Hon. Senators, I have a Communication to make on the submission of the Public Finance Management (National Government Regulations 2015), Public Finance Management (County Government Regulations 2015) and Legal Notice for Declaration of the National Government Entities (State Organs). Hon. Senators, Section 205(1) of the Public Finance Management Act gives the Cabinet Secretary responsible for Finance powers to make regulations to give effect to some provisions of the Act. Section 205(4) of the Public Finance Management Act, further provides that such regulations made by the Cabinet Secretary must be approved by a resolution passed by Parliament. Hon. Senators, pursuant to the above provisions and by a letter reference number. CONF.1/022/Vol.II/95, dated 13th March, 2015, addressed to the Clerk of the Senate,the Principal Secretary in the National Treasury submitted the following:- (i) Draft public finance management (national Government) regulations, 2015. (ii) Draft public finance management (county governments) regulations, 2015. (iii) Draft Legal Notice for declaration of the National Government Entities (State Organs). Hon.Senators, I now direct the Chairperson of the Sessional Committee on Delegated Legislation to table the three draft Legal Notices and, further, that the draft Legal Notices be committed to the Sessional Committee on Delegated Legislation for consideration. The Committee should file its Report on or before Thursday 26th March, 2015 and this is significant for deliberation by the Senate pursuant to section 205(4) of the Public Finance Management Act. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to lay the following Papers on the Table:- 1. Legal Notice No.19 on Operation of Motor Cycles Regulations, 2015 2. Legal Notice No.19 on Operation of Tourist Service Vehicles 3. Legal Notice No.11 on the Traffic Amendment Rules, 2015 4. Draft Public Finance Management (National Government) Regulations, 2015 5. Draft Public Finance Management (County Governments) Regulations, 2015 6. Draft Legal Notice for Declaration of National Government Entities (State Organs) Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Where is the Chairperson of the Committee on Agriculture, Livestock and Fisheries? CLOSURE OF LIVESTOCK MARKETS IN WEST POKOT COUNTY
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. At the Senate sitting held on 17th February, 2015, Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo rose under Standing Order No.45 to request for a Statement from the Chairperson of the Committee on Agriculture, Livestock and Fisheries regarding the closure of livestock markets by the Director of Veterinary Services in West Pokot County on 15th January, 2015, because of an outbreak of foot and mouth disease affecting cows. The Senator wanted to know; one, whether the Chairperson is aware that the closure has adversely affected parents, because they were unable to take their children to secondary schools, especially Form One. The response is that West Pokot County The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I want to thank the Vice Chairperson for the detailed and comprehensive answer to the Statement I sought. But in as much as he has tried to give the facts and the details, he has not satisfied me. I am concerned that the people in my county have been unable to take their children to school for failure to sell their livestock. The people of West Pokot primarily depend on cows, sheep and goats for their day to day survival. It is now two months down the line and the Chairperson is still giving an answer which is not stating clearly when this ban will be lifted. Secondly, he is not telling me when and how these children will be assisted to get school fees, yet he knows that this Government is able. Whenever we have a tragedy like floods, a department quickly releases money to assist the people who have been affected by these floods. Thirdly, whenever we have an outbreak like Cholera, for example, like now in some parts of Migori, the Government takes measures very fast to assist the affected people. The same is true when we have disasters like landslides; the Government moves in very quickly to assist them. In this case, I wanted to hear him say that he is going to treat this problem that has come---
Order, Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo! You need to seek clarifications and not state what you expected to hear. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir. This is exactly what he was supposed to tell me; how we can remedy the situation and ensure that the children go back to school. As it is now, it is not good news for anybody to hear that.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I appreciate the effects of the ban or the effects of the disease on the community. In the event that it has reached a disaster level, it can be addressed by both the county and national governments. This is because disasters are a function of both the county and national governments. I believe that the county government is in a position, through its budgetary process, to allocate adequate funds to meet such requirements in addition to what it provides as bursaries for the needy students. This is a matter for the county government to look at. If it feels that it is unable to do so, that matter can be handled, I believe, through the machinery and other consultative processes between the county and national governments. We, as the Committee on Agriculture, Livestock and Fisheries, have handled the matter to the extent to which it matters to us. Perhaps the rest is for the relevant departments responsible for disaster management, finance and so on, and so forth. Thank you.
Finally, proceed, Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The Vice Chairperson is evading answering the question. Right now, he has no problem in Trans-Nzoia, because the Government has subsidized fertilizer from Kshs3,500 to Kshs1,800. So, he is so comfortable because he has been assisted, but I am not comfortable. Even my neighbours - Turkana and Baringo counties - are in the same scenario. Could he further clarify when the people of my county will be assisted with this subsidy of fees payment the way he has been assisted in terms of provision of cheap fertilizers?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, while I appreciate that West Pokot County has been affected by foot and mouth disease, I know Trans-Nzoia has been affected more than West Pokot County. There is a section in West Pokot County which has not been affected by this disease. The whole of Trans-Nzoia and many other counties have been affected by foot and mouth disease. So, the problem of foot and mouth disease is more widespread than it is. When we talk about fertilizer, West Pokot is also an agricultural county and got the subsidized fertilizer. In fact, they even got---
Order! The issues---
In fact, they even got Diammonium Phosphate (DAP) fertilizer. However, for the first time in history, Trans-Nzoia has been discriminated against and has not got any DAP fertilizer as I am talking today. It is unfortunate because rains are just around the corner. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Order, Sen. Ndiema! I know that Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo put you a bit on the defensive, but you should have recognized it for what it was. Yes, you are the Vice Chairperson of the Senate Committee on Agriculture, Livestock and Fisheries. However, just because you come from Trans-Nzoia County, you would not wish to see your county discriminated in any way. All counties must get the kind of subsidy that is applicable, whether in West Pokot or Trans-Nzoia County. So, let us conclude this and proceed. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I have already communicated with Sen. Bule. We have agreed that because I have received the Statement---
Order, Chairpersons and Members! If you have reached some agreement with a Senator, just approach me. Let us not waste valuable time on the Floor. We have a lot of Business to transact.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have one Statement from my Ministry to deliver it to Sen. Adan.
Where is she?
She is called---
Proceed, Chairperson. MANAGEMENT CRISIS, ALARMING DECLINING ACADEMIC PERFORMANCE AND RAMPANT THEFT OF SCHOOL PROPERTY IN GARBATULA HIGH SCHOOL, ISIOLO COUNTY
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Statement is here with me. Pursuant to Senate Standing Order No. 45(2), Sen. Adan requested for a Statement from the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Education regarding the management crisis---
What is it Sen. Haji?
Sen. Hassan Omar, you should be satisfied that the system is working. I have seen your request; you do not have to verbalize your request. Proceed, Sen. Haji.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Could the Chairperson of the Committee on Education clarify whether we have such a Senator here or not?
You did not say Sen. Adan.
Have you not heard?
Sen. Adan had---
Order, Mr. Chairman! The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Order, Mr. Chairman! Sen. Haji is contesting who Sen. Adan is.
She is here; are you not the one? She is Sen. Fatuma Dullo Adan.
I am responding to her Statement regarding the mismanagement crisis, the alarming declining academic performance and the rampant theft of Garbatula High School property. The Senator requested the Chairperson of the Committee on Education to clarify:- (a) Whether the Ministry of Education, Science and Technology and the Teachers Service Commission (TSC) have plans to overhaul the school’s Board of Governors, which is also called the Board of Management. (b) Explain why the current school principal is still in office despite having attained the retirement age. (c) State and explain disciplinary measures the Ministry of Education, Science and Technology and TSC intend to take against the current and former school management boards for failure to secure school property. (d) State and explain measures the Ministry of Education, Science and Technology plans to take to secure the school property and improve the performance, in view of the school’s re-evaluation to national status. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wish to respond to the issues raised by the Senator as follows:- (a) Yes, the Ministry has plans---
Order, Mr. Chairman! Let me assist you, you do not have more than five minutes. Proceed along those lines.
