There is a Paper to be laid on the Table by the Chairperson of the Committee on Roads and Transportation. If it will be discussed tomorrow, then it must be tabled today. Next Order!
Is Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. not here? Next Order
Any Chairperson of a Committee present here to issue a statement? The Order Paper shows that there are a good number of statements to be issued or to be sought today. Is the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Lands and Natural Resources here? He is neither here nor is Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr.
Sen. Mukiite, are you seeking or issuing a statement.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I had requested a statement from the Standing Committee on Lands and Natural Resources.
The Chairperson is not here. Is the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Labour and Social Welfare here? It appears that no Chairpersons are present. Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo, do you have a statement to make?
Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to make a Personal Statement pursuant to Standing Order No.45(2)(a) regarding the ongoing conflict at the border of Baringo and Turkana Counties, especially in a place called Kapedo. I am making this statement because there have been allegations by some leaders linking me to the said conflict. This has been brought to the public domain through the media. I would, therefore, like to set the record straight by refuting these allegations very strongly. They are baseless and far from the truth. I also strongly condemn any act of banditry in the said counties or elsewhere in Kenya. The Killing of the 19 police officers by bandits was very unfortunate and should never be allowed to occur again in Kenya. As one of the peace loving leaders in the North Rift, I have made attempts to establish the root causes of the sudden killings, especially of the askaris in my effort to find out what is ailing the area in question. I was told that on 30th August, 2014, a young man of Pokot origin was beheaded in Kapedo when he visited a shopping centre riding on a motor bike. His head has not been traced up to now and the headless body is still lying in Kabarnet District Hospital Mortuary in Baringo County. The locals attempted to seek General Service Unit (GSU), District Commissioner’s help and the chiefs to locate the head so that the body can be buried to no avail. To make things worse, the said killer posted the photograph of the head of the young man on Facebook with the following inscription:- “Here is the head of the devil.” Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have been informed that this is what led to the blockage of the road into and outside Kapedo; hence the mess we are in today. Out of concern, as a reasonable leader, I inquired into the problem, but I have been accused of perpetuating lawlessness in a camouflage for scramble for minerals and oil in Turkana County. This cannot be further from the truth. Indeed, the oil and mineral issue has nothing to do with the current conflict. As I conclude, I would like to reiterate that there is need to thoroughly investigate and ascertain the root cause of the conflict. Kenyans living in the conflict zone need to live in peace and be assured of their safety which is possible only when the cause of the problem is established and addressed. As I have been told, some characters have gone ahead to open a Facebook page using my name, Prof. Lonyangapuo and posting malicious things purporting to come from me. Those ones should be treated as an attempt to malign my name. I thank you.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to seek a Statement on the state of security in Lamu County.
Sen. Hassan, I will allow you to seek the statement, but I want to indicate to you that we have already gone through Statement Time. I only came back to them because Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo had a Personal Statement to issue. Otherwise, we had finished with Statement Time because you were not here.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, your kind consideration is highly appreciated.
I shall indulge you, but I am just indicating to you that the business of the House starts at 2.30 p.m. When the Order Paper is called, it is good that we are here so that we can transact the business of the House together.
You can go ahead.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to request for a Statement on the state of security in Lamu County and other parts of the coast region. I rise pursuant to Standing Order No.45(2)(b) of the Senate Standing Orders to seek a Statement from the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on National Security and Foreign Relations regarding the state of security or insecurity in Lamu County and other parts of the coast region. In the statement, the Chairperson should:- (i) Explain the progress made so far in the restoration of normalcy in Lamu County following the terror attack of 15th June, 2014. (ii) Explain the extent of the investigations to which the perpetrators of these criminal acts have been brought to book bearing in mind a foreign terror organization, the
, claimed responsibility for the attack. (iii) Explain why almost five months after the terror attack, the police still have in place a punitive curfew that has disrupted the way of life of the majority of the residents of Lamu County and impacted on the economic sphere of the place. (iv) To state whether the Government is aware of the economic impact and in specific terms the loss incurred as a result of the curfew. (v) State whether the Government will take up the loss incurred as a result of the curfew bearing in mind that the responsibility to guarantee security is that of the national Government hence the responsibility to bear the loss. (vi) Explain the preparedness of the organs of national security to deal with insecurity in Mombasa and other parts of the coast region bearing in mind the sporadic The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Sen. Haji, this statement is for your Committee. There was a similar statement sought yesterday on other spates of insecurity in the country which I requested you to check in the HANSARD. I suggest that you check the HANSARD and also take the request from Sen. Hassan. You may have to give one comprehensive statement on both instead of two because they are touching on the same issue. Would that be fair to your Committee?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, that would be fair. Apart from the Lamu insecurity and the curfew, there was a request for a statement on the security of the whole country which you directed to be issued on Tuesday. I do not know whether my brother would wish me to deal particularly with Lamu or with the earlier statement as it were.
I will leave it to you because these are two separate statements sought by two separate Senators. It just occurred to me that they are related. If it is convenient to you and your Committee to issue two separate statements, then so be it.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it will not be a problem.
When do you want to issue a Statement on Sen. Hassan’s request?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, you directed the first one to be issued on Tuesday, next week. This other one can be issued on Thursday.
Let us do it on Thursday, next week. Is that okay, Sen. Hassan?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, for the record, it is quite fair that Thursday, next week, should be convenient.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have two statements to issue. You guided me on one yesterday and I am very pleased that I have a very elaborate answer.
The one from Sen. Kagwe?
I can see he is in the House so you can issue it if you are ready. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this statement regards the declaration of 7th July, 2014 as a public holiday. Was it Sen. Mositet who requested for the statement?
It was me, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Then there must be some confusion here, but let me just read it. The Senator sought to know whether the governors have legal authority to declare a public holiday. If not, what appropriate action should be taken against a governor who makes such a declaration? Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, regarding the authority to declare public holiday, I would like to state as follows:- 1. The law is explicitly categorical as to the public holidays celebrated in the Republic and the authority by whom other public holidays may be declared. Article 9 of the Constitution sets out the national days which are also public holidays, celebrated in the Republic. These are:- (a) Madaraka Day; to be observed on 1st June; (b) Mashujaa Day; to be observed on 20th October; and, (c) Jamhuri Day; to be observed on 12th December. 2. The Constitution further provides for Parliament to enact a law to prescribe other public holidays and observance of public holidays. 3. In this respect, the primary legislation governing the subject of public holidays is as per Act Cap 104. Section 2 read with the First Schedule to the Act further provides a list of public holidays observed in the Republic. 4. Significantly, Section 3 confers upon the Cabinet Secretary for Interior and Coordination and National Government, the power to declare other public holidays either in addition or substitution of the list provided in the Schedule. Section 3 further states:- “The Minister may at any time if he thinks fit, by notice in the gazette, declare any day to be a public holiday either in addition to the days mentioned in the Schedule or in the substitution for any of those days and either throughout Kenya or in any district, area or part thereof, and thereupon any day so appointed shall be a public holiday in all respects as if it were a day mentioned in the Schedule, in Kenya or the locality specified in the notice; and where, in any year, any day is so declared to be a public holiday in substitution for any of the days mentioned in the Schedule such latter day shall in such year cease to be a public holiday in Kenya or the locality specified in the notice.” 5. In the above circumstances, the issue of national and public holidays celebrated in the Republic is a matter effectively determined by the Constitution and the laws of the country. The authority to declare any other public holiday is vested upon the Cabinet Secretary for Interior and Coordination of National Government. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Sen. Mutahi Kagwe, do you wish to seek any clarification?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the matter is self explanatory. But having said that, you have just heard the Chairman talk about some lack of clarity regarding what actually happens to such individuals who declare national holidays. Given that politics is full of all sorts of people, including egomaniacs, it is important for us to ask the Chairman to liaise with the Ministry concerned and ensure that the Ministry makes a law The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, indeed, the statement was very specific and clear that any declaration should be done within the Constitution. The Constitution is supreme to any other law; unless the Chair guides us, I do not see the need for any law to be made since the Constitution will deal with such a case when it arises.
Well, thank you Senator. There are no further requests from the Floor.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Order, Sen. Hassan! Are you standing on a different issue?
Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
But you must press your request in good time. What is your point of order?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I just want to make a clarification that the procedure is laid out in law. Is it accurate to say that if I declare a public holiday outside the law, then in the natural event it is not a public holiday, then we will know that is just a political statement which does not make it a public holiday. Is that accurate?
Absolutely, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I think that reservation is very valid. If it is not in conformity with the Constitution, then it is null and void. As I said yesterday, it should be disregarded.
That is now settled. Everybody seems satisfied. Sen. Haji, thank you for a comprehensive answer on that issue.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have another statement which was sought by Sen. Munyes. It has been outstanding for a while.
Is it a long one?
No, it is a very short one.
