiry. Some are from Kajiado and others from Nandi Hills. My brother, Sen. Muthama, says that he has not been given 50 acres in Masongaleni, yet he appears on the list. He has never been given a title deed and does not know where that land is. Is should not appear that there is a list that has been given of names of people who do not exist, yet that land is being used by other people. Mr. Speaker, Sir, thirdly, the Government bought 30,000 acres to settle poor people from Makueni, who had been evicted from a forest, out of whom 1,716 beneficiaries have no titles. I am aware that there are many others who have never been given this land and yet, the land has not been utilized. Would I be in order to request that the total acreage of land that has been given to the squatters is clearly defined? The total acreage that appears to have been given to these beneficiaries – 100 acres and 200 acres - who are both politicians and very senior people in the Government should be interrogated in detail, so that this issue can be resolved once and for all. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I have seen names of senior people, including the Chief Justices, Sergeants, politicians and other “big” people. Immoral as it may sound, is the Senator insinuating that it was illegal to allocate land to such people?
Order, Sen. Khalwale!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I know that it is immoral, but do not think that it was illegal at that time.
Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr.!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, in fact, my good brother, Sen. Murkomen, should read the Statement from the Cabinet Secretary in charge. It reads:- “The Government purchased 30,000 acres to settle landless people from Makueni who had been removed from the forest at Kyulu Hills, because it has now become a water tower.” Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Chief Justice then, of course, could have afforded to buy a piece of land. In any event, why would you give him 200 acres? That is the point that I am making, because the Government would not have bought 30,000 acres to settle people who are capable of buying land. There is nothing more illegal than using public money and robbing Peter to pay Paul.
On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Order! Order! I think that, that point has been made. You should have brought all your points at ago. We need to proceed. It is obvious that settlement schemes, just by the mere reading of English, are for the landless. You do not settle people who are already settled.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, if you allow me just one minute.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am saying this because I am a neighbour to Trans Nzoia County. In Trans Nzoia County, Uasin Gishu County and other counties that I know, the lands that are called settlement schemes were allocated to more senior people or of equivalent nature to the politicians listed here, including the Chief Justices and so forth. At that time, people were hiding under the Presidential directives, the Commissioner of Lands and so forth. Do you not think, considering the magnitude of this matter and borrowing from what we are discussing here and saying that it is illegal, can we not then open up the process and say that the National Land Commission, for example, be given directions to give us the time within which we will reopen this discussion if need be, so that we can deal with the people, including those---
Now the entire House wants to contribute. We know that when we want the entire House to contribute, we bring a Motion. Let me dispose this issue.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Just for the purposes of Sen. Murkomen, there were two categories of settlement schemes that were established immediately after Independence. The settlement schemes that exist in Trans Nzoia and some other places are where the black Africans were allowed to acquire land that belonged to the Whites, and they had to pay some value for it. Those settlement schemes are in Muhoroni and Koru. But if it is land for settlement, under the land adjudication and settlement, you have not only to be landless, but poor and landless. In this list, certainly, the people who are being mentioned were neither poor nor landless.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I am amazed at the argument of a very distinguished lawyer, Sen. Murkomen. If land is for the poor and landless, for settlement, it does not become legitimate if a person who is undeserving misrepresents himself as poor and fraudulently gets an acquisition in a scheme meant for the poor and landless. When those facts come to the fore, those who are in this list; that is, the Chief Justice, District Commissioner, District Officer or whoever--- First, the Government has a duty to revoke the allocation for misrepresentation and prosecute them for fraudulently acquiring land meant for the poor. We do not come here and call it legitimate, simply because it was an allocation and you were allocated. The process is as important as the end product.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
I thought that after that eloquent submission by the Senate Minority Leader, the rest of you, especially who belong to his side and some who were quite happy that they were considered as brothers---
In addition, Mr. Speaker, Sir. We were told earlier one that the people who were settled in Kyulu Hills water tower were the ones who were going to be settled here, because they had now become landless. So, it will be a question of determining whether some of the prominent people on the list were actually in that forest.
Order! Order, Senators! Let us conclude this matter. Let us take the last two. Sen. Muthama and then Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will be very brief. From the outset, this land was for the poor and landless people. The Chairman says that the only way to revoke these title deeds is to go through a court of law. The Government has got the machinery to do that. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Order! You have made your case. You are not going to prosecute people, including yourself, on the Floor.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am just touching on what the Chairman said; that it is only through the court process that the matter can be resolved. But who should take the matter to court? If it is not the Government, then some of us are ready to take the matter to court on behalf of the poor wananchi, who deserve to be given this land. Mr. Speaker, Sir, secondly,---
Order! Order! Sen. Muthama, this is an intervention and not a contribution to a Motion. I am satisfied and will rule you out of order if you proceed. You have made your intervention. Let us give it to Sen. Khalwale!
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Just a procedural issue. Sen. Muthama should declare his interest in this issue.