Okay. Yes, the Ministry has plans to overhaul the Board and it is in the process. The last executive meeting held on 12th December, 2014, was held to discuss theft of computers and many other things in the school. (b) Garbatula High School was closed in 1990 due to insecurity. Upon reopening, a local head teacher was deployed and so many other heads have been there until the current principal called Mr. Charles Kamau Mbithi, TSC No. 260069, was deployed in May, 2013. Therefore, the current principal is on a three year contract and has been tasked to build and restore the school to its past glory. (c) Following the answer in “b”, the issue of disciplinary measures against the current principal does not arise. (d) To improve performance, the TSC has posted adequate teaching staff and deployed a competent head with a good performance background. Before Mr. Mbithi was posted to Garbatula High School, there had been a high turnover of principals in the school which has had five principals since 2007, denoting lack of stability in the management. However, the school has managed to achieve relative calm for the last two years since the new principal took over the management of the school. There have been no reports of a crisis witnessed in the school in the recent past. Thank you. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I am looking at the Order Paper for the day and the Statements that are expected to be delivered today are listed clearly. We expected three Statements from the Chairperson of the Committee on Education, and the Statement that he has just delivered is not one of those that are listed on the Order Paper. Is he in order? Otherwise, what will be the whole point of printing an Order Paper and then we do not follow the sequence on the Order Paper?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, with all due respect, I had sought permission from the Speaker. We had an agreement since the other answers were not forthcoming. I had one which was delivered last week although the Questioner was not in. I wonder whether it is possible to deliver the statement today. The one which is listed is----
Order! That is correct. The statement was due last week. He requested that we allow him to deliver it today. However, you are right. We should deal with the ones which were due today. There are some which may not be prosecuted today. They will, therefore, overlap to subsequent days.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, first and foremost, I am grateful to the Chairman for giving the statement. However, it is a pity that he wants to portray a situation where there is no problem on the ground. Let me inform this House---
Order! Your task now is to seek clarifications. It was the Chairman’s job to inform.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to seek clarification because the response given by the Chairman was not adequate. This is so, because it does not reflect the position on the ground. Last year, the leadership of Isiolo went to carry out a fundraising for this particular school because its situation is pathetic. Up to now, the situation has not yet improved. The Chairman says the school was closed because of insecurity. That is not the true position. Garbatulla was the only school that was closed. The other schools were going on with studies. Why was Garbatulla the only school closed? Secondly, the community has raised an issue about the Board of Governors (BOG). It is important to listen and involve communities when it comes to management of schools and even the alumni who have offered to support the school. The alumni are holding Kshs8 million that they want to pump into the school. In the current situation, they cannot pump that money. The Ministry has failed to indicate why experienced and qualified local teachers were not posted there. The leadership of that county sat with the Teachers Service Commission (TSC) and the Ministry of Education, Science and Technology officials and decided to remove the headmaster whom the Chairman claims was improving the situation of the school. If you look at the response, you will see that there has been a drop from 3.26 points to 2.8 points. Will that situation improve with the current principal? That is not the position. He also said that the current principal was a headmaster. I was informed by the Chairperson that the current Director of Education was sent to go and give a report. This is one of the managers who are running down the school. I request the Government to send independent auditors and investigators so that they come up with a proper report which should be tabled in this House. Secondly--- The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
You can direct the second point to the Chairman. Your time is up. You have taken more time than the Chairman.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, Garbatulla has been one of the top schools in the region. It is one of the schools that have---
Order, Senators! For guidance, we have said that if you want to make a request, you do so during Statement Time. If you want to make an intervention, you will do it when it is time for interventions.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, this school has continued to experience decline in academic standards. I want to know what the Ministry or the Cabinet Secretary has done to integrate the concerns of the leadership of Garbatulla. Secondly, why is it that there has not been adequate teaching staff causing the school to decline in terms of performance?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to seek a clarification. The only national school in upper eastern has gone down completely. Why has the Government taken very long to address the issue? They have been declining even in national examinations. Why is it taking long to revive that kind of a school?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, part of the reasons this school is failing and collapsing is because of posting non-locals who feel that the area is insecure and remote. Most of the time, these people are not even there. I would like the Chairman to clarify why a proposal done by leaders to the TSC to replace the current Director with Mr. Abdi Kosai Mulu as a Principal who is qualified and currently the head of Olonyiro Division in Isiolo County was denied.
Thank you for those interventions. Number one, as far as the BOG is concerned, the Government does not consult the locals when it comes to appointments. There is a panel of selectors which comprises of different panelists and not the locals. However, if the locals feel that there is a problem, they have a representative through the Chief and the DEO who should provide leadership in terms of what they would like to have in the Board. The second one is about the teacher. The teacher who is posted there as it has been stated, is on contract. The contract is three years. If the contract expires or someone else is deemed fit by the TSC which appoints, then the TSC will replace him. However, so far, the TSC has found it fit to continue having the one who is there until his time elapses.
Order, Mr. Chairman! You need to take your fellow Senators seriously. You have four Senators who have made interventions on this matter. They have raised all manner of issues. You have said that if they made the interventions, the TSC would have considered. However, they have told you that the interventions were made and the TSC did not consider. At the very minimum, just say that you have heard their requests although they are new issues to you and then to follow up the matter with the TSC, especially on the circumstance of Garbatula High school. We, as a House, are fortunate because you have been a principal and you know these things better.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will follow it up with the TSC to make sure that the proper head is posted. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, in addition to what you have said, did you hear Mr. Chairman say that the contract is there and that the principal will stay which means, wapende wasipende? Is that the manner in which the Government is ruling this country?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, there is a lot about Garbatula and the school is known to have so many problems. One of them is headship which has been wanting for a very long time. We are scouting for a person to head that school. If the hon. Senators have anybody in mind who can head that school, they can bring the names forth through the TSC. I have no problem.
Order, Mr. Chairman! That matter is concluded. He will follow up with the appointing authority. I will not allow names to be mentioned on the Floor of this House for us to be an interviewing panel. That is not our business. We have sufficiently made it clear and you have admitted that the problem of the school is leadership. There is a structure through which that leadership is sourced and obtained and it will be used. Let us go to item (c) on the Order Paper. I do not see the Chairman concerned with that item. For the sake of time let us proceed until he is available. The Chairman of the Committee on Lands and Natural Resources, respond to item (d).
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg your indulgence. This was a continuation and clarification of the same Statement ---
Order, Mr. Chairman! The Members made presentations to my office and that is why I am saying that you just leave that one since we have other business to do. LIFTING OF MORATORIUM ON TIMBER HARVESTING BY THE CS FOR ENVIRONMENT, WATER AND NATURAL RESOURCES
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Let me go to item (d). At the sitting of the Senate on 12thFebruary, 2015, Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. requested for a Ministerial Statement on the lifting of a moratorium on timber harvesting as stated in a press statement on the Daily Nation newspaper of 9th February, 2015. The Senator requested the Chairman to:- 1. State whether there exists regulations in the Forests Act on harvesting of mature plantation or thinning of forests. 2. State whether the Felling Plan of 2012/2017 was approved by the Cabinet. 3. State whether the county governments and National Water Towers Agency were consulted on the Felling Plan and whether they approved the same. 4. Explain whether the environmental impact assessment was carried out and whether the National Environmental and Management Authority (NEMA) The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Order, Mr. Chairman! Just highlight the critical ones.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, as to whether the Government will allow logging of trees at the same rate, yes, the Government will allow logging as long as it is sustainable. People must plant trees before they log. On whether the Government will adopt sultanate theory to cut one and plant three trees, the policy of Government is even to do better than that. With regard to Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale’s question whether the Government is aware that the people who were removed from the Mau Forest have gone back. I would like to inform him that they have not gone back. We are aware that there are other encroachments, but not from the same people. The question by Sen. (Dr.) Machage to confirm whether the people who were paid Kshs400,000 each have gone back. The answer is the same; those people have not gone back. In fact, they have been resettled elsewhere.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am extremely disappointed by the response by the Ministry, particularly on consultation. In fact, by the time I requested for the Statement, the Nandi Governor had objected to the lifting of the moratorium. I want a clarification from the Cabinet Secretary (CS) as to when he consulted the county governments and if he could provide this Senate with records of those consultations. Under Article 72 of the Constitution, Parliament is required to make legislation on the management of the environment under Articles 69 and 70. Therefore, the regulation cited by the CS is to a large extent unconstitutional. Is the Cabinet Secretary aware that the forests that are referred to in the moratorium fall under Article 62 of the Constitution which is public land? Those forests are held by the national Government in trust for Kenyans and are supposed to be managed by the National Land Commission (NLC). Is the Cabinet Secretary aware that the purported approval of felling of trees in the national forests by the KFS is unconstitutional? The felling plan 2012/2013 purports that in the answer that Environmental Impact Assessment (EIA) reports are too expensive and, therefore, the Cabinet is suggesting that they would fell the trees and then look for an EIA. Is the CS aware that under the law, the felling of trees is supposed to be done after the EIA report has been done? I would like the CS to provide this Senate with evidence that the consultations with Kenya Water Towers Agency and the county governments has been done and why the CS thinks that it The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Whereas I completely support what Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. says, I am a bit at a loss because he is wants to know what the CS is thinking and whether he is aware. How is the Chairman supposed to know what the CS is thinking? I am under the impression that the question is to the Chairman and, therefore, it is actually the question of what the Chairman is thinking rather than what the CS is thinking. The CS is not here.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker Sir. I am seeking a further clarification because the first clarification had been sought. Because of the weighty issues being raised by Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr., and since there are other weighty issues that need clarity, maybe the Committee could consider inviting the CS so that they can interrogate her, one on one, so that we do not keep on seeking further clarifications.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, arising from what the Chairman said about the settlement of IDPs, I would like him to clarify the following. He spoke of some people not having gone back. People are measured in terms of numbers. There are specific places where they were settled as IDPs. If you say that they have not gone back, how many are these people and from where? Related to the same, there were IDPs from Nyanza, particularly Kisumu, Nyamira and Kisii counties. Their numbers were known. The provincial administration had their names and they were to be given some money as compensation like other IDPs. However, to this very day, they have not been given money as compensation. I do not know whether you are lumping them amongst the “some people”. I would like to know specifically whether “some people” includes IDPs from those counties and what you are doing about them regarding compensating them and resettling them. When we were in the other House---
(Hon. Ethuro); Order, Senator!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is very important. When we were in the other House, the Deputy President was very vocal about the resettlement of IDPs. It is now two and half years since the Jubilee Coalition Government took power and they have not done anything. How comes he is no longer vocal about IDPs?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, you heard the Chairman tell us, and you could see from his demeanor that he did not even appear to believe in what he was saying; that our forest cover is 6.9 per cent. This is a big joke. The forest cover in Kenya has never been 2 per cent in the last more than 20 years because of the destruction of forests. Could he tell us where these forests are, what acreage they are and how he has arrived at a percentage of 6.9 out of our 583,000 square kilometres land mass in this country? That means that our forest cover is 40,000 square kilometres which translates into 40 million acres. Where is this forest? Could he show us the Kenyan map and plot everywhere where we have the forests that amount to this acreage?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, you heard the Chairman tell me that the people I complained that are now resettling back into the Mau Forest, are not the same ones who were evicted. I would like the following clarification; first, is it, therefore, acceptable that new people should come to resettle? The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I would the Chairman to tell the House what the KFS is doing as regards the fires in the forests. In the last seven days, fire has been raging in the Mau Forest and Siongiroi Forest in Bomet County.