Okay, go on. CUSTOM BARRIERS AND RESTRICTIONS AT NADAPAL CUSTOMS BORDER POST
Sen. Munyes requested for a statement on whether the Government is aware that Nadapal Customs Border Post of Kenya and South Sudan suffers from numerous customs and restrictions from the national Government. The response is as follows:- The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo. I am sorry, Sen. Munyes.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, John is my brother. We share the same name.
I apologise. I think it is because he had issued a Personal Statement not so long ago. That confused me a little.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, unless the Chairman can confirm today that the ECTS is fully operational by this morning, then I will agree with what he is saying. What I know is that this system is being operated in a very selective manner. I want to give an example. Trucks ferrying petroleum products are not allowed to access that border through Turkana. The customs officers recommend the Malaba-Busia border. This has really affected revenue and development in Turkana. I want to justify this by the number of trucks. Five years ago, there were 13,000 trucks annually passing through our border. They have now dropped to 3,000 because we cannot track petroleum products. Somebody in Eldoret is diverting those products through Malaba and Busia. Turkana is a shorter border to Sudan by 500 kilometres. To go through Malaba, you have to go through two borders to access South Sudan. Why are we giving due advantage to Uganda and not accessing the border that is directly affecting our people?
Sen. Okong’o, are you seeking a clarification on this one? Then go on. Sen. Haji, there are very many requests for clarification coming in; please, take note, so that you can deal with all of them together.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I also want to know whether the Chairperson can tell us whether they are aware that there is an oil crisis in Juba because of this very long distance which my Chairperson asked about. Because of this long The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, further to the question that my brother and neighbour, Sen. Munyes, has asked, to demonstrate the gravity of the matter, as a result of diverting all these vehicles through Uganda, there is now a deliberate move not to repair or build the Kitale-Kapenguria-Lodwar-Lokichoggio Road. As a result of this, the road is now a mess. Secondly, we want to know whether that is now the Government policy; that we must drive these lorries to Uganda and neglect our own road, which would have actually made it better. Thirdly, how many active border points do we have that are manned by our people in Kenya? I have one example in my county. That is the border between Kenya and Uganda at a place called Konyau. The Ugandans have built a fully fledged immigration office as you cross from Uganda, whereas there is no single building or officer manning the Kenyan side. What plans does the Government have and why are we wasting revenue by allowing our money to be collected on the other side by the trucks that are going and yet there is nothing that is being brought into Kenya? Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, regarding the observation made by the Questioner, I think he is in a better position because he has said that up to yesterday, maybe there were no vehicles crossing the border. So, I think we need to countercheck this. I will check further and, perhaps, report back to the House. Regarding the question from my colleague from Nyamira, I do not know whether the number of vehicles not going there is as a result of insecurity in Southern Sudan or whether it is as a result of the bottleneck being created at the border point. It is quite a new observation which also needs to be referred to the Ministry for an answer. Regarding my brother here on my right on how many border posts there are in Kenya, that requires another question altogether so that we can populate all the border posts that are being manned by the immigration officers.
Sen. Munyes, I can see that you are not satisfied.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to appreciate the statement from the Chairperson, especially when he says that we can check. I know that they are very selective; they want to blockade oil products and the people of Eastern Equatorial State. Sudan is a very large country; they have federalism and the people of Eastern Equatorial State have complained to us that they are getting unfair advantage because their regions – like Torit – are now facing a petroleum crisis because they cannot fuel their cars. They have requested us that this border, which is closer to them, will actually support South Sudan, Turkana, West Pokot and all these regions where trucks pass through. You can imagine 13,000 trucks dropping to 2,000. It is a big loss to our people. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I think Sen. Munyes is raising a very new thing, because if it is Eastern Equatorial State which is complaining, it could be that the Government of South Sudan is not interested in seeing to it that the fuel is taken to their country. If that is the case, Kenya can do nothing. That is an internal problem in southern Sudan. So, I think he should request for another statement on that issue.
Sen. Munyes, I do not want us to make this another debate because you were just supposed to seek clarification. Let me hear what you have to say.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is not Eastern Equatorial State only in South Sudan which is complaining. Many of our traders hauling petroleum products by road have found it difficult to go an additional 500 kilometres, destroying their vehicles and going through two borders, yet Kenya can develop its own border with South Sudan. So, we are just passionately appealing to you to consider supporting our traders and business people. Through that, we will be supporting Turkana, West Pokot and that entire route from Eldoret, where those trucks will pass. They will impact on the economy of those areas as they pass through to South Sudan. Thank you very much, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we request the Chairperson bring an exhaustive answer to this statement. This is because all the yards in Kapenguria, Chepareria, Ortum, Kainuk, Lodwar and now Nadapal, where these lorries used to park and the hotels and lodgings that were found there are now empty. We want the lorries to come back so that the economies of our people can actually continue to thrive. We do not want the workers there to be laid off, like what has happened in Mombasa, where no tourists are coming in now.
Sen. Obure, are you rising on the same point?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have been listening to these exchanges very carefully. It seems to be a very important matter touching on the economies of two countries; our own economy and the economy of South Sudan. But I cannot fully comprehend why the Chairperson of the Committee on National Security and Foreign Relations is the one dealing with this matter when, in fact, it should be dealt with by the other Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget. Has this matter been directed to the right place?
But you are aware that he chairs the Committee on National Security and Foreign Relations. External trade is a function of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Trade. Is it not? Here, they are talking about foreign trade exiting through the border point in South Sudan. So, it was directed to the right Committee. The only thing I do not know is whether Sen. Haji is satisfied with the answer in view of the very poignant points being raised by the two Senators from that locale. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. First of all, I think this Committee does not only deal with security. We also deal with foreign relations and international trade---
Order! I have dealt with that part, Sen. Haji. I am sure that I am correct on your mandate. So, kindly deal with the other issues now.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, what I am avoiding is wasting the time of the House on a matter of fact. Kenya can only sympathize with its own traders. However, if it is South Sudan which is refusing to allow these vehicles to go through certain areas, can Kenya really enforce that? That is the question. So, if it is the feeling that an answer should be given, I am very positive that the answer will be the same. I have already dealt with security matters myself.
That is what I was asking you; whether you are satisfied that the answer is satisfactory.
It is satisfactory, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Now, we have to end this debate. I will only allow Sen. (Dr. Machage) because he has sought the Floor on this issue. Sen. Munyes, you have had your take on this.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, listening to the answer from the Chairperson, there is a lot of lacuna that needs to be filled on our own policy on foreign trade. One, is it only us who are dictated to by foreign countries on how we should trade? We should also consider supporting our own traders such as the trading posts in Turkana while we are transporting our goods to Sudan. Why should we be dictated on which route to use? Secondly, is it the policy of the Government to alienate or set aside Turkana so that it is less developed?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I did not know that my colleagues were following the entire debate. As to the trade between countries, this is done on a willing buyer, willing seller basis. You cannot trespass a country without the authorities of that country allowing you to enter. The question is whether the area concerned is a closed area because of the problem of South Sudan. That is the whole issue. There is the question about closing up the economy of Turkana. All Kenyans are looking forward to seeing the resources in Turkana start working. Nobody can stop the economy of Turkana. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Hon. Senators, in the galleries, we have staff members of Migori County Assembly. I will acknowledge them by calling out their names:- Michael Orwa, Administrative Assistant; Matiku Alcent, Records Management Officer; Winnie A. Odit, Librarian; and, Teresiah Nyamohanga, Assistant Librarian. Feel welcomed in the Senate. I hope that you will learn something from your visit. I am happy to see that your Senator is in the House this afternoon.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I had pressed the wrong button and that is why I did not catch your eye. However, I have comments to make.
Do not make comments. Seek a clarification from the Chairperson if you have any and let it be short. ALLOCATION OF LAND IN CHEPCHOINA SETTLEMENT SCHEME IN TRANS NZOIA COUNTY
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I will seek a clarification on the allocation of land in Chepchoina. I am aware that Phase I and Phase II are completed. However, we have a delegation that has gone to court. This delegation first went to see Sen. Zipporah Kittony. We brought the documents concerning this and gave them to the The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr., were you seeking a clarification on Masongaleni?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, first, I want to thank the Chairperson and the Committee for inviting me when they were deliberating on this issue. My only clarification on page nine of the resolution is that the Committee has made very general observations whilst the National Land Commission (NLC) and the Minister in charge of Land, Housing and Urban Development made very specific commitments. I will deal with them one by one so that the Chair can deal with the resolutions. This is a matter that we can take forward in case they default so that resolutions are clear. The Cabinet Secretary in charge of Land, Housing and Urban Development was very specific that the title deeds for Masongoleni would be issued this financial year. The Report does not say so. The NLC confirmed that the list of prominent personalities that was tabled in this House was revoked and they were going to give a letter. That is not in the recommendations. Three, the NLC and the Ministry confirmed that they would check the issue why the people of Masongaleni are not allowed to construct permanent houses or bury their dead because of the fact that they do not have any documentation to prove ownership. That clarification was supposed to be in the report, but it is not there. The issue as to whether or not in paragraph “a” whether this is political or administrative, we all know the problems between the NLC and the Ministry of Lands, Housing and Urban Development; to ask them to form an independent committee is like telling them not to do anything. Both parties came separately to the Committee and made separate commitments. Therefore, in terms of resolutions which will be owned by this House, I propose that the resolutions be very specific to what they said. They should be very specific to the commitment that they made, including sub division, demarcation, title deeds and clarifications as to what these people should do in terms of burying their dead and constructing permanent houses. Those issues have not been addressed. Lastly, the Minister in charge of Lands, Housing and Urban Development, Hon. Charity Ngilu was---
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. has persistently addressed some cadre as Minister. Is he in order to use wrong titles?
Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr., could you clarify that?
The correct term is Cabinet Secretary. I apologise to the Senate for misrepresenting the Constitution. The Cabinet Secretary in charge of Lands, Housing and Urban Development, Hon. Charity Ngilu, was kind enough and magnanimous I must say, in saying that the The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I am a Member of this Committee and I had sought a clarification which was not forthcoming from the Ministry concerned.
Sen. Ndiema, you are a Member of the Committee and so you are the one who should be giving clarifications. You have a joint responsibility as Members of the Committee.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the time given was so short for the answer I sought to be given. We discussed this in our Committee and we thought it wise to first handle the other issues.
I will find it very difficult to allow you to seek clarification from the Chairperson of your own Committee because that will send very wrong signals. This means that either you have not read that report or it is not unanimous. I find it very difficult to allow you to raise a point of order against your own Committee.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I had raised this issue here. I am not seeking a new Statement.
You had sought a Statement from your own Committee?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, not during the Committee sittings, but here on the Floor of the House. I had sought to know the county of the residents of each allottee of Chepchoina Scheme. The names were given, but I would have wanted to know from which county each of the allottees came from. That has not been included in the answer which has been given. I know it is possible for the Ministry to provide that information. I do not know why they are avoiding that.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is the hon. Senator in order to seek for that clarification when, in fact, he was the District Commissioner who allocated those parcels of land at Chepchoina Scheme?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, these plots were allocated---
Order! I have not given you the Floor. Sen. Kivuti, maybe you could answer to those three issues.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this matter took quite some time because we gave an answer to this House quite a while ago. Several additional clarifications were sought and that prompted us to make in-depth investigation into the two cases; both Chepchoina and Masongaleni. Now the good thing is that when we were making the interventions with the NLC and with the Cabinet Secretary for Lands, Housing and Urban Development, both Sen. Nabwala and Sen. Kittony who had sought the statement were The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for the Chairperson to say that I got all the answers while he knows that the country of residence for each allottee has not been given as I had requested. In any allocation of land, there must be an identity card in the Ministry showing where that person is normally resident.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am surprised that my Committee Member has already made a conclusion even before I finish the first sentence on what he requested for. The identity card numbers that the Senator is asking for are all listed in the report. There is the name, the identity card number and area of residence of all the allottees. However, just to clarify for the benefit of the Members, Sen. Ndiema needed to know more details about those identity card numbers and the Ministry of Lands, Housing and Urban Development is not domiciled in the Registrar of Persons’ offices. They actually told us in our committee that they are not able to give further details other than the identity card numbers. If there is any other different issue on that, I will come to it after I have answered Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I sought to know where each of the allottees is normally resident and he has not given an answer. Would I be in order to request that this particular item be referred back to the Ministry because the Ministry has deliberately declined to give information which it has?
I do not belong to your committee, but in what context do you want to know the area of residence of each allottee, so that we can know whether we are going to send it back?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it has been a policy for the Government when allocating land to reserve a certain percentage to the people resident in that county and a certain percentage to other Kenyans from elsewhere. I would want to get this information to ascertain whether the percentages as per policy were attained. If we do not get this information speculation and counter accusations will continue to be there for nothing. I want this clarified so that when we go Phase III, we do not repeat the same mistake. I also want to request Sen. Haji to withdraw the statement that I was involved in the land allocations. These allocations were done just recently. He should withdraw. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the question being sought is now being changed because everything about the percentages of communities who were allocated land is contained in this report. However, I am aware that Sen. Ndiema needed further information on the identification cards. That is to say, the information which is in the Registrar of Persons about the ID cards is what he was seeking. I told him it is okay we can wait, and ask for that from the Ministry of Land, Housing and Urban Development. The officers of the Ministry said that, that information can be found from Registrar of Persons. The Ministry does not keep information on registration of persons.
This information is in the report on page 9. So, I do not know what exactly we are seeking. Unless you want to know exactly who it is and from where? If you are talking about phase two, for instance, the information is there.
It is true the information is all there, but he needed to know each person. Huyu alichukulia kipande kipi in which sub location. May be that is the kind of information he wants to know.
I do not know where we are getting on this. The problem I have here is that you two gentlemen are from the same Committee. Page nine of the report stipulates names of people and their numbers. I do not know what exactly you want to have. Sen. Khaniri, what is your point of order?
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Sen. Ndiema has made a claim that there is a Government policy that specifies that when this kind of land is being allocated, there should be a certain percentage going to the local community. I think it would be important that he cites that specific Government policy. The initial complaint that was brought by the Senator who requested for this statement was that there were fears that some land could have been allocated to foreigners, non-Kenyans, and specifically Ugandans. I think we have allayed those fears, we have gotten all the ID cards of the allottees. We have ascertained that it is Kenyans who were allocated this land. The land is owned by Kenyans and no single foreigner. Therefore, Sen. Ndiema is totally out of order.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I need a clarification because it has been quite a while since this issue was raised and the plight of those people is wanting. I do not know whether I am in order to ask what their plight is. Are we going to continue like this because when we raised the issue, we thought that it will be resolved, but I know the plight of these people is wanting? Therefore, we still need more information from the Committee Chairperson on this issue of land.
Have you read the report?
Yes, because land is a very sensitive issue.
If you have read the report, you know what I said, Sen. Kittony; that the report was tabled and I requested Senators to read it so that they can seek specific clarifications from it. What you are asking could be in the report. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The issue and situations on minorities of this country in the management of their historical rights of land cannot be put under the table by ignoring the legitimacy of Sen. Ndiema’s question to know---
I am coming to that.
No. Who is ignoring the quest, is it the Speaker or the Chairperson of the Committee?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, that is being openly seen from the statement and the denial or total refusal of the Chairperson of that Committee to address a question that Sen. Ndiema has persistently asked in all the days that he has tabled that statement in this House. He has the right to know the details of the residents that are in that area, so that he is able to protect his people. Is it in order, therefore, that, that answer is not being provided?
Sen. Nabwala, what is your point of order?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I support Sen. Ndiema because---
It is not a question of supporting, what is your point of order?
My point of order is; in the first paper that was tabled in this House, Sen. Kivuti had a Statement on the policy which said 60 per cent of land would be reserved for locals and 40 per cent was for foreigners. Why he is insisting on the ID numbers and so forth is because we know some foreigners from the neighbouring counties were given land at the expense of locals in Trans-Nzoia. Trans-Nzoia County is a very unique county. In 1992, we had very serious clashes where people from the mountain died. These displaced people are still living in market places. As a delegation of Senators from Trans-Nzoia County, people want to know how we are going to settle them. That is why this question has been raised by Sen. Ndiema all the time. I think we still need further clarification.
Sen. Wangari, what is your point of order? I hope Sen. Kivuti you are noting all these things because you have to deal with them.
Mr.Deputy Speaker, Sir, I had actually put my request for an intervention earlier, but you have dealt with some of the issues. We have dealt with this issue and it has taken such a long time in the committee. We have had consultative meetings with other Members and the leadership from the The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr.Deputy Speaker, Sir. I want to make a proposal if it would help us to move forward. Sen. Ndiema wants to know the county of origin of these allottees. The Ministry of Land, Housing and Urban Development has stated that they have no capacity. It does not deal with that. Therefore, they cannot provide the information. Would it help if I suggested that a different question be filed to the Registrar of Persons so that the origin of these people is established through that mechanism?
