On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is it in order that the Opposition does not seem to take the business of this House seriously, as they were doing as late as yesterday? Could we get some directions or response?
(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki: Mr. Speaker, Sir, while I was away yesterday, some Members of the Opposition raised hullabaloo about the seriousness of Jubilee Senators with regard to the business of the House but looking at the composition of this House this afternoon, I think that you should guide us. I am told that yesterday the Majority side had, at least, a number of Senators. But until Sen. Khalwale walked in, there was only one Senator from the Opposition. I am told that they are calling one another by Short Message Service (SMS.) Is it in order for the opposition to pretend that they take the business of the Senate seriously, while they are not attending sittings, as can be evidenced from today’s sitting?
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I find the contention by my dear brothers on the Majority side very frivolous. This is because, indeed, as I see, Members of my Coalition are actually coming in, as you can see. So, I do not see how the question of being late arises. Indeed, if you might recall yesterday, there were actually only two Member of the other side in the House.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I want to agree with the Senate Majority Leader that this afternoon we are fewer compared to the Government side but that does not in any way say that we do not take parliamentary business seriously. Indeed, we do. I want to apologize on behalf of the Senate Minority Leader; that we are very busy adjusting our alternative people’s Budget, so that as soon as that people-unfriendly Budget has been read, we will then unveil ours in a rally in Migori.
The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Order! Order, Senators! When the Senator for Embu rose, I was expecting to report to the House. This is because you will remember yesterday he committed himself to improve the numbers on his side. Then instead of doing so, he started accusing the other side of what he had been accused of yesterday. Sen. Ong’era stood and also said that what the other side pointed out was frivolous, because the Members were coming. But the time that the observation was made, the Members were not in the Chamber. So, I think that, at least, Sen. Khalwale, has done the needful. It is good just to admit the truth, because the House begins at 2.30 p.m. That is the time that everybody is expected to be present. It is good to admit and the other side admitted yesterday that they did not have the numbers that qualified them for the title that they hold of Majority. We can agree on how to improve on that. So, what I said yesterday remains true even today, irrespective of which side is affected. But I also note, at least, that the Members have been coming in as we have been here. So, I would not want to be so hard today like yesterday. Proceed, Sen. Karaba!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to give notice of the following Motion:- THAT, aware that learners with special needs and disabilities in Kenya are faced with serious challenges including inadequate educational institutions, facilities and specialized teachers to cover all levels of learning; noting that the UN Convention on Rights of Persons with Disabilities became part of Kenyan law in 2008; appreciating that Article 54 (1) (b) of the Constitution gives persons with disabilities the right to access educational institutions and facilities that are integrated into society to the extent compatible with interests of such persons; further appreciating that Article 53 (1) (b) of the Constitution provides for free and compulsory basic education to every child; noting that the Basic Education Act, 2013 emphasizes the need to provide equal opportunities for education to all children including those with special needs and disabilities; the Senate urges the National and County Governments to take immediate measures to mainstream education and training for learners with special needs and disabilities by establishing and equipping at least one institution for children with special needs and disabilities in every county.
(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I rise pursuant to Standing Order No.45 to give the Statement relating to the business of the Senate next week. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
What is it, Sen. Lenny Kivuti? The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. While appreciating the business of the House laid on the Table by the Senate Majority Leader, I am very concerned that whereas the National Assembly has allowed the Cabinet Secretaries (CSs) to answer question and make Ministerial Statements in the National Assembly, I would need your guidance as to whether a similar arrangement can be made for the Senate so that the kind of questions and statements that give us problems such that we keep on repeating, going back to Committees to go and get more answers, it may be prudent that CSs are allowed – I do not want to use the words “to be grilled” – but to make statements and answer questions, if not on the Floor of this Senate, but somewhere within this Senate. I need your guidance, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
I am just wondering, Sen. Kivuti, how does that relate to the Statement by the Senate Majority Leader?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I was trying to get your guidance since we have just finished with statements, and the business which is being brought by the Senate Majority Leader does not seem to have cognizance of the fact that we are having so many statements and questions which keep on going round and round. Your guidance is very necessary on this matter as a matter of the way our Standing Orders go.
Okay. Yes, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to commend the Senate Majority Leader unreservedly. The way he has starting leading us is very impressive, at least over the last two weeks.
In fact, when you look at the Order Paper today, we now have as many as 10 Bills that we lack the time to deal with. Mr. Speaker, Sir, for those who thought that the Senate was just an appendage in this Parliament; they now have an opportunity to start seeing us working. We would like to encourage the Senate Majority Leader. PING PONG ON CONCURRENCE OF BILLS BY THE OTHER HOUSE But having said that, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would also like, with your permission; I am still waiting for the communication from the Chair, where you promised us that a Bill that went through all the three stages of reading in this House and which was taken to the National Assembly for concurrence; and then the National Assembly started a new process of exactly a similar Bill which has never come here. We hear from other quarters that, that Bill has eventually gone to the Office of the President, which has returned it to the National Assembly with a memorandum. We would like to know all these unconstitutional movement of Bills, including the unconstitutional behaviour by the Head of State in terms of the way Bills are assented to, what is the official position? The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, those are quite heavy matters that you are raising. Maybe you need to look for the proper procedure; canvass them and you will get the necessary sponsors. I think that is it. What is it, Sen. Sonko?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, is it in order for Sen. Daisy to dress in party colours, yet this is a national House?
I do not think we have discriminated against any particular colour.
There is nothing to indicate to me that Sen. Daisy is in party colours, because I would equally imagine that if we took that to its logical conclusion, the dressing of Sen. Mike Sonko himself, the hairstyle, the way you put your shades on the head can be attributed to some party. So, let us not go that way.
Sen. Kiraitu Murungi. Are the microphones still not working? Approach the dispatch box, Senator.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I rise to make a request for two statements from the Chairperson of the Committee on Roads and Transportation. CURRENT STATUS OF ISIOLO AIRPORT PROJECT Mr. Speaker, Sir, request is hereby being made to the Chairperson, Committee on Roads and Transportation for a comprehensive Statement from the CS explaining: 1. The current status of Isiolo Airport Project 2. The cost of the project, the contractor and the cost of the delay in completion of that project. Thirdly, we would like to know the amount of money allocated to the project this financial year and whether Kenya Airways will make regular commercial flights from Nairobi to Isiolo once this airport is completed. STATUS OF MIKINDURI-MAUA ROAD The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Chairman, Committee on Roads and Transportation. Who is the Chair of that Committee? Sen. Chiaba? Vice-Chair? Any Member? Sen. Keter
Mr. Speaker, Sir, we will inform the Chair so that in the next one or two weeks, we will have it ready.
Is it next week or next two weeks?
Two weeks, because the Committee will be out next week.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, we have no problem waiting for two weeks so long as the Statement is comprehensive and it comes under the hand of the Cabinet Secretary.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, we will bring a comprehensive Statement but as the rules are, it has to be the Chair of that Committee who will deliver it unless it has been changed but if the Senator so wishes we can invite him to the Committee.
Indeed, Sen. Keter you are correct. I made a ruling on this matter; the Statement is being sought from the Chair of the Committee. The Cabinet Secretary is just but one important source of that information. So, a Member cannot demand that it should be under the Cabinet Secretary. So, the Statement will come in two weeks time. POLICY ON USAGE OF INDIGENOUS LANGUAGES IN PRIMARY SCHOOLS
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. It is about the Chairman of the Education Committee, Sen. Karaba, who is my very good old friend and who usually sits next to me. I requested a Statement from him as the Chair of the Education Committee on the use of indigenous languages in our primary schools, which is covered both by the Constitution and the Education Act. We wanted to know when that policy is going to be implemented and how much money the Government has allocated to it so that the programme can start next financial year. He has ignored that request. He has failed, neglected or otherwise refused to provide that Statement. Could the Speaker take some action against him?
Let us hear from your good neighbour first.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is surprising that the Meru King is trying to insinuate that I refused or ignored but that is not true. I had indicated to him that the matter has since been taken to the Cabinet Secretary. I have been to Jogoo House House twice seeking for the answer. That is the reason why we need to know who exactly should be blamed in case of a failure of that nature. We are appearing that we are errand boys because every time we have to seek answers for such requests. So, I am doing all I can to make sure that I get the answer as soon as it is brought to the office of the Clerk but for now, I have not received an answer from the Cabinet Secretary. That is the position. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. My point of order relates to the request that the distinguished Senator for Meru made that he required the Statement to have the hand of the Minister and your ruling goes counter to a ruling you made earlier in this House that you are not going to receive Statement written and signed by junior officials in the Ministries who cannot be subsequently called to be interrogated by Committees in case the answers are inadequate and that such Statement should have the hand of the Minister himself or herself. Your response to Sen. Kiraitu appears to reverse your earlier direction which we were very happy with.