Order! Order, Sen. Machage! You were not listening. Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. was very clear and deliberately profiled and highlighted the name of Sen. Muthama. Sen. Muthama was very busy giving him additional information, that he has no title deed and does not know where the land is. I was listening from here, because he is close to the Chair. Secondly, in his own intervention, he has gestured in the most dramatic manner, using both hands. That is a declaration of interest. I am completely satisfied that he has already declared his interest. Proceed, Sen. Khalwale!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am so unhappy that Sen. Murkomen wants to use the bad history that this Constitution was trying to correct, to the effect that some of the people who are on this list, armed with a letter from State House, then acquired public property unfairly. Mr. Speaker, Sir, as he misleads us, he knows very well the Constitution of Kenya, Article 67(2)(e), says that the National Land Commission shall; “initiate investigations on its own initiative or on a complaint into present or historical land injustices and recommend appropriate redress.” Mr. Speaker, Sir, this very clear and strong statement in the Constitution is the reason why Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. is insisting that as the Chairman comes with the answers, he should tells us what the Government intends to do to reverse this injustice. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Order, Sen. Murkomen. You are a Member of the Speakers’ Panel. You know that when the Speaker’s feet are up, yours must be down. That is true to any other Senator. The issue of land is very emotive as you have just demonstrated and that is why there are specific provisions. My own understanding and the reading of the statement I wanted read – there was a request from Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. that the Chair, in responding to the request has brought more information which has made the case even stronger. Just like the Chair was directed, to interrogate further the issue of Chepchoina Settlement Scheme, it is important for the Committee to interrogate, further the issues around Masongaleni Settlement Scheme so that all these issues you are raising can be sorted according to the law. For the name of Sen. Murkomen to be mentioned just like Sen. Khalwale, Sen. Wetangula and Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. have been mentioned; my own reading is that he was just making reference to what we have done to Masongaleni and Chepchoina Settlement Scheme including many other schemes that Members were raising about. Part of the job of the Committee is to confirm whether the settlement scheme was the one of the Africanisation or if it was the one for the landless. In any case, we have the famous Ndung’u Report. So, there will be work to be done. We have provisions that have been cited by Sen. Khalwale in terms of what the National Land Commission ought to do. So, let us allow the Committee to do its work and give us a comprehensive Report.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. You will agree with me that these matters are becoming weightier and weightier as we continue to discuss them. From what I am seeing, it will not be possible to go to the Ministry, get an answer and bring it here. In case, we need to carry out a thorough investigation on this matter, I request that we get ample time to do an inquiry as a Committee instead of bringing in extra information on the Report.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Many years ago, when we were reading law, we were told that if land is set aside and the purpose for which it was set aside is lost, then the land reverts back to the Government. Reading this Report, I see that the land was bought in 1984 for Kshs6.2 million, which is a lot of money, by the Republic of Kenya, to settle people a very large list of people is done for people to settle on this land. Most of these are very wealthy people that we know. These are people who could have afforded a project company, made Kshs6.2 million and bought this land from Brook Bond. So, the answer that the Committee should answer is why the Government spent so much money to buy land only to give it out to people who did not need land. If we get that answer, then we will be satisfied. This borders on being immoral. The Government used its money; Kshs6.2 million, to settle rich people. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Order, Sen. Kembi-Gitura. You run the risk of being repetitive.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, at times, it is important to be repetitive. It makes the points sink because at times the points do not seem to sink.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The HANSARD will bear me witness. The reason I am standing is that Sen. Wetangula and Sen. Khalwale were insinuating that I said something different from what they were saying. I was saying that if that is what is happening in Makueni, then we should also know that there are worse public officers, who have held higher officers that the ones listed here, in Trans Nzoia and other areas. However, the submissions by Sen. Khalwale and Sen. Wetangula show that I, being a son of a squatter, would have said something different.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have one little item. With regard to the issue that the Chairman suggested that you can only correct these titles or reverse them by going to court. He should also talk to the National Land Commission. As hon. Khalwale has read correctly, it is the responsibility of the National Land Commission to correct some of these injustices and wrongs. So, when he reports next, he should tell us what the National Land Commission has said and not the Cabinet Secretary. I can see there is a lot of warfare as to who controls what in that docket.
Sen. Kajwang, you are now trying to direct the Committee on how it will do its work. The Committee is fully aware that there is a Commission and of the Cabinet Secretary. You will talk to all of them and others that you have not mentioned if you think it will help in the investigation of the matter. Chairman, how long will you need.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg your indulgence. We will require a maximum of 90 days from today.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, we are going to June. We want a thorough investigation both for Trans Nzoia and Makueni and not just one case. We have to fully interrogate. However, in case we get the answers soon, we will have no reasons to uphold.
Mr. Chairman, since you requested four weeks for Trans Nzoia, you should use another four weeks for Masongaleni. It is important that this matter is arrested early enough.
Most obliged, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
You have a maximum of two months. Is there any other statement? Where is the Chairman for the Committee on Agriculture? I can see you are listed here. Where is the Vice Chairperson, hon. Ndiema? Do you have the Order Paper? We upload the Order Paper 24 hours before time to accord everybody an opportunity to see the business of the House. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think the answer is not ready. I ask for the indulgence of the Chair so that I respond in two weeks.
Order, Sen. Ndiema. It is important that you take the work of the House seriously. We have just resumed from a long recess. This matter was not raised yesterday. It was raised before we went on recess, in fact, 14th April, 2014. If you do not have an answer, do not say that the answer is not ready because I have a copy. So, respond to it tomorrow.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I seek your indulgence because as you are aware, tomorrow, we are having a high level conference in Naivasha. I and the Chairperson will be there. This meeting is organized by the Committee and we invited all Members to attend.
Sen. Ndiema, the business of the House takes precedence over any other. The conference is not starting tomorrow. The conference will be starting on Friday morning. Naivasha is very close and you can even go on Friday morning. Therefore, I still insist and direct that you respond tomorrow afternoon.
Obliged. ESCALATING BANK INTEREST RATES
Mr. Speaker, Sir, there are statements that I have stalked which are appearing on the Statements List. One is on the Escalating Bank Interest Rates which was to be given on 22nd April, 2014 and the other one is on the Safety of the Thika Superhighway which was to be delivered yesterday; numbers 34 and 39 on your list. I can see one of the Committee Members walking out. I do not know how he will deal with it.
Order. These statements were due as early as April and another one 3rd June. They have more than matured now.
Mr. Chairman, Sir, the Committee is still deliberating on the same. In fact, in our last sitting, we sought to have the Cabinet Secretary for Treasury who did not appear. We are supposed to have a sitting with him tomorrow, as a Committee. In fact, this is one of the agenda in our Committee meetings.
Will you see him tomorrow?
Yes, this is a matter that is before our Committee and we are taking it seriously.
That is not news. We are all aware that it is before your Committee. The question is: When will the Committee conclude the work and bring a Report back to the House? Specify the timelines.
Give us one more week because we are interrogating various institutions.
On both statements?
Yes. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
If the Committee has said they need a week, then that is okay. However, the Committee has taken too long.
Where is the Chairman of the Committee on Roads and Transportation? Is the Vice Chairperson here or any Member?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I kindly request that you allow us to bring that Statement to the House in a week’s time.
That does not explain why the Statement was not brought when it was required in the House.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, this matter is one of the agenda that we discussed. We had summoned the Cabinet Secretary, Roads, but did not appear. However, we got communication that he would be present in our next meeting. We can undertake to have this Statement issued here in a week’s time. That is next week.
Sen. Kembi-Gitura, your destiny is in one week’s time.