Order, Senator! It is a clarification. In your own admission, you said; “in the last few days.”
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am aware that it is the reduction of the forest cover by the trees and logging is one of those ways that trees are lost. Fire is also one of the ways in which trees are lost. So, I am asking the Chairman to clarify how we could preserve the forests by controlling the fires that are raging in the forests, especially in the Mau Forest.
The Chairman may respond, but as he does so, I want to agree with Sen. Kagwe and Sen. Hassan. Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. should not be referring to the Chairman as the CS because he is not. He must refer to him as “Chairman.” Secondly, the Chairman is at liberty to get information from all manner of sources, including the CS. So, he cannot also confine him to the CS. I am sure that what Sen. Hassan has suggested has been a fairly good practice when things are a little bit tough. That is still available to you, Chairman. Proceed now for the specifics.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Before I proceed, I seek your indulgence. I am very disturbed that an hon. Member can stand and say: “Reading from my misdemeanor” I take it that the Member has some inherent hatred of my personality and not only for today. I will need your protection because the personal grudge being brought under the table in terms of misdemeanor---
Order, Mr. Chairman! I am sure Sen. Wetangula has heard you. He wants to explain that, that was not the case.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I mean misdemeanor.
It is “demeanor” not “misdemeanor”.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I made no allusion to misdemeanor. The demeanor of the distinguished Senator for Embu, whom I have tremendous respect for and liking---For your information, we were at the university at the same time. He lived in Room 137, while I was in room 138 in Hall 10. He has been my friend ever since. I simply said that looking at his body language as he spoke, he did not even appear to believe in what he was saying. That was my impression. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, Sen. Wetangula has repeated that he does not think that he believes that I know what I do. In that case, I have no reason to answer him.
Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. wanted to know the details of when the CS consulted with the county government. We did not find it necessary to annex the details of the consultations, but I will get them because they must be factual. On the issue of constitutionality, Article 62 of the Constitution correctly provides for forests to be administered by the NLC on behalf of the national Government. The administration referred to here is not the management of forests; but the management of land. I know that I am right when I say that the NLC may not have the knowledge and the resources to do all that pertains to forestry. If you read Article 62, it not only talks of forestry, but of minerals, oil, wildlife, forestry, water and so many other resources. I do not believe that the NLC will have the management and environmental impact assessments for all those sectors as a land commission. However, in case the Senator may wish to engage more on this matter, the Chairman is ready to look further into that constitutional issue. I can confirm here that we have not had problems dealing with Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr., the same way I am being told about my “misdemeanor” by another Member.
Order, Chairman! You are the one referring to yourself as “misdemeanor”. That is not what Sen. Wetangula said.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the key word here was “misdemeanor.”
Order, Chairman! Let me clarify that that key word was not there.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, let me answer the rest of the questions. I explained in this document that you cannot carry out the Environmental Impact Assessments (EIAs) of all the forests which I read in the schedule which is already with Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. This means, if the EIAs are to be done, they will need time. I have explained which forests EIAs have already been done for. The EIAs conform with the felling plan which has been addressed by all forest agencies. So, it is actually a correct plan. If it needs to be changed, it is not a static plan. According to the Forests Act, it is supposed to be done every two years. The Statement which was sought by Sen. (Prof.) Anyang’-Nyong’o, did not include the IDPs from other counties other than Mau Forest. So, my answer was restricted to IDPs from Mau Forest. However, in case he would like to add a supplementary Statement on this matter, I will be more than ready to give the answers on these other IDPs who are in his county. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
What is it, Sen. (Prof.) Anyang’-Nyong’o?
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Is the hon. Chair in order to assume that in the Mau Forest, there were no IDPs from those three counties? Mau Forest is in Kenya. These IDPs are from Kenya and these three counties are in Kenya. So, why make the assumption these people were not IDPs from Mau Forest?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have now understood him clearly. At first, I thought he meant IDPs from other areas of Kenya. However, I now understand he means IDPs who were actually in Mau Forest. In this particular case, the compensation did not go only to IDPs from a certain tribe. All IDPs who were found in Mau Forest were all classified as IDPs and were treated in the same manner. Regarding the issue raised by Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, as to whether it is acceptable for people to be told to go back simply because it is Jubilee Government, I would like to state here clearly that since the Senator mentioned the Deputy President and the issue of how he was keen on the resettlement of IDPs, I am very sure our Deputy President has been talking about how to finalize the resettlement of IDPs. This is in the public domain and not something from my mind.
Hon. Members, we have taken so much time on this Statement.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The Chairperson of the Committee on Land and Natural Resources, in his response, made an interpretation of what Sen. Wetangula might have said about him. He said that for that reason he shall not respond to Sen. Wetangula’s question. That might be in contravention of the Standing Orders. Will that constitute a misdemeanor; not to answer a fellow Senator’s question?
Hon. Senators, on the altercation over the word “misdemeanor” and “demeanor,” since you have the answer I will look at it. I am equally persuaded along your thoughts, but for the benefit of doubt and since the Chair has insisted, let us look at it properly. In any case, it is not for the Chair to refuse to answer a particular question. If you felt Sen. Wetangula did not address you properly, you know what to do. Demand for an apology that he swallows his words and we proceed. If you continue, you offend me and I offend you then we have no business.
I do not share that view. Let me look at the HANSARD and give my considered opinion tomorrow.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Chairman has not made a commitment as to when he will give the confirmation of the consultations between the CS and the county governments on the purported felling plan. I am also concerned that the Chairman purported to interpret the Constitution in terms of capacity of the NLC. I would suggest, because he does not have, in my own view, the capacity to say that the NLC does not have capacity as stated in the Constitution, to cause for the CS to come to the Senate so that we can interrogate him or her. The Constitution says that forests are supposed to be held in trust by the national The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, in the interest of time, as you look at the meaning of the word “misdemeanor”, I request that you also look at Article 62 of the Constitution based on what I submitted in this House. The items which are listed from (f) to (m) are supposed to be administered by the NLC. That includes so many items in Kenya, for example, Government forests, all minerals, all roads, all rivers and lakes, territorial seas, exclusive economic zones, continental shelf, land between high and low water marks and so on. We need to get that advisory from the Chair.
Order, Senators! Let the Chairman conclude.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am requesting that because Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. is contesting that the jurisdiction of the NLC does not include administering all roads, waters---
They are listed in Article 62. My answer is that Article 62(3) means that the NLC is meant to administer all the lands, but not the forests.
Mr. Chairman, let us conclude this matter. I will take your invitation to look at it alongside the HANSARD. Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. also made some proposals to you. A matter of this nature seems to have a lot of interest. You may wish to invite the CS so that we can have a Kamukunji. Forest cover in this country is so crucial to sustainable development. Therefore, we cannot afford to have different figures. I was actually ruling, I do not need your assistance.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am obliged. I have no problem calling the CS. We have called them even last week. We have no problem as a Committee summoning the CS and even inviting all Members of the Senate.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Hon. Senators, we will come to a close of this business, except for one Statement.