Sen. Wetangula, your only salvation is in the use of the word appears because I can assume that it is highly subjective to the way you view it. There is no contradiction in what I have said now and what I said that time. The issue of the signature is different from demanding that the Statement comes from the Cabinet Secretary. I have said that the Statement is from the Chairperson of the Committee. The Chairperson is at liberty to explore all sources of information available to him or to her. I said that the Cabinet Secretary is definitely a very important source of that information. So, when the Cabinet Secretary submits a report to the Committee, that report must be signed by the Cabinet Secretary. I have been clear all along.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. There is a matter that is bothering the Chair of Education Committee and I am sure it is bothering all other Chairs of Committees. The Cabinet Secretaries may delay or refuse to co-operate for some reason and the Chair would be roasted roasted for not doing his job, and the Committee would be embarrassed here as the country watches. There must be a way in which the House can assist Committee Chairs in case of a Cabinet Secretary who ignores or refuses to co-operate for unspecified reason so that we can come back here and say that we have tried everything that we could do as a Committee. Can you now help us so that we can find a way in which to deal with it?
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I know the Cabinet Secretary for Education and is a man who respects the Constitution and the law. I am very surprised that the Chairman of Education Committee says that the Cabinet Secretary has neglected or failed to provide that Statement. I believe our friend, the Chair, has not made these requests in serious terms that would make the Cabinet Secretary see the seriousness of this matter. Could the Chair give guidance and the deadline when that Statement should be delivered and if it is not, then the House can consider what further steps to be taken? This also bring to the fore the issue which was being canvassed by Sen. Kivuti earlier on that maybe time has come for us to revise our Standing Orders so that the Cabinet Secretaries can also appear before us and answer questions directly to the Questioners in this Senate like they are doing in the National Assembly.
Sen. Murungi, just come back to the Dispatch Box, because you will need to respond. Just refresh your memory, when did you seek the Statement and when was it due?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, if you look at the Statement tracker, the Statement was sought in April and was supposed to be responded to in that month but May has passed and June is in the middle. So, it is quite clear that there has been unreasonable delay.
Okay, I have seen it. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Speaker, sir, would I be in order to kindly request Sen. Murungi, otherwise known as the King of Meru, knowing very well that the Cabinet Secretary comes from the Kingdom of Meru and maybe when he says the Cabinet Secretary has not received a serious request from the Senator of Kirinyaga on this matter? Maybe he is speaking from the point of knowledge in that capacity. Would I therefore be in order to request him to kindly request in his own way as a king to answer a polite request from the Sen. Karaba? You know Sen. Karaba is a very polite and does not want to fight. You see this big-bodied people are normally very soft and polite.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Sen. Kiraitu is just not an ordinary politician in this country because there is quite a number of firsts about him. He was the first person from Mt. Kenya area to be elected on a FORD-Kenya ticket. Sen. Kiraitu broke ranks with Mt. Kenya and joined us in the second liberation. Sen. Kiraitu was the Minister for Constitutional Affairs in this country. So, when he says in a very flowery language that the Cabinet Secretary for Education respects the Constitution and is very competent in all those words that he used, is he in order to mislead this country, because the country can think it is the Senate speaking when the country knows that this Cabinet Secretary has not delivered on laptops for Standard One children? He has not been very friendly to universities and has been forcing our children to pay extra fees. Is he in order to mislead the country and use such a flowery language on the Floor of this House?
Order, Senators! Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale is completely out of order. I do not see how laptops and teacher, the lecturers’ salaries is related to the respect of the Constitution. Let us get the final one from the Chairman himself and then we conclude this matter.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, for all intents and purposes, it is important that we make this very clear. When a Statement is sought by a Member through the Chairman of a Committee, what is expected of the Chairman to do so that he can bring the answer? What is the procedure? The moment it is sought, it is not the responsibility of the Chair to go looking for the Minister. The moment it is sought here, it is supposed to be relayed to the Minister through the Clerk’s office, then we get the answer in our office which we read to the House. That is the procedure, otherwise---
Order, Senator. You have made your point. Let me just clarify a few things that have been sought by Senators. I think it is Sen. Kivuti who started, canvassed by Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, contributed to by Sen. Kiraitu in terms of the difficulties expressed by Chairs in getting responses. That matter is under active consideration. We are looking at how we can make those responses more accessible and thorough. So, discussions are going on between Parliament and the national Executive. I would also like to urge Chairs that what is happening in the case of this particular Statement is where if you look at the time, this was April, the Chair should do a follow up. If that response is not forthcoming, you have the right to lodge your complaint either directly to the Cabinet Secretary or through my office. Failure to do so, you summon the Cabinet Secretary to the Committee. You should also inform the House and tell us your frustrations so that we can assist you in good time. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would be out of the country leading another team. Could you add me one week?
Order, Chairman. Are you going with your entire Committee?
Okay, it will be done if that is the way.
Delegate. I think that is the end of Statements. Next Order.
Who had the Floor? Sen. David Musila had a balance of 10 minutes but I do not see him in the House. We can get any other Senator who is interested in contributing to the Bill.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for the opportunity to contribute to this very important Bill. I wish to congratulate the Senate Majority Leader for bringing it for debate in this House. I think we all know the havoc that overdrinking has caused in this country. You just need to go to a market place or any small village and you will see all the young people, those who should be providing productive labour gathered there from as early as 9.00 a.m. or 10.00 a.m. drinking. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Order, let us consult in low tones so that the Member who is contributing can be heard.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The greatest effort that Kenyans are making and, of course, the Government, is to reduce or eradicate poverty. We want to reduce poverty in our country and we cannot realise this goal as long as all the productive age of our young people are lost in drinking. They are the ones who are supposed to participate in farming and other productive activities that are going on in their areas. There is still a lot of land which is lying idle. You will find an old man who has sons with land. However, the land is not productive because the people who are supposed to work on it, not just the sons to the owner but also the young villagers, do not want to do manual jobs and would rather spend time in chang’aa dens. This is an area we all have to work very hard to deal with. I call upon NACADA to put in more effort, the chiefs, DOs, the administration to see that we reduce the scale of drinking in this country. We all saw how many people died in various parts of the country, spreading from Kiambu, Embu and Machakos after drinking illicit brew which had been produced. You wonder how widespread the distribution of this illicit brew is if it reached all those areas of this country and killed people. That shows that somebody is sleeping on their job. Somebody is not doing their job. We have officers who are charged with this work. We have chiefs and District Officers (DOs) who are supposed to ensure that this kind of drinking does not go on in our villages. They should ensure that all bars are licensed and that all the illegal chang’aas are eradicated. Owing to
, the police, chiefs or whoever is charged with this, it is common knowledge, are bribed and do not do what they are supposed to do. We want to call on the Government and the Ministry in charge, the chiefs and the DOs. We appreciate the move that was made to sack chiefs who were serving in areas where the deaths occurred. We would like to see the same happening in areas where deaths have not occurred. We cannot wait and act only when deaths occur. We would like to see villages, townships and cities cleared of this undesirable practice. This can be done if our officers, whether in the police or chiefs did their work the way they are supposed to do it. I want to commend officers who use the alcoblow to arrest drunken drivers. At least, we see people being arrested and charged. We are told road accidents have gone down. That could be one of the contributing factors. We want to see other areas also put that kind of effort. As a nation, we cannot afford that level of drinking. We know that the World Health Organisation (WHO) also has rules on control of alcohol and the platform for this. I would like to call upon the Ministry of Health to rally the Cabinet Secretary to follow that and to make sure that we domesticate the WHO law here in Kenya. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I rise to support this Bill. In so doing, I would like to thank the Senate Majority Leader for providing good leadership to this House as it was recognized by Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale earlier on. When you read this Bill, you will see that there is a lot of learning that is reflected in it. We want to thank the Senate Majority Leader for his able and learned leadership that has been demonstrated in this Bill. In terms of drafting this Bill, I can see that there will be very many amendments. Had the Emeritus Attorney-General been consulted; he would have proposed that the old Bill be repealed and replaced with a new one because of the extensive nature of the amendments which make it untidy. However, the substance is good. That can be looked into later. Time has come for Kenyans to recognize alcoholism as a national disaster. Every home and village is affected by this disaster. The disaster is costing us very heavily. I am happy that the Bill has recognized alcoholism as a disease of the mind. We have the Mathare District Mental Hospital for those affected by diseases of the mind. However, we have a lot of sick people in the villages that we are stranded with. We do not know what to do with them. Recently, we met our Bishop who was saying that we are powerful men. He said that the Senator, Governor and County Commissioners are powerful. However, how come we are defeated by a few walevis in the village who are terrorizing people begging for money and yet there is nothing we can do about it? This Bill is in the right direction because it provides us an opportunity to do something about the problem. Just like we have the Mathare District Mental Hospital, time has come for us to establish alcoholism rehabilitation centres in all the counties. I am happy that a Fund is already being established. The money we collect from fines and licences could be enough without affecting the usual allocations from the Treasury to establish rehabilitation centres in all counties. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is it in order to allow a very senior Member of this community of Kenya to attack legitimate business and actually almost destroy it? What comes from the Senate is a very powerful voice of a very senior Member of this community attacking legitimate business of people buying and selling brew and using the emotion of illicit drinks which everybody actually says they are illicit anyway, that we do not want to talk about them. Illicit things should be dealt with illicitly. But now we use that emotion of people who have taken illicit drink and have died, and we are now attacking serious business of him and me who love the single malt 1821. I do not know whether he takes it. ( Laughter)
Mr. Speaker, Sir, we should not discriminate. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, can you protect me from Sen. Kajwang? I know he is trying to impress those people who vote for him.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, that is my job; to protect my voters, but not the drunkards. If I look at this Bill properly, it is not about alcoholism and how to deal with alcoholism. This Bill is about control of liquor and now he is talking about emotional points like alcoholism which are very complex. This is because you cannot legislate against alcoholism because that is somebody’s weakness or problem and it is even medical. You cannot legislate against it unless you say that you ban the consumption of alcohol. But if you are talking of control or consumption of alcohol, you cannot bring these big terms like alcoholism. Is he in order to bring this moral and emotional things which are not in the Bill?