That is the end of statements. Let us move to the next order. I want to remind the Committee Chairpersons that answers should be forthcoming. Let me not remind you what was due. We do not want to waste a lot of time. You should not wait to be told that this Report was due. I am sure the House will appreciate that. You should not wait hon. Senators to ask you about the issues. That makes you appear as if you are hiding something even if you are not. Next Order.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move:- The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. For the HANSARD purposes and to make it clear, the Mover should not talk about Mandera County Government sitting in Mandera. For clarity of the HANSARD, it has to be clear that it is Mandera Town for Mandera and Wajir Town for Wajir because the county bears the same name as the town.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I concur with him fully but as I said at the beginning, I am not an expert on the special needs in all the counties. If there is a different need, it is up to you as the father – to use Sen. Kivuti’s language – to come and advise this House. So, for the first nine, what you have said applies. Marsabit County Government to be seated in Marsabit Town, Isiolo County Government to be seated in Isiolo Town, Meru County Government to be seated in Meru Town, Tharaka- Nithi County Government to be seated in Kathuana, Kitui County Government to be seated in Kitui, Machakos County Government to be seated in the proposed City of Machakos, Makueni County Government to be seated in Wote Town, Nyandarua County Government to be seated in Ol Kalou Town, Nyeri County Government to be seated in the City of Nyeri, Kirinyaga County Government to be seated in Kerugoya and not Kutus, Murang’a County Government to seated in Murang’a Town, Kiambu County Government to be seated in Kiambu Town, Turkana County Government to be seated in Lodwar Town, West Pokot County Government to be seated in Kapenguria Town, Samburu County Government to be seated in Maralal Town, Trans Nzoia County Government to be seated in Kitale Town, Uasin Gishu County Government to be seated in the City of Eldoret (Town), the County Government of Elgeyo-Marakwet to be seated in Iten Town, the County Government of Nandi to be seated in Kapsabet Town. Mr. Speaker, Sir, Nandi County Government is unique to the extent that the office of the Senator is in Nandi Hills which is also a town and the office of the Governor is in Kapsabet. So, once this is sorted out, then it will be clear to all and sundry that the headquarters is at Kapsabet. The County Government of Baringo should be seated at Kabarnet Town, the County Government of Laikipia to be seated at Nanyuki Town, the County Government of Nakuru to be seated at Nakuru Town/City, the County Government of Narok to be seated at Narok Town, the County Government of Kajiado to be seated at Kajiado Town, the County Government of The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. As I second this Bill that is well thought out by the Mover, indeed on an issue that may have been taken for granted by many minds of this country, it is important to note the mischief as well articulated and pointed to on issues of the headquarters of counties. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for the opportunity. From the very outset, I wish to thank Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale for bringing out or thinking out this very important Bill because it is going to save us a lot of problems, heartaches and headaches going forward in the county matters. Mr. Speaker, Sir, Section 6 of the Act that we are amending defines Nairobi as the Capital City of Kenya, and it clearly states that Nairobi shall be the place where the seat of the national Government and offices of diplomatic missions will be; and then it says that it is the centre of industry for this country. So, that one is clear and is very important so that, one day and until the law is changed, somebody does not then decide to move the seat of Government from Nairobi to another city. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the importance of this Bill cannot be gainsaid because even as we are sitting here now, you will find that in some counties, some Governors have been mooting with the question of moving national days like Jamhuri Day through the county from town to town so that they can hold the national day at a town of their choice in the counties. I think this will be dangerous, and that is why even in Kenya, we have not had Jamhuri Day being moved from one big town to the next one just to satisfy Kenyans. That is why Section 6 of the Act that we are amending is so important because it defines the capital city of Kenya as Nairobi. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am also very happy that Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale has, in the Schedule, stated the seat of each county government. Before he moved the Motion, I was worried because when he talks about an urban area, it does not define anything at all. When he says that Murang’a County shall be based in Murang’a urban area, it says nothing because the urban area is defined at Section 4 of the Act, and it means “municipality or town.” Then, if you go to Section 9, a municipality which the Governor has the power to confer in consultation with the National Assembly, is a place or a town with at least 200,000 people. Hardly any county in Kenya today apart from Nairobi, Mombasa and Kisumu – and maybe Eldoret and Nakuru – has a population near 200,000. So, none will qualify. Mr. Speaker, Sir, Section 10 refers to townships and defines them as “a place with a minimum of 10,000 people.” Again, just like Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale has said so clearly, a lot of counties do not have centres that have more than 10,000 people. Therefore, in his definition of urban areas, it would have ruled out a lot of counties from having properly defined urban centres, where the seat of power is going to be. So, I want to thank him for bringing out and proposing that it needs to be amended in that respect. But, Mr. Speaker, Sir, there are some counties where we have more than one town which qualifies on all fours; like we have Kiambu, you go to Juja, Thika or to Kiambu Town or to Limuru. You will find that those are towns which could all qualify to be urban areas. Therefore, when you talk about Kiambu urban area, you do not give a definition that is definite and which can be followed. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I rise to support this Motion. This House has heard the name of my county; Kiambu County has come up several times in the course of these contributions of the Mover, Seconder and Sen. Kembi-Gitura. In Kiambu County, we have experienced first-hand what it means to have this confusion; the cost of it and the implications by and large. Mr. Speaker, Sir, this may look like it is a small issue, but it is not a small issue. Since Independence, most of these towns which were then designated to be the headquarters of the counties have grown over a long time. Some of them date as far back as the Independence days of this county; and the import of that is that all along this time, the corresponding services and facilities that support county headquarters and the services it is supposed to offer to the citizens and to members of that county also grew along that county – from hospitals and other offices that support the services in a county – thus moving the county headquarters without proper planning or without that designation has a lot of implications.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to support this Bill. I also join my colleagues in thanking Sen. Khalwale for coming up with this Bill so that proper address and location of county headquarters are known by law. I recall that at the beginning of the year, 2011, the then Ministry of Public Works, where I and Sen. Obure worked together, came up with a similar version, with the blessing of the national Government. The identity of the county headquarters was supposed to be done for which two things would be done. The county assembly premises of every county were supposed to be built by the national Government in preparation for a time when there would be county assemblies in place. There were also supposed to be a county headquarters where the Governors would sit and his Executive. This was supposed to be done by the national Government. The national officials in the Ministry of Housing and Public Works were supposed to drive this. The idea behind that was that we needed to have a county assembly that was a mini version of the Parliament that is here in Nairobi. Today, if you go to all our counties, you will see different versions and shapes of the county assemblies because we did not do what we were supposed to have done. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you Mr. Deputy Speaker. I also rise to congratulate Sen. Khalwale for coming up with these ideas fast and quick. The imperial China has changed its capital many times in its many years of existence. The capital kept on changing depending on the ruler, the dynasty and those who have read China’s history know that in certain instances, complaints have arisen as to why the seat of Government is at one particular place. As I support this Bill, I do not think that it is the intention of Dr. Khalwale not to amend what is contained in the Schedule. What is contained there can be amended if we have a better idea. The main objective is to ensure that in every county government, the headquarters is well known. If you transact business with any county government, you should know where they are operating from. That is why when you register a company; you are required to demonstrate where the offices of the company are. If there are any changes, a notice has to come. For Siaya, I am happy that the seat of government will be in Siaya. Before the establishment of the larger Siaya District, the seat of the county council was in a town known as Ukwala but had to be moved to Siaya for very good reasons. If this is left open, we will not have any stability. In Rarieda, for a long time, there has been a problem of where the headquarters should be. You have said that county assemblies should decide where the seat of the county government will be. What Sen. Khalwale is trying to do is more. Once you know where the seat of Government is, then you will begin to plan and to build the infrastructure. The heart of every country is the Capital. Having been told where the capital of every county is and if you go there and find that it is not properly done and you do not also see the offices of the Government because they are mixed up, what Sen. Khalwale is trying to do may be compromised. If this Bill becomes law, I will hope that in Siaya we will have an avenue where major Government buildings will be constructed since there is space. This is not an urban area with many constructions going on. So, without saying much, this is a Bill which has come at the right time and early enough. This is because if we left it up to probably the end of the tenure of this Senate, other counties may have made decisions which may compromise what we are trying to do. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I congratulate Sen. Khalwale also for having done some homework, because in some of these areas you are never too sure where the capitals of the county governments should be. But I think that he has listened to the people in various areas, for example, in Kiambu where there was controversy. He has decided in this Bill to put the seat of Government where the people of Kiambu want it to be and where it is most convenient. So, we would have had a problem with this Bill if the designated location of county governments would be a matter that he just did without some homework and research. I have tried to go through the list and think of any other area where there maybe problems about where the seat of Government should be, except the two that he mentioned. One is Vihiga and other one is Makueni. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, with those few remarks, I truly beg to support.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to support and thank my Senator. Indeed, it is one year down the line for the county governments. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. First, I want to thank Sen. Khalwale for this idea, which really seeks to fix the legal headquarters of every county. This is timely and it will serve to do away with so many controversies. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, for Trans Nzoia County, Kitale is acceptable to the residents and I have no problem with that. But I think that there is need to do further consultation, because the Constitution says that there should be consultation with the affected people. The residents of the counties should be consulted widely, so that they concur on any headquarters that are agreed upon. We should not look like we are forcing them to accept the current headquarters as they are, because this is the opportunity for them, under the new Constitution, to decide how and where they will fit. There could be challenges with the current headquarters. Some of them may not have land, some were just market centres which have grown and there is no space to even put up structures. If a county can find land that is big enough to start their own Abuja, why not let them do it? Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I agree that in some counties the headquarters are centrally placed, but that may not be the case in other counties. If the people feel that for better services there is a more central place to relocate to and they all agree, why should we not allow them to do that? We should not be afraid to start new townships. For better planning, in the Act that establishes the urban centres and municipalities, a criteria has been placed that there should be 250,000 people to qualify for municipality status. I do not support the idea. We should be forward looking and plan a centre to be a municipality right from the beginning. This is because if we wait for a centre to attain the requisite population and it was not planned to be a municipality--- Some of them are overcrowded. You cannot construct new roads because the reserves were too small. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I note that this Bill also does not provide for any change or future. If there is any possibility of a county wanting to change its headquarters, it should be provided for, so that we do not seem to be fixing it forever. We should approach this issue very carefully, so that we do not pass this Bill and the county assemblies, in their own way, pass a contrary decision. We shall be putting ourselves in a situation where we do not know who is now the decision maker. Will it be the county assembly or us? This is a matter that we need to consult even at the county level, so that a decision that is acceptable is arrived at, so that when we pass this legislation, it will be final and acceptable. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to support.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, first of all, I would like to thank Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale for coming up with this Bill. He thought that it should become law which we all agree and support the idea. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Theirs is invalid.
It cannot be invalid. I am not talking as a lawyer here. My friend can continue arguing because we know about lawyers.
But you have not been---
Order! For the benefit of the House, let me say again that I will not entertain altercations across the Floor of the House. You should address the Chair or rise on a point of order, but please do not altercate across the Floor.
Thank you very much, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I am saying that I am very much aware of the authority of the Senators and I am also very much aware about our responsibilities to the people of this country. Let us not forget that we have 47 county governments and they are provided and protected by the same Constitution which is protecting this Senate. Therefore, my appeal---
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Because the Sen. G.G. is supporting me, I am so reluctant to rise on a point of order.
He is not supporting you. He is supporting the Bill.
Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I would like to confirm to the Member that what he is saying is not true. The hierarchy of laws is such that the Constitution is at the top and that the National Assembly then follow and these other ones are below those levels. Therefore whatever will be decided will not in any way overwrite what we decide here.
What are you quoting?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, with many years of experience in law making---
Order! Do not throw experience at us because we have very experienced people. What law are you quoting, for the record of the HANSARD? The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, that is my understanding of the hierarchy of laws and if I am wrong, I will be corrected up to and including yourself.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Could the time for Sen. G.G. Kariuki be held?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I will not take a lot of time, but I think Khalwale cannot get away for referring to the Constitution. The Constitution also can be changed. It is not a Bible.
Did you that Sen. Haji?
That is what he did!
