Hon. Senators, I have a short communication to make. As you are aware, the House has concluded the Second Reading of the following Bills:- (1) The County Governments (Amendment) Bill, Senate Bill No.1 of 2014 by Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale on Tuesday, 17th June, 2014. (2) The Alcoholic Drinks Control (Amendment) Bill, Senate Bill No.5 of 2014 by Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki on Tuesday, 17th June, 2014. (3) The Statute Law (Miscellaneous Amendments) Bill, Senate Bill No.6 of 2014 by the Standing Committee on Legal Affairs and Human Rights on Wednesday, 2nd July, 2014. (4) The County Governments (Amendment) (No.2) Bill, Senate Bill No.2 of 2014 by Sen. Martha Wangari on Wednesday, 9th July, 2014. (5) The Political Parties (Amendment) Bill, Senate Bill No.2 of 2014 by Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale on Tuesday, 15th July, 2014. The five Bills are now due for consideration in the Committee of the Whole and will be scheduled for Senate business this coming week as follows:- On Tuesday, 29th July, 2014, the House will consider the Alcoholics Drinks Control (Amendment) Bill, Senate Bill No.5 of 2014 by Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki, the County Governments (Amendment) Bill, Senate Bill No.1 of 2014 by Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale and the County Governments (Amendment) No.2 Bill, Senate Bill No.2 of 2014 by Sen. Martha Wangari. On Wednesday, 30th July, 2014, the House will consider the Statute Law (Miscellaneous Amendments) Bill, Senate Bill No.6 of 2014 by the Standing Committee The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Sen. Munyes, are you standing up to present a petition?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have a public petition from Turkana County over the insecurity that is affecting the northern region of this country amongst the Turkana and West Pokot counties. The petition is signed by two petitioners on behalf of the Turkana people under Standing Order No.223 of the Senate Standing Orders. It is written to the Speaker of the Senate---
Sen. Munyes, has that petition passed through the Clerk’s office or is it a fresh matter?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have raised the matter with the Speaker. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Has he approved it?
Well, this copy has not been approved.
I would like to see an approved copy. We need to do this procedurally. I do not have anything to stop you from raising a petition, but it is imperative that it should pass through the right procedure so that the Speaker’s office has approved it, having gone through the office of the Clerk. If it has that endorsement, I will allow you to go on with it. If it does not, I will ask you to suspend it.
For sure it does not have the endorsement.
Then you cannot proceed with presenting the petition. I have not seen it. I am also informed by the Clerk’s office that they have not seen it either. Next Order!
Hon. Senators, there are statements that are listed in the appendix of today’s Order Paper. I would like us to go in sequence first. Sen. Billow, do you have a statement for Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale? Is it lengthy?
I cannot hear you. Could you move to the Dispatch Box? DETAILS OF AGREEMENTS BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENTS OF KENYA AND CHINA
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the microphone is on now. Yes, the statement is lengthy but I will only read out the highlights because the Member has all the details on the issue.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I will go to the second part of the attachment that says “the National Treasury is required to provide a statement on financing agreements signed between the Government of Kenya and the People’s Republic of China.” In particular provide information on:- (a) the exact details of the multi-billion shillings agreement signed between the governments of Kenya and the People’s Republic of China; (b) how much money is involved in these agreements; (c) how much of this money will go into infrastructure projects; and, (d) how much of this money constitutes interest free loans and grants. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Senator. Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, do you have any intervention or reaction to that? This will be very short because, if you recall, we had already dealt with these issues. I think what was sought was supplementary information on the original issue. Am I correct?
I hope that we will not take too long on this. Go on, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the House will recall that last week, when this matter was adjourned, it was because we were not agreeing with the Chair of the Committee over the annexture. I notice in today’s answer that there is a complete departure from that annexture. That was the reason we adjourned. But I am happy to further note that the Principal Secretary, Dr. Kamau Thugge, has not substituted that particular annexture but has said, further to the letter, that he has added the current information. For that reason, since he has not withdrawn it, could the Chair respond to the issues of favouritism and skewed awarding of funds that would be paid for by taxpayers to only certain regions in this country; regions that are seen to be areas where the Deputy President and the President of Kenya come from?
Sen. Billow, let us see whether there are any more interventions, so that we can--- Sen. Kanainza, you are seeking the Floor for what purpose?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, my statement was approved and I am supposed to seek it today.
Is it okay, let us first deal with what is before us first because there will be confusion. There is no other request on the statement by Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale. Sen. Billow, you can proceed. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the hon. Senator had sought a clarification last week with regard to the fact that the loans and grants from China are for projects that are in areas where the President and Deputy President come from. He specifically mentioned Central and Rift Valley. Specifically, he mentioned two of the projects. I want to state that he mentioned a grant for reconstruction of Gatundu Hospital at Kshs1.52 billion and Kenyatta University Teaching, Research and Referral Hospital Project at Kshs9.85 billion. If you go through the schedule, it will be clear that these projects are national projects that span across the country. I want to give examples. In the completed projects that add up to Kshs40 billion, you will find Moi International Sports Complex which is the first project funded by China, it is a national project in Nairobi. It is not favoring any particular region. The widening of Jomo Kenyatta International Airport (JKIA) - Uhuru Highway Road, which will cost Kshs1 billion is a national project. It is not something that is either in Central or Rift Valley. The construction of Mama Lucy Kibaki Hospital in Nairobi’s Eastlands was for Kshs2 billion. This was done a few years ago. The Nairobi-Thika Super Highway, again, is part of the Nairobi Metropolitan. If you come to Ol Karia Geothermal, the cost is Kshs7.5 billion. That is providing power to Kakamega and other parts of this country. Procurement of equipment for NYS was Kshs4.2 billion. This is a national issue. The list goes on, it is long, I do not want to go through all of it. But when you come to the ongoing projects, which I am sure is the Senator’s area of concern, the Kenyatta University Teaching, Research and Referral Hospital, this is located in Nairobi. The hospital is not located in Rift Valley or Central. This project commenced more than four years ago. It was not started by this Government. Therefore, the question of saying that it was started and is favouring the two incumbents is wrong. In fact, this project was started at the time when his side was part of the coalition that was in government then. It is almost reaching completion. The Kenyatta University Teaching, Research and Referral Hospital is a national university. The procedure is that universities apply to the Treasury for funding. If Maseno University in Western Kenya applies tomorrow for funding through a programme like this one, the National Treasury will process it the same way they processed the other one. I do not think there is anything skewed about the Kenyatta University Teaching, Research and Referral Hospital. The other issue is on the Nairobi-Southern bypass Project. Again, it is part of the northern corridor that goes all the way to other countries in East Africa. The cost for this is Kshs19 billion. Apart from the standard gauge railway, the other single largest item is listed as No.12 on the provision of drilling materials for 80 geothermal wells in Ol Karia. Lastly, the other project the Senator is concerned about is the reconstruction of Gatundu Hospital. This is a grant of Kshs1.52 billion. Gatundu Hospital, like any other hospital, applied through the Ministry for funding. This is a grant that has been given to assist reconstruction of that hospital. So, with all due respect to the Senator, I do not see anything you would say is skewed or that the projects are favouring Central or Rift Valley region. These are all national projects that benefit every part of this country, to a large extent.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Sen. (Prof.) Anyang’-Nyong’o!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have made a request for a point of order.