Order, Sen. Kajwang. If there is anybody becoming emotional on this subject, it is you and not Sen. Murungi. Alcoholism must start from somewhere and I thought Sen. Murungi disposed the matter by saying that you can do it through what you call the illicit liquor or you can actually even get it from the normal ones. He even referred to professionals who have suffered and that is a fact. So, I think Sen. Murungi should now be protected from Sen. Kajwang and I am going to protect Sen. Murungi from you.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for Sen. Kajwang to mislead the House on alcoholism and yet it is in the Bill? It says that one of the objectives of the Bill is to ensure that alcoholism is declared a disease. Did he read it?
Proceed, Sen. Murungi!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I know many Senators want to contribute. The law is not enough. The amendments that we are pursuing in this House will not be enough to solve this social problem. I think there is need for us to start a national campaign and support NACADA beyond the law. I think time has come for us to involve other social actors; the religious organizations and women groups which have done quite a bit, if you can remember the group that we saw in Kangemi. Over and above the law, we need social mobilization. We need to be able to campaign against alcohol just the way we are campaigning against HIV/AIDS. It is because this country will lag back and all the reforms in the Vision 2030 will not happen because we cannot develop this country with drunkards. We cannot develop this country with sick and dying people. Alcohol just means doom. Alcoholism is dark and a retrogressive step for this country. With those few remarks, I beg to support.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. In line with my work as a Minority Chief Whip, I am concerned about the numbers of Members in the House to pass the two Motions. So, would I be in order to ask the Mover to be called upon to respond so that we can vote? The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Order, Sen. Muthama! That procedure is not followed that way. It is not because of your work. You have to determine it in another way. Even your own Leader of Minority who has assigned you that work is in total disagreement because he wishes to contribute. So, Sen. Wetangula, you may contribute.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Sen. Muthama, the distinguished Senator for Machakos is very sorry for that unhelpful interlude. I want to thank Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki for bringing this Bill in this House, but I also want to oppose it for several reasons. First, if the Senate Majority Leader wanted to enhance the powers of NACADA, give them a fund and deal with the issues to do with NACADA. He should have been courageous enough to amend the NACADA law and not this. Secondly, I hope the distinguished Senator for Tharaka-Nithi has read the history of the war against alcohol in the United States of America when the State came down with brute force to fight consumption of alcohol, more particularly in New York and Chicago. What emerged is the now famous phrase boot legging. You appear to be controlling something and you send it under and create even more dangerous trends of consumption with more dangerous consequences. So, I would have urged my brother to consult widely on this before he brought this Bill here. Reading through the Bill very quickly in the last ten minutes, I can see the hand on one Mututho in this Bill. This is a man who soldiers in a hate campaign against anybody who consumes alcohol regardless of what happens after consumption. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I say this because this afternoon, the Cabinet Secretary for Finance is reading the national Budget across the road and one of his biggest sources of income; the second largest source of revenue for this Government is alcohol.
On a point of information, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
It is okay.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for allowing me to inform my leader one or two things. I have just known this afternoon that in Nairobi alone, pubs and restaurants and entertainment joints registered ones with the association are 30,000 units in Nairobi alone. The youth that are employed in those units are 1.5 million plus. So, when we talk about the industry, we must be very careful not to sometimes destroy the goose that lays the golden egg.
Thank you for the information, Sen. Kajwang.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for Sen. Kajwang to come and mislead Kenyans and this House with cooked bogus figures? Could he table the source of these figures he was reading in this House?
(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Mr. Speaker, Sir, further, is it in order for my brother, Sen. Wetangula and company to use extraneous matters to debate a Bill that is doing very specific things without addressing those specifics? This Bill is not about alcoholism and revenue, it is about specific things like when you should advertise. Those are the things we should be speaking to. I suspect without really imputing improper motives that somebody somewhere outside this House could be feeding the kind of unsubstantiated information that we are now receiving here via SMS and twitter conveyed through Sen. Kajwang and company. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, that is imputing improper motives on colleagues and it is unacceptable.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. First of all, I am not registered on those things called twitter and facebook. But is it in order for the Leader of the Majority, a professor of law who should protect my human rights to suggest that I can only speak here because somebody is feeding me with some unsubstantiated facts and statistics? Another senior lawyer who was also a professor at the university is calling my statistics bogus without having any statistics himself. Is it in order to allow the Government side to speak carelessly?
Order, Sen. Kajwang. First, you cannot ask Sen. Murungi to confirm something that he does not have and he has not given. It is you who gave the figures and that is why the source of the figures is needed.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, he did not ask me to give the facts. He said that they are bogus. So, he made a substantive statement.
Hon. Ethuro): After he said that, then he challenged you to substantiate.
No, no, no. He only said that I was giving bogus statistics. If he asks me to substantiate where I brought them from, I could very well have said that.
Now do it!
You have not raised a point of order. Do not talk to me across the bench.
Order, Senators! That matter should rest there. I only want to make the observation that it was actually Sen. Wetangula who went on the offensive by attributing the source of the Bill to not Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki, the Mover, but to some gentleman called John Mututho. At that time, nobody challenged him. So, I think Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki in return also decided that since other sources beyond what you see are required, he postulated that Sen. Kajwang may also be receiving some current information.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, if I may proceed, you probably were not watching the whole House. When I mentioned the name of Mututho, you should have seen the molar tooth of Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki. He was so happy that actually I know the facts. I was pointing out about the law being used to come down heavy on inevitable habits of the population. All you do is you send them under. I mentioned boot legging in the United States of America (US). When the State purported to outlaw the consumption of alcohol in the US, it went up by more than 100 per cent. Profiteers joined in, criminal gangs joined in and all manner of people joined in because in many countries people enjoy doing what the State does not like. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I had said that if the professor wanted to amend the NACADA law, he could have had the courage to do so instead of purporting to give more authority and more money to NACADA through a different law when they have a law that governs them. More importantly, consumption of alcohol per se is not an issue in this country. Out of 40 million plus Kenyans, the number of Kenyans who consume alcohol cannot be more than 15 to 20 per cent. You cannot call that a crisis. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I did not want to disrupt the Senate Minority Leader, but there is a fundamental statement he has stated here which is misleading the House. This Bill is not dealing with illicit alcohol alone. It is dealing with cases where you buy genuine alcohol, then you over drink when you are driving and then you kill yourself or people. There are situations where people drink genuine alcohol and they become alcoholics and we want to declare them as patients. So, it is not true to say that the Bill is just focusing on illicit brews. I think that is a misleading statement.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, these two young Senators cannot pretend that they can read this Bill better than I have done; I have read the Bill.
Order! You made an assertion and they are responding. What is it the other second young Senator?
(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): On a point of order Mr. Speaker, Sir. I am proudly young and competent Senate Majority Leader. Is it in order for the aged Senator to pretend that for ten minutes he has gone through my Bill which has taken months if not more than a year to reflect on, and now purports that miraculously, he understands it so thoroughly as to mislead this House especially with the statement he made here which is misleading that drugs and psychotropic substances are not banned simply because they are already illegal? That is why we have the Narcotic Drugs and Psychotropic Substances Act of 1995. Is it in order for the aged Senator for Bungoma County to mislead this House?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, when you are old you are wiser and less excitable than what we are seeing. I hope the interruptions, my time has been saved. In any case, I am entitled much more than the minutes you are giving me. You should know that.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The Minority Leader, who claims to be an aged Senator and therefore, wiser, the other day he was calling another old person “Baba”. Did you see him threaten the clerks at-the-Table?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, now there is no doubt that the Government brigade is conspiring to interrupt my contributions and you have to protect me. I can assure you---- Th
Order, Senators. You will be protected but the fast line of defense is for you to protect yourself from some Statements that invoke immediate response.