You must refer to him as Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I will refer to him as His Excellency, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, may I respond to the point of order raised by Sen. Haji? But before I do that, I am not His Excellency; I am Sen. (Dr.) Bonny Khalwale of Kakamega County. I would like to draw the attention of the House to Article No.191 of the Constitution of Kenya which speaks to the conflict of laws. Article 191 (1) states as follows:- “That this Article applies to conflicts between national and county legislations in respect of matters falling within concurrent jurisdiction of both levels of Government”. If you go to (2), it then clearly says:- “National legislation prevails over county legislation”.
Can you, please, finish reading that?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it reads:- (2) National legislation prevails over county legislation if – (a) the national legislation applies uniformly throughout Kenya and any of the conditions specified in Clause (3) is satisfied; or (b) the national legislation is aimed at preventing unreasonable action by a county that – (i) is prejudicial to the economic, health or security interest of Kenya or another county; or (ii) impedes the implementation of the national economic policy. (3) The following are the conditions referred to in clause (2) (a) – (a) the national legislation provides for a matter that cannot be regulated effectively by legislation enacted by individual counties; (b) the national legislation provides for a matter that, to be dealt with effectively requires uniformity across the nation and the national legislation provides that uniformity by establishing – The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
I wanted you to read it so that it is very clear, so that anybody thinking what you are saying, it is not enough for you, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, to quote your experience because there are Senators here who are more experienced than you are. I am sure you know that. Again, in mattes of law, even very experienced people can make a mistake but now you have read the Constitution and that is important. Anybody reading the HANSARD will understand where you are coming from when you say that national legislation cannot conflict with county legislation if it is a uniform law across the nation. It is so important.
I am so guided, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Most obliged.
Thank you. Sen. G.G. Kariuki may go on.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I hope I will be added some time because I was not given enough opportunity by the Mover of the Bill to explain or to express my concern about this matter. To some of us, this matter is so grave that it needs to be left to the people who are supposed to deal with it. There is no harm in waiting to get the county governments to address this House through the Clerk of the Senate to say what resolutions they have passed. In fact, Laikipia County has already done that. This needed to be done, because it will be very difficult for Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale or this Senate to understand the mind of Samburu County without understanding the politics in the county. This is a very highly political matter in some areas. There are some areas like Bungoma, for example, where there should be no interference because they have already agreed but there are some areas that they have not agreed and in fact, it was a contentious issue during the elections. There were questions raised like, where are you going after we have elected you? Where is our headquarters going to be? This is a very serious matter but it can be taken lightly because some of us feel that we are more superior than the county assemblies or the county governments. I agree and you do not even need to read the Constitution to say this. It is very clear that no law shall conflict with the Constitution; always the Constitution will be supreme and we all understand this. The purpose of being a Senator is to make sure that we send harmony from this House and not confusion to the people of Kenya. We should tell the people of Kenya that they have the authority and the freedom to decide and to determine where they want their areas to be. That way, we will appear very responsible. Nothing has stopped the county assemblies from doing their normal business because of this law. If the Mover would have agreed, I would have suggested that we suspend this Bill until we get the support of some kind or the wishes of the people who we are here for. We cannot therefore use our power and authority without consultation and do whatever we think is right for others. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have put forward my case, and I hope the Senate will think twice and consider whether this matter is as simple as we think. In some areas like Machakos and Nyandarua, there are no issues but in Laikipia, there are issues just like many other places because they want to know where they will be headquartered. This matter will see some of the Governors out of their offices in the next elections. It would also be very good if a Senator loses The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will start where the distinguished Senator for Laikipia left. I support the Bill. In doing so, I want to encourage that elected Senators that represent their delegations to this Senate have a duty when a Bill like this comes to go back to their counties and speak with the stakeholders if they so wish and then by the time we go to Committee Stage, we have the liberty to bring amendments. I am sure we are not concluding debate on this Bill today or next week. It will be on this Table for the next couple of weeks and it is always open to amendment at the Committee Stage. This is a very important Bill. Those of us who look at the history, starting with African continent, apart from Nigeria, Tanzania and Malawi where the governments of the day under Mwalimu Nyerere, Gen. Gowon and under Banda decided with the consensus of the nation to have new headquarters in Abuja, Lilongwe and Dodoma. We also have had extreme absurdities. You remember Gen. Mobutu Seseseko of Congo removed the headquarters from Kinshasa and took it to the forest where he was born; a place called Legabolite. Since he was chased away from power, it is now a ghost town. In Cote de Voire, President Houphouet Boigny in what the French call total megalomania took the headquarters from Abidjan to Yamoussoukro where he was born and built an opulence which Prof. Ali Mazrui said: “This is a ghost town”. In ordinary usage of language, a ghost town is a place where people have left. But this particular ghost town is a place where people have not yet arrived!
We are trying to prevent those kinds of things. You have seen the excesses with our own Governors; the Governor of Kiambu is a glaring example. He just wakes up and says “the headquarters of Kiambu County will be in Thika”. Why? Because he was a Member of Parliament (MP) representing Thika; when everybody knows that Kiambu is the natural headquarters of Kiambu County! There are many other examples that we can cite. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we are discharging a very important function in passing this Bill; one, by preventing future conflicts; and, two, by settling matters once and for all. I have seen in some counties where Governors are dismantling the headquarters of their counties. You will find his office is in one town and he is busy building a mansion 50 kilometres away in another town. This is wastage that we can ill afford. So, what I want to encourage – I heard the sentiments of my good friend, Sen. Henry ole Ndiema and Sen. G.G. Kariuki; they are legitimate and valid – that we can bring changes to this Bill because a good idea will always give way to a better idea, especially in terms of counties that have challenges like Taita Taveta, Laikipia and one or two others. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Yes, Kusema na kutenda!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this is what this Bill seek out to do. I really want to encourage-- - For my brother, Sen. G.G. Kariuki, should you need us to work together to carry out an amendment to meet the aspirations of the people of Laikipia, we are available to work together because we cannot, out of 47 counties that we are trying to help, pull down the entire Bill because of one county. It will not be a good thing. Law, like all laws, are not cast in stone. In future, anybody who feels that this change is desirable, come back and we will allow you to change it and do what you want. In fact, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to encourage that in future, those of us who have been good at drawing Bills and bringing them here – like Sen (Dr.) Khalwale and others – we also need to now bring a Bill that conditions county governments to embrace planning. Most of our towns in the rural areas are just growing as slums; there is no planning, there is no sewerage, there is no industrial park, there is no recreation park; there is nothing! Everybody just wakes up and builds whatever he wants anywhere. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Sen. Yusuf Haji.