I have heard you but there is another point of order before yours and I have called it out.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I thank the Chair of the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget for the response that he has given to Sen. Khalwale’s observation and query. I would agree with him that some of those projects were started when we were in the Government. Indeed, I know very well how the Kenyatta University Medical School project was started because I was part of the initiative. That notwithstanding, we are talking about now. First, would it be in order for the Chairman to make that list available to all Senators for further scrutiny and discussion? Secondly, having read the distribution of the project, is it not fair to say that we have tended to be too Nairobi-centred or around-Nairobi-centred? What initiative is now being taken to make sure that we diversify this kind of investment to other parts of the country, in the spirit of the new Constitution, which is now not then?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to state that the Chair is misunderstanding my clarification. I had no doubt about the other infrastructure projects. My problem is that in both annextures you have Nyeri Provincial Hospital, Gatundu District Hospital, Kenyatta University Teaching and Referral Hospital – I am talking about the one in Juja and not the Kenyatta National Hospital in Nairobi – Moi Teaching and Referral Hospital and Mama Lucy Kibaki Referral Hospital. All these hospitals are in the same catchment area and yet, the whole country right from the Coast, Western, Nyanza, North Eastern and Eastern, have Kenyans who want to have access to such ultramodern hospitals. It is, therefore, out of order for the Chair to imagine that I am canvassing for the case of a hospital in Kakamega. Yes, I am entitled to, but I am saying this in the interest of respect for the Constitution; which requests that resources must be seen to go to all the regions of the country. How can you have six ultramodern hospitals in one little area, when the rest of the country is begging for treatment? I request you to respond. Are the President and Deputy President using their positions to ensure that the areas where they got best support are favoured in this modernization of the medical services in this country?
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Last time when this matter came up here as well as this time, the hon. Senator for Kakamega and my friend, Sen. Boni Khalwale, referred to the matter of Nyeri, which I clarified that I have not seen the money that he has been talking about. But that is not really my point. Would I be in order to propose to the hon. Senator for Kakamega that instead of talking as if he hates some people from certain regions getting any money for any hospitals, he could ask for money for the areas that he wants, rather than this psychological inferiority complex of always attacking Nyeri hospitals and the other hospitals, as if they do not deserve what other Kenyans deserve?
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Is Sen. Kagwe not on a point of order?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I stand by what I said.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. You have heard my colleague, Sen. Mutahi, say that I am talking as if I have hatred for some people in this country. I demand that he substantiates, even if he needs two days to come and do so, failure to which, he should kindly withdraw and apologize. This is because I am on record as being one of the politicians in this country who put my life on the line. My car was burnt because I was supporting President Kibaki, when the country had shifted out of it.
Order! Order, Sen. Khalwale!
This politician must realize that to speak in this country is not a privilege. He must apologize. It is not a joke!
Order! Order, Sen. Khalwale! Sen. Khalwale, I think that the rules of the House have not changed, however, angry you may be. When the Speaker is on his feet, I think that it is imperative that the Senator should be seated.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Would I be in order to remind the hon. Senators that if we go the route of looking at projects and indicating where they are, we will be putting this country again into a very sensitive dilemma? Would I be in order also to ask my Senator from Kakamega to tell us whether the railway line from Mombasa to Nairobi does not pass in other regions that are not for the President and Deputy President?
We are seeking interventions from the supplementary Statement that was issued by Sen. Billow Kerrow and now, it appears like new things are coming up. I do not know whether you want us to deal with points of order or concentrate. I had said that this is not a Statement that I wished to take too long on, because it is supplementary and there are other Statements that have to be issued this afternoon. I can see other requests. Sen. (Prof.) Anyang’-Nyong’o, you have already contributed to this issue.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, although Sen. Khalwale is right to raise any query here, it would be in order to know that most of these projects started sometime ago before this Government came into place. I was a Permanent Secretary and so, I know. But he is in order to ask – just as I am going to ask – when the other regions are going to be considered.
I am not sure that Sen. Billow Kerrow, the Chairman, will be able to answer your question, unless you are seeking a fresh Statement. That is a completely new dimension that you are giving to the Statement.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, would I be in order to request the hon. Senators to lower the temperatures a little? Whereas the information being sought is genuine, because it is based on facts--- If facts could be brought to bear then, of course, the questions would be answered. I think that Sen. Billow Kerrow is capable of doing that. It is a fact too, as my colleague in the previous Government said, The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Sen. Elachi, do you have another intervention?
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Would I be in order just to request that as he answers, it would also be important for the House to know all the grants and funding not just from the Chinese Government but all our donors and how they have been spread across the country?
I have only one problem here. We now have a situation where Statements are issued in the House and then they are taken back for further information. When they are brought to the House, again, they are taken for further information. It cannot go on ad infinitum . That is why I stopped Sen. Lonyangapuo and said that the avenue is always open to seek a Statement specific to your need and what you want to know. But if you keep asking the same Chairperson who has issued a Statement and another Statement the same questions but on different facts, he or she may be unable to answer those questions. I notice that Sen. Kagwe and Sen. Elachi are requesting for the Floor. If you want a point of order, please, go to “intervention” and if you request the Floor, go to the request button.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, regarding the clarifications that was sought by the Senator for Kisumu, Prof. Anyang’-Nyong’o, let me clarify, and I think that the Senator for Kakamega needs to pay attention, that, in fact, all these projects, including the ongoing projects – their designs, plans and proposals – commenced well before this Government came into power. Secondly, these projects to a large extent are based on the flagship projects of Vision 2030. Vision 2030 was developed when the last Government was in power, the majority of whose members are now sitting on that side. If any of the Senators can go through the Vision 2030, they will actually tick off all these projects, because they are listed there. So, it is not something that is being developed now. Regarding the clarification sought by Prof. Anyang’-Nyong’o, to the extent that, that Vision 2030 actually covers all the priorities in terms of development across the country, the funding when you look at this may not actually appear to be comprehensive. This is because there is funding from the national Government and other donors. In fact, the other donors combined have significantly more contribution in terms of funding than this one from China. So, there are many of these projects that are included in the Vision 2030. I am sure that in terms of the policy aspects, Vision 2030 will address that. The second query was raised by the Senator for Kakamega. He asked why we have these projects concentrated in these regions. As I mentioned earlier, Moi Teaching and Referral Hospital is a project that was completed many years ago. Kenyatta University Teaching, Research and Referral Hospital that he has mentioned, also, is a The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
That brings that matter to an end.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
On the same issue? Are you seeking a further clarification?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, you are yet to make a ruling on my request that my brother and colleague, Sen. Kagwe, substantiates his allegations.
What part do you want substantiated?
I wanted him to substantiate, failing which---
What part do you want him to substantiate?
It is on record what he stated, and I am very clear on the HANSARD about what I demanded for.
So, I am asking you what exactly you want substantiated.
I want him to substantiate his allegation. It falls below my dignity and professional training to even repeat his allegation. I am a dignified man and I lead a patriotic life.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I first want to respect the views of the Senator for Kisumu and therefore maintain a modicum of civility. However, I said and I repeat that it appears to me that the hon. Senator, whom I said I respect, is exhibiting some level of hatred. It appears to me, and the HANSARD will bear me witness. That is my opinion and I do not think there is any substantiation to be done. I want to believe that the appearance I have is wrong and it is not correct but at that point in time, it appeared to me, given two times of the same question in the same hospital and indeed it has proven to be completely wrong. So, one can appreciate, here I am, sitting here, hearing a Nyeri hospital that has gotten some billions of shillings, knowing the desperation that is currently in that hospital and continued insistence on the same wrong notion. Therefore, on a friendly notion, I want to assure my brother, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, that I have respect for him and indeed I do not believe that he hates a part of this country, but the way we express ourselves in this House, also requires that hon. Members remain honourable to the extent that your statement cannot be construed by a reasonable individual to be meaning that you do not like a certain area in the country.
Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, can we proceed. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I understand the rules of debate. What I have put on HANSARD, I now want to leave it to the conscience of the Senator, whether he feels compelled to apologize or not. I also want to leave it to the Chair, having stated that he is not going to apologize whether you are going to insist that he does the second part of the request, that is, withdraw and apologize. I leave it to you.