Well, that would help. Let me say this because as you say, we must move forward on this issue. Sen. (Dr.) Machage, it is not fair to say that people are being stopped from asking questions. I think that is unparliamentary and unfortunate because nobody is being stopped from raising any issues. Nobody is trying to make any less important the issue being raised by Sen. Ndiema. However, it is a question of specifics even without making a ruling. Page nine of this report says:- “Phase II comprises of 18 public utilities and 1,663 plots which were allocated to local communities as follow:- Pokots, 600; Luhyas, 452; Turkanas, 226; Sabaots, 202; Others, 183.” Page eight says:- “Phase I, Pokots, 569; Sabaots, 550; Others, Marakwets, Turkanas and Nandis, 40” I am quite willing to send this matter back to the committee so that they can then specify what exactly it is that you want. What does not appear quite right is that all of you are Members of the same committee. I would like to understand whether you want, in case of say of Luhyas, to be told, for example, where the Luhyas are from. In the case of the Turkanas and Pokots, you want to be told exactly where they are from. We cannot go on like this on this issue; it has to come to a close. The report has been tabled and Sen. Ndiema wants to know where everybody comes from. I do not know whether or not this is possible. But it is only you in the committee who can tell us. I do not know the import of that request, but like Sen. (Dr.) Machage says, although he blames people of stifling others, it is imperative that this is clear because it has to do with the issue of land. However, the point I making is that we cannot continue on points of order on this issue. When the points of order come from the same committee then it means that this report is either not agreed on or something is not correct about the report. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it will be good for you to give me a hearing because we deliberated on Sen. Ndiema’s matter at the committee level. That is why I felt free to bring what we discussed to the attention of everybody. I am happy Sen. Chris Obure has already brought it out. What we agreed is that the committee must give the lists of all the allotees and their identification numbers. They are in this report. I would request, if you need us to rephrase a supplementary question on where these ID cards come from. That is not really a large question. It is more of where do these Kenyans come from. As for the question from Sen. Nabwala about foreigners, we deliberately addressed that by telling the Ministry to give the ID numbers to prove that the allottess are Kenyans. We got them. When we have got the Kenyans who were allotted and even their tribes, which is normally not very good for this House, but it was done. If we want to interrogate a supplementary question---
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Order, Sen. Ndiema! Sen. Lenny Kivuti is on a point of order. Let him finish what he is saying.
On where any registered ID comes from, it would be very easy because we will just take this report and note all the ID cards which are there and we put a supplementary question. If that comes up, I will be the first person to request that, that question be forwarded to the relevant committee on National Security and Foreign Relations headed by Sen. Haji.
I understand where you are coming from, Sen. Kivuti as the Chairperson of the Committee. However, the point I am making is this: We have taken almost an hour on the issue of Chepchoina. We have a report of the committee which was tabled. I want to assume that Sen. Ndiema, as a Member of the Committee, has read the report. He does not agree with the report. In my view, that is the understanding I get which is unfortunate. It is unfortunate that Members of the same committee do not agree with the report which is tabled in the House. This is because before it was tabled either there was a divergent view on it, or a dissent as we call it in law or it was agreed that it is a report of the committee. To me, it looks that this is not a report of the committee because one of the Members is disputing it. The point I am making here is because this is a property of the House. If you look at the report on pages eight and nine, it says where the allotees come from.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Order, Sen. Ndiema! The report states where all the allotees come from as listed in the five bullets on page eight and nine. If you wish to have a more specific answer on each of that group of people, then it can only go back to the committee or you can raise a supplementary question on this issue, The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The issue that I am raising is not about communities or tribes. That is already provided. I am not disagreeing with the report in as far as the information already given is concerned. What I am not agreeing with is that there is some information I had sought, and which I do not need to make a supplementary request. It was already made here that apart from getting the ID numbers we need to know from which county each of the allottee comes from. Trans Nzoia County is cosmopolitan. We have the Pokots, Saboats and so on. I am not asking about the tribes; I am not concerned about this. What I am concerned about is: How many allotees were given from Trans Nzoia County regardless of tribe? How many came from outside the county regardless of tribe? That is the information I wish to have. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is a right under the Constitution to get information on anything. On the information I am asking about the IDs, the Ministry of Lands, Housing and Urban Development cannot issue a title deed without a copy of the ID being in the file of each allottee. What I am asking is nothing that is impossible. We do not even need to go to the registration bureau or to refer that issue to the Committee on Foreign Relations and National Security. This is something that can be obtained from the files. As we all know, every allottee has an ID. What we want to know is, from which county that allotee came from.
Had you sought for that information?
I had sought it on the Floor of the House.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Mine is just to give a brief reaction to what you said. Just the fact that in my own understanding, there is one dissent from the committee, does not exclude the fact that it is still a report of the committee. If we were to go by what I read in the Standing Orders, if we cannot arrive to a consensus, then that report is subjected to a vote. If the vote is a majority vote, on account of that majority vote notwithstanding and they accept that, that is the majority position, then it becomes the report of the committee. However, nothing excludes anybody from registering a dissent.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I do not know if I am in order because I hear the discussion is going differently. I remember Sen. Ndiema requesting for that information. However, I do not know whether it was to come in as another statement or what the agreement from the Chair on the same was. We said it has to come in as another statement. Maybe the Chairperson can clarify this to us because I do not think it will have to go through a vote. We need to know if the statement was sought.
Mr. Deputy Speaker Sir, I can understand where Sen. Ndiema is coming from. Although practically 60 per cent of the allocations normally go to the local people and 40 per cent to squatters and other people, but all border areas, including my area, there are many Kenyans who are given IDs. There is also a possibility that some non- Kenyans have been given IDs. The only way he can know as the representative of the people is to know who comes from where. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to make a point that I understand where Sen. Ndiema is coming from. Since you have already made a ruling, I do not think it is too much for this matter to go back to the committee so that these issues can be interrogated. We know that Trans Nzoia is a volatile situation. There have been many squatters in that region. I do not think it is too much to request this matter to go back to the committee so that they can get these facts. We know that when one is given a letter of allotment in the Ministry of Lands, Housing and Urban Development those details are there.
Sen. Kembi-Gitura): Thank you, Sen. Ong’era. This is my direction on this issue: This matter will go back to the Committee. However, for us to understand exactly what is going back to the committee, I am giving Sen. Ndiema a chance now to state exactly what he needs, so that it can be captured in the HANSARD. The committee must deal with this issue, once and for all. Briefly just say what you want. It is going to the Committee in which you belong, and then you are going to get a report to the House, telling us the exact position on that specific issue. You have two minutes to do so.
Mr. Speaker Deputy Sir, I do agree with the report. However, the additional information I had sought is the county of residence of each allottee. We already have the names and the ID numbers of the allottees. The county of residence according to the ID quoted in that list is what we need. That is all.
Sen. Kembi-Gitura): My order is that this matter will go back to the Committee. The committee will report back and tell us whether they have been able to identify where these people come from. They will tell us whether it is not possible or whether it is within the capacity of the committee to do so. That will be the position. I do not know how long this will take for you to come back to us because I notice there are many allottees. Sen. Kittony, I would like to bring this matter to a close. We cannot keep it going on forever. Sen. Kittony, you have a point of order?
Mr. Deputy Speaker Sir, you have done well to send it back to the committee. My concern is the plight of the people who are waiting. This is because if we have a problem we have to find a solution. How long are these people going to wait to get a solution to their problem?
Sen. Kembi-Gitura): That is a different issue. The issue I am dealing with right now is the issue that has been raised by Sen. Ndiema.
Because it has taken a very long time!
Sen. Kembi-Gitura): All these things are there and they are in HANSARD. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. We will deal with that. I cannot give the actual timing because we are going to write to the Ministry to give the specific question on county of residence, or county of issuance of the ID. Before I sit down, it may be good to mention something with regard to the concern of Sen. Kittony because although Sen. Ndiema is denying this report, he is the one who corrected the resolutions in our committee.
Sen. Kembi-Gitura): Order, Sen. Kivuti! We will not go back to that now.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I will not go that way. If you look at the resolutions, we have Phase III coming up, but it has been put on hold by a court process. It was agreed even with the NLC and at the Ministry that the people who were affected; the people who Sen. Kittony is talking about will be considered in Phase III. At this moment, I do not think I can give a date when Phase III will be completed. On the issue of Sen. Nabwala’s comment on nationality of the allottees, that one is already dealt with. All are Kenyans because they have Kenyan ID cards. Mr. Deputy Speaker Sir, if you allow me I can comment on Masongaleni. This is because of the issues raised by Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. It is good that he was present in all the deliberations. They were many, including the ones for the Konza City. The questions which originated in this whole exercise were five which are listed on page 3. The number of persons issued with allotment letters is 1,809. The size of land allotted to each person is as per the list which is attached in Appendix 1. The Cabinet Secretary talked about a list which was cancelled, which brought a lot of issues in this House. It is true that the list was cancelled and is also annexed in Annex 2. We did not have to put everything in the resolutions. We made the resolutions as brief as possible, but gave all the information supporting the answers. On whether there is a database of persons issued with allotment letters, the answer is, yes. The people are annexed in Annex 1. Whether the survey has been done, the answer is yes and we were shown the survey plans. The Cabinet Secretary said that she could seek a waiver, but I do recollect and it is there in our report that there was a resolution in this House that such a move will be unconstitutional, and it is there in the report on page 3 at the bottom. This was objected citing Article 210(1) of the Constitution which states that:- “No tax or licensing fee maybe imposed, waived or varied except as provided by legislation.” For that reason, I do not want to submit that we have made any legislation to waive the fees for titles for Masongaleni, but if it does come, because there are some cases like in the coast region whereby people were given titles without paying. I, As a Senator, will support Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr., the Senator for Makueni in case we get to that. But I do not want to state that, that is the position of the law.