Thank you very much, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. It will be recalled that yesterday, I really came all out to defend Governors because I believe that sending Governors out of office left and right may not help devolution that we have been craving for. I agree with the “Senator for Kilgoris” about his concern on the behavior of Governors. Truly, some of the Governors are doing things that cannot be allowed---
Sen. Yusuf Haji, who is the Senator for Kilgoris?
It is the Senator for Migori; I am sorry.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, you will agree with me that when we were in Germany, we were told that some Governors had sent ambassadors to represent them there. The Federal Republic of Germany was asking: “Was this a new Government? They were also asking: “Where is this Government from?”
When they were told that they were from Kenya, they were told “Go back to Kenya.” So, these are some of the behaviours that we cannot allow. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
What is it, Sen. Wetangula?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, did you hear what the distinguished Senator said that we put the horse in front of the cart? Is the horse not always in front of the cart?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, that is very trivial, because if I had a slip of the tongue--- I meant what you have said, okay?
So, that is what I am opposing; I am opposing the Senate deciding for the people of the counties as to where they want their headquarters to be. As my brother, Sen. Wetangula, was narrating, we know that it is very expensive to relocate county headquarters and it might not be possible. Even the cases of Dodoma and Dar-es-Salam, up to today, it is headquarters by name; it is only the House of the National Assembly which is there, but all the Government departments are operating from Dar-es-Salam. The same thing is happening in Nigeria. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, on that note, I support and I disagree that Governors cannot just wake up in the morning and say they are going to relocate their headquarters.
I do not want to mention any county; I am talking generally. Any Governor should not be allowed to do this and they cannot get away with it. They must refer everything to the people of the county, and it is the people of the county who can decide whether it is appropriate for them to change their headquarters and whether it is economically viable to do that. Some of the things these Governors are doing are totally wrong. I do not think there has been a referendum or even public participation in Kiambu or any other place to decide where they will want their county headquarters to be. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I, therefore, stand to oppose and say that we cannot, on one hand say we want devolution and, on another hand, we start demolishing devolution. Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Bw. Naibu Spika, leo tumezungumza sana. Leo nasimama kuunga mkono Mswada wa Boni Khalwale. Viongozi ambao wanaongoza watu huwa wanawapeleka watu wao mahali wanapofaa kupelekwa. Watu hawafai kuwaambia viongozi vile wanavyotaka kufanya. Mambo yakiwa hivyo, watu wataanza kuuza chang’aa.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is Sen. Muthama in order to say that leaders should not be consulting members of the public to know what they want? We have to find out from people what exactly they need.
Bw. Naibu Spika, nimesema viongozi wanafaa kuongoza watu wakiwaelekeza mahali wanapofaa kuenda. Sijasema eti hawafai kuwauliza. Hata wakiwa kwa njia, wananchi wanaweza kuuliza ni wapi wanapopelekwa na kiongozi ana haki ya kuwaambia; ninawapeleka mahali mnastahili kuwa. Hakuna mtu anazuiliwa kuuliza swali. Tumekuwa na viongozi ambao hawafanyi bajeti. Pia, hawafanyi hesabu vizuri. Wanatumbukizia wananchi mambo ambayo wanataka yawafurahishe watu wao. Tumeshuhudia mambo mengi. Tusiposimama kama Seneti ambalo lina jukumu la kuingoza nchi, hatutaweza kuyalainisha mambo na kuyaweka vile yanatakiwa kuwa. Ni lazima tuongoze kwa kusema mambo ambayo yanastahili. Bw. Naibu Spika, hivi karibuni, tulikuwa pamoja kule Berlin. Nchi ya Ujerumani iko mbele katika maendeleo na asilimia nyingi mno mbele ya nchi yetu. Tunavyozungumza sasa, mambo yanayoendelea Munich na yale yanayoendelea Frankfurt hayafanani. Uchumi wa Berlin pia hauwezi kufananishwa na jiji zingine. Jiji la Berlin ndio makao makuu ya nchi ya Ujerumani. Dodoma ilistahili kuwa jiji kuu la Tanzania kwa maneno lakini marehemu Nyerere angekuwa hai, kwa vile alikuwa msema kweli, angesema, hata kama hakukosea, alikuwa karibu kukosea. Dodoma, hata leo, bali na kuwa na Bunge la Kitaifa, hakuna kitu kingine ambacho huendelea huko. Wananchi wa Tanzania hutembea sana kutoka sehemu kama vile Dar es Salaam, Moshi na Arusha kuenda Dodoma lakini jiji hilo bado liko chini. Nilikuwa Abuja hivi karibuni. Ukimuuliza Mnaijeria sababu ambayo inayoweza kufanya aende Abuja, atakwambia yeye huenda Abuja kumuona Waziri wake lakini hana sababu nyingine ya kuenda huko. Tuseme ukweli hapa. Magavana wengine wetu wamekosea katika mambo mengi. Mimi ni mwekezaji katika eneo la Taita Taveta. Ukiangalia mahali ambapo gari hukuweka, utashangaa sana kwa sababu mji ambao ulio karibu na hapo, ambao uko 260 kilomita ni Mwatate. Mji mwingine ulio karibu ni Wundanyi ambao uko 85 kilomita. Kuna marumbano ambayo hatujaona huko Taita Taveta. Wajumbe na MCAs wamegawanyika. Gavana anataka kuhamisha makao makuu ya kaunti mahali panapoitwa Mugeni. Mugeni ni 115 kilomita. Kwa sababu yeye ameamua, kuna shida. Hata tukipitisha Mswada huu, hiyo haizuii watu kubadilisha nia wakiona shida. Hayo ni mambo ambayo yanaweza kuzungumzwa na wananchi. Tunafaa kufanya mambo kwa heshima na adabu na tupunguze ndoto za wale watakuwa magavana na kutumia pesa vibaya wakijenga makao ya kaunti mahali wanapotaka. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I also thank Sen. Khalwale for bringing this Bill. Before I do this, I need to seek a clarification with regard to what we said that laws made by Parliament supersede county government laws. This is a matter that concerns counties and in my view, there is nothing wrong in getting views from the citizens of a particular county on where they want their headquarters to be. I am saying this because recently, Sen. Zani brought a Bill regarding mining. We decided, as a Committee, to go round the country to seek views from the people on how they thought it was best to share the resources found in mining. It is a very important issue and there are some things that need to be considered before we decide where exactly the headquarters should be. For example, in Nakuru, we used to have a municipal council and county council. So, before it is decided that the headquarters will be in a particular place, we need to get views from the citizens of that particular county. Is it wrong to get views of a particular county? It is a very good idea for Sen. Khalwale to come up with this Bill, because we need to know our headquarters, but what is wrong in seeking the views of particular counties?