Thank you, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale. I think we will leave it at that. I would also like, with a lot of respect, to bring to your attention Standing Order No.94 (1) and (2) but pursuant to your statement, I would like to leave it at that and move on. Sen. Billow, you had a Statement to issue, but before you do that, Sen. Ongoro has an intervention.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I had been requesting for some time and sorry for taking you back. This is a debating chamber and having listened to the debate taking place on the Floor of the House, I feel almost intimidated that seeking a Statement in the Senate is going to be restricted to free debate. It is my opinion that when one seeks a Statement and I believe all our Chairs have the ability and capacity to provide the Statement and the answers sought. I want to remind hon. Senators in this House that in 2007 this country had a very nasty experience which we do not want to repeat or to ever experience. One of the issues was because of the perceived historical injustices that a section, sections or regions felt. Therefore, when we seek Statements---
Order, Senator. When you use a word like intimidation, I do not know whether it is directed at the Speaker, the Chair of the Committee or the House in general. It is not my wish to go back to that issue because Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale has been very gracious. He has ended the matter. He has said that he will leave it to the conscience of Sen. Kagwe and for the Chair to consider it. If I re-open it now, it could go on and on, I might not be able to stop it at that point. That is why we are talking about rules of debate. They state that a debate must come to an end. The specific one on the Statement that has been issued has come to an end because I made an order that we close it and move on to the next Statement. As pertains to the last statement, I am functus officio and I cannot go on with it. So, I am afraid I am not going to allow us to reopen that debate. Sen. Billow you can proceed. ANXIETY IN COUNTIES OVER DELAYS IN ENACTING COUNTY APPROPRIATION BILLS
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I stand to issue a Statement pursuant to Standing Order No.45(2)(a) regarding county budgets. Our attention has been drawn to a statement in the media to the effect that counties face imminent cash crisis due to delay in the passing of Revenue Allocation Bills and delays in approvals of budgets by the Controller of Budget. On behalf of the Committee, I wish to advise the counties as follows: The Division of Revenue Allocation Bill will be finalized by the end of the week. The Mediation Committee Report of the two Houses was adopted by the Senate The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Sen. Billow Kerrow. There are no interventions on that Statement. That is a Statement by a Chairman of a Committee on topical and important national issues which is very welcome. There are some other Statements that have been sought. Sen. Kanainza, you can go on. ALLEGED IRREGULARITIES IN RECRUITMENT OF POLICE OFFICERS
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to seek a Statement from the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on National Security and Foreign Relations, particularly seeking to know about the irregularities that marred the recent recruitment by the National Police Service (NPS). In the Statement, the Chairperson should:- (i) state whether the Government is aware that the recruitment of police officers by the National Police Service on 14th July, 2014 was marred by irregularities in some counties such as Kakamega especially in Lugari, Matete and Malava regions. The irregularities included favouritism, nepotism and corruption; (ii) state the specific steps that the Government has taken to remedy the situation following the widespread irregularities that disenfranchised potential and qualified youth from being recruited and favouring non-deserving cases; (iii) present the tribal distribution of the 10,000 recruits in the county and sub- county levels in the country; (iv) state the ideal qualifications of a police officer and why the recruiting officers were looking for outdated qualities such as teeth structure; in other words, he should describe the police recruitment procedures; (v) state why candidates who studied under the international curriculum such as the International General Certificate of Secondary Education (IGCSE) were sent away yet this system is recognized by the Ministry of Education; (vi) state whether there are adequate facilities such as housing and equipment that will ensure recruits are comfortable as they perform their duties; (vii) describe if there are any improvements in the Kenya Police Training College that will enable them to cope with the current advanced and complex nature of security threats such as terrorism, cyber crime, online fraud such as bank hacks and computer crime, illegal trafficking of cultural property, environmental crime, organ trafficking, money laundering and smuggling of immigrants. Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Where is the Chairperson of the Committee on National Security and Foreign Relations? The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I would request to be given about two weeks to respond to that Statement which has been requested.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not know what she means by two weeks, because I am aware that we are proceeding on recess in the coming week. This is a matter of urgency and as you can see, many commissions and institutions are really not comfortable with what happened on 14th July, 2014.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise on a point of order in terms of guidance from the Standing Orders. Is it in order to deal with a statement such as this one when this matter has also gone to court? At the same time, there is also a Committee of the National Assembly which has also pronounced that, that exercise be stopped. We also know that the Ethics and Anti-Corruption Commission (EACC) and other agencies have also commenced investigations on the whole matter. Will it not really be unfair, in terms of the time of the House, to be engaged on this matter when it is being dealt with at several levels? Am in order to---
Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the importance of this matter cannot be gainsaid. Therefore, when the Chairperson says that they will bring it after two weeks, it will be too late because we do not know when these recruits will be reporting to the police training college. It is important that we sort it out quickly so that if there is need for Parliament to pronounce itself that the process should be repeated, it should be done in good time before the recruits who bought their way into training have already been admitted at the college.
Sen. Obure, I know you want to intervene, but your name is not on the panel. It is now there as a request for the Floor and not for intervention. But go on, Sen. Obure.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. First of all, I want to thank Sen. Kanainza for raising this matter; I had exactly similar concerns. But I want to, first, start by referring to the sentiments expressed by Sen. Billow; the fact that this issue is being handled elsewhere. I do not think that will preclude this Senate from discussing a matter of such great national concern. We should be allowed to express ourselves. This recruitment of personnel into the police force was a complete sham and that has been captured by the sentiments expressed by Sen. Kanainza. What I want to request for, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, is that in the response from the Chairperson, he should specifically state if this criteria for recruitment was actually applied in respect to recruitment centres in my own county, Kisii. Secondly, we want to be assured if, indeed, the Cabinet Secretary (CS) himself and the people responsible – the National Police Service Commission – is actually satisfied that the recruitment was done properly and if this is, indeed, the way we will go. The truth of the matter is that if you are a child from a poor family, you had absolutely no chance of getting recruited into the police force---
Order, Sen. Obure! You are now not seeking a clarification; you are making a statement; you are debating; you are pre- empting the debate actually.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I was just going to conclude--- The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
No, no, no! I am not going to allow you to debate on this issue; even the Statement has not been issued!
But more importantly, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, let me ask what action specifically---
I know you had sought a statement, but you were advised that Sen. Kanainza had sought a similar statement. So, I only allowed you because maybe you would like to ride on that statement which was sought, but not to debate on it. No, not now; not before the statement is issued.
Finally, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, what I would like to see happening---
If you would like a---
Let me say this; if you would like – as a rider to the statement – the Chairperson to deal with a specific issue based on the statement that you had yourself sought, I will be quite happy to allow you.
Yes, correct. My interest is just to find out what specific action the National Police Service Commission is going to take to ensure that there is equity in the last recruitment and in future recruitments, because there has to be fairness. Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I was just on a point of order because---
Yes, what is your point of order?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I just wanted to know if I am in order to say that the speaker who has just concluded was seeking a fresh statement---
So, what you wanted to raise has been spent now?
Yes, I mean, I have done it.
So we can proceed?
Proceed, Sen. David Musila.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I just wanted to rise on that same issue and ask the Chairperson not to ask for two weeks because this is a matter that is at hand. Even today, this matter was raised in the National Assembly and an answer was given today. So, I think we should not appear to be gagging this House so that whenever we have a question, you postpone it and say you will give it on a day when you know it is impossible so that the matter dies off. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, Sen. Billow wants us to avoid it and say that it is in court; it is not in court and even if it is in court, this House has a right to debate a matter of national importance like this one.