Sen. (Eng.) Muriuki, if you see me ignoring others, you should understand that I am not aware of yours. You need to approach me then I will grant you a chance. In the House, a word “ambush” is a foreign terminology. Approach the Chair, then I will see how to assist you. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Hon. Senators, there will be a Kamukunji tomorrow. I wish to remind you that there have been numerous requests for statements concerning the status of education in the country. On the 12th March, 2015, I directed that the Cabinet Secretary for Education, Science and Technology be invited by the Standing Committee on Education to appear and address the Senate on the general status of education in Kenya. Hon. Senators, this consultative meeting has, therefore, been confirmed for tomorrow, Wednesday, 18th March, 2015, at 11.00 a.m. in this Chamber. Kindly, plan to attend to deliberate on the important matters. VISITING DELEGATION OF SPEAKERS, MCAS AND STAFF FROM VARIOUS COUNTY ASSEMBLIES Hon. Members, I am pleased to acknowledge the presence and to welcome to the Senate this afternoon, a delegation of Speakers, Members of County Assemblies (MCAs) and staff from various County Assemblies who are seated at the Speaker’s Gallery. I request the Speakers, MCAs and staff to stand when I call out their names so that they may be acknowledged in our usual tradition of the Senate. 1. Hon. (Dr.) Nuh Nassir Abdi - Speaker, Tana River County Assembly/Chairman of County Assemblies Forum; 2. Hon. Bishar Omar - Wajir County Assembly; 3. Hon. D.C. Chitwah - Vihiga County Assembly; 4. Hon. Ndegwa Wahome - Nyandarua County Assembly; 5. Hon. Joash Nyamoko- Speaker, Nyamira County Assembly; 6. Hon. Nduati Kariuki - Murangá County Assembly; 7. Hon. M. Hashim - Lamu County Assembly; The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise under Standing Order No. 33 to seek an adjournment of the House to discuss the terrorist threat, attacks and the security situation generally in Mandera County, on grounds that it is a matter of urgent national importance affecting the security and integrity of this nation.
The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Order, Senators! You have the requisite numbers. The Motion will be at 5.30 p.m.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, in view of the interest, I request that we start the Motion at 5.00 p.m. because there are many Members who will want to contribute to this very important matter.
Order, hon. Senators! We are also doing a countdown to the recess. As the Rules and Business Committee (RBC), we took a decision that we must try to process as much Business as possible, this week and the next week. Therefore, 5.30 p.m. to 6.30 p.m. is good time. In fact, because of the given interest, I am sure Members will faithfully and loyally be waiting for that opportunity. Proceed, Chairman.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I plead that on the issue of Mandera, particularly since the loss of lives has been constant and persistent---. We have a situation where teachers who were assigned to teach in that county have, for very good reasons, refused to go back. They are now justified because if a whole Governor can be attacked in an ambush, how can an ordinary teacher survive in that county? So, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I plead with you that one hour will not be sufficient to deal with this problem and for the Senate to be fully heard on this matter. Above everything else, if our people and our borders are not secure, we have no business sitting here. We better take up arms and help everybody else guard our borders. Therefore, I plead that we either start at 5.00 p.m. or extend the time up to 7.00 p.m.
Order, Senators! I am convinced. You know how to extend your time. Thirty minutes to 6.30 p.m., you will bring a Motion to extend your time to whatever time you wish. However, the Motion will begin at 5.30 p.m. Proceed, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, with regards to Statement (g), on the county assemblies operations and the additional requests to this statement by the Senator for Mombasa County, there was also a letter from your Office that asked us to look at this issue in detail because of the concerns from the counties. We also had a sitting with officials of the County Assemblies Forum who also expressed concern on this matter and came to meet with our Committee on the same. We, therefore, decided to handle this matter a bit more thoroughly because of the interest and impact. So, we decided to handle it as a Committee. We had a meeting with all the relevant institutions that were looking at the ceiling. Our Committee has decided to do a comprehensive report, which I seek the indulgence of the House that we table it in the House on Thursday. We will be addressing three issues: first, on the ceilings for the current financial year and the budget ceilings process for the coming financial year. We are also looking at The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, part of the justification by the Senator for Mandera, the Chairperson of the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget, is persuasive. But I sought my Statement as a matter of urgency because the threat that county assemblies will ground to a halt is real. Today we have almost all the county assemblies’ speakers here and I can tell you that in addition to sitting in this House, they are, probably, trying to negotiate how to best see that their county assemblies continue to operate. The Chairperson has said that he wants, in a preliminary sense, a report to be given to them in a month’s time. The issue is that there is a ceiling that is being enforced, which is an illegality, because it was not a resolution of this House. So, what we are doing is to aid and abet an illegality. That is why my question came in; to try and address that illegality, so that county assemblies are not threatened by the potentiality of closure or grounding. So, a report is, probably, a better way of presenting this because it has recommendations. But in the interim, when the Chairperson walks out after his Motion for Adjournment, could he write a letter to inform the Controller of Budget and the Commission on Revenue Allocation that, that ceiling is illegal? They should start to effect what has been approved in the appropriation acts of the county assemblies, as legally binding documents until that time when one month lapses, then we can do certain evaluations. Otherwise, we will ground these county assemblies to a halt.
The one month that the Chairman was talking about was about the direct crediting to the accounts and not on the ceilings.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the operationalization of the Public Finance Management Act, as it is now, is a big problem and an impediment to the running of the county assemblies. There is, indeed, a stalemate in nearly all the counties between the Speakers and the Governors on what I would call “sibling” rivalry on financial management. Indeed, in my own county – Migori – there is a big problem now and it could land in this Senate for arbitration. Would I be in order to request that the Chairman organizes a mandatory retreat of the Governors and Speakers of all the 47 counties to arbitrate on this, so that we do not have a total failure in the management of the county assemblies of this country?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, whereas I appreciate the statement from the Chairman, he did not, in his demeanor, show me a person who understood the urgency of the time. This is because the county assemblies are not just in crisis, but have been in crisis for over two months. The explanation being given is an implementation of an The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Point made! Each Senator will have about one minute to make their intervention.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, what I wanted to say has, in a way, been overtaken by what Sen. Murkomen has said. But essentially if you go by the Statement on the Order Paper, the budget ceilings are actually said to be imposed by the CRA. I would like the Chairman to address this issue and state categorically who should be imposing ceilings on the spending by assemblies.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is fair that as Senators, we speak from a point of information. The question of ceilings and budgets has been addressed by the courts. The courts found that the ceilings are actually legal. So, we cannot say what my brother said; that we, as the Senate, are abetting an illegality. It is an incorrect---
Why do you not let me finish?
Order, Senators! Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. shall be heard.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The court has made a finding on the legality of ceilings and the Speakers’ forum which filed this matter in court has not appealed that decision. As far as I am concerned, we cannot say that the Senate is abetting an illegality. Secondly, while people are complaining here, the Members of the County Assembly (MCAs) of Makueni have not received salaries for a period of four months. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order!
Order, Senator! Everyone is on point of order!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, there are two issues.
Order, Senators! Sen. Murungi has the Floor.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, as I was saying, there are two issues, the first one is on the ceilings. You recall sometime last year, they circulated leaflets on the Floor of the Senate purporting to set some ceilings to the county assemblies—
Order, Senator! Nobody circulates leaflets on the Floor.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, they were and we rejected them on the basis that the Standing Orders of the Senate do not allow the Senate to be approached through leaflets. The next thing we heard was that there were, indeed, ceilings being imposed. The question is: when did those leaflets become law that they were to be obeyed by the county assemblies? This is a fundamental procedure flaw that must be addressed through our Committee, chaired by the great Senator for Mandera. We need a proper report on the legality of those ceilings through our own processes. It is incumbent upon you to arrange for our Committee to make a proper study of all the issues surrounding these ceilings and bring a report to this House, for us to debate and finally make a decision as Parliament.
Hon. Senator, your time is up!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the second issue was the issue of the financial independence of the county assemblies. The county assemblies cannot properly exercise their oversight mandate over the county executive if they are queuing to be paid their salaries and other allowances by the same executive. Time has come for us to even amend the law so that we create financial independence for the county assemblies.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, Article 96(1) of the Constitution states that:- “The Senate represents the counties, and serves to protect the interests of the counties and their governments.” The county governments have two arms, the executive and the assembly. If we have to discharge this mandate, we should avoid any situation where we fall into a trap and be part of the connivance to capture county assemblies by the executive because he who pays the piper calls the tune. The county assemblies are the primary institutions of The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Order, Senators! The interest is so much and you are trying to get more time for that Motion of adjournment.
On a Point of order, Mr.Speaker,Sir.
What is it, Sen. Khaniri?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am afraid that we could be breaching our Standing Order No.88, which is anticipation of debate. This matter was raised by the Senator for Makueni, the Chairman has been very eloquent that they have taken it seriously and they are coming with a report and recommendations. Therefore, the matter will be debated here, Members are delving into the same issues that we expect the Chairman to report on with recommendations. That is what the Members are discussing before the matter is tabled. Are we not breaching Standing Order No.88, whereby Members are now anticipating debate?
Order, Members! To some extent, Sen. Khaniri is right. Mark my words, “to some extent”. To another extent, there is an issue before the Floor where the Chair of the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget was giving an update. To that extent, Members are contributing to that particular update.
Hoja ya nidhamu, Bw. Spika!
Hoja yako ya nidhamu ni gani? Isiwe hoja yakunitisha. Endelea Seneta.