On a point of information, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I can be informed.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, if I may be allowed to inform the distinguished Senator, one, the Constitution says that the hierarchy of laws is the Constitution; laws passed by Parliament, which is the Senate and the National Assembly and then laws passed by the county assembly. So, the superiority runs in that order. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, secondly, it is not the building where the headquarters will be located, but the geographical position in the county that is being talked about. Lastly, the 47 counties were arrived at in looking at the districts that existed as at 1992, regardless. That is why we have Tharaka-Nithi with two constituencies, Nairobi with 17, Kiambu with 12, Bungoma with 9, Kakamega with 13 and so on. It was a capping point and each of those had a headquarters. So, we should not allow a Governor, because he was elected, to arbitrary move that headquarters to wherever he wants. This is what this law is trying to help the country.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am not yet convinced. We are not leaving this issue to the Governor alone. When we talk of a Governor, we are talking about the Governor and the people of that particular county. So, the people of that county should be consulted, so that we get their views regarding the location of their county headquarters. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, with those few remarks, I oppose.
Sen. Chelule, I do not understand you. Just before you sit down, are you seeking a clarification?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I was not convinced by what Sen. Wetangula said. It is a good idea, but what is wrong with getting views from that particular county?
Sen. Chelule, we are not seeking an opinion or clarification from you or anybody else. You are contributing to a Bill and it is your right to support or oppose it. You do not have to agree with anybody. You are following your conscience and belief. So, if you say that you are seeking my clarification, I cannot give any clarification, because I have none. The Bill is in front of you and you allowed Sen. Wetangula to inform you. I do not know if that was even of help to you. But it is up to you really to give your contribution to the debate and then, make your conclusion whether or not you support it.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have made my contribution and oppose the Bill.
Thank you very much, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me the opportunity. I wish to support this Bill and thank Sen. Khalwale for having thought through it. I thank him also for having given Kenyans from all the 47 counties the opportunity to think about it. I am aware that they still have an opportunity to raise issues should they find it that they do not support any of these proposals, even though I know that there are already existing structures. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the reason I support this Bill is because it bring clarity and with clarity comes proper planning. Proper planning is really beneficial in terms of not only looking beautiful, but it also helps people reduce wastage. You cannot waste a lot of resources building. For example, if in the next general elections in 2017, I contest to be the Governor of Siaya and decide to relocate the headquarters of the county government from Siaya Town to Got Asimbo, which is near my home, that would be a waste of resources. This is because come the next elections, there will be another Governor and Got Asimbo is not geographically suitable to set up as the headquarters of the County Government of Siaya. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this Bill will ensure that such mischief is avoided, so that should any particular residents of whichever county feel that they need to change anything because the county has overgrown--- For example, if the people of Kiambu feel that Kiambu Town has overgrown and they need more space and Thika Town is growing fast, then they should be involved. They should debate it. We are so proud of this Constitution because we own it. We read it from all angles and accepted it. So, we are living with it. The good thing about it is that if you feel that you want to develop anything, as a community and friends of the society, we will have a structure where they can come in. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to thank the Mover of this Bill. I am happy that it will still go through the Committee Stage because there is a lot that we need to harmonize. For the short time that we have been here, it has been a learning process. Some of us who had a chance of visiting our counties, we realized that devolution is at work and the Senate has a role to play. For example, when we went to Elgeyo-Marakwet, we could see the inconvenience as a result of the distance between the headquarters of the original district and where the county headquarters is. Similarly, when we went to Kilifi, we found out that the County Assembly is in Malindi whereas the Governor with a half of his officers are in Kilifi. It makes it logistically very difficult. The Senate is witnessing that devolution is at play and maybe we have not put our House in order. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to support the Bill which has come to this House at the right moment. The amendment of the Bill is in order because the Act is seeking to amend what was enacted in 2012 before devolution came into place. This Bill is also constitutional as per Article 110 (a) which requires that we define the location of a county government. In the past, there were provincial and district governments, but now they have been phased out and replaced with county governments. The Bill also seeks to curb those powers by a single person like a Governor who may wake up one morning and proposes to move the headquarters of his county to another area. These towns which have been described in the 47 counties, I think because of their geographical location, a lot of things were taken into account. For instance, the allocation for population services like electricity and water; whether they are in close proximity with the people because we may have the headquarters of a county government located in the interior of the county and it may not be easy to be accessed by the people of the county. In my personal view, we had the local authorities and the municipal councils whose buildings or structures are now not in use. This is what most county governments are using. I think the Governors have in one way or the other found their offices. For those who do not have offices, when this Bill is at the Committee Stage, we could maybe have a list of those county governments so that we can look at them and then come up with a clause which can cater for them. The way the Bill is, it seeks that we describe the location which has already been determined. For those county governments to change this location, it means it will have to come back to the Floor of this House and yet we can handle this at the Committee Stage once we know how many county governments do not have structures in place. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, for purposes of business, it is good that we clearly define the location or the headquarters of a county government because to attract external investors, you have to upload your plans on the world web so that you are easily accessible. If this is not clear, then you may even lose business. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to contribute towards this amendment. First and foremost, I want to thank Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale. Indeed, he thought it wise to come up with this amendment. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to bring to the attention of this House the scenario whereby in the first three or four years, each Ministry was allocated money to construct their own offices. If I use the example of Mumias District, if you visit that town, you will find that it is like a market place. Each Ministry has its own building which they call an office, and we were telling ourselves that this is not proper use of the space and resources. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to support this amendment because I think it is important for effective service delivery for the citizens of the counties. Simply, where officers or offices that offer services to the common citizens of that particular---
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Am I in order to ask Senator---?