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The last intervention from Sen. Omar Hassan.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I just wanted to add my voice to the matter, being a matter of great public interest and urgency. I think it will be reasonable for us to have the statement as soon as practically possible, which is next week, so that we can dispense of this matter. We will come back from the break--- No, no---
What is your request?
That we have the answer on Wednesday because Tuesday will be a public holiday.
Yes, Tuesday is a gazetted public holiday. Now, Sen. Dullo, you know that all things being equal, we are going on recess this coming Thursday. So, when you say that you want to issue the statement in two weeks time, you know that, in a sense, you are saying that you will issue it 46 days after Thursday, because that is when we will resume. So, the matter will basically have been overtaken by events. So, what are you going to do about it?
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I understand the concerns raised by my colleagues regarding this particular matter. But we have tried severally to make sure that we obtain the statements within the required time, but we normally face a bit of a challenge because the statements are sought from specific areas that are requested for. But since we are going on recess, I will try my best to have the statement ready by next week. Thursday will be better.
Vice Chairperson of the Committee, Sen. Fatuma Dullo, first of all, I would like to state in answer to what Sen. Billow Kerrow has said that I am not aware of any court proceedings on this matter. Therefore, I do not agree that the matter is sub judice or that we should stop debating it in the House. I am aware from reading newspapers and items like that, that the National Assembly has itself debated this issue. I do not believe that precludes us from debating it; we are a different House, with a different purpose and I think it is our right to debate this matter. Thirdly, I am convinced that this is a matter of national importance because it is affecting all the counties and we need to be satisfied that the procedure used in the recruitment was free, fair, without any favouritsm and that everybody got an equal chance. Therefore, in light of all those things, I would like to rule that, that statement be issued on Wednesday next week. We will not leave it to the last day of the term of the session. So, I want it issued on Wednesday next week, which shall be on Wednesday, 30th July, 2014 at 2.30 p.m. There is a statement which was sought by Sen. Lonyangapuo to the Chairperson of the Sessional Committee on Devolved Government. You are supposed to issue a statement. Is the Chairperson here? The Chairperson is not here. Is the Vice Chairperson here? The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am the Vice Chairperson. No, the statement is not ready.
In the absence of the Chairperson, you take responsibility. If you look at the Order Paper in Appendix b, you are supposed to issue a statement today to Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the statement is not ready.
Are you sure?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not have it.
Is it not easier to say you do not know?
Hon. Senators, I think this issue about---
Please, sit down. This issue about statements is a very important issue. The Order Paper is always there and it states---
I will be happy if you could listen. The Order Paper is here and the appendix always states what statements have to be issued. So, I think it is imperative that the Chairperson of the Committees look at the Order Paper and if you see that your Chairperson is not here, then I think it is incumbent on the Vice Chairperson to be seized of the matter. So, I do not know whether you are saying that you do not have the statement, or that it is not ready, or you do not know so that we can move on?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do undertake to follow up on the matter and---
What is the reason that the statement is not here?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am not aware.
That is not right. That is the reason why we have Chairpersons and Vice Chairpersons of Committees.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. This question is very urgent in light of what we have been reading in the papers; that some County Assemblies have been paying MCAs a lot of money. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
You are not seeking another statement, are you? I am asking you to react to what the Vice Chairperson of the Committee has said.
Mr. Deputy Speaker Sir, this Committee should respond to this question so that we see how the Senate will assist the counties. Could they bring an answer as soon as possible, probably tomorrow?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, as I said, I undertake to bring the response tomorrow afternoon.
Tomorrow, 24th July, 2.30 pm. Sen. Karaba, do you have a statement for Sen. Liza Chelule?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, she is requesting for a statement. CHALLENGES FACING THE TEACHERS SERVICE COMMISSION
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I would like to seek a statement from the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Education. The statement relates to challenges facing the Teachers Service Commission (TSC) which is one of the ten commissions established by the Constitution. In the statement, he should state what he will do to ensure that funds meant for commissions field operations and maintenance are located to the commission and not to the Department of Education.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I will issue this statement after we come back from recess. We only have two days to go and yet this is a very serious statement.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Chairperson is not giving me an exact date of when he will respond. He is saying that he will respond after we come back. What date is that?
Will you be prejudiced if the response is given after recess?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I will be comfortable.
Sen. Karaba, could you indicate the date?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I will respond the first week after we come back. I do not know when we will come back. When will be come back after recess?
The clerks-at-the-Table will note that you will respond on the first week after we resume. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
We will now go to the final statement from the Chairperson of the Committee on Lands and Natural Resources. Do you have a statement for Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr.?
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I rise to issue a statement which was requested for by Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr., the Senator for Makueni. This is a Ministerial Statement on the Demarcation of Konza City Boundary. (1) The 47 counties adopted by the Constitution of Kenya were the 47 districts created by the Districts and Provinces Act Cap 105 of 1992 and revised in 2012. The Act is a basis for delimitation or description of the boundary in wards of the districts and provinces derived from the various consultations and stakeholder forums held by the then Ministry of Provincial Administration and Internal Security and the Ministry of Local Government. Since Independence, there has been piecemeal demarcation which is placing inter-visible boundary beacons along the districts and provinces boundaries. This has now become a challenge to the county governments and the national Government. The Cabinet has, however, directed that the marking of the counties and national boundaries be finalised without delay to address this situation. The process or exercise of marking these boundaries will also involve the Independent Electoral and Boundaries Commission (IEBC) as stipulated in the relevant law. (2) This is to confirm that Konza City is in Machakos County based on the boundaries descriptions in the Districts and Provinces Act Cap 105 of the Laws of Kenya for the former Machakos and Makueni Districts which are now Machakos and Makueni counties respectively. Historically, the 5000 acre piece of land in which the Konza Techo City is being developed fell within the then Machakos District. Indeed, Makueni District was curved out of the then Machakos District in 1992 with the Konza Techo City Land remaining on the Machakos side. According to the 1987 Kenya Parliamentary Constituency Review Order, Legal Notice No.309, the Konza Techno City site fell within Machakos Town Constituency No.65. This position tallies with both the 1992 Districts and Provinces Administrative map of Kenya and the 1997 Parliamentary Constituencies map which again places the area under Machakos Town Constituency and, therefore, under Machakos County. The historical position is vindicated further by the fact that according to the 2012 Parliamentary and Wards Maps prepared by the Independent Electoral and Boundaries Commission (IEBC) for Machakos Town and Kilome, the Konza Techno City is located within Machakos Town and, therefore, Machakos County. From the above historical analysis, it is clear that the location of the techno city within Machakos County is a consequence of historical, administrative and political developments which cannot be attributed to mischief or ill intentions perpetuated by anybody either in the current or previous administrations. (3) The Ministry of Lands, Housing and Urban Development is in consultations with both Makueni and Machakos counties and; the Ministry of Interior and Coordination The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
.: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to thank the Chairman of the Committee for attempting to answer my question. I will be seeking the following clarification in sequence. The third question I asked was very specific. The Minister was required to explain the legal basis upon which the Director of Survey has placed Konza City Boundaries within Machakos County. In the answer provided by the Cabinet Secretary, she has described and stated as follows: The Act is a basis for delimitation or description of boundary in wards of the districts and provinces derived from various consultations and continues to describe Konza City to be in Machakos County. In support of that, the Cabinet Secretary has attached a map. I have shared the map with the Chairman because I have the Act with me, in words; part 17 which describe Makueni District as per 1992. I have demonstrated that to the Chairperson and, therefore, would like a clarification on whether the Minister is aware that the boundary that is created on this map that they have provided to the Senate which attempts to show the boundary between Makueni and Machakos is Mombasa Road is not part of the Act. That simple discrepancy has created and moved 5,000 acres into Machakos. I am seeking that clarification so that the Minister can tell the Senate whether she is aware that The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am very disappointed that my hon. colleague said that I attempted to answer or issue a statement when he knows that I have issued a comprehensive statement which we have discussed with him. He only needs some few clarifications which I will address. It is emerging that it is the hon. Senator’s word against the Minister’s word. According to the hon. Senator, the map I have tabled does not conform to the Districts and Provinces Act, Cap 105. For us to resolve this matter once and for all, I want us to invite the Cabinet Secretary in charge of land and the hon. Senator so that we go through the Act and the map that has been provided so that we see where the discrepancy is, then we can resolve this matter once and for all. As it is now, it is the hon. Senator’s word against the Minister’s word. The Minister insists that Konza is in Machakos while the hon. Senator is insisting that it is in Makueni. Both of them seem to be tabling evidence. The Senator has provided a map which I have tabled. The hon. Senator is also citing the Districts and Provinces Act Cap 105. The only way we can resolve this matter is to be in a meeting with the Cabinet Secretary where the Senator will be present so that we look at the map and the Act.