If you do not hear me now, you will hear me at the Committee Stage. We will throw it out.
Order, Sen. Wetangula. You cannot direct the clerks-at-the- table, that one is a fact. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
I did not direct them. I only asked that as a Minority Leader, I am entitled to more time, through you.
You cannot also ask them.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, let me carry on. In this Bill, for example, they are talking about the content of alcohol in a drinker to warrant disqualification from driving. It is foolhardy to say that a person who has consumed two or three beers is drunk and incapable of driving. It depends on the individual. There are people who would get drunk by just sniffing alcohol. There are people who will get drunk by just taking one beer, others by taking ten and others who do not get drunk at all. So, we cannot throw a blanket net and say that anybody who has taken some quantum of alcohol is incapable of driving. That does not make any logic both in law and in fact. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Government license people who run business of selling alcohol and we have enough law, including the law he is purporting to amend that regulates drinking hours, we have a law that regulates the age at which people can buy alcohol. The problem is not the law, the problem is corruption in this Government. Where we have seen these days the people armed with television crew, go to position themselves outside pubs with instruments called alcoblow, humiliate people regardless of whether they are drunk or not. That is a toll station and the purpose is to frisk money from the public. The purpose is not to control consumption of alcohol. That is why I talked about Mututho. He tried in the last Parliament and failed to bring a law that two days to elections there should be no consumption of alcohol in the country. That is an absurdity of the highest order. Now it has come through Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki. This is the same issue; that two days before elections, no consumption of alcohol. Is there any evidence, scientific or otherwise that people who drink cannot vote or do not vote? Is there any evidence scientific or otherwise to show that people who drink a day or two elections do not vote properly or at all? There is none. Why do we want to kill entrepreneurship simply because we are going to an election? It does not make sense. If this Government is idle and has nothing to do, they should not bring us these Bills that are an assault and an affront to the freedom of Kenyans. If one is concerned about illicit brews, when did we get visited in this country by illicit brews that are crippling and blinding them in the last about ten years? Were people not drinking from colonial days? Did you hear at any time, in Turkana County or anywhere else, 20 years ago that people were drinking and saying “hata mkizima taa nitaendelea kunywa tu” because they have lost their sight? There was no such thing because of greed which we can control through public education. Another reason why this is happening is due to corruption. People who have been given a chance to license are not doing the right thing. It is because we have made this country be a country of rich people who can enjoy their single malt as you hear and purport to bring here a law to deny the ordinary man the opportunity to enjoy a drink. Where I come from, we brew busaa and I can confess here that I grew up because my mother was brewing and selling
to raise money for my fees. I also know Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale. I have been to his home. His mother brewed and sold busaa and chang’aa to take him to school. This also applies to many others. Why do we now want to criminalize entrepreneurship? The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. There is no doubt that Sen. Wetangula is a great debator but once in a while, he loses it. Is it in order, for example, for the Minority Leader to say that there is a possibility that this Bill or any other legislation that is before this House that has come here through the effort of various Members of this House that it has come here through a conspiracy? This is not the first time, Sen. Wetangula is using this term. I remember we had a fierce exchange here in the last session for using demeaning, outrageous and unfounded terms against other Members. So, where does conspiracy come from? I propose that the Senator for Bungoma County be named for using unparliamentary language and abusing his position and the privilege he has as Minority Leader in this House to actually demean and bring down the dignity of the Senate.
Order, Senators. I tend to agree with the Majority Leader. I think the Minority Leader, you have persistently, instead of addressing yourself to the clauses in the Bill, you are all over the place looking for some conspiracy theories. You are trying to describe some other motives that are not part of the memoranda to the Bill. You can still speak without really imputing improper motives on other Members and in particularly the Mover of a Bill because this time it is the Majority Leader and next time you might wish to bring a Bill. Do we really wish that we suspect every intention of the Mover?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will consult widely before I bring it. I will consult everybody including him and I can tell you he did not consult me. Not that he had to but he did not. Mr. Speaker, Sir, Clause 34 purports to amend Section 47 so as to outlaw giving away free alcoholic drinks in promotions. How can we do such a thing? How can we pass such a law? Marketing includes and is founded on promotions. What is the difference between Safaricom giving away free handsets when they are promoting their business and Kimbo giving away sachets of Kimbo to mamas in the villages or Royco giving sachets to mamas in the villages and breweries going for an organized and structured promotion and telling people “this is a new drink, test it and you may like better than Tusker” How can we ban such a thing? The next day, this Government will walk to breweries and saying “haujalipa ushuru.” How are they going to pay taxes to keep the economy running if we stifle their business? These are the things I am pointing out. The fact that I have not said “clause this or that” does not mean that they are not in the Bill. I have read it properly and thoroughly and you know I read well. Mr. Speaker, Sir, how can we, for example, say in Clause 31----
Even Senators who are incapable of debating are all over a sudden very active. You heard the distinguished Senator for Meru wander around for ten minutes without any reference to any clause in the Bill, praised Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki because they come from the same place and sat down. He did not mention anything in the Bill. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. We know the Minority Leader is a very learned and intelligent person, but if he has not read or does not know, he should just sit down. He does not have to talk. He did not interrupt me when I was contributing to say that I am not referring to the Bill. He was very impressed by what I said. So, is he in order now to change his mind and tell Kenyans the opposite?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, trust the distinguished Senator for Meru to bring commic relief to the Floor of the House. If there was anything that could have been brought to deal with this Act that he is purporting to amend, is even to abolish the Alcoholic Drinks Control Fund. We do not have to burden Kenyans anymore than we have already burdened them. We were told here that alcoholism is a disease, so let it be dealt with through medical channels. Mr. Speaker, Sir, if you read this, it is like saying that when you go to court with an offence and you are fined, that money remains the money of the judiciary. It is like saying that if you go the Ministry of Lands and you appear before a tribunal and you are penalized, that money belongs to the department of lands. You cannot run a country like that. That is why Parliament passes the Budget. That is why it is important that if it is NACADA, they should submit their budget, it would be looked at by the National Assembly and be given money to run the outfit. You cannot say that you are going to license drinkers and those who run pubs and those who distribute alcohol, then that money goes into a fund called the Alcohol Drinks Control Fund. We are completely losing the picture and we are completely losing the national fabric. Even the idea being floated that we are going to have authorities, some at the county, some at the national level, this does not add up. Devolved functions include regulation of consumption of alcohol. While it is a national problem, I would want us to understand that Wajir where my distinguished deputy comes from does not have a drinking problem. So, we cannot come here and purport to pass a law and say that it is going to uniformly cover the country. Garissa does not have a drinking problem. Murang’a has a serious drinking problem; Narok has a serious drinking problem near Mai Mahiu where people drink and get blind. In my county, people drink busaa and there nobody who has ever lost sight for drinking busaa . So, let us go to the issue.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for the Minority Leader to mislead the House that the reason why we pass a national legislation is unless every single county has that problem? I do not know how in Kisumu poaching of elephants is a problem but we have a national legislation that deals with that issue.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, you know very well that we do not have a county committee for controlling poaching of elephants in Kisumu. We do not have a county committee in Kericho to control the poaching of lions because they are not there. I want to point out what is in the Bill---
Order, Senators. When you make a law against something, it does not mean that all of you can commit that particular crime. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, if you want to see my line of argument, it is important---
I am appreciating your line of argument, but if the problem is not in Wajir, you cannot tell me that you cannot legislate.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the problem that I am trying to cure is that when you say there shall be county and national authority on alcohol, even in Wajir where there is no alcohol, they will set up an authority and consume public money in the name of controlling alcohol which is not there.
That is a point.
What I would have expected the distinguished and learned Senator from Tharaka-Nithi to bring to this House is to encourage county assemblies to pass laws to regulate licensing, consumption and so on to do with alcohol. If I turn up with this law in my county, people will think I have gone bananas because we do not have any such issues. I have already, as I expected all Senators here to do, addressed my county assembly and told them the following: They started drinking in clubs and shifted from private homes to market centres. They are regulated so that people drink at given hours, as licensed by the law. If it is from noon to 5.00 p.m. as our grandfathers used to do, they would then go to the market and take four cups of busaa and walk home. What happens today is that drinking places, in spite of the law, open at 9.00 am and do not close at all. They station somebody out there and leave the door open to---
How do you open and do not close at all?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, what I mean is that they only close when the last patron leaves. As long as there is someone buying alcohol, they do not close. This is a failure of our system. I am not attributing this to the Jubilee Government which has only been in office for one-and-a-half years. This is a systemic problem that has run through this country for several years. All we need to do is to find out how to regulate the situation. If the Inter-Continental Hotel only sells alcohol at particular hours, why do we allow people in Korogocho, Mathare and other areas to drink for as long as there is no policeman to chase them away? That is what we should be addressing. However, saying that we do not want people to drink is not a valid argument. I want to ask the distinguished Senator, who sponsored this Bill and accepted to carry the Bill to this House to rethink his position. If you want to know what I am saying, just look at clause---
Sen. Wetangula, I have directed you not to impute improper motive. In any case, you cannot describe the other Senator as distinguished and you describe him as a conveyor or mover of things.