Bw. Spika, nakushukuru kwa kunipa wakati huu wa hoja ya nidhamu. Alichoomba Sen.Hassan ni taarifa, na jibu lililotoka kwa mwenyekiti ni kwamba, atatoa taarifa siku ya Alhamisi, lakini hakusema ni Alhamisi gani. Amesema tu Alhamisi lakini hatujui ni mwaka ujao au mwezi ujao. Alhamisi ni nyingi. Hakutupa tarehe maalum. Ni Alhamisi ya wiki hii, ya mwezi ujao au ya mwaka ujao ? Hilo ndilo swali.
The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Sen. Boy Juma Boy, lakini wewe mwenyewe ungetueleza; kwa maoni yako, ni Alhamisi gani?
Bw. Spika, sijui.
Mr.Speaker, Sir, my point of order is, first, to thank the Chairman for seeking the indulgence, but it is not by accident that these distinguished Speakers are here today. They are here because their services have been ground to a halt. The assemblies cannot perform the tasks that have been given to them by the Constitution. The House is asking that the Chair goes quickly not “ile Alhamisi ambayo haijulikani ” and bring a Statement here. We want county assemblies to function because it appears to me at least that there are efforts to stifle the activities of county assemblies by the executive. We would like funds to be released quickly so that they can perform their functions and oversight the executive in counties. This is so vital. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I want to join Sen. Murungi and the Senate Minority Leader and say two things. One, there was an attempt to make recommendations to this House on this matter. However, it was done clandestinely because it came through leaflets, or pamphlets or some fliers which were distributed in a Kamukunji . The issues of procedure were raised, but they were withdrawn. Then all of a sudden, those fliers and pamphlets ended up becoming law. So, this matter is so grave that without the involvement of the Senate, there is no way you can talk about ceilings or capping revenue or allocations for county assemblies. Secondly, Mr. Speaker, Sir, the gentlemen – I do not know whether there is a lady; I know there are several – but the ladies and gentlemen that you see in the Speaker’s Gallery have been reduced to beggars and people who have to go kneel before the county executive so that they can do their oversight. Let me just give one example - as I conclude making my remarks - of Tharaka-Nithi, which I represent. When you remove the overheads like salaries, they are left with Kshs20 million to do oversight and committee work. How on earth can a county assembly having 10 or more committees exercise oversight over a Governor using Kshs20 million? Mr. Speaker, Sir, this matter is so grave and I want to join those who have said that we do not want to be given some “Thursdays” which is unknown---
(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): We want to be told exactly when the Statement will come before this House. We may, as well, want to interrogate the High Court decision that was given because I do not believe that those ceilings were lawful. Finally, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I hope that the ladies and gentlemen in the Speaker’s Gallery will stop going to court on these matters. This is because if they never went there, we would not have wasted a year. Their going to court prevented us from handling those matters earlier than now. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Sen. Orengo, I do not see your name here; you know what needs to be done.
He is analogue!
When you revert to analogue, you should express that fact!
No, Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is now on. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I agree with what the Senate Minority Leader and the Senate Majority Leader have said. However, I want to come out with a very critical constitutional principle that is lost in all this debate. Sometimes we are of the view that county governments are really the Governors and the executive wings. If you look at the wording of the Constitution in Article 176(1), you will realize the seriousness of this matter. It says:- “There shall be a county government for each county, consisting of a county assembly and a county executive.” Mr. Speaker, Sir, in the hierarchy of things, as it were, under this Constitution, the superior body is the county assembly rather than the county executive.
So, when you make those assemblies not to function, the fundamental principal established in the Constitution of having democratic institutions elected by the people and for the people; once they are not operating, then it means that you are killing democratic institutions that we have established, not only at the national level, but even at the county level. Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is a grave constitutional issue and it should be handled as such. As we are waiting for this Statement on Thursday, I would rather the Chairperson of the relevant Committee – whichever Thursday he comes with this Statement; but at the earliest possible time, state these constitutional principles; the ceilings, irrespective of the orders which have been made by the court and which we have not interrogated. The spirit of the Constitution is that matters relating to revenue in so far as counties are concerned, the Senate is the one which plays the crucial role vis-a-vis the CRA and that should be understood. Mr. Speaker, Sir, what am I saying? I am trying to say that any one day the county assemblies are not getting these funds, we are killing devolution. This matter should be handled as such and the Chairperson should be brave enough because we are the The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Order, Sen. Orengo! In appreciating Sen. Boy Juma Boy, you have also mixed the languages. Let me take the last three Senators; we will have Sen. Madzayo, Sen. (Prof.) Anyang’-Nyong’o and Sen. Elachi. Sen. Sang, are you still interested?
Yes, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Finally, we will have Sen. Sang and Sen. (Eng.) Muriuki. Hon. Members, please, do so very briefly.
Asante sana, Bw. Spika, kwa kunipa nafasi hii. Kiungo cha muhimu sana katika serikali zetu za ugatuzi ni Bunge kule mashinani. Ni muhimu kusiwe na mapingano au mipaka katika utumiaji wa zile pesa kati ya Bunge zetu za ugatuzi. Nikisema hivi, natilia maanani ya kwamba hivi sasa tunavyozungumza, Kaunti ya Kilifi haiwezi kuwalipa wafanyakazi wake. Ni ukweli kabisa kwamba kuna shida huko mashinani. Kwa hivyo, ni muhimu Mwenyekiti wa Kamati ya Fedha, Biashara na Bajeti alete jibu kuhusu jambo hili Alhamisi hii inayokuja. Ni muhimu tupate jawabu maalum kesho ama kesho kutwa. Asante, Bw. Spika.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, mine is a piece of information, but in line what Sen. Orengo just said. I am sure my Chairman picked this up. There seems to be a contradiction between provisions in the Public Finance Management (PFM) Act and a section of the Constitution that Sen. Orengo just read out. In the PFM Act, it was provided that there will be only one treasury at the county level. That Act is usually cited by the authorities and it is the one that guides them to take the money of the assemblies to the treasury of the county, which is controlled by the Executive. Mr. Speaker, Sir, would it be possible, before my Chairman presents this Statement, to make a solid recommendation of the unconstitutionality of the provisions of the PFM Act regarding the management of county finances, where the two arms of government in the county – the county assembly and the county executive – makes the assembly subordinate to the executive in financial management and, hence, contradict that section of the Constitution that Sen. Orengo has just referred to?
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. When the proposal of the ceilings came into this House, it was meant to assist the executive and the county assembly. But I think what went wrong beyond that is that the CRA and the Controller of Budget have now continued to put the ceilings on one arm of government and to leave the executive. But then, also, it is three months to June and I think what we need to ask ourselves as the House is how do we assist the county assemblies from now to June, because they are in crisis? It will be important for the Chairperson to have a Kamukunji of all Senators, the CRA, the Controller of Budget and let each Senator know, for example, according to The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the reason some of us are very concerned is because you will remember that when we had discussions on the County Allocation of Revenue Bill, the Chairman, on behalf of the Committee, moved the Bill containing provisions that suggested that ceilings proposed by the CRA were to be final. I remember that Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, myself and others proposed amendments that sailed through to say that CRA were only going to make recommendations to this House. This House would then sit down, consider the recommendations and make them final. As far as I am concerned, we never sat in this House - other than the leaflets that were mentioned by Sen. Murungi - to discuss budget ceilings. It is important, therefore, that the Chairperson, knowing that he had made that kind of a proposal in the County Allocation of Revenue Bill, it could be that he is still working with the mentality that, actually, that provision passed and that the proposed ceilings by CRA are final. It is important to know that we did not discuss that.
Order, Senator! You cannot impute improper motives on another Senator.
Okay, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I am just making an observation that it is important for the Chairperson to know that we amended that Section of the County Allocation of Revenue Bill and before they bring to this House those proposed ceilings, we would have no ceilings as at now. Mr. Speaker, Sir, as Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. mentioned, I have read the ruling by the court - the court said that ceilings are okay as long as they are approved by this Senate. We have not approved them and, therefore, there are no ceilings this year.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, any budget is a ceiling in itself; the items and sub-items in the budget are ceilings. So, there is no way we can run away from ceilings. If I got the Chairperson of the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget correctly, what he said is that the Committee has sat, considered the matter and the report will be tabled on Thursday. Other than confirming that the Thursday is this coming Thursday, I would go with the proposal that we wait for this report to come and then debate it. Even before we call the CRA or anybody else for the Kamukunji, we first of all take a position as the authority mandated to set ceilings; CRA’s role is to recommend. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Finally, proceed, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I want to thank the Members for their contribution on that matter. I will take only a couple of minutes to clarify two or three items which I think are important. The first is to understand what the ceiling is about and the context in which the ceilings were brought in. The second is the status for the current financial year and the third is what we expect in the report of the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget, when we submit it this coming Thursday, which is the day after tomorrow; not next year. Mr. Speaker, Sir, in the Budget Policy Statement (BPS) that was passed by this House - and I want the Senator for Meru County, who talked about those leaflets, to pay attention – the BPS talked about the amount of money that will be allocated to the counties; Kshs258 billion. It talked about how that figure is made up and it will appear in the Division of Revenue Bill when it comes to this House. Part of that Division of Revenue Bill allocation to the counties is an amount that is actually set aside for new administrative structures in the county, both in the executive and assembly side. Last year, that amount was Kshs30 billion. The question then is, out of that Kshs30 billion for the new administrative structures, how much should go to the assembly and how much should go to the executive? This year that amount is over Kshs40 billion. So, what happened is that CRA, under Article 216 of the Constitution, where they have the powers to, among other things; make recommendations on financial managements---
Yes, I am coming to that. Order, please!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, they thought it necessary to come up with a structured way of sharing out that Kshs30 billion between the assemblies and the executive. This House - not the other House - in its wisdom, last year made an amendment to the PFM Act that the recommendations that the CRA will make on ceilings, will come to this House from this coming financial year in June and this House, with or without amendments will adopt whatever recommendations will come from the CRA. So, in the coming financial year, things will be different; it will be approved by this House. However, last year, it was merely based on the recommendations made by CRA. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Hon. Members, It is 4.40 p.m. and we cannot exhaust everything. There is still Thursday, Sen. Hassan.