I know that some Senators want to intervene on this issue. However, if I got you right Sen. Khaniri, you said that you would like to have one chance to have a round table meeting with all the interested parties and then you can give a more comprehensive Statement to the House. The Statement before us is now the property of the House. I would go by the proposal by Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. because all committee meetings, first of all, are public and any Senator can attend any committee meeting. I would propose that all other Senators who are interested in this matter be invited to that meeting, so that they can talk about that map and all those other things that appertain to this Statement. From there, Sen. Khaniri can bring a comprehensive Statement to the House. We, as a House, can then debate and see whether we can have a way forward. To me, that sounds reasonable.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I also want to thank Sen. Khaniri for giving the answer that he did. Indeed, it was a big contrast between both sides. You saw how efficient Sen. Khaniri was. He told the House that the Cabinet Secretary said that they need time to sort out this issue because it appears not to be clear. If that is the case, I want him to tell us why the Cabinet Secretary went to the site in Konza and declared that it was a concluded matter, not subject to negotiation, that Konza The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I thank the Chairperson of the Committee who issued the Statement. However, on the other hand, I have had a chance to sit in one of the meetings where I was invited together with the Senator for Makueni, the Governor and the Senator for Machakos. It would be good if this House is told the truth. It is the Cabinet Secretary who has some sinister motives.
Order, Sen. Mositet! I will not allow you to take that route because the Cabinet Secretary is not here and she is not able to defend herself in this House. I still believe that this is a very important matter that needs to be sorted out and the Chairperson of the Committee has indicated what they would like to do as a way forward. Let us hear what Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. has to say and then I will give an order on that matter.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I understand where Sen. Mositet is coming from because, at the time we attempted to resolve this at a round table, it is the Cabinet Secretary in charge of Lands who—
Order! Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr., I have already made a ruling on that issue pertaining to the Cabinet Secretary. If you have something else to add, please, state it, but do not bring in an issue that is for now extraneous to what we are discussing.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I was going to clarify the issue. Notwithstanding what the Chairperson of the Committee has said, I will propose out of experience - that is why I support what Sen. Mositet said – that other than the Minister in charge of lands, the Director of Survey and the Director of Physical Planning should be present at that meeting because they are the people responsible for drawing these maps and not the Cabinet Secretary. The Cabinet Secretary most likely when we go to that meeting, like Sen. Musila has said, will insist that this is the correct picture without necessarily giving us what we would call evidence. I would request that the invitation to us should be for a meaningful purpose. The people who drew this map should be present. We do not want to attend a meeting of the Cabinet Secretary to repeat what she has put in this Statement.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have been following this Statement as I was coming here and I am seeking a simple clarification. Towards the end of President Kibaki’s regime, we went to Konza Techno City site for him to launch the construction of the City. All the preparations, all the protocols, all the attendance and the speeches made were that this was done in Makueni County. The clips even from the PPS or from any respectful media house can show. In attendance were several of us who were Cabinet Ministers, the Vice-President then, the Chairman of Konza City, Mr. John Ngumi and many other dignitaries. Now, did somebody perform a deception on the former Head of State or has there been a survey done that shows the contrary? This was after the new Constitution had come in force and the alteration of boundaries between counties is set out in the new Constitution. To the best of my knowledge, no commission as envisaged by the new The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
We must bring this issue to a close although I can see that there are Senators who are still showing an interest in it.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I keep reminding the Senate Minority Leader that the Standing Orders are very clear on how you refer to Senators and not to one Yusuf Haji and Khaniri? Is he in order?
He is completely out of order. I always refer to you as Sen. Wetangula because the Standing Orders clearly state that we shall refer to Senators thus.
Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I meant the distinguished Senator for Garissa County, Sen. Yusuf Haji and the distinguished Senator for Vihiga County, my younger brother, Sen. George Khaniri brought Motions here and the Chair disallowed them because of the lack of a commission.
The issue is clarified. That is all Sen. Wangari wanted to know. Sen. Khaniri, do you want to have the last comment on this issue or should I make an order on it because you already sought what you thought was the way forward?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, maybe just a quick response to what was raised by Sen. Musila and Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. and Sen. Wetangula. Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. alluded to the fact that I said that the Cabinet Secretary needs some time so that we can clear the position. I did not say so. I said that I need time because I am getting two contradicting versions of the story. The Cabinet Secretary still insists that the Konza Techno City is, indeed, in Machakos County and yet the Senator here is tabling evidence to show that it is in Makueni County. We cannot, therefore, determine boundaries of counties based on events. I think Sen. Wetangula is totally out of order. Boundaries of counties are based on the Acts and the maps that have been provided to us. We cannot base it on events; that the President purportedly held a function and was hosted by the Makueni leaders does not put that area in Makueni County. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. requested that when we call for this meeting, we should--
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The President launching Konza Techno City is not a purport, it was an event that everybody knows and so we cannot call it a purport. A purport is something that never happened. He actually launched the City. The distinguished Senator for Vihiga, my very good younger brother is totally and grossly out of order in misrepresenting facts.
I do not think it is in your place to determine that he is out of order. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I think I am right and in order. It is you to make the ruling. Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. had requested that when we convene this meeting, he wants us to invite the Director of Survey and the Director of Physical Planning. We will oblige and send invitations to them to attend this particular meeting. Thank you.
In this event, since the Chairperson of the Committee has himself sought that position and the Senator for Makueni who had sought the Statement has further sought that it be enlarged, I think it is important that, that round-table meeting be held as soon as possible. I would direct that the Clerk’s Office, in inviting people for this meeting, should ensure over and above those Senators and other people who may be interested, that there shall be the Director of Survey, the Director of Physical Planning and the Cabinet Secretary. However, the most fundamental question that, that Committee must decide is whether or not a Cabinet Secretary can make a Statement and determine that the boundary of a county is this and that. That is why I want the Committee to sit as directed and then come up with an answer. Senate Majority Leader, is it on the same issue?
(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I want to ask whether it is in order to provide information when you have already determined.
It is late now.
(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, Article 188 of the Constitution vests the matter of boundaries between counties with the Independent Electoral and Boundaries Commission (IEBC), subject to the approval of the two Houses of Parliament. This matter may look like a small matter, but I know that there are very many counties which have serious issues of a security nature, leave alone the Makueni/Machakos issue which appears, to me, to be commercial. Tharaka-Nithi and Meru counties have boundary issues and I am sure that many other counties have similar problems. So, if that mandate is used well, it can help this country to sort out most of those problems.