I want him to struggle and agonise with the irony. If you look at page 48, you will see what I am saying. The National Alcoholic Control Fund shall be administered by National Authority for the Campaign Against Alcohol and Drug Abuse (NACADA) and not the Accounting Officer. How did NACADA find its way into this Bill when it has an Act of its own which could have been dealt with? There are many more Senators who want to speak. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Since this is a House of record and what the Senate Minority Leader is saying goes to cast doubt on our responsibilities as a House to protect counties, had the Senate Minority Leader found ten minutes to read the Bill, he would have seen a clause regarding that. He is the one who has said, before the House, that he has ten minutes to do it. He is on record and the HANSARD can bear me witness. Had he had time to read it, he would have seen a clause that marries Article 191 of the Constitution that says that county legislation prevails over this legislation. That means that it takes care of the areas where county legislation is put in place to prevail because this is a county function. This is there and I submitted it in my discussions yesterday.
Mr. Speaker, Sir that is logic, upside down. There is no way that county legislation can prevail over municipal legislation. That is perverted logic. Municipal legislation is the one that prevails over county legislation. What our distinguished colleague is saying is that county legislation will prevail over municipal legislation.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, Article 191(4) of the Constitution says that county legislation prevails over national legislation if either of the circumstances contemplated in Clause 2 apply. So, there are situations where county legislation prevails over national legislation.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it can only do so if it is a narrow legislation that deals with issues that are of county and not of national agenda. That is why he is not reading beyond what he has read. That is selective quoting of the law. Clauses 37, 38, 39 and 40--- The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Order, Sen. Wetangula. We cannot leave that at that level. The question – you were very eloquent about it – is about municipal legislation. When it is pointed out there are circumstances, where county legislation prevails over national legislation, you should not have an argument over that. You were arguing about the principle. If you want talk about the circumstances, go ahead. However, of more concern to me – you have used words that are against Senators and you are now harming the institution itself. You are saying that this Senate cannot purport to legislate for so-and-so and cannot be considerate and cannot assume this. Surely, what is your role? This is a legislative proposal. There is a Mover proposing his views and your job is to counter them. You are still a Member of the Senate and it is the final outcome that will determine our position.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I cannot propose this Bill without putting forward arguments. My arguments are not in general terms. My arguments are only in relation to this Bill. That is why I saw you nodding when I said that we cannot and we should not purport to do work that county assemblies can do. I also said that we cannot come here and purport to regulate the lives of Kenyans because as protectors of counties and devolution, we must make life easier in the counties and not make draconian laws that will make the police raid our constituencies and harm people even more.
I was only limited to that. Your boisterous laughter and smile is an appreciation of what I am saying.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, since the Senator for Elgeyo-Marakwet wanted to set the record clean, in the same legislation that he is referring to, in the issue of conflict of laws, it is clear that national legislation prevails over county legislation and “a” and “b” give the reasons. It goes as far as No.3 and tells us that the following Commission is referred to in Clauses 2. Could you tell us what you make of that and especially in the meaning of the hierarchy of laws?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is an issue that requires more time than just reading the provisions. However, what is more important is that Clause 2 is the rule. The exception is Article 191(4) which says that whatever is contemplated in Clause 2 applies. If you go to clause 2, you will see that it talks about situations where the national legislations prevail. If the circumstances provided there--- You can read subclauses 2, 3 and so forth. I wish we had time to go through that. But the point I want to make before the Senate Minority Leader is that it is not true that in all situations, the municipal law prevails over the county law. That is clear. There are situations where the county law prevails. If you take time to read this Bill, you will see that this is provided for. Where there are situations where there is a specific county legislation on regulation of alcohol, then that regulation prevails over the national legislation. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, we are not interpreting the law. However, if the distinguished Senator read that Article carefully, 191(1), (2) and (3) which set out the conditions that are referred to in Clause 2, he would realise that I am right and he is wrong. But we are not here to debate Article 191.
Order, Sen. Wetangula. We are not debating Article 191 but there was an assertion that you made which Sen. Murkomen was trying to counter. I want to dispose of that matter now. You are wrong and he was right. That has been confirmed by your able lieutenant known as Dr. Khalwale who was satisfied by that expiation from Sen. Murkomen.
He was not. He was opposing it. Mr. Speaker, Sir, there is what we call narrow interpretation of law and the broad interpretation of the law. What Sen. Murkomen is doing is to very narrowly interpret the Constitution. However, that is not an issue. I will move on.
Order, Sen. Wetangula, you better move on.
If you looked at Article 36, you would see that it amends Section 50 to empower the Authority and to recommend to the Cabinet Secretary the list of officers to be appointed as authorized officers or persons for the purpose of this Act. I have already said that regulation of consumption of alcohol should be left to the counties. Why should the Cabinet Secretary sitting in Nairobi be the one to gazette and authorize officers to regulate alcohol in the counties? Why do we have county governments? We have two levels of government in Kenya. What is the role of the Governor of Kajiado if he cannot appoint people to regulate alcohol consumption? Does that issue have to come to Nairobi? This should not be accepted.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I do not want to interrupt my senior. However, these are issues that will go on record. The reason why the Bill is coming into this House is for us to turn provisions that were of the national Government to counties. That is why the Bill says in several situations; where it reads District, read it as County. The county takes a primary role in those matters. Even if Sen. Wetangula is unhappy with the Bill, the primary role of this House – Sen. Khalwale said yesterday that he would bring amendments – should be to bring an amendment to strengthen the responsibilities of counties in dealing with alcohol. That is what the Bill is attempting but it is not as strong as it should be. It is removing districts and replacing them with counties.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is what the clause says; Clause 36 seeks to amend Section 50 of the Act so as to empower the Authority to recommend to the Cabinet Secretary the list of officers to be appointed as authorized officers for the purpose of this Act. That is what I am saying. Why should the Authority recommend to a Minister sitting in Nairobi when in the same Bill, the Mover has recommended that the Authority shall have a county level and a national level? The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The authorized persons contemplated by the Act include people who are going to carry out enforcement. This also includes places where testing can be done. This is national in nature and has nothing to do with interfering with county responsibilities.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, is that an argument, a point of order or a point of information?
That ideally should have been a point of information.
Which I would have rejected. Clause 43 is tautologous.
(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
I have hardly said anything.
(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Just as a matter of procedure, I know that the lights are not working. However, I was just wondering whether the Senate Minority Leader has limitless time because he has spoken for nearly an hour now.
That is not true. When I raised a question, they jaded me for directing Clerks. Now, they are doing exactly the same thing.
The Senate Minority Leader definitely does not have unlimited time. However, he has quite a lot of time. He has one hour. He started 20 minutes to 4.00 pm. So, he still has another 10 minutes.
I intend to exhaust it. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will not stand here, praise you and sit down on the basis of regional affiliation.
Sen. Wetangula, you may be mindful that the language of the Standing Order on the limitation of debate says that the Senate Majority Leader and Senate Minority Leader may each speak for a maximum of 60 minutes. The word is “may” and “maximum.” I think I have instructed you. One, you do not have to speak and two; you do not have to exhaust. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
And when I choose to speak, I have the maximum time. Right?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, in the Fourth Schedule, so as to specify the prohibited substances under the Act, there is a new Fifth Schedule in the Act so as to provide for the laboratories recognized for the purposes of ascertaining alcohol, I have a problem with this. You and I have been in Parliament for a long time and when you want to make a point, you first read the offending clause then you analyze it and then you say why it is offensive like I am about to do. But my good colleagues here are giggling and obviously excited about small things.