Proceed, Sen. Hassan, you have 30 seconds.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, is it then possible to do that, so that expeditious way we sometimes dispense of reports? We table it, then we debate and adopt it on Thursday. So that then the resolutions can be acted on urgently.
Order, Senator! You are completely out of order! That is not for the Chair to decide; direct it to where it should be directed.
Order! I am not inviting you now. That chapter is closed. Let us now have Sen. Wetangula. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have a request that will require a response and clarification from you. Over the weekend, there were screaming headlines about a statement attributed to the Speaker of the National Assembly. This statement purported to indicate that a letter conveying a warning to the Speaker of the Senate had been written by the Speaker of the National Assembly with regard to the provisions of Article 261(5) of the Constitution. The Speaker of the National Assembly seems to operate under an illusion that he can direct, warn, or intimate the Speaker of the Senate and the Senate at large. I have read the Constitution over and over again and found nowhere that it confers powers to the Speaker of the National Assembly to either warn or direct the Speaker of the Senate. Indeed, this is strange because I have not heard you convey any message from the National Assembly forwarding Bills that are within the provisions of Article 261(5) to this House for debate, passage or rejection. I, therefore, wonder how a warning is preceding the forwarding of the said Bills. In any event, Article 261(5) talks about “Parliament.” It does not talk about the “Senate. “ Parliament means the National Assembly and the Senate. Was the Speaker of the National Assembly warning you as a Speaker of the Senate or warning you and him because the Constitution talks about the two Houses? Mr. Speaker, Sir, finally, as the leader of our House, we want clear direction and we take exception to demeaning conduct and correspondence from a House that we consider lower to us in matters of legislation, especially when we have been battling up to the Supreme Court to demand that the Speaker of the National Assembly forwards Bills to this House. When he decides to forward them, he precedes with a warning. We will not take that as a kind gesture, conduct or behavior from an office that is equal to your office.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. When you will be making that communication and consideration with regard to what the Senate Minority Leader has said, I would like you to make this a bit clearer. I took one of the Bills that you communicated to us to be one of them. You will recall that you communicated to us about the Order of Precedence and Titles Bill (Senate Bill No.11 of 2014). I have since gone through the work that took place in the National Assembly regarding this. I also remembered that this House, in the year 2013, had a Bill here called the National Flags Emblems and Names (Amendment) Bill, of 2013. That Bill in the National Assembly is the exact replica of what we did here. That means that the Bill which I led this House through and was passed, was plagiarised. After that exercise, their Bill has now been brought here and yet they expect us to act on that Bill. Since they are worried that we may remember these things, you are being warned. I notice that in the Order Paper, this very Bill that was an Act of “intellectual theft” is now a case of a First Reading. Will you allow a Bill that has already been debated in this House under a different name to go through the First Reading before you hold some consultative meetings with the Speaker of the Lower House? The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. On a similar point, I also want you to broadly ventilate on the relationship between the two Houses. As I sat here to debate some of the issues as we were conducting business this afternoon, I have reliable information that the National Assembly was having a debate about us based on the headlines that were seen this Sunday. They called us all sorts of names and vitriol about our House not deserving to be an upper House. I suggest that you scrutinize the HANSARD of the National Assembly with regard to that discussion and give general direction with respect to the decorum of both Houses. Many times, you as a person, have gagged some of us in a good way whenever we tried to make reference to the National Assembly in a manner that was derogatory and in way that did not necessarily fulfill the aspirations of having cordial relationships between the two Houses of Parliament. I find it disturbing that any Speaker would sit in a House and allow a debate of such derogation regarding another House. This is particularly because the issues are broadcast on national media. These are the issues we have spoken about time and again. The two Houses should work in sync so that we deliver on the aspirations of the Kenyan people and to have the objective of Parliament achieved. I want you to have a look at that and make a broad response. An impression is being created that this House, despite the fact that it claims not to have work, is allegedly lazy and yet our committees have not faced allegations of doing vulgar things. To that extent, I am requesting that we move this process forward and seek better relationship with the other House. It is not true to say that this House has been lax in any particular way.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I also read the same headlines. I comforted myself and said that perhaps this was an issue of misinformation and that somebody had been misquoted. I cannot decipher a situation where a Speaker of any Parliament or even a county assembly has been quoted or attributed to such comments. I believe and hope that in your response this was a case of the media being misinformed. This is unfathomable. It cannot be imagined that anybody sitting in your position, whether as a Temporary Speaker or even in the National Assembly, one can give directions or orders to anybody. It is also envisaged that the Bill that came from the National Assembly can be rejected in this House. It could also go through mediation or it can collapse or have its deadline pass. Someone can also petition the courts. In the same provision of Article 261, the court can extend some time so that we talk about issues. All those provisions are there. There is no one who can dictate to another person to accept any law in whatever The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The threat that we read in the newspaper is an empty one and none of us should give it any legal relevance. However, let me read an advisory opinion in your name. I think, in your directions, may be this is one of the ways forward. Under paragraph 145, the Supreme Court, stated as follows:- “It is clear to us, from a broad purposive view of the Constitution, that the intent of the drafters, as regards the exercise of legislative powers, was that any disagreement as to the nature of a Bill should be harmoniously settled through mediation. An obligation is thus placed on the two Speakers, where they cannot agree between themselves, to engage the mediation mechanism. They would each be required to appoint an equal number of Members, who would deliberate upon the question, and file their report within a specified period of time. It is also possible for the two Chambers to establish a Standing Mediation Committee, to deliberate upon and to resolve any disputes regarding the path of legislation to be adopted for different subject-matters” I urge you to come up with names of persons who will represent this House in terms of the advisory given to you by the Supreme Court. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Sorry Senator, I missed that one. Which one?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Bill that you have sent to the Committee on Legal Affairs and Human Rights from the National Assembly has gone through all the stages that are required by law under Article 232 of the Constitution; Principles and Values of Public Officers. In your communication to us, we did not have that deadline. Therefore, we should not give the communication we saw in the press the sort of attention we are giving it today. This is because we are granting somebody somewhere some element of ego. We are boosting his ego so that he can threaten you or us. We might as well ignore him and tell him to do what he feels like.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, mine will be very brief and it is just information to the House. As Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. has said, I will make it broader; let us live with the fact that there is some kind of infantile disorder in that House which will be there for the life of this House. It is something that we have to put up with. However much we debate, it will not change that disorder.