Thank you very much, Senator. That brings us to the close of that issue which has taken inordinately long to finish. Proceed, Sen. Madzayo. Do you have a statement to make? The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
I notice that Sen. Okong’o is not here now.
Sen. Chris Obure is present, because this question was asked by two---
Sen. Obure, you are holding brief for Sen. Okong’o?
The question touches on Kisii and the distinguished Sen. Ong’era is also present. Two Senators from the region are present. I wonder whether---
You have another statement for Sen. Nabwala? Is it ready?
Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I also have a statement for Sen. Nabwala, but it is quite short.
Deal with the one for Sen. Nabwala first since Sen. Okong’o is not here and Sen. Obure is not holding his brief.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we have already agreed with Sen. Nabwala---
You have agreed that she will not seek her statement? Proceed, Sen. Madzayo. STATUS OF ELDERLY PERSONS CASH TRANSFER PROGRAMME
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Sen. Nabwala had asked a further question on the number of beneficiaries of the Cash Transfer Programme (CTP) for the elderly persons per county. We have received the data which explains each and every county for the year 2013 and the new beneficiaries for the year 2014. I have agreed with her that I will provide her with the data and that will put an end to this. Should she not be satisfied, then she will be in a position to ask a further supplementary question.
So, you want us to put that on hold to another time?
That is the position.
Okay; fine. Sen. Okong’o is here, you can give his statement now. COMPENSATION FOR IDPS IN NYAMIRA COUNTY
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this was a question which was asked by the distinguished Senator for Nyamira, Sen. Okong’o, together with the distinguished Senator for Kisii, Sen. Obure. They had four questions; one was the various persons from Nyamira and Kisii counties---
What is it, Sen. Okong’o? The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am surprised that the Chairperson is responding yet the standard procedure in this House is that I should be supplied with the written statement so that I can be in a position to deal and interrogate.
I am sorry; what did you say?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I said that the standard procedure in the House is that the written response should have been supplied to me in advance in order to allow me to critique it---
You do not have a copy?
I have not been supplied with a copy.
Sen. Madzayo, why is that the case? Or have you just got it?
Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I have just received the answer. I had asked Sen. Obure whether he would be comfortable if I went go through it.
But this is a statement which was sought by Sen. Okong’o.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it involved both the Senators.
Now, let me see. What is the purport of your point of order, Sen. Okong’o? Are you not ready to receive the statement? If that is so, I will understand and I will be with you. So, maybe I should then ask Sen. Madzayo to give you a copy of the statement and it can be answered tomorrow. Is that good for you, if you have not seen it at all?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, that will be okay so that we can be supplied with the written statement. I agree with you that it can be given tomorrow so that we can critique it.
It is so ordered; the statement will be given tomorrow afternoon. Supply him with a copy of the written statement. I am happy that you had discussed it with Sen. Obure, but, you see, it would appear as if Sen. Obure did not have the authority to receive the statement on behalf of Sen. Okong’o.
So, that is it for now. Sen. Njoroge is not here. Let us hear Sen. Wangari.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I had actually put an intervention because the Speaker has ruled earlier that any statement becomes the property of the House. That is the matter of procedure. Apart from practice, it is mandatory for Chairpersons to give the written statements prior to reading them in the House. I just want a clarification on that issue.
Well, how do you interrogate a statement that you have not had time to look at? These statements are important for our procedures. The correct thing to do is to give the person who has sought the statement a copy of it, so that he or she can raise issues on it. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, for the guidance. However, let me move on to the more important issue. If I am allowed to ask for a statement that I had requested on---
Order, Sen. Wangari! You have to intervene. What are you seeking now? You have raised an issue and I have dealt with it.
Okay. So, do I put the intervention again?
As I said at the beginning, Sen. Wangari, you know how to do things correctly, do you not? Today we had a bit of a problem at the beginning because most people were not here when we began. I said that I am going to reorganize the Order Paper so that we can have the Paper laid by Sen. Obure and then a Notice of Motion given by Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. Sen. Martha Wangari, what is the point of order now? What is your intervention? DESTRUCTION OF INSULIN MEANT FOR CHILDREN WITH DIABETES
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am just seeking to do the things right. I am sorry for the prior confusion because I thought I could still do it under the same intervention. But if you allow me, on 1st of October,2014, I requested for a statement from the Standing Committee on Health on the issue of the destroyed insulin medication that was in Kenyatta National Hospital (KNH) for children with Diabetes Type II. That issue was due on 21st but it was deferred to last week; last week it was again deferred to this week. I am still waiting for that response from that Committee.
Sen. Kittony, you are the Chairperson of that Committee. This issue has been outstanding for a very long time. Do you have anything to say about it now?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am a Kenyan and I really would like to know my status. I have been listening to what has gone on this afternoon. I know that you have made a ruling, but just allow me because I think it is very important for us to know where you come from. I know where I was born and I know where I live. But if this is what it is, then it is very important for me to know whether I am a foreigner or I am a Kenyan; and I live as a Kenyan where I am. Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I wanted to be heard and to be in the HANSARD.
Sen. Kittony, I was addressing you as the Chairperson of the Committee on Health!
I am sorry, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. What question was that? I did not hear your question; I was a bit disturbed. I wanted to be sure who I am. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Sen. Kitonyi, there was a statement that was sought a very long time ago on the destruction of insulin. It was sought by Sen. Martha Wangari, it was supposed to have come back as long as 21st of September or October, I am not sure of the date. It is quite sometimes back. That statement has not been issued. Do you have the statement or what is the position about that statement?
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker Sir---
Sen. Lesan, I have not called you. We know we must take this House seriously. I am addressing Sen. Kitonyi.
Order! I am not seeing any intervention from Sen. (Prof) Lesan. I do not know what you are standing up to do. Sen. Kitonyi, can I have an answer from you, please? If Sen. (Prof.) Lesan wants to answer on your behalf, then he should show that he wants to intervene.
We will give the answer in two weeks.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this issue was very urgent. I asked for it on 1st October 2014, and the Speaker has ruled consistently that it be brought the following week. We are now on 5th of November of 2014. It would be very unfair for me to ask for another two weeks. In fact, I should ask that the answer be brought tomorrow.
Indeed, I would say that the Committee on Health is not taking this issue seriously. That is the statement I would like to make now. Sen. (Prof.) Lesan was here when the issue was raised not so long ago. Sen. Ziporah Kitonyi; the Chairperson was here. The HANSARD is there and I am sure the Clerk’s office has sent this request for statement to the committee. Therefore, I do not think it is right to casually say that you will give it in two weeks. The House wants to know whether you will be able to issue this statement. If so, what are problems because it has been more than a month since the statement was sought? This matter came up only last week in the House.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker Sir. Indeed, this matter came back in the committee’s meeting this morning and we addressed the issue. The question on the drugs was directed to the Ministry of Health. The Ministry of Health attempted to answer that question, but we thought the national Treasury needs to deal with the issue of Kenya Revenue Authority (KRA). Therefore, it required that the question came back and was redirected to the Treasury to give an answer relating to the factors that affect the KRA. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we have been attempting to get this answer to the House as soon as possible. I am sure that if we are given another week or so, because the The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Very well, I direct that you give this answer on Wednesday 12th November, at 2.30 p.m., next week, so that this matter is put to rest.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the whole of this afternoon I have been lost because I wish Sen. ole Ndiema could explain to me the foreigner in that context.
Order, Senator! we have by passed that matter by more than half an hour ago. We have moved from that matter until an answer is given.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I thought that----
No. it is not possible, you are completely out of order! Yes, Sen. Abdirahman.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker Sir. I think there is something wrong with that part of the House today. I am sorry to say this because there seems to be constant confusion arising from either their mental absence or, probably, the lack of seriousness on the part of the Jubilee Government because they represent the Government. We are following a certain pattern or order in this House. Once you give your ruling on a matter, it is important for us to abide by it. It will save us a lot of time as the House to move on. I would rather you give us direction again.