Actually, they are appreciating what you have just described.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is one thing that again shows the reverse thinking of the sponsor of the Bill because the national laboratories under the Constitution remain the preserve of the national Government. If there is a killer brew in Murang’a, Mai Maihiu, Nyeri, Homa Bay or wherever, we should not pass a law that allows substandard laboratories to be established in the counties to purport to test alcohol or any offending substances. If we want standardization in the country, that must be done at the centre and any alcohol that renders Kenyans blind or kills them must come to the national laboratories. To allow different levels of testing is, in fact, to exasperate the problem because what will happen is that where the counties are not able to set up a laboratory, they will hire a quack next door who runs a third rate laboratory and whose verdict on any alcohol or substance will depend on who pays him. This will even be making the problem bigger. If we are going to have 47 laboratories around the country, each laboratory will be passing the test in accordance to who visited who and so on. Let us just have the national laboratory because Nairobi is not too far from everywhere. There is air transport and if there is a substance that is offensive, bring it to Nairobi and test it. If we have the culprits, jail them after due process. If it is a drink that we have to ban, let us ban it but let us not go that route. I am sure they can now appreciate that we have read through this. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to end so that I can give time to others to contribute by saying the following: If there was any Act to be amended, it was the NACADA Act. The NACADA Act is what gives the Mututho team or whoever will be there--- Mr. Kaguthi was also there and the other day, they expelled a man from western Kenya in order to leave Mututho with all the authority. If this was to be done, then that was the Bill to look at. If the philosophy of the Senate Majority Leader in bringing this Bill was born and predicated on the recent events of reckless consumption of alcohol and the casualties that are coming out of it, it is noble. But this is what we call doing the right job wrongly because he should have looked at the other laws that are available in regulation of alcohol. Some of the things being purported to be done, if you look at the NACADA law, they are already provided there. Like I said, and I want to end on this note, this country does not suffer from a shortage of relevant laws. This country suffers from the lack of will to enforce the law. That is our biggest problem. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have told you many times before and I can tell you for free here now that I can assure that if you think yours truly had anything to do with Tokyo, I am ready to walk on my own to court to be prosecuted. I am ready to do that. Those who speak with a tongue in the cheek, chiding me on matters that were investigated by Parliament, the Controller and Auditor-General, KACA and the inter-Ministerial committees and found that I knew nothing and did nothing about that transaction---. When Sen. Murkomen with a cheeky smile looks at me and starts talking about Tokyo, I feel very sad about it because he has a duty to respect his seniors.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I thought he was just enumerating a list of scandals or purported scandals, some of which like the standard gauge railway as purported was cleared by Parliament, many people were cleared by Parliament on Goldenberg, many people were cleared by various institutions on Anglo Leasing and I thought he was just listing. Event the maize scandal was cleared by Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale in Parliament.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
It was defeated in Parliament. Let me complete! Mr. Speaker, Sir, I was just saying that as Sen. Wetangula was enumerating a list of purported scandals, I said Tokyo and it is only him who raised his urn up and said that Wetangula was an issue but I did not say it.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I just want to set the record clear and without any prejudice. While discharging my duties as the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, I approached this House in the last Parliament and we lost the vote. I did not clear anybody and so to give the impression that I cleared the perpetrators in the corrupt deals of maize is to assume that I was part of that group of parliamentarians that eventually defeated my Motion.
That was a different time; let us deal with the issues now. You know how to deal with the past. For now, we are here.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, as I conclude, I invite these young Senators to go and read all the reports around the Tokyo scandal. I want to make it very clear that the distinguished Senator for Meru there was forced out of office on the alleged Anglo Leasing and we stood with him and we knew he was innocent and he was declared innocent and he is sitting here. He is a close friend of mine. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Hon. Senators, since there is no other contributor, I will ask the Mover to reply.
(Sen. (Prof) Kindiki): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I thank you. I also thank all my colleagues who have contributed to the Second Reading of this Bill. I want to thank profusely those Senators who have supported this Bill. At the same time, I also want to thank those who have supported this Bill with qualifications including the Senator for Kakamega whose only main problem was the issue of drinking within Parliament precincts and the premises of the disciplined forces. Let me also thank those who have opposed this Bill---
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The Senate Leader of Majority is saying that my only problem with this Bill which I qualified was my refusal that we cannot remove the exemption for drinking at Parliament and in the military barracks. He should not give that impression because I spoke for the whole period qualifying why we needed to amend. I have many reservations including a provision here that bars be opened from 5.00 p.m. to 8.30 p.m. when we are still in the gym. We have not even started to go drinking. I cannot support that. I cannot---
You have made your point.
(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I appreciate. All that I said was that the Senator for Kakamega County actually supported this Bill, seconded this Bill but said that he had issues about a few things some of which he has mentioned. In fact, for the comfort of Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, I want to say that I even thank those who have totally opposed this Bill from the first clause to the last one including my brother, the Senate Minority Leader, because really that is the purpose of the legislative process. The purpose of debate is to either support legislation or oppose legislation so long as that is done within the confines of a justified and reasoned opposition or support for legislation. This Bill is about a number of things which have been brought out by various Senators who have spoken. We are not going to allow people to sell liquor in our country outside primary schools and secondary schools when our daughters and sons are watching. It does not matter how much money you are making. We will not as, a nation allow, you. If you must sell that liquor at whatever time, our children in schools and colleges must not see what is happening because in consumption of alcohol, I am told---
On a point of information, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Mr. Speaker, Sir, the point of information is rejected in totality. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Sen. Wetangula): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for Mover of the Bill to single out those who sell alcohol when in fact, part of the problem is that those who license schools do not even check whether the schools they are licensing are close to already established drinking or alcohol places or not?
Order, Sen. Wetangula, that is completely unnecessary because he did not say he was being exhaustive, he was just singling one aspect.
(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I speak as a legislator and a parent. My 12 years old daughter, Imani, and her sister, Neema, who is six years and all the boys and girls of their generation, we want to give them time until they reach the age of maturity and decide whether they want to take alcohol or they do not want to take. We are not going to allow advertisements and glorification of alcohol throughout the day. We are not really against advertising, but we should wait until Imani and Neema and the children of their generation have gone to bed. Then from 9.00 p.m. or 10.00 p.m., you start advertising your alcohol because the Senate Minority Leader will still be in Westlands imbibing alcohol with his friends and his age mates until after 1.00 a.m. We must regulate.
On a point of information, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to be informed by the Senate Minority Whip, one of the most respected Senators in this House.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to inform the Senate Majority Leader that the bars around learning institutions do not just sell alcohol to students, but even cocaine. So, they are just killing and spoiling our children.
(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Thank you, Sen. Muthama. Time has come when, as politicians, we must be able to balance our different responsibilities. We must not be misguided that the only thing that matters in our lives is the votes we get. I am a Senator for those who take alcohol and also a Senator for those who do not take it. I am going to balance and say that it is okay if you choose to take alcohol but there is a line I will not allow you to cross. If that costs me votes, so be it. I will go back to the university and lecture law. I think this House requires sobriety. This hyper protective approach where you think everything has to do with votes must be rejected. We must go beyond that. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I agree that there are some provisions in this Bill that need to be looked into afresh and that is why we have the Committee Stage. For example, when I discussed this with the Seconder of the Bill in the Second Reading, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, he actually convinced me that when you say to a villager that if you are caught with alcohol related offences, we are going to fine you Kshs10,000, you are actually sending that person to jail, because not very many people who vote for us can afford Kshs10,000 as a fine. That is the kind of feedback I would appreciate so that if we lowered that maybe to Kshs3,000 or Kshs2,000 and then you give a bit of flexibility where if you pay a fine, that should be punitive enough and you can continue with your business. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker Sir.
What is it, Sen. Amos Wako?
Mr. Speaker Sir, is it in order for the Senate Majority Leader to mislead the House in stating that I quoted a few verses in the Bible and more or less endorsed drunkenness? I said that the first miracle of Jesus Christ was to change water into wine. He challenged me and said that the wine of those days was not alcoholic. I want tell him that the Bible, in fact, confirms that the wine of those days was alcoholic. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Speaker, is the Senate Majority Leader further in order to purport that the wine of those days was not good, while even in the Old Testament, Noah and his three sons consumed wine? It was so potent that that he was found in his birthday suit. The fate that befell his sons depended on how they treated him when they saw him. Was that not potent wine?
(Sen. (Prof). Kindiki): Mr. Speaker, Sir, in reply to the matters raised by the two Senators, I will just say one thing; they have just confirmed my thesis. For example, the story of Noah is a sad story for parents and children. A father, a grown up man with sons and daughters, because of alcohol, can remove his clothes and expose his children to an eternal curse. This is the more reason why even today, we should control ourselves by making sure we do not drink in Parliament. Parliament is a working place. Why do you want to sell alcohol during working hours in a work place, or even sell it at all? The Military Barracks is a working station for our disciplined forces. Why do you want to sell alcohol in a working place? Mr. Speaker, Sir, this Bill is well intended. This Bill does not criminalise drinking. It says that if you must drink, drink at the right time, with the right people and do not carry your children to bars. These days, especially the younger parents – this is a big abomination - I have seen fathers, people with their spouses, carrying little girls and boys and entertaining them the whole day in a bar and these children are watching horrible things that should only be left to parents and adults who can choose what to see and what not to see. So with those very many remarks, I want to say that despite the vehement opposition by the Senate Minority Leader - who is not even reading from the same scripts with his troops because some of the troops from the Minority Side like the Sen. Muthama – are completely sold out that this Bill will help this society. I wish the Senate Minority Leader the best of luck in his opposition.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is the Senate Majority Leader in order to say that he knows from the bottom of his heart that I am supporting this Bill when I did not even contribute on it? My quietness speaks volumes. It is wrong for you to conclude. Wait for the time when we will vote on this Bill. The only thing that I agreed with him is that we need to control use of alcohol in this country
(Sen. (Prof). Kindiki): With the remarks of the Chief Whip, that we need to control alcohol in this country, this Bill which is coming for Second Reading is called the Alcoholic Drinks Control (Amendment) Bill. I beg that this Bill be read the Second Time. I beg to move. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
What is it Sen. Kindiki?