Without debating the issue before you issue your communication, which will be going ahead of ourselves, let me say that when you go to some offices in Government especially where secretaries sit, you will see a sign on the boards which says: “Never argue with a fool, people will not know the difference.” I think that is a good warning to this House. Please, heed what Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. has said and do not engage in an argument which you cannot win.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Let me also add my voice to this matter. First, the issue of consultation that is provided for in the Constitution is abundantly clear. It is not consultation when the Speaker for the National Assembly says that the matter has already been minuted in some House Business Committee minutes. I do not expect the Speaker of this august House to have judicial notice of the minutes of the “Lower House.” The issue of threatening this House with dissolution because they fail to meet the timelines of some Bills, when, in fact, if there is any House that is due for dissolution on account of their conduct and failure to meet deadlines, it is known. I do not think that that is an issue and I think we must be firm and go through on the Supreme Court pursuit that we had taken on some of those Bills. Lastly – this is very important –given the concerns that Kenyans are expressing today about the quality of Bills, Motions, reports from the National Assembly and the need for quality control; because of the questions of integrity that have come up, this The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, whenever you leave your Chambers to come to this august Chamber, there is always a retinue and an announcement; “Mr. Speaker”. With the fact that I have been in this Parliament for decades, once I hear that call, I flee into the next room in the corridor to make sure that your retinue moves to the Chamber undisturbed. I am one of the few people you have sent away from this Chamber. When you said “Sen. Orengo, leave the Chamber”, I had no alternative but to leave. In some instances, normally, I am very hard headed. Even in a police station to be told to match out, they do it with a lot of difficulty. But when I receive your matching orders, I have no alternative. When somebody now gives you a directive and you obey that directive, the next time you order me to leave the House, I will not leave the House. I can assure you. Mr. Speaker, Sir, we should not try to bend any rules; whatever the circumstances. History will absolve you from whatever you may be blamed for, but never bend the rules. The Standing Orders, both of the Senate and the National Assembly, state very clearly what should happen to a Bill once it is published. That is not a matte which anybody can be lectured about. I would urge you, now more than ever before, and since you are the one who led us in the march to the Supreme Court and sat there and the Supreme Court gave an advisory opinion on what should happen when a Bill is published and what type of consultations and concurrence should be made, on this issue, you owe it to Kenya and to the future generations, that the law must be obeyed and particularly the Constitution. I agree with Sen. Billow because I went on a tour to France with the Committee on Implementation and they told us that when it comes to Bills which are complicated; with a lot of details that need proper scrutiny, even the Government of France would rather take that Bill to the Senate as a first reference point. Even if it goes to the National Assembly, they will make sure - even in circumstances it does not need to go there – they will make sure that it goes to the Senate. This is not for nothing. I would urge you as our leader in so far as this Parliament is concerned, that you stick there, you do not try to bend the rules and let nobody shake you because you are our Speaker. If anybody threatens you, that is a threat not only to you but to us, as Members of this Senate. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think together on this, there is no Jubilee or CORD; we will unite together to make sure that we perform our constitutional duties without fear or favour. I hope that in taking this stand, in those directives that are being given, in the long run, you will be guiding your brother in the National Assembly to follow the law. So, it is your duty as a senior Member of Parliament; in fact, when I look at the number of years you have been in this House, the leadership in the Senate is senior to the leadership in the National Assembly. We will turn to you, being the senior parliamentarian. Thank you.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I was equally shocked when I read that pronouncement from somebody who is responsible and who is trying to incite Kenyans. Hon. Senators should have realized that any time that House has problems and black smoke begins to come out, they always divert attention by shouting “Senate”. Who The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is important that we lead Kenyans as per the mandate we were given. To mislead Kenyans is an offence and that person must take responsibility. Thank you.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, indeed when I read the newspapers on Sunday, I was saddened because I knew very well that if there is one thing the Rules and Business Committee of the Senate does is to look at all Bills and to prioritize them accordingly. Plagiarism is a crime and I think one of the things that we should tell Members of the National Assembly, who we respect a lot is that, when you plagiarize, you take somebody’s intellect. When they put the same Bill on the Order Paper, I think it is time we asked the Speaker of the National Assembly to tell Kenyans why the Senate Bill has been hanging in that House for one year. They did not see the Senate run to the newspapers because the Standing Orders tell us how we can work together, how we can dialogue and how we can deal with issues. Due to the challenges they have been facing for one week - and they will face others because of their own undoing - they decided to dwell on a non-issue. As Senate, we need to publish the two Bills in the newspaper so that Kenyans can know the truth. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Senate can also do a communication. I do not think that we need Kshs1billion. It is time for the Constituencies Development Fund (CDF) to go to the county governments where it belongs. I do not see why we should fight over a referendum. Let all of us be legislators with no funds. After the by-election in Kajiado Central Constituency, I realized that one needs Senators if they want to win. If you were Members of the “Lower House”, you will lose all seats. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
I will allow Sen. Haji to have the last intervention by virtue of his seniority and neighborhood.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I have not read the letter that most of my colleagues are talking about. However, going by what I have heard, the Speaker of the National Assembly saying, there could be an officiated plan of misunderstanding between The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Hon. Members, this is a matter that I really did not want to talk about. I was equally surprised by what I saw in the media over the weekend. When I made a Communication on Thursday, it was with reference to various matters canvassed by the Senator for Kakamega County, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale. One of the issues that my brother, the Speaker of the National Assembly, picked was the Public Audit Bill 2014. I actually said that I was not going to say much except as a matter of fact, because facts are facts; that I was not consulted. I wanted to dismiss it with the contempt it deserves in terms of the newspaper reports because, to me, it was just trash. It was repeated on Monday again. From the front page of The Standard, it found its place on the back page of the Nation . Then I knew, there must be another design to deliberately bring some other conflict between the two Houses. You may wish to recall that, that was not a dialogue or correspondence. It was a monologue from a Speaker of one House. I have a conscience and I am very clear on the things that I say and do. I want to maintain that I was never consulted and I have a letter to confirm that. Secondly, the letter that I received on Friday evening was a good letter, which is supposed to be the source document by the journalists. So, my first instance was that, maybe, the Speaker of the National Assembly has been misquoted, because when you read the letter itself, it confirms that the National Assembly and its leadership in entirety, as Sen. Billow alluded, for some reasons, assume that we participate in their proceedings and their House and Business Committee deliberations. So, they attached minutes. They also confirmed that they presumed that since it is a matter affecting counties, according to the memoranda of objects, it would come to us. However, I have a different experience, even when they say that a matter does not affect counties, sometimes it comes because some amendments were made. Sometimes, there is no desire to bring the Bills here until we ask for them. So, I thought that the issue of concurrence on Article 110(3) is a matter that has been determined with finality. It should have been concluded by the end of the year 2014. There is no amount of provocation that will open that. That will remain. This House has in the past gone to the Supreme Court, we had a resolution that any other Bills before and subsequently – at that time we were at the count of 46 – will meet the same fate. This is a country of governance and with institutions. If one state organ does not appreciate it, there are other state organs that will enforce compliance. So, I am not worried. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I just want to congratulate you especially on the final note, about people searching their souls. In the same spirit, could we request you to walk an extra mile and forgive your brother for maybe he knows not what he has done?
Forgiveness is a virtue and it will always be given. However, the same good Bible, which I am sure that you subscribe to, says that there is no repentance without confession. You remember the last time the Senator for Makueni was trying to challenge me about confessions; I was very clear on those things. The words I had used could not amount to confession. I know confession is to repentance. I had nothing to repent What is it Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like you to consider standing down Order No.8
I think that matter has been canvassed ably. Until I get to know, formally, the fate of a Bill similar to this one, we are not proceeding; so that Order is stood down. Since the next Order was to come in the next ten minutes, there is a Motion of extension by Sen. Orengo, maybe we could use the ten minutes available.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, with your permission, I beg to move the following Motion in an amended form. THAT, notwithstanding the provisions of Standing Order No.30(2) and pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order No.33, the Senate resolves to extend its sitting time today, Tuesday, 17th March, 2015, to 7.00 p.m. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the reasons for this extension are obvious and I had alluded to them. So, I will not take any more time because it is important that Sen. Billow has his time for moving this Motion. I beg to move.
Who is seconding?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to second the Motion because it is very important. As a country, we are threatened by terrorists and many other criminals or gangs. I beg to second.