Thank you very much, Senate Majority Leader. When the Cabinet Secretary writes a Statement and says this city belong to that or that county, it is not in my place to dispute whether she is right or wrong. Whether Konza Techno City is in Makueni or Machakos, I do not know and I reckon that is why the Statement was sought. But when a Statement comes and says that Konza Techno City is in Makueni then, like the Senate Majority Leader said, it might be saying that the boundary of a county has been determined. I do not know whether even bringing it here is the right thing, because there must be a body or Commission under the Constitution, because it is clear on who can declare where the boundaries of counties are. So, you can discuss it as I have directed and if you have a way forward, we will be happy. However, I am not certain that you or anybody else, has that capacity to determine where the boundaries, because the Constitution is there. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would not have risen, but the comments made by the Senate Majority Leader may lead us into more dangerous territory. This is because the Constitution itself has already established the boundaries between counties, and it is so stated. What we and even the Cabinet Secretary cannot do is to alter boundaries. In fact, Article 188 is about altering boundaries and not about establishing boundaries. Those boundaries already exist and they are described and defined. So, I do not think that we should go out there with the impression that there is anybody who can now re-establish boundaries. They already exist.
Sen. Orengo, maybe you can help by pointing out to me where the establishment of boundaries is in the Constitution.
It is in the Schedule.
There are six schedules. Which one is it?
If you look at the Schedule and read it together with Article 188.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is the First Schedule on page 176. Those counties already exist and are defined in a statute.
The First Schedule only states the 47 counties by name.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is the number of counties, but they are based on an existing statute. In fact, those boundaries are not described only in terms of just lengths and so on, but even their descriptions. Where there is a river they mention it and so on. There is information there which can guide you. That explains the point by Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr.; that if you need to know the boundaries, they already exist. What you cannot do is to alter.
Hon. Senators, the tripartite meeting that will be held by the Senators, as I have directed, may come up with an answer. One can state that this lies here or there if the boundary is clear as alluded to by Sen. Orengo. But if you are going to determine a boundary, seem or appear to alter a boundary, then I do not believe that the Cabinet Secretary or anybody else has that power, except the Commission as may be provided in the Constitution. That is the point that I am trying to make. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to seek a Statement from the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Labour and Social Welfare about the status of the older persons cash transfer programme. I am particularly seeking to know the progress, success and challenges. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, in the Statement the Chairperson should:- (1) State the number of beneficiaries per county and the amount given to each elderly person. The Chairperson can provide data per county. (2) Explain the criteria used by the relevant Government departments to allocate the funds, since this is used selectively---
Sen. Mukiite, for purposes of the HANSARD, your request for a statement ends with the words “departments to allocate the funds.” So, put a full stop and delete the words starting with “since.” I am referring to the approved request.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am so advised. In the Statement the Chairperson should:- (1) Explain why some poor elderly people, whose names had been approved and submitted, have not received any funds at all, even after His Excellency the President increased the funding by Kshs470 million. (2) State the monitoring and evaluation mechanisms put in place to report on the feedback and success of the initiative on the lives of the elderly Kenyans. (3) Explain why the amounts that were dispensed were not sufficient and uniform across the counties. Some elderly people received amounts ranging from Kshs1,000 to Kshs2,000. Is this amount sufficient? (4) State the actual budget for the poor elderly people through this programme. Is this consistent with the national Budget?
Who is the Chairperson of the Committee on Labour and Social Welfare?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I will be in a position to respond to that request within the next two weeks.
We said that we do not have two weeks. So, you are seeking to present the Statement after we return from recess.
That is right, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
That shall be the first Thursday after we resume.
Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Is that okay, Sen. Mukiite?
Most obliged, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Thank you. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not know if I am in order, but last Wednesday the Committee on Land and Natural Resources gave a Statement following my request, but it was not exhaustive. The following day, there was a write up in the Star newspapers about the increased number of elephants and rhinos being killed. The Chairperson of the Committee on Lands and Natural Resources was given one week to bring a comprehensive answer, factoring in the questions on the matter that arose on the Floor. Since there are other issues that came up during the week, would I be in order to further request that when he brings the statement tomorrow, he also looks at what I would like to table?
You cannot do that. However, if you sat down with the Chairperson or the Committee and expressed you concerns to the Chair, maybe they can beef up the further Statement that they will give. But you cannot do it right now, because in front of me, I do not have any document seeking a further statement from you. So, we need to go by what is already there. Let the Chairperson bring the further statement that you had sought. In the meantime, if you can meet them and give them the information that you have, then maybe they will use that information to give you a more comprehensive answer.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
That is the end of Statements. Next Order!
(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, to the best of my knowledge, debate on this Bill was concluded and I replied. The only thing that was left is Division. At the moment, I doubt whether we are able to carry out any Division today given the numbers that I see in this House.
What am I supposed to do then?
(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I request the Chair to defer the putting of the Question to tomorrow, under Standing Order No. 54. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
It is so ordered! The Division shall be held tomorrow 24th July, 2014, at 2.30 p.m.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to move the following Motion. THAT, the thanks of the Senate be recorded for the Address of the President of the Senate of Rwanda, the Rt. Hon. (Dr.) Jean Damascene Ntawukuliryayo delivered on Tuesday 22nd July, 2014. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, hon. Senators, yesterday was a historic day in the calendar of the Senate because for the first time this Senate was addressed by a visiting dignitary in the name of the President of the Senate of the Republic of Rwanda. I say it is historic because one of the things that this House can do to build its stature, its profile, its visibility as a House that represents the interests of the people of Kenya is once in a while to have interactions with important visitors whenever they come to our country. Those who did the Standing Orders had this in mind. In any case, this is a tradition that is observed the world over. Given Kenya’s increasing international relations both in East African region and even outside this region, it would be important that going forward whenever we have an important guest in town from other countries, they have an opportunity to address us so that we can also get an opportunity to interact with them. The address that was given by the Rt. Hon. President of the Senate of Rwanda was a straight forward address, but it raised a number of issues that are of importance to us, as a nation, as a country, which is a Member of the East African Community. Currently, Kenya is chairing the East African Community at all levels; the technical level, the ministerial level and even at the level of the heads of States and government. Therefore, it is not surprising that one of the highlights of the remarks or the Address of the Rt. Hon. President was on the need for Kenya and Rwanda to continue deepening and widening the relationship that exists, especially within the East African Community partner states. I think it is important for Kenyans to appreciate that Kenya, Uganda and Rwanda have been the trail-blazers of this co-operation for a while now. This is not supposed to say that the other partners States are not doing their bit, but the reality is that those of us who have been engaged in the negotiations and regional discussions around how we can strengthen and fast-track the East African Corporation will understand that on each and every issue that has been on debate, always Kenya, Uganda and Rwanda are the first to agree. Of course, our other partner States have had issues with one or two things which The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I am sorry for interrupting the Senate Majority Leader, but I just want to confirm from the Chair whether it is procedural to use those exits.
They are exits, are they not?
Thank you for that clarification.
(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Thank you, Sen. Hassan. I also did not know you could do that as well, especially when you do not want to bow. I am told when you exit through them, you do not have to bow. I was saying that the way to go is to strengthen and deepen our trade and commercial relationship with the countries around us. Until recently when some statistics were reviewed, people realized that actually Uganda is a much more strategic trade partners than all the countries in Western Europe combined. This information has not been available in the public sphere. The more we get this kind of visits or interactions we realize a dream of a faster East African Community and also the dream of a prosperous country faster than we would have thought. The Address by the Rt. Hon. President of the Senate of Rwanda also touched on the common aspirations by Kenya and Rwanda to achieve certain economic bench-marks. For Rwanda the set timeline is by the year 2020 and for Kenya it is by the year 2030. What this means is that just like Kenya, Rwanda has set itself certain targets and they are confident of achieving them. I am also persuaded as a Kenyan that what we have set for ourselves as a nation can be realized not only in 2030, but even earlier because we have witnessed that if we were able to keep our country peaceful and, indeed, our country has been peaceful for a while now, it is possible within the next ten years to make Kenya leap into great heights of prosperity and this will hasten our Vision 2030, so that it becomes a reality to the people of the Republic of Kenya. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Did you hear the Senate Leader Majority mislead the country and this House that Kenya has been peaceful for a while when only a few hours ago families were slaughtered in Likoni, including a ten year old child? Is he in order?