How did you rise, Sen. Kittony?
I asked you for---
I did not allow it. You cannot just stand and start raising a point of order! Go on, Sen. Omondi.
I am sorry.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, for your protection. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
No, it is not protection; I am just following procedures. If Sen. Kittony wants to make a point or order, she should do so but she has to ask for it.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I was saying that I think it is going to enable efficient and effective service delivery to the citizens. This is because when we were coming up with the Constitution, we thought of bringing services closer to the people and we were thinking of having the scenario whereby Kenyans could have all their cities close to them. With that proper arrangement, proper delivery and proper development of the county governments, it is going to reflect that picture of a city within the counties. With that, it is easier for the people who are looking for service delivery to get them on time and with a lot of ease. It is also very easy to direct somebody who is looking for services; you are able to see where you are directing the client or the citizen who wants services from a different office away from where he or she is. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I also want to support this Bill because, for example, when one just wants a signature from one office or the other, it is easier to connect from one office to the other because the offices are close to one another. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, with those few remarks, I beg to support this Bill.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, for allowing me to add my voice to this very important Bill. Just like my colleagues, I want to point out that this is very important and crucial Bill determining or doing a definite determination on where the headquarters will be. It is very important also for us to understand what the factors that determine the location of the headquarters of a county government are like the centrality bit of it in terms of location. What is the population like? Many a times in the past, people have created districts where services could not even be accessible in very small areas and, probably, a few people would want to have those kinds of cases. We have heard quite often from the voice of the Senator for Nyandarua about the location of his headquarters. He now has problems because there were no facilities that were put up in these places, and it was done elsewhere. So, it will be important to do a definite determination of where the locations of these headquarters will be for the provision of services. It will also be important for good planning and it will be important for the cohesiveness in the communities that live in these areas. However, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want us to note the current challenges we face. The challenges include the fact that there has been confusion all through on the manner in which subsequent boundary commissions have actually aligned our constituencies in one way or the other. Beyond the boundary commissions, the Office of the President similarly had put Kenyans in a state of confusion in the manner in which they had marked district or divisional boundaries. You will find that the political boundaries are not aligned to the administrative boundaries. These are precautions we need to then as we determine the location of these headquarters because that is going to be what will bring in resistance from communities as we go out to consult. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, it is your time to reply.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Listening to what my colleagues have made by way of contribution, I realize indeed that two heads are better than one. There are many things which were never in my mind when I was making this draft, but after listening to colleagues, they have deepened it and, therefore, made it even more mandatory for me to be prepared when we go into the Third Reading of this Bill, to try and accommodate the positive contributions that they have made. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the first thing I would like to deal with, having thanked the Members for their support on the Bill, is the issue of stakeholders’ participation or consultations. I want to beg my senior, Sen. G.G. Kariuki, Sen. ole Ndiema and my sister, Sen. Liz Chelule, that, indeed, this matter is not coming before the Republic for the first time this afternoon. It came before the country after we went through the First Reading. The Bill was then committed to the Departmental Committee, in this case the Departmental Committee on Legal Affairs and Human Rights. This is in accordance with the provisions of Standing Order No.130, which deals with committal of Bills to committees and to allow for public participation.
On a point of information, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Yes, you may inform me.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am informed that the Committee on Legal Affairs and Human Rights, which was supposed to have considered this matter, did not bring any report to the House.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. My response to that is that by moving this Bill, I was responding to the decision of the Rules and Business Committee. The Rules and Business Committee, having listed this Bill, is satisfied that due process was applied. That is a comment that can be directed elsewhere and not at me. I was just drawing your attention, Sen. G.G. Kariuki, to Standing Order No.130 which says: A Bill, having been read a first time shall stand committed to the relevant Committee without a question being put.” That was done in this House. I have reasons to believe that the Committee worked on it because they invited me to go and make a presentation to them. I told them that I had nothing to add beyond what I had written in the Bill. They then proceeded accordingly. As we contest the possibility that the Report may or may not have been tabled here, all is not lost out. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Sen. Khalwale. I am directing that that the voting on this Motion shall be on Wednesday, 11th June, 2014, not earlier than 3.00 p.m.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Sen. Elachi, you had a balance of eight minutes on this Motion.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I believe that this is something that we have continued advocating for. Indeed, it will be unfair and unjust for students in this country to spend all those years in school and not get their certificates that will enable them advance their education and lives. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, within the Jubilee Government, we have put in new measures to ensure that we support the budget for secondary schools. But as we do that, we need to go a further step and urge the principals of high schools to release any certificates that they are holding. I hope that even the President will give a directive on that. During the Kibaki Government, that was done. Now that we have more colleges coming up, we would wish to see more students enrolling. If we have money set aside to assist orphans wherever they are to undergo education, then we must consider also those orphans who have certificates and want to join polytechnics and universities. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would also like to seek the help of the Members of the National Assembly, because I know that every constituency has a bursary fund. I will give an example of a girl who is at State House Girls High School. I know that she is an orphan and has been going through a very rough time. Indeed, at the moment, she is in arrears in terms of school fees. But the principal has engaged well wishers who can support her, so that she can sit for her examinations and clear the fees arrears. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, there are many challenges out there. There are grandparents who take care of orphans. I know we have a grandparent who is taking care of three orphans who are in Nairobi and just recently, also the granddaughter also passed but is also in arrears. I believe wherever she used to go to school that the principal will be able to just accept that she can get her certificate and move on. It is time as Senators to re-think. Sometimes we blame the Government but sometimes they are taking too long because I believe all of us given an opportunity and where you are serving, you are within that Government. At the end of the day, the resources we consume are resources that taxpayers are paying but are paying through a Government. Therefore, we have that opportunity. I wish the Chairperson of the Committee on Education was here but I believe he will get the message. It is important for him to call the Cabinet Secretary and ask him how we can manage this matter through the principals. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Hon. Senators, I know we have two minutes to go but I will not ask anybody to start contributing at this time. So, I will proceed under Standing Order No.30 and adjourn the House at this time, slightly earlier than 6.30 p.m. Hon. Senators, it is now time for interruption of business. The Senate stands adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday, 5th June, 2014 at 2.30 p.m. The Senate rose at 6.28 p.m. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.