I have given you direction. I have told Sen. Mshenga that she is out of order. What else do you want me to say? Sen. Wangari, your matter is finished; it shall be raised again on 12th Wednesday, November, 2014. That is when you shall get your statement. Now, I will go back once more for Sen. Obure to lay the paper. I can tell you that I am operating under Standing Order 39 to alter the Oder Paper.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker for indulging me. I beg to lay the following paper on the table of the Senate today, 5th Wednesday, November 2014. The Report of the Committee on Roads and Transportation on the maintenance of the Nairobi-Magadi Road. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you. Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. can you give your notice of Motion.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, for using your discretion under Standing Order No.39. However, I beg to give notice of the following Motion. THAT, noting the constitutional role of the Senate in the protection of the interest of counties and their governments and the implementation of the devolved systems of governments. Pursuant to Article 96 of the Constitution; aware that the 47 counties are based on the delineation of administrative districts as created under the Provinces and District Act of 1992; further aware that there exist deep-rooted and historical boundary disputes between the districts which were inherited by the resultant counties; aware that there are existing boundary disputes between various counties which raise questions on the exact boundaries between the counties; recognizing the provisions of Article 188 of the Constitution of Kenya that mandates Parliament to approve alteration of county boundaries on the recommendation of an independent commission set up for that purpose; the Senate urged the Sessional Committee on Devolved Government to initiate and prioritize the drafting of legislation within ninety days to provide for the establishment of an independent commission to inquire into, examine and indentify the boundaries of counties, taking into account the criteria set up in Article 188(2) of the Constitution and to recommend appropriate changes to Parliament so as to comprehensively deal and resolve the inter–county boundary disputes to enhance national cohesion and stability. Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker Sir.
Thank you, next Order.
Sen. Ole Ndiema was on the Floor. He had 12 minutes left when this matter was interrupted. I see that he is not here, so the Floor is open to any Member who wants to contribute to this Motion.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I thank the Committee which I belonged to, for doing very comprehensive work and bringing a report to the House for adoption. The Committee was initially known as the Committee on Education, Information and Technology. It was one of the most vibrant in this House. I am glad that we are seeing the results of the work that we did. As we speak, I am happy to report that the County of Nyamira, for instance, where we visited, is now laying the fibre terminal. This will assist young entrepreneurs, educational institutions and the rest to harness the work of ICT. It is also important to note that in most counties we visited appeared to be very vibrant and knowledgeable about matters of ICT. The current leadership and management of the Committee on ICT needed to follow up on where we left so that they can work effectively to embrace this technology. As you are aware, we are working on Vision 2030 which requires that we comply. It is unfortunate that the Jubilee Government, headed by the President, gave a promise to young children but that has become a mirage. It is important that if they have failed to deliver on that promise, we explore other avenues. We can use the CDF money to work on this. The infrastructure, especially from Lamu Port Southern Sudan-Ethiopia Transport (LAPSSET) Corridor project is on course. It is important that each and every Kenyan especially those in learning institutions embrace this technology. The work of this Committee was exemplary. We want to ask them to continue working with other institutions in this framework so that Kenya, which is a business hub in this region, can ensure that our people in the counties benefit effectively from this technology. We are aware that banks like the Equity Bank want to be part of this business. We want to encourage young entrepreneurs and other persons. I also want to ask the Government to fast track the stagnated arrangements so that banks like Equity can be allowed to work on this network and enable many Kenyans attain the goals they have set in this area. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Hon. Senators, there are no other Senators interested in debating. The Mover is not also here to reply. That was Sen. Mutahi Kagwe and he is not here to reply. The Motion before us does not affect counties. The Mover is not here and making a reply is not mandatory. Therefore, I will put a question.
AVERTING LOOMING BREAKDOWN OF HEALTH SERVICES IN COUNTIES OVER MEDICAL PRACTITIONERS’ CONCERNS THAT, aware that health services have been devolved in accordance with the Fourth Schedule to the Constitution and that medical doctors and other health practitioners in the public sector have been transferred or are being transferred to the counties; concerned that there is an acute shortage of medical professionals, especially consultants, in the counties, and particularly in rural counties; further concerned that public health personnel, particularly doctors, are apprehensive that their terms of service, including training, pension, remuneration, professional advancement and welfare are not assured and as a result are seeking for employment in private medical institutions in urban centres; cognizant of the grave danger their departure poses to the health sector; the Senate calls upon the National and County Governments to urgently address the concerns of medical practitioners to avert the looming breakdown of health services in counties.
The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On this Motion, Sen. Peter Mositet had six minutes to make his contribution. So, the Motion is still open for debate. Sen. (Prof.) Lesan, are you seeking the Floor?
No, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Sen. Nabwala, you may proceed.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I rise to add my voice on this important Motion concerning the shortage of doctors in our counties. We know that health is a devolved function and most of the responsibilities lie with the counties to ensure that health facilities are functioning. However, they are facing challenges. One challenge is that when doctors were transferred, there should have been wide consultations between the Kenya Medical Dentists and Practitioners’ Board (KMDPB) which is a body that regulates and works closely with doctors. Doctors feel insecure working in the counties. The reason they feel so is because of training. In the past, we know that the national Government was responsible for training of doctors. They have also been trained in many other courses outside the country. So, when a doctor is transferred to a county, particularly in the remote areas, those facilities are not there. Most hospitals in the counties are ill-equipped. They do not have facilities for dialysis and no medicine. If we transfer a highly qualified doctor to a county who would maybe like to use his skills to help the patients but then you find that the facilities are not there. So these doctors are not really challenged; that is why you find that most of them seek greener pastures elsewhere. Mr. Temporary Speaker, sir, in terms of remuneration, when the doctors were transferred from the national Government to the county governments, this should have been made clear so that when you go to the county government, you know at what level you are going to serve the county. These doctors serve in various job groups at the national Government whereas in the counties, we do not have those particular structures. So this is a challenge to the doctors. Kenya, as country is already facing a shortage of doctors as per the World Health Organisation (WHO) standards. This is one issue that I think the national Government and the county governments should work closely together to sort out because the migration of doctors from counties is making patients suffer. Devolution was meant to move services closer to the people and if we cannot deliver services as doctors, then we are not helping the people in the counties. Our own people are really suffering. Therefore, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, it is very important that the doctors’ issues are addressed by both the county and the national governments with the involvement of all the stakeholders, like health professional bodies, Non-Governmental Organizations (NGOs) and development partners.
The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to add my voice to this timely Motion. The first mistake that maybe the Senate made was to unbundle this function. This function could have been left to the national Government. It is ironical that the national Government remains with 85 per cent of the national budget and the meager 15 per cent that is sent to the counties is even left to health care facilities. Madam Temporary Speaker, mistake number two on this line is when governors, some of whom do not understand the problems faced by medics, are left to be in charge of health care. For instance, in Nyamira County, we have a hospital called Nyamira Level Four Hospital. I have been to that hospital two to three times, playing my oversight role and what I saw in there is terrible. If you go to the kitchen, you will be surprised to see what the patients eat; it is a semblance of a kitchen. If you go to the mortuary, you will wonder because corpses are stacked over one another and a small five litre container of formalin is hanging as a preservative. When a medical superintendent who is educated The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Sen. Wangari, do you have an intervention? What is your intervention?
Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. Is the Senator for Nyamira in order to condemn this House for unbundling a function and taking it to the county, yet we know that that role was done by the framers of the Constitution, we voted for it and the Fourth Schedule is very clear on how these functions are allocated?
Are you giving information---
No, it is a point of order. Is he in order?
Is he out of order? Proceed, Sen. Okong’o.
Madam Temporary Speaker, all these functions were unbundled in the Constitution, but it was not mandatory for us to unbundle them to the counties if they were not ready to take that position. So I do not think I am out of order to give such a sentiment. I said “maybe the first mistake we may have made.” I used the word “May.”
You are not out of order. You are giving your opinion on this Bill and I think you are within the confines of the provisions.
Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. As I was saying, some of these problems we are facing especially when I am talking about a county hospital called Nyamira Level Four Hospital, whereby I have had issues with the County Government, I play my role of oversight. I do not have to tell anyone that I am going to any area of Nyamira County. So, when I made my impromptu visit to that hospital, it cost the job of our medical superintendent. That is why it is very important for the national government and the county governments to come up with mechanisms of arresting these situations. It takes many years of agony for a doctor to rise to the status of a medical superintendent. So, when an officer in the name of a governor transfers him from that position to another hospital without really understanding or addressing the issues that have been raised, it is sad and tragic. These medical superintendants in all hospitals do not have a kitty to arrest situations. Madam Temporary Speaker, at one time, the same hospital lacked oxygen. I happened to be in the county and I was talking to the finance officer, who is a very young man. I asked him what the problem was since people were dying at the hospital. He told me that there were bureaucratic procurement procedures to follow. That is why it is very important that maybe the national and county governments, in liaison, need to come up with a body, maybe a medical service board whereby it will be very difficult for anybody to transfer a person without following very well laid down procedures. Madam Temporary Speaker, that is why this Motion is timely. It is very important that the national Government, which keeps 85 per cent of the money, should reconsider dealing with the issue of health because they are as essential as the issue of security. If the Jubilee coalition Government is not going to work fast and send money to the counties, the Okoa Kenya Initiative will become even more popular, so that more money The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker, for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this Motion. We, in Meru County, are very embarrassed because – when I talk about embarrassment, I am talking about pecuniary embarrassment – the Level Five hospital in Meru which we used to call the Meru General Hospital is on the verge of collapse. The annual recurrent expenditure for that hospital is about Kshs300 million. You know the struggle we went through in this House when we tried to increase the allocation of funds for Level Five hospitals. Although there were revisions in figures, we, in Meru County, got the lowest amount in allocations because out of our request of Kshs300 million which is the budget that has been given to us in the last financial year, this year we were only given Kshs68 million. We do not know what to do with the Kshs68 million; whether to buy drugs, to pay some staffers and not others or to close part of the hospital. Madam Temporary Speaker, I think when these funds are being allocated, it is very important to look at the functions that are taking place at an institution instead of drawing a line and giving out the money arbitrarily without any basis at all. We have told them to spend the money and when it is finished, those who gave us will tell us what to do with the hospital. We are staring at a crisis because maybe that money is going to run out by December this year and we will be staring at a new crisis in January largely because of poor planning of public finances particularly in the health sector. We have seen what the devolved funds have done. All our dispensaries and health centres are now well equipped. We are regularly getting supplies of medicine. In the past, we used to wait even a whole year without any delivery of drugs taking place. I must comment the County Government of Meru, especially our County Executive officer for health Dr. Morara, because he has done a great job in making sure that health facilities are well equipped and we have also got ambulances in some of the health facilities which we had asked for, for many years, but we could not be given. I must say that we are enjoying the benefits of devolution in the health sector in those lower levels but there is a real challenge in Level Five hospitals. Madam Temporary Speaker, this Motion is very important because I know there is a push in the Senate for us to have referral hospitals in every county, even in the counties where the Level Five hospitals do not exist today. We expect that in the next few years, there are going to be at least 47 county Level Five hospitals in all the counties. The challenge we are going to face is the retention of qualified specialists in those counties. We are already experiencing this problem. There are some counties where we do not have enough indigenous specialists and we have to rely on other counties. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Your time is up. You know we are digital now, but I think you still have a minute or so.
Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. You have been very generous to me.
Okay. Proceed, Sen. Ong’era
Madam Temporary Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to also support this Motion. From the outset, let me congratulate Sen. Ndiema for bringing up this important Motion that is discussing the state of health services in our counties. As you are aware, since September 2013, many doctors have resigned from public hospitals in Kenya. The highest number of these doctors who resigned was in Embu County where over 16 doctors resigned. This is unacceptable. We, as the Senate, must interrogate these issues and come up with a solution. The reasons why many of these medical practitioners are resigning is because of the many problems which are really genuine. Amongst these problems, I want to highlight three of which I think are very critical in this country. Madam Temporary Speaker, one of them is that they have inadequate funds to pay the doctors or the medical practitioners. As you know, we have been trying severally in this Senate to raise the budget for medical facilities in the counties but this keeps on being shot down at the National Assembly. It is high time that we amended the relevant provisions of the law including the Constitution so that the Senate can actually deal with the allocation of revenues directly and the matter is finalized here in the Senate. We cannot have a situation where doctors do not have guaranteed security of tenure. We cannot have a situation where doctors are not guaranteed that at the end of the month they know whether they will get their salaries or not. We cannot have a situation where we know that health services are actually one of the most important essential services in this country but we are holding doctors at ransom; these are the people who provide services or and a key instrument in the provision of those services. The manner in which we are treating our medical practitioners is unacceptable. We are not respecting them despite the fact that they offer a very important service. Madam Temporary Speaker, when I look at the national budget, it grieves me to note that security is given the highest amount of money and yet the state of insecurity in this country leaves a lot to be desired. Yet health, which is also an essential service, the money is not being devolved down to the counties. It is high time that we reduced the number of personnel at the Ministry of Health Services here at the national level. What work are these people doing other than just sitting in their offices and calling it a day? The real work – as you know because of devolution – lies in the counties and that is where the money needs to be devolved to. We need to bring an amendment to the Medical Health Act to ensure that we leave just skeleton personnel at the national The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Yes, Sen. Adan
Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker, for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this important Motion. We do not have to regret having devolved this particular function because we made a decision as a country that this service should be transferred to county governments. However, in my opinion, we should have come up with proper structures in terms of devolving this important function. This is a service that touches on the lives of Kenyans. The way we have handled it is like we have pushed all the services to the county governments without them being prepared. If I was asked, I would have said that we should have come up with a structure where we upgraded all the hospitals within the counties before we transferred all the services. That way, they would have managed to take care of themselves. I am saying this because most of these hospitals, especially the district hospitals, are worse than they were when they were under the national The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Madam Speaker. I want to start by congratulating the Mover of this Motion. It is a very timely Motion because what we are going through as a country in the health sector is actually a time bomb. When I was a Member of the Committee on Devolved Government, the practitioners had seen this problem quite early. They had seen the signs and they had come to petition the Committee with a proposal on what needs to be done. I know there have been numerous problems. There has been even clamour to get referral hospitals like my colleague Sen. Kiraitu has said in every county. If you cannot secure funding for the few existing referral hospitals that are in the counties today, the budget has been halfed, it would be almost impossible to run 47 referral hospitals. The challenges experienced by the practitioners at the county level are quite serious. They have articulated these issues in the media and even come to the Senate. They are looking upon us to make a decision. In any employment, what you look for is job security, on the job training and being able to have a clear mind when you are working. But today, it has become a political decision on how this will be done at the counties. This is terrible. If we are not able to create confidence in these practitioners, there will be haemorrhage, it has already started. There are opportunities outside this country. These practitioners are taking them because when they look at what they expect at the end of the month, they are not even assured of their salaries. They have committed their salaries to other obligations, maybe a mortgage or a loan that they are paying using the same salary. It is not an assurance any more. How then do we attract other youngsters to join this profession if we are not able to manage the ones that we have? I know a Senator had earlier said that the highest we get in the health centres in some counties is a clinical officer or a nurse. That is the person who is commonly known as daktari because we cannot attract any higher. Either they are retained in Nairobi, as has been said earlier, or they have left. The uncertainty in this sector will drag this whole country down. Madam Temporary Speaker, I know the issue of policy and standards has been left for the national Government. But if you read the Constitution in Article 189, it talks of cooperation between the national and county governments. We must be able to join these two levels of government in working together for the benefit of the country. Article 189(1)(c) states as follow:- “Government at either level shall— ( c ) liaise with government at the other level for the purpose of exchanging information, coordinating policies and administration and enhancing capacity.” What we have suffered these few months, like 19 or 20 months ago since this function went to the counties is that the county governments do not want to be told how to do it. They want to run and be the ones doing the staffing. They do not want the national Government anywhere. We cannot work like that. This function has been in the national Government. We have had our share of problems, but the problems that we are having now are worse than they were when the sector was under the national Government. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker, for allowing me to contribute to this Motion. First, we must agree that when we are starting something, we must have teething problems. But we should not allow the teething problems to be a problem that will make us to fail to achieve what we wanted to achieve. Madam Temporary Speaker, the starting point is all about devolving functions and the funds. We do not see the reason why most functions should be devolved to the county governments, as per the Constitutional requirements, but the financial support is not devolved fully. This is becoming a problem. There are three functions that we, as a country and we, as legislators, must take seriously. These are the areas of education, health and the security of our people. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