What is your comment, the Senate Majority Leader?
(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, first and foremost, I was not aware that there has been a criminal attack in Likoni while we were sitting here. For that reason, I send my condolences to those families that have been affected. Having said that, despite increasing crime which every Kenya is concerned about irrespective of our political affiliations, despite other issues that we are struggling with, despite the divisive nature of our interactions, at the moment, especially along ethnic lines and so on, I am one person who believes that what happened in this country in 2008/2007 is nothing compared to anything else we have seen either before or after 2008. It is in this context that I sought to say that at least after 2008, generally, the country has been peaceful. I did not intend to mislead the Senate or the country that there is no crime in our country. We condemn crime and we hope that everything that needs to be done must be done in the shortest time possible to make our country safe and reduce these attacks. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the address by the President of the Senate of Rwanda also touched on a few things, especially around the difficult relationship that Rwanda has had around ethnicity and how they are confronting that. This also relates to our own history and experience, as a country. We have also had difficult relationships. We can also learn from countries like Rwanda and how they have been able to fairly bring people together. Even if there are still difficulties in that country, at least, you will find businesses are running, people are relating and having social interactions in a country where just 20 years ago there was massive slaughter of the people of Rwanda, not by foreigners, but by fellow citizens. This tells us, as a country, that in spite of what we have done and in spite of the challenges we have experienced, it is still possible to put our country together and to recover lost ground, mend the broken relationship, knit ourselves back again and live as people who belong to one nation and who share a common destiny. Let me also say that Kenya and Rwanda are members of the International Great Lakes Conference. This is an organization that brings together other countries like the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) and other countries far down south as far as Angola. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, unlike the East African Community which has really moved very fast and has some results to show, this grouping of countries whose mandate deals with issues of peace and security in East Africa and the Great Lakes Region has not done much. It is not visible. I really hope that through these interactions, our two countries and the other partners, neighbours and members of this International Great Lakes Region can speed up the harmonization and standardization of security benchmarks in the region so that trade becomes easier. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I beg to second this Motion of gratitude to the address given to this House by the Chairman or the President of the Republic of Rwanda Senate yesterday. I was not present to listen to the speech, but I got the speech itself. I would like to second the Senate Majority Leader in appreciating the President of the Senate’s Speech, the Rt. Hon. (Dr.) Jean Damascene Ntawukuliryayo. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, many years ago when I edited the book which was titled “ Regional Integration in Africa: an Unfinished Agenda,” I noticed that one of the issues that the President of the Senate emphasized in his speech yesterday was to note that, and I quote:- “If we, the Senate of Rwanda in partnership with the Senate of Kenya and National Assemblies of other partner states can play a role The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir for this opportunity. First and foremost, I would like to commend the Address that was delivered by the President The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order Sen. Hassan. If you look at the Standing Orders---
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I withdraw that comment; an adverse reference to a friendly Head of State.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Be careful!
You have been gagged by the Standing Orders!
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I have, again, been gagged as Sen. Orengo has put it by the very Standing Orders we have created. That said and done, why I do not want us to continue to raise emotions, I do not believe that Kenya is in a genocidal state. There is the word para-suicide. This is a person who is at the advent of committing suicide. I do not believe that Kenya is at the brink of genocide. It is simply fear mongering because the opposition is holding ethnic cocoons to account. This does not constitute a State that is about to commit genocide against a people. We continue to The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for the Senator for Mombasa to mislead this House by insinuating that the only side that you can identify Senators of quality contribution is on that side? Did you hear him telling the House that if you want to see Senators who are of distinction, then you look at that side?
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Yes, I heard him very well. Unfortunately, for your case, he is in order because that is his opinion. There is nothing you can do about it.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I quite agree with Sen. Hassan that there are very distinguished persons on the other side, but did you notice The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order! Sen. Kajwang was actually among the top mentioned, unless you want us to refer to the HANSARD.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. This is a House of records and procedure. Is it in order for the Senator to refer to Members of this House by their names and yet it is clear how he should refer to them, even if he wants to elevate them to some other level?
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Sen. Wangari, I think you should look at the Standing Orders. It is clearly noted that you refer to Senators as Senator so and so. I think that is exactly what Sen. Hassan did.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, there is a simpler way in English language where you can use the words “Senators so and so” and then it covers everybody. If I was to shortlist that list I mentioned to one then that would be Sen. Kajwang.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Sen. Martha Wangari.
Asante, Bw. Spika wa Muda. Nasimama kumpongeza Rais wa Seneti ya Rwanda, Dr. Jean Damascene Ntawukuliryayo kwa Hotuba yake jana ambayo haikuwa mrefu lakini ilikuwa ya maarifa. Siku chache zilizopita, tarehe 3-07-2014, nilikuwa na bahati kuwa Rwanda walipokuwa wakisherehekea maadhimisho ya ukombozi wao ambao wanaita Kwivohora kwa Kinyarwanda na nikaweza kushirikiana na Wanyarwanda. Hata mhe. Rais wa nchi hii ambaye ni Mwenyekiti wa Ushirikiano wa Afrika Mashariki aliweza kuhudhuria sherehe hizo. Bw. Spika wa Muda, ningependa kusema kwamba kuna mambo mengi ambayo tunaweza kujifunza kutoka nchi ya Rwanda. Pia kuna mambo mengine ambayo hatufai kuyaiga kutoka nchi ya Rwanda. Niliweza kuhudhuria makumbusho ya mauaji ya halaiki ya watu yaliyotokea miaka 20 iliyopita. Nchi ya Rwanda wamepiga hatua kubwa za kimaendeleo kama nchi ingawa ni wachanga kidemokrasia. Katika Hotuba yake Rais huyo alisisitiza uongozi wa akina mama. Kwangu, hilo ni jambo la muhimu kwa sababu nchi ya Rwanda ina ongoza ulimwenguni kwa kuwa na wanawake wengi sana katika Bunge lao. Hiyo ni asili mia 64 ambayo haijawahi kuonekana nchi nyingine za dunia. Tulikuwa kule na akina mama tukihudhuria mkutano ambao ulikuwa umewaleta pamoja wanawake Wabunge kutoka nchi zaidi ya 70. Bw. Spika wa Muda, napenda sana kusoma lugha za kitamaduni za Kiafrika na za hapa nchini. Wasomali wako na msemo mmoja kuwa ukidungwa mishale miwili, mmoja kwa jicho na mwingine kwa tako, jambo la busara la kufanya ni kutoa ule ambao uko kwa tako ndio uweze kuketi na kutoa ule ambao uko kwa jicho. Hii ni kwa sababu mshale ukiwa kwa jicho unahitaji uwe makini zaidi. Unaweza kutoa ule ambao uko kwa tako lako bila kufikiria sana. Hivyo ndivyo watu wa Rwanda walifanya. Waliweza kukosoa yale mambo ambayo yalifanya kuwe na mauaji ya halaiki mwaka wa 1994. Walikomesha mauaji hayo kama wametengwa. Hata aliyekuwa kiongozi wa Umoja wa Kimataifa, Bw. Kofi Annan, alihuzunika sana kwa sababu nchi nyingi ziliwaangalia wakiuana na wakawatenga. Lakini wameweza kutatua shida zao kwa miaka 20 iliyopitia. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you very much, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, for this opportunity to also contribute to this goodwill message that was brought to us by the President of the Senate of Rwanda. I say that it is a goodwill message because that is exactly what it is, from a sister nation to an institution of the Senate, whose first and primary duty is to protect the State and make friends with other states. If we do that, we will have done a big job for this country. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, Rwanda is a beautiful country. I have been there twice or thrice. They call it a country of 1,000 hills. It is hilly. However, I also noticed it The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order. Nyerere comes from the Kuria tribe and it is not small.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I know that the Kuria clan is the largest in Tanzania. However, when I talked to the President of Tanzania one time, he told me that they are the most troublesome. I think we can take our country very far. In fact, that is why I love the issue of integration in East Africa. If East Africa was integrated and we had one federal Government, probably we would not even think of tribes. We would be very minute inside there and all this hot air about tribalism will flee. I must also criticize this speech for one sentence only. I have been told that women empowerment is at the highest level in Rwanda. This could be true. There are more women in the Senate and in the National Assembly than all of us put together. But only the other day, one of First Ladies who wanted to run for Presidency in Rwanda was arrested even before she started her campaigns. She was arrested and charged with some offences which are not known to the law. She was detained and she stayed there until the elections were over. In Kenya, we have had hon. Ngilu, the late hon. (Prof.) Wangari Maathai and hon. Martha Karua run before. So, on that score, we are quite ahead because we have given our women the recognition that they deserve.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the last thing I want to say is that genocide was mentioned three times in this speech. I wish that we did not---