(Sen. (Prof). Kindiki): Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker. I am rising under Standing Order 54(3). It is evident that we do not have the numbers for purposes of voting for this Bill, so, I request that you use your discretion under Standing Order No.54 (3) so that the question be put the day following today; and in which case, you can nominate a specific time when voting will take place so that the different whips can mobilize Members so that we have adequate numbers to carry on with the voting.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker.
Yes, Sen. Muthama.
Mr. Temporary Speaker Sir, the Senate Majority Leader is not giving reasons why the voting cannot be done today. He has not indicated whether this is a county Bill or whether it is just a postponement which does not have supportive ground. He should give reasons why the vote cannot be called for.
(Sen. (Prof). Kindiki): Mr. Temporary Speaker, I have given the reason. We do not have the numbers. The assumption is that this is a matter concerning counties. However, that discretion on whether this is a Motion concerning counties or not is not my discretion. It is the discretion of the Speaker. So, you can guide us accordingly.
Thank you. Sen. Lesan.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, along the same lines really, all Bills that are considered in this House concern counties. Therefore, there might not be any necessity to just indicate that. All the Bills we consider in this House concern counties. So is the Minority Whip in order to mislead this House that we could at one point in time consider Bills that do not concern counties in this House?
Hon. Senators, first of all, I would like to point out that this is a Bill concerning counties. I am inclined to agree with Sen. (Prof). Lesan that, indeed, you cannot have a Bill in this House that does not concern counties. The fact that the Speaker has already admitted a Bill to be debated in the House means that it is a Bill concerning counties. Our Standing Orders require that before any Bill or Motion is put on vote, it is the responsibility of the Chair to remind you which I will. This is a Bill concerning counties and, therefore, pursuant to the request of the Senate Majority Leader, I would like to rule. I do not have a lot of leeway because the Standing Orders talk about the next day. It does not say give me the leeway to appoint any other day other than the next day.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, on the same issue.
Basically the Standing Order No. 54(3) limits that discretion of the Chair to the next day which in this case will be on Tuesday next week. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, what we are doing is just academic. We have precedence where the Rules and Business Committee and even the Speaker from the Chair ruled that all matters concerning counties, once we finish debate, there is no contemporaneous vote. They are simply passed onto something else so that they are listed for voting together with others. That is what we have been doing. In fact, the Mover did not even have to say that this is a matter concerning counties and so on because we have precedence and ruling from the Chair that whenever we finish debate on a Motion or a Bill that concerns counties, we simply put it aside and wait for it to be listed for voting on an appropriate date and we used to vote – you will remember - on Wednesday afternoons.
Well, procedurally, we might have that precedence but our Standing Orders are very clear. They say the next day. It is something that we might have to consider substantially. However, in keeping with that Standing Orders, I would like to rule that on both business and Orders No.s 12 and 13 be deferred until we vote on them on Tuesday, 17th June, 2014 next week at 3.00 pm. We will vote for both the business listed under the Orders number 12 and 13,
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. The Senate, just like the National Assembly, is a House of traditions, strong traditions and etiquette. Did you notice that the Senate Minority Leader, who for all purposes is the leader of the Opposition, has approached the Dispatch Box and spoken from the position of the Government Side? Is it permissible in our practice that the Senate Minority Leader can speak from there and the Senate Majority Leader can speak from our side? Is it our practice? Could we set the record clear? We are very much worried that we might have lost our Senate Minority Leader.
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Thank you, Sen. Khalwale. I can see the Senate Minority Leader is scared away from a discussion he has been having with Senate Majority Leader. There was a ruling from the Chair, in the past, that it does not matter which side a Member sits. The sitting arrangement is not confined to a Member sitting in a particular area. I have been notified that business under Orders No.14 and 15 are also deferred until a day and time that will be decided by the Rules and Business Committee.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.
Okay, proceed with your point of order.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. Last night, I was rang by the Office of the Clerk and asked to prepare myself with regard to Motion No.15, just in case the preceding Motions did not take off. So, if for any reasons Order No.14 cannot take off, I have not been consulted on whether I am ready or not.
Order, Sen. Khalwale. Whereas you must be ready, any time, as the Bible says; “you must be ready for the coming of Jesus.” The fact that you were notified by the Clerk’s Office, this is a House of traditions and rules. Under Standing Order No.39 (2), I am empowered to alter the business of the House in the best interest of the House in a reasonable manner. For that reason, I would like to invite the Chair of the Standing Committee on Information and Technology to proceed with the next Order.
Mr. Chairman, you have 13 minutes left.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for that chance to continue with debate on the Motion regarding education, science and technology and particularly so, in the various---
The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, did you see the distinguished Senator for Nandi walking from this side, standing near the mace and purporting to bow near the Chair after which he went across? He has to go right to the door and bow to the House.
Sen. Sang, there is a reason why there is a mark near the door. So, you know what to do.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I thought that you---
You must show obedience.
Order, Sen. Sang. The Chair has ruled. That is an order for obedience and not for debate as the Senate Minority Leader has said.
Thank you very much, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. This debate started yesterday. It was well moved by the Senator for Kwale, Sen. Boy Juma Boy, and seconded by the Chairman, Mutahi Kagwe. Quite a number of Senators contributed towards it. I am here as a Member and also Chairman of the Committee on Education contributing also towards this very important Motion on the County Oversight and Networking Engagements (CONE). This is a Motion that reports on the Committee’s visit to the counties of the former Coast Province; Lamu, Kwale, Tana River, Mombasa and Kilifi. A lot of work was done by the Committee by trying to engage the ECDE class teachers and we saw a lot. This is in light of what is already enshrined in the Constitution; trying to act as an oversight authority particularly to the counties. The county governments should also feel that there is a Senate which is to oversight. We travelled under very harsh conditions. We slept in very odd places at times, particularly in Tana River and we saw what people in these places go through. My Committee noted quite a lot of problems and we came up with recommendations. That is what is contained in the Report. I hope that most of you have read that Report which is moving to a very great extent. If we looked at this Report, we would come up with very many recommendations. That is what we are asking the Government to look into. The Government should come up with recommendations so that we have the ECDE children and teachers doing what they are supposed to do. There is lack of ECDE classrooms and some children even study under trees. We did not see a lot of improvements and there are no physical facilities. There were no playing fields and toilets. To a great extent, most children were neglected by teachers. This is because the teachers there are not respected. There are no regulations from the Ministry and this is quite wanting particularly in Kwale and Tana River counties. We noted that a lot of these children sit outside and wait for their seniors in classes two, three up to eight to accompany them on their way back home after they have done their school work. This is what we call wasted manpower and time for children. This is very serious. We are, therefore, recommending that the history that has existed about people in the coast is seen as an example of a proactive historical development. Historians like Krapf were The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I am sorry to interrupt mwalimu . However, is he in order to distort facts of history? Ludwig Krapf, a German man, who came to the coast of East Africa in the 16th Century, was a missionary. He was not a historian. He was a missionary and he doubled very modestly as an explorer. He was not a historian and it is good for us to have our historical facts right.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, one thing I know is that the history he is giving us is also wrong. He did not come here in 16th Century. He came here in the 18th Century. To be specific, he was here in 1848. That is exactly what happened.