The Senate Majority Chief Whip, Sen. Beatrice Elachi. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Madam Temporary Speaker, I also rise to support the Motion. Indeed, the health sector is a devolved function. The moment you devolve a function, bringing it back to the national Government becomes challenging. I know that this is a process that we started last year. We have had many challenges in agreeing with the practitioners. As we move on, I want to appreciate the counties. I know we have counties that are doing well in terms of building facilities. In this Senate, maybe we need to have a clear report on the status of health facilities in the counties. Having said that, we know that it has been a challenge for us to request the national Government to retain the remuneration of doctors at the national level. This is something that this House should follow up on. When we sit together, as Members of the different committees that are involved, the Committee of Devolved Government and the Committee on Health, this should be one of our proposals. I know that the health practitioners were challenging the way promotions are done, following up on pensions and how to ensure that they are still appreciated in the work that they do. We still have a challenge of doctors in terms of their numbers. We know that we have fewer doctors. The Senate should guide the country because this is the House that ensures that functions are devolved with the resources required. We have different challenges within the health sector. We have challenges facing clinical officers, nurses, doctors and the different skilled practitioners. As we move on, I know that our Government will ensure that we bring in critical facilities that will enable practitioners to have a better environment to work. However, as they do that, we urge the Government to ensure that their remuneration is taken care of so that we do not have different facilities in the country suffering. We also need to go beyond that and ask ourselves, as Senate, how we will audit the different dispensaries that we have. I know that through the CDF and the devolved funds, we have many dispensaries that have been built. Do we have facilities and medical practitioners? This is something that this House must look at. As we complete the year, the Motion will come in very handy. The year is coming to an end and we need to do an audit. We need to ask ourselves, by the time we were devolving the health sector, how many medical practitioners we had. We also need to find out, in the time that we have faced challenges, how many have moved to the private sector and what shortage we have. We have a huge shortage in the health sector. The Government had promised to employ more. I think it is this Motion that we need to follow up. Can we urge the Government, as it increases the number of teachers, to also look at the health sector? We need to move on knowing that within the service sectors of health, schools and the police, we have a balance that takes care of the local mwananchi that we are trying to serve. The biggest challenge we face now is to ask the Senate and the National Assembly to look at their reports and harmonise them. It is important for the sector to agree that once in a while the two Committees can sit together and give a way forward to Parliament as an institution in the challenges it faces. The House will then have knowledge on how to deal with the issue. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker for allowing me to contribute in support of this very timely Motion. This Motion is very emotional in the sense that we are discussing a life of a person and the state in which Kenyans are living in today. We are discussing the desperate attempts by the Government to rescue those who are sick and they cannot be rescued. The Ministry of Health ranks among the service Ministries just like the Ministry of Education. For the Ministry of Education not to have been devolved, it means that there was something that was not considered. We should have even devolved national schools to counties which cannot afford to maintain the services. Provincial schools should have been fitted in the former districts which would not have coped. When the Transition Authority (TA) devolved the health services to the counties, they should have considered many things before that decision was made. Madam Temporary Speaker, there are many hospitals in pathetic conditions. I can quote Kerugoya Hospital in my county. If you go to that hospital, you will find patients sharing beds while others are sleeping on the floor. It does not matter whether one is coughing and another one is smiling; they are all dumped together. Some hospitals do not have hospital uniforms and patients sleep without blankets. The wards are very cold, particularly during the months of June and July. Some of them do not have driers to dry their clothes and so, they sleep in wet clothes. These hospitals should at least be elevated to the level of the former district hospitals. We should implement the terms of this Motion to the letter so that we save our people who are suffering. Those of us who are in Nairobi are at least better off. How about those people living in areas which are very far from the capital City? The other weekend 20 askaris were killed and to airlift even one of them was a problem. I know not all of them were going to die because of gunshots. At least a helicopter should have been provided to go and airlift the officers. We could even have hired the African Air Rescue (AAR) helicopters. We do not even have anything that can save somebody from a marauding lion in north eastern Kenya or in the Mara. If somebody were to be bitten by a snake somewhere in Tana River, he or she cannot be airlifted because those facilities are not there. Why are we not serious about our people? Our people depend on what we legislate in this House and that is the reason why this Motion has come so that we can exonerate ourselves from the blame and tell the Government that there is need to think about this problem. Madam Temporary Speaker, we have medical personnel who have been trained using a lot of Government funds. To train a doctor, it costs more than Kshs5 million at the University of Nairobi, but still they are not enough because there are so many people who need the services of doctors. These people will go for greener pastures because they have also suffered to become what they are and so they will not go to wherever the TA would prefer them to be, but offer services elsewhere. They will go to where employment is more lucrative, for example, overseas hospitals where the remuneration is more attractive than here in Kenya. The doctors and nurses work under very risky circumstances and yet we do not compensate them. They can easily be infected with any kind of disease while handling their patients, because they are the first ones who handle the patients. Before a patient The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Order. Your time is up. We are really digital and our time keeping is perfect. Do you support the Motion?
I support, Madam Temporary Speaker, Sir. However, the timer did not show the red colour.
It did, you were not looking. Sen. Mvita Mshenga Kisasa, you have the floor.
Asante sana, Bi Spika wa Muda. Kwanza, naomba kutoa hongera zangu kwa Mama wa Taifa, Bi Margaret Kenyatta, kwa kazi nzuri anayofanya. Nia yake hasa ni kuona kuwa tunaishi vizuri na hakuna vifo vinavyotokana na maradhi yoyote. Anataka kupunguza vifo hivi virudi chini kabisa. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. Did you hear the Kiswahili that the Senator has used in the House, “Shagala Bagala”? I do not know whether that is part of Kiswahili or English. What is it?
Sen. Kisasa, you choose to address us in Kiswahili. We have a problem with that word, is it a Kiswahili word?
Bi Spika wa Muda, hilo ni tamko la Kiswahili ambalo lina maana kuwa hakuna mwelekeo; kitu ambacho hakiangaliwi au hakiwekwi inavyotakikana kiwe. Ndiyo ninasema “Shagala bagala.”
Sen. Karaba, that is a Kiswahili word. You need to update your spoken Kiswahili.
All right, Madam Temporary Speaker.
Proceed, Sen. Kisasa.
Bi. Spika wa Muda, tukiangalia yote haya, utaona ya kwamba tuna hitaji uhusiano ama ushirikiano kwenye kaunti na Serikali kuu. Tusiseme zile hospitali za kaunti zitaachiwa tu kaunti. Lazima tuwe na ushirikiano kabisa. Kama nilivyosema hapo The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. This is a very straight forward Motion although it is stressing more on private practitioners and doctors without talking of the services. You can have very good doctors or personnel, but they may not have facilities that will give them the ability to do what they are supposed to do. The issue of services ought to have been part of this Motion. If doctors are leaving the county governments to go to private hospitals, personally I have no problem with that. The reason for them to find opportunities in private hospitals is because of the shortage of doctors. If we have more doctors in this country, doctors will work better than they are working today. The current shortage has created a lot of excuses. That is what the Government and the county governments need to look at. They need to make sure that the shortage of doctors is no longer allowed to go as it is. The purpose of educating men and women is to serve the whole nation and even outside the nation. There can never be boundaries between Kenya and Uganda for professionals. If somebody gets a well paying job in Uganda, he has a right to cross the border. Nobody is trained because he wants to die for you or for the members of the public; such people are very few, if any. Medical practitioners are employed and they are just like any other professionals. So, we need to find out why we are in this situation. We should ask ourselves a few questions; before devolution, did we have enough doctors? The way we are talking now, it is as if a situation has arisen which no one knew about. But I want to assure you that we had this problem where you and I come from; we never had sufficient medical personnel. It is not just medical personnel, even the structures to give these people the opportunity to treat men and women were not sufficient. But now, in the same area we have come from, we find three men or women in one hospital bed waiting to be helped. This is a major issue than the doctors themselves. We need to facilitate the few doctors that we have; they need to feel comfortable with the The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Senator, your time is up. Do you support the Motion?
Madam Temporary Speaker, I beg to support the Motion.
I do not see any further requests to contribute, so I call upon the Mover to reply.
Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I beg to reply. First of all, I want to really thank the Senators who have contributed to this Motion. They have brought out all the issues that are facing our hospitals in general and more specifically, the problems facing the health personnel, including doctors, nurses, clinical officers and all cadres of workers in the hospitals. Madam Temporary Speaker, I am glad that those who have spoken have all agreed that there is a problem that should be addressed by both levels of Government. The real challenges that have come out have to do with finances. The county governments, with the allocations that they currently have, are not able to provide services including proper remuneration to their staff. This is true because as we are talking some counties have not been able to pay their personnel on time. I am aware of a hospital in my county where the temporary staff - people who are at the low level in terms of staffing - have gone without salary for some months because of the limited finances that are available. If temporary staff at the low levels cannot be managed or remunerated, what about the specialists in those areas? Very soon, there will be a problem. Madam Temporary Speaker, under the Maputo Declaration, agriculture is supposed to get 10 per cent of the national budget. There is a similar declaration concerning health where we have undertaken to provide 15 per cent. The two functions, which are devolved in this country, according to the Constitution should be getting 25 per cent of the national budget. We are all aware that the total budget going to the counties for all functions is nowhere near there because whatever is allocated is also shared with other departments, Ministries or functions and the administrative work of the county. Therefore, it is important that allocations to counties be enhanced so that health services do not suffer. Madam Temporary Speaker, the issue of personnel has also come up. Most counties do not have adequate personnel especially at the specialist level. We, in the Senate have resolved that every county should have a Level 5 hospital. That is what we are all aiming to move towards. In Kitale and Trans Nzoia, we have resolved to move to that direction. However, we may have physical facilities, but then where shall we get personnel if they are not transferrable freely from other institutions? The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
I want to state that I have looked at this Motion and I have come to the conclusion that it does not affect counties to the extent that it does not confer any undue advantage on any one county. I will therefore proceed to put the question. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Sen. Leshore communicated to the Chair that he had been summoned to attend a Parliamentary Service Commission (PSC) meeting and, therefore, this Motion has been deferred.
This Sen. Anyang’-Nyong’o’s Motion, and since he is not in the House, it is deferred.
Madam Temporary Speaker, Sir, I beg to move:- The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Order Senator. Take note that this is a Committee report and it falls under the provisions of Standing Order No. 100. As a Mover, you have one hour. If you wish to continue with your statement when we resume, you still have 42 minutes.
Hon Senators, it is now time to adjourn the Senate. The time being 6.30 p.m, the business of the Senate stands adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday 6th November, 2014 at 2.30 p.m. The Senate rose at 6.30 p.m. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.