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Hon. Senators, I would advice that if you should switch on your microphone to request to speak, please, keep it on. This is because if you tamper with it and switch it off, when you switch it on again, you will be the last in the queue. So, what the Speaker sees here may be confusing to some of you. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I also rise to record my sentiments on the speech given by the Senate President of Rwanda yesterday. I want to start by saying that when I came to the House yesterday, I came prepared to sit for a long time listening to a lengthy speech. But I was impressed by the short, precise, up to the point speech that was delivered by the President of the Senate. The simplicity of his entourage was even more impressive. Looking at the address, I want to agree that what was recorded in the speech was actually, to a very big extent, the truth and the reality on the ground. This is because some countries refer to themselves as friendly to Kenya, but their actions and deeds are contrary. Rwanda, on the other hand, is indeed, a friendly country because they exhibit this spirit of friendship by the things that they have put in place. For example, it has been mentioned here before that we do not have any visa requirements for Kenyans going to Rwanda. Similarly, for our business people, they have created a one stop shop and a one day registration and facilitation. Therefore, this is very encouraging because when they call themselves friendly to us, it is really what they are exhibiting. I also want to state that Rwanda supports the integration of the East African Community by deed because, indeed, Rwanda is also a signatory to the Peace and Security Pact that was signed by the East African countries this year. This is going to give us a joint platform in fighting terrorism, cross border crime and all other ills that could be unique to this region. The experience of genocide has been so extensively referred to in this speech. While I want to state that it could not be very close to our own, but it is an example that, probably God has given us close to allow us at each point in our politics when we fight for regional and balancing in all aspects of our Government. This is because we have these examples of Rwanda, Somalia and all these other ones close by. So, when we study the issues that led to genocide in Rwanda, I visited Rwanda and had occasion to be taken to the sites. I had an entire day interrogating those who were taking me round because I really wanted to understand why they ended up like that, when they really are a one people to a very big extent. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, there were issues of perceived historical injustices by one section of the community in the country which were silent and which were not allowed to come to the fore. These issues were not interrogated, addressed, or discussed. That is why I think, we, as a country and as a nation, when we want to ventilate either in the Houses or outside, we should learn not only to talk, but also to listen. It would be better not to be reactionary, but to be a people who would listen and address some of these issues without trying to wish them away. When you travel overseas, you get a very big number of Rwandese still staying in countries like Belgium. While I commend them for the resilience and speed with which they have healed as a nation, they should similarly extend this very good gesture and try to invite their brothers and sisters who they left during the genocide and after, and who are still living out there, to come back to the country. On that same note, I would still add my voice for them to find ways of not branding the same people of Rwanda as people The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I also rise to support and thank hon. Dr. Jean Damascene, the Speaker of the Senate of Rwanda. I want to thank the Rwandese Government for giving employment to our Kenyan sisters and brothers who are there. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order. Your time is up.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I rise to acknowledge the Speech by the President of the Senate of the Republic of Rwanda. In his Speech, he brought us greetings from the people and the Government of Rwanda. It is my pleasure to assure him that we too greet him on behalf of the respective county assemblies and on behalf of the Government of Kenya. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, Dr. Damascene also assured us of the continued cooperation between his Republic with Kenya. We want to assure him of the same. He also spoke of the increased cooperation between Kenya, Uganda and Rwanda, but conspicuously missing in his Speech was any mention of Tanzania, Burundi and South Sudan. You as a former Minister for East African Community for this country and with your able Assistant Minister whom you know---
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): My Assistant Minister was Dr. Boni Khalwale.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. Please do not remind them that on the day you were demoted, it was the same day I was sacked. You will be the first to urge the President of the Senate of Rwanda to use the Senate of the Republic of Rwanda as we should here, to remind the Head of States of Rwanda, Uganda and Kenya that the three of them should not misconstrue the dream of the East African Community. In the beginning, the East African Community (EAC) was about Kenya, Uganda and Tanzania. Now that we have expanded to include Burundi and Rwanda, this apparent The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Yes, Sen. James Aggrey Orengo.
I thank you very much, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity. First, is to recognize that despite whatever criticism will be directed against Rwanda, they have done a lot to bring that country to a situation of stability where institutions are working. In saying this, I also want to remember that when the first military coup was conducted in Rwanda and the King was overthrown, he together with his family and associates lived in Kenya for a very long time. Kenya became a safe haven for the Rwandese for quite a number of years. I also want to remember that the Government of Rwanda, at the time when the President was Bizimungu and Kagame was his deputy, that Government was the first Government after the system of multiparty democracy was established in Kenya that recognized the Kenyan Opposition. I remember going there in a delegation of Members of the Opposition at that time; it was a very strong delegation of 10 people, Members of Parliament (MPs) which included former President Kibaki, the late hon. Wamalwa Kijana and the late Martin Shikuku. We worked together with the Rwandese Government using the Parliament here to make sure that those who had committed acts of genocide in Rwanda and were living in Kenya were exposed. Using the materials we were given by the Rwandese Government as MPs, we tabled that information in the House and also worked together with the Special Tribunal for Rwanda in trying to seek out the genocide perpetrators who had come to Kenya as fugitives of justice. One must congratulate Rwanda because it is becoming a small but very powerful country. It is very much in the form and shape of other small but powerful countries found in the Asian Continent, Korea and Singapore. Japan in terms of population and resources is not also a big country. In Europe, you will find countries like Switzerland and Austria which are small but powerful in many ways as a country. That is basically because they have taken up some values of hard work and the rule of law. They have not always followed democracy but those who eventually succeed are very strong on democratic values and human rights. Integration in East Africa is the integration of the states. The people of EAC are more or less integrated and it is a question of old colonial boundaries that still exist that have hampered the movement of people’s goods and services across the borders. If as a transition measure we can use borders not as barriers but as bridges to open up, the EAC integration at the level of states may be accelerated. It should not be lost that the people of East Africa are already integrated. If you look at the border between Kenya and Uganda, you will see that 40 per cent of Luhyas as we know them; as a people, are living in Uganda. If you look at the Maasais, you will see that more than half of them are living in Tanzania. More than half of the Kurias live in Tanzania. The Somalis have crossed The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Order, Sen. Orengo, you will have eight minutes more tomorrow when debate on this Motion resumes.
Hon. Senators, it is now 6.30 p.m. That marks the end of today’s business. The Senate stands adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday, 24th July, 2014 at 2.30 p.m. The Senate rose at 6.30 p.m. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.