Sen. Karaba, all communication should be through the Chair.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, we had quite a lot of historical engagements across the coast which they should have used to develop schools. However, that was not possible. We noted that most of those schools have been neglected for a long time. We are asking residents of the area to seriously consider the plight of the young boys and girls who stay in those classrooms unattended. In this case, we are asking the county governments to provide toilet facilities. In some areas, we noted that children did not even have toilets. Several bushes were designed for the girls while others were for the boys. Teachers had makeshift toilets which were a preserve for adults; men and women. There is a very serious omission of order and that is what was exposed to us; hence, the Report exposes all these things. We also noted that the teachers who teach in these areas are of low cadre and are not trained through any ECDE programmes. Some of them are school dropouts from various levels and, therefore, cannot articulate what is taught at the ECDE classes. This is a very serious omission. We have made a recommendation asking the Teachers Service Commission (TSC) to step in and employ the necessary teachers so that teachers who are trained from various institutions can teach the children there. We also noted, as we went round, that there was a meeting for all County Executives Committee (CECs) members for Education drawn from various counties in the Republic. We had a meeting with them in Mombasa and we also met the Chairman of MCAs attached to the education sector in various counties. We exchanged ideas with them and they came up with a recommendation that it is important to have EDCE classes started as a matter of urgency. We made a recommendation that the best classroom in a school should be that of the ECDE level. The classroom should be friendly to the growing children so that they grow liking school and education. This is important and the Government, therefore, should step in and provide the teachers. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, for giving me the opportunity to make some comments on this Report. I am one of the Members of this Committee. I had the opportunity to tour the coast with this Committee. First, I want to congratulate the Committee for the work that they have done in visiting and interacting with the people of the coast in matters education. We visited the five counties at one go and this, I think, is a very good thing in terms of Committee work. Similar problems facing similar counties can be addressed together. This visit, which went through five counties, was very useful in highlighting the problems of education and finding a way of tackling them. The problems we found in the four counties were more or less similar. The only difference was that they were different in terms of their extremes. Tana River County, in reality, has very severe problems which affect education and other sectors of the economy of those counties. They were very apparent in terms of educational facilities which we could see needed to be addressed to provide education. I want to commend the County Executive Committee member (CEC) for Education in Mombasa County, one Mtana Lewa, a very young brilliant man who has looked at education at the coast in totality and drew out a programme which was very impressive. They have already designed how they want to carry out their education. In Mombasa County, ECDE means education of a child from the age of one to eight years. That involves, therefore, children in classes one, two and three. This is in conformity with what education psychologists tell us. Children in standards one, two and even three are still in their early childhood in terms of their education and probably require similar things like the ones between ages three to six. Therefore, I thought that this programme was very commendable. We recommended that other counties look at this arrangement in terms of education so that they produce similar students or standards of education with regard to the same level, throughout. We also saw fairly serious problems at the coast. One of them, of course, was the dwindling number of students. The dropout rates in all the counties of the coast were higher than any other part of the country. I think there are several reasons why we should try and rebut this. One of them was the poverty levels. Although we do not have the figures, this is like a paradigm which arises from different standards of education. There is a high population and, therefore, high level of poverty at the coast. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to speak on this very important Report. It is very important and in fact, I want to congratulate the Committee on Education. I think they have been very proactive and within a very short space of time, they have criss-crossed Kenya really knowing the problems being faced by the county governments, the people of this country, the teachers and the students at the grassroots level. I really want to commend you for that. The importance of this Report as I see it – I do not come from the coast region – as I go through it, I realize that what they have recommended for the coast region as solutions to the problems they are facing are really cross cutting issues. You could remove the names of all these counties and put there Busia County and the Report will still be valid for Busia County. I want to focus on the ECD Programme which the pre-primary and, of course, a function under the Fourth Schedule of the County Governments. When I was doing my campaign and so on, that is when for the first time I came across the problems being faced by the ECD teachers, what is happening on the ground and so on. That is a much neglected area. Although it is a function of the county governments, the national Government cannot wash its hands off it particularly in terms of setting the education policy and the standards which will apply throughout Kenya, which is a function of the national Government, what I get from here is that there are really no standards in the counties and teachers teach what they want. Some counties, particularly Lamu, do not have a single college for training of ECD teachers. That is why for Lamu, you can even read that the teachers there cannot control their pupils and lack the skills to teach the children. At least in Kwale and Mombasa, there are some training colleges for the ECD teachers, but Lamu and other areas, there is nothing. This means that any person who has either failed the examinations or any person who went up to Standard Seven and could not sit any examination at all, has his only hope as an ECD teacher at the local level. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Mr. Speaker, Sir, thank you for the opportunity to contribute to the debate on this beautiful Report from the Committee on Education, Information and Technology which is one of our committees which has done very well in terms of keeping the spirit of devolution alive. I say so because this is one of the Committees which has been conducting countywide tours across the country, which for me is the game changer in the way Parliament relates with the people we represent. I am very certain that if the Senate continues, through its committees to increasingly engagement with our counties at their level and where they are, we are going to make the Senate the engine and the apex body that will drive devolution to the next level in accordance with the Constitution. It is for this reason that I want to commend the Chairman of the Committee, the Vice Chairman and all the Members for doing a good job and coming up with a great Report which I have had the opportunity to read through. Allow me to say from the outset that when I looked at the objectives of the visit, I thought that perhaps the Committee was a bit ambitious. But reading through this Report and the recommendations, I am happy that those broad objectives were realized and this is a Report that we can use as a House either to generate legislation or policy that will help the drive the early childhood education, information and technology to the next level. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, this visit was about assessing the progress that counties are making in the area of ECD and also in the area of training especially at village polytechnic level. The other objective was to look at the challenges that various counties are facing because counties are not equally placed. The circumstances in the ECD situation in Nairobi are very different from the ECD situation in Tharaka-Nithi, Busia or Garissa. I say so because whereas some of the recommendations of this Report look like general recommendations, a recommendation like the need to ensure that we tackle the problem of hunger among our young children in early childhood education may look like a simple matter maybe in some parts of Nairobi County. But in some counties, unless we compel the Government to ensure that at least for the nursery school and early childhood education that they are fed in school, we are exposing these children to grave risk of dying from hunger or not even attending early childhood education at all. This is a Report that can help us tackle some of these problems by looking at the experiences of different counties with regard to early childhood education but also with regard to training at polytechnic and technical training generally. What has come out from this Report as I look at it is that there has been a perennial problem of poor pay for ECD teachers yet these are the people we entrust with the most vulnerable stage in the learning life of our children. So, I think there is need for a policy on remuneration as the Report suggests the way we compensate those who teach our small children. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of information, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I would like to inform my very good friend that starting this night, the Committee on Education will proceed to Mombasa to draft a Bill aimed at regularizing ECDE teachers, pupils and schools in the Republic. This one is likely to be tabled here next week.
(Sen. (Prof) Kindiki): Thank you for that information. That is very encouraging and it is the direction that we should look at. I would also like to speak to drug and substance abuse. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for the Senate Majority Leader to say that in western Kenya there are great people called the Luos? Are the Luhyas not classified as great? The other point of order is that the western part of this country belongs to the great Luhya nation. The other side is called Nyanza. Our children should know properly where the Luhyas come from, the Luos and so on. Is he in order to mislead young people that great Luos come from western?
(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. On greatness, all Kenyan communities, big and small, many and few are great. On the other issue, I did not mention Western Province. I talked about western part of Kenya which includes Nyanza and the great County of Busia, where Sen. Amos Wako comes from. The things we are struggling with in this country – I am persuaded - can be confronted in the first six years of school. You can kill tribalism by the time a child is in Class Six and there will be nothing like tribalism. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, with regard to corruption, instead of using the initial years of childhood as it happens in the oriental countries, Japan and China, these are countries that have done so well. The first five years, the Japanese child is taught how it is great to be Japanese. They are taught the history of their country and where they have come from; the bad, the ugly and the beautiful part of their history. They are taught how you can be a proud citizen of Japan even if you do not like the people who are leading at that time. That is where the difference is. That the country, therefore, becomes bigger than the person leading it. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the other day, I was in London. Some British people will tell you that they do not like Prime Minister David Cameron. I did not say all of them but some. However, even if he is the Prime Minister, Britain is greater than Mr. Cameron, and greater than the political party he represents. The things built around the greatness of The Great Britain and Japan are instilled in young people. You cannot wait to catch fifty year old men and women through a Truth, Justice and Reconciliation Commission (TJRC), to teach them tolerance and forgiveness when they have known vengeance, violence and tribalism all their lives. That cannot work. However, these children can be taught tolerance and the National Anthem. If you ask an average university student today studying Law, Medicine or Commerce to sing for you the third line of the second stanza of the National Anthem, you will realise that they do not know it. Some know, but the average students do not know. I say this because nations are created. I know, as a country, we are struggling to create a nation called Kenya, where any person or citizen; whether from Mandera, Makueni or Homa Bay know that they are citizens of a great country called Kenya. However, we are using the wrong interventions. You think by-passing the Ethics and Anti-Corruption Economic Crimes Act (EAEC) Act of 2003, you can change the mindset of a sixty year old person who has known that he can never thrive until he is corrupt. What do other countries do? The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Hon. Senators, since there is no other business and no other Senator willing to contribute, and pursuant to Standing Order No.32, I interrupt the business of the Senate. The Mover of the Motion will be called to reply when the Motion next appears on the Order Paper. The Senate now stands adjourned until Tuesday 17th June, 2014 at 2.30 p.m. The Senate rose at 6.30 p.m. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.