Hon. Members, we will proceed with the Motion of Adjournment.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, the House do now adjourn. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am moving this Motion because of a very important and urgent matter regarding insecurity in Mandera County. I am sure all of us are aware of the rising insecurity due to terrorist attacks in Mandera Town and on the road linking Mandera to Lafey Constituency on the border with Somalia. On Friday, 13th March, 2015 at around 10.00 a.m. in the morning, there was an attack on a convoy of the Governor for Mandera. A convoy of five vehicles was attacked in broad-daylight in which three people were killed, one vehicle burnt, one vehicle taken away and driven to Somalia by the terrorists and several people were injured. Then 24 hours later, in Mandera Town itself, on Sunday night, four people from upcountry were shot as they were from shopping; two of them died and two others were The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
It does not need secondment.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I thank the Senator for Mandera for his persistence in trying to protect life and property not only in Mandera but Kenya as a whole. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I am in the Committee on National Security and Foreign Affairs and we recently visited Mandera. We are told that the border in Mandera is closed, but while there, you will realize that it is closed to Kenyans who want to go to Somalia but it is open to the elements on the other side to come into Mandera. In fact, it is an activity that we saw when we went there. When you go to the border post you will see vehicles coming from the Kenyan side or even from the Somali side and people going on with questionable business. This is something that has to be dealt with by the Jubilee Government. This is because an attack on Mandera or Lamu is an attack on the entire territory of Kenya. We have only one country called Kenya. Just as my friend has pointed out, towns in north-eastern Nigeria are empty and in ruins. You will go into towns where there are no people, because they have been either evicted and their property burnt or they have elected on their own not to stay in those towns. If something is not done quickly and now, we will begin to see people leaving towns in Mandera, Wajir, Garissa and other towns in the northern part of Kenya. The only way you can make a Kenyan feel like a Kenyan is to secure his life and property. When you talk to the people in Mandera, you will get the feeling that they are not confident that they are being given the security that they need, like other people in Kenya. Unless exceptional measures are taken to ensure that the life and property of people are safe, insecurity will continue. Now we are becoming a bit of a laughing stock if the Al Shabaab could attack Lamu and film what they did. We are beginning to enter into a time when you may even believe that war is business by other means. Sen. Billow did not say it but in his first statement, he said that the connections of those who are promoting these activities exist at the highest level. When you hear the people in Mandera themselves talking about what is happening to them, then you are left with the sense that somebody somewhere is not doing his work. I was imagining that my friend The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I also want to send my condolences to the people of Mandera. One of the challenges that we face in our country today is that even orders from the President himself are not implemented. Some people are so comfortable in the positions that they were given by Kenyans to work that they do not care. I remember very well that in August last year, the President ordered the Chief of the Kenya Defence Forces to ensure that border between Mandera and Somali is clearly marked so that it can be protected. But the issue was taken to the technocrats in the Government and they have decided to keep quiet. We hear about the activities of the Boko Haram and ISIS and think that, that network will not come into our country. We are waiting for that network to enter through Mandera and move down before we start fighting. If, indeed, the Kenya Defence Forces are in Mandera, as the hon. Senator said, then what are they doing there? They have no business being in Mandera when there are still attacks there. It seems the issue is even beyond the Kenya Police. All the security forces must sit together and agree on how to deal with the insecurity. This is almost similar to what Nigeria is experiencing with the Boko Haram. The Government of Nigeria decided to ignore when the Boko Haram started. They thought that they were bandits, as we are saying about the situation in Mandera. The Boko Haram terrorist activities have now spread across West Africa. This can happen in Kenya. Today, I saw a clip of young people from Nyeri who have gone back to quarries in Mandera. They are trying to build their lives. Maybe sooner or later, they will be killed. Besides the Motions for Adjournment, how can the Senate ensure that the security agencies in this country address the issue of insecurity in Mandera in the next few months to come and ensure there is security for our people? How can we ensure the safety of the Governor, county government and Kenyans who are not from that region? They should be able to travel safely to and from Mandera. Right now, we seem to be ignoring the people of Mandera because they are just a few Kenyans. We have people in this Government who still have the attitude of 50 years ago. There are some offices in the Government where very little is done, especially the human resource development, audit and procurement teams. Some people have been in their positions for 30 years and do not care even when the President gives orders. The Government must change this system now and ensure that employees in the managerial cadre work under performance contracts. They should only be retained because of their performance. If they do not perform, they should leave service. We have some people The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, for this opportunity. I also join my fellow colleagues in passing my condolences to the people of Mandera County. I also appreciate this Motion of Adjournment by the Senator for Mandera. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, there is a maxim that I have read that madness is doing the same thing the same way and expecting different results. I remember when I was at the Kenya National Commission for Human Rights (KNCHR) matters of radicalization of young people were still nascent. I know that Sen. Dullo will recall that sometimes Aboud Rogo and Sheikh Makaburi would be arrested and would come to the KNCHR for legal assistance, because that was a place that was open to everybody. We realized that there was such an inbuilt belief or doctrine. Therefore, we set out on a mission to explore how best to deal with these evolving challenges and insecurity. People have decided to align their strategy with respect to the reality of terrorism and radicalization. It is only Kenya that assumes that it can do the same thing the same way and achieve different results. We have bravado in our political offices and in the house on the hill and yet Al-Shabaab ridicules us every day. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, Sen. Orengo alluded to a video that has been posted by Al-Shabaab, clearly demonstrating how the Mpeketoni attacks were executed and in that, they mocked the President a couple of times. We invite some of these problems ourselves. Today, western countries and other counties have decided not to support our quest to fight terror because of irresponsible political statements that have been made by our leaders. We have met representatives of some of these governments and we have asked them how come you have decided to alienate Kenya yet terrorism is a global phenomenon. They said that it is our own political leaders who say that this is not a crime of terrorism. Again, an Inspector-General, appointed hardly a few days ago, said that this is not a crime of terrorism. Therefore, when these countries are of the view if a local political network can have this capacity, then which citizenry of ours is safe? Therefore, it is about re-aligning our strategy and having a comprehensive strategy, being realistic and stop these theatrics and bravado which we exercise in Nairobi in our comfort zones. We must de-radicalize the young people and challenge the narrative of radicalization. We must challenge these ideologies and disengage our troops from Somalia and capacitate the Somali National Army. Countries like the United States of America (USA) have pulled out of war fronts so that they can make their borders safer. This is a country with a military of almost 60,000-70,000 of hardly sophisticated military, telling us that they can sustain an indefinite occupation of another country. We also have to reach out to constituencies that are important in terms of the war on terror. President Obama, on assuming office, reached out to the Muslim community and not just through rhetoric but through real action; through the respect of the Constitution. I was extremely keen on the outcome of a pre-dominantly Somali Muslims polling station in Kajiado because Muslim leaders from the Jubilee Coalition had gone severally to speak to them. In fact, leaders from the Coalition for Reforms and The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
The Senate Minority Leader, you have ten minutes by virtue of your position.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I want to thank Sen. Billow for bringing this Motion of Adjournment. I recall that this is not the first time he has brought this Motion. Mandera is bleeding and ailing. When I was a young lawyer in 1993, I went to Mandera to defend somebody falsely accused and the magistrate was a District Commissioner (DC).This man told the DC that “we in Mandera are not in Kenya, we are not Kenyans and we are not treated as such”. Being a young inexperienced lawyer, the DC ignored all my pleas and jailed the man with no evidence and later, he told me that “ hao watu ni pumbavu”. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the pain that Mandera is going through – the pain we saw in Lamu and Kapedo; the pain rotating around the Turkana/Pokot boundaries, Baringo and Mombasa; it has happened in Bungoma – leaves us with serious questions. Have we abdicated our responsibility to protect Kenyans? In a country where we have no visible military threat from any of our external neighbours, it makes little sense to continue pumping billions and billions of shillings into the hands of the army and giving less and less money and equipment to the police, who are responsible for internal and homeland security. Today, a policeman sits in Garissa, commanding the former North Eastern Province, including Mandera, and his tool of operation is a Land Rover yet we have the Deputy President and his team flying all over the country, donating millions of shillings – corruptly acquired – in harambees when people are dying like flies. This is the country where we are; why is the Commandant of Police in Mandera – leave along Garissa – not given a helicopter and equipment to defend the people of Mandera? Today, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, our army is a trading army; it is like the Nigerian Army. Boko Haram can go, dismember a battalion of Nigerian Army, kill them and walk away. But when they try to enter Cameroon, a platoon of 50 Cameroonian military wiped out the entire 200 Boko Haram invaders because Cameroon has an army and Nigeria has a trading army. These are people who are in the army to do business, to make money, to live comfortably and to do nothing; and that is what we have in Kenya. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
But now, we have people in offices who are just there; men in suits doing nothing!
Order, Senator! Your time is up.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I support the feelings and the situation of Mandera.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. As the Chairman of the Committee on National Security and Foreign Relations, I do not want to pre-empt the Report that we will lay before this House very soon. However, allow me to add my voice to the sentiments of this Motion. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. This matter is not confined to Mandera. I am happy that the Senator for Mandera found it wise to move this Motion for us to have an opportunity to say something about the security of our country. This is not a local war but an international one. I think those criminals, the Al-
, will be the happiest people tonight because they know we are talking about them and that we are shaken. That is all they want. They are not willing to take over this country and make it their colony; they want to infiltrate this country and sell their doctrine. The Muslim fundamentalists started this war many years ago. Even during the colonial days, these people slaughtered top civil servants in former Northern Province The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I wish to associate myself with the pain the County Government of Mandera is going through, especially the Governor and the Senator. Maj. (Rtd) Nkaissery and Mr. Boinett have been given jobs; so what? The issue is corruption in the armed forces; the military, the police and NIS. That is the reason lives are being lost in Mandera and other parts of the country. Corruption is leading to the destruction of a community called the Somali in this country. If people do not know, corruption is going to make sure that Somalis will be begging to call themselves Kenyans. Every Kenyan will be saying; hawa watu ndio wanatuuwa . Corruption is destroying the institution in Mandera called the government. So, far, there have been five attempts on Governor Roba’s life. How many more attempts does the Jubilee Government want to see on Roba before they realize that the guy is under threat? This is because the Governor is bringing organization in Mandera and, therefore, interfering with corruption networks. There are sugar barons in Mandera and Wajir. Trucks carrying sugar from Kismayu are arrested in the morning, paraded before a magistrate, the case is heard very quickly and the declaration is that the sugar be destroyed. After a few days, there is no burning of the sugar, it is allowed into the market and people are in business. This is corruption which is at play. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, it should not be lost on Senators that in Mandera we have NIS officers; what do they report? We have the Anti-Terrorist Police Unit in Mandera, what do they do? They simply look the other side as terrorists come in. Purely by happenstance, hon. Duale happens to come from the same community, if only a senior The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
He did not withdraw it the way he said it. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, he knows who they are because he wants to send elders to talk to them. We are not going to allow Kenyans, even if they are not from our communities, to be exposed to danger because of the utterances of reckless politicians.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I hate to interrupt my friend. By Hon. Duale saying that, it does not necessarily mean that he knows them. We are all talking about Al-Shabaab, but have we seen them ourselves? Nobody has seen them but everyone knows that they are there.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, because my time is running, the final point is that the highly ranked advisor of the President on matters of security, is the Chief of Kenya Defence Forces (KDF), Gen. Karangi. The question that I keep on asking myself is; this is a highly trained, experienced and patriotic Kenyan, what advice does he give the President? Why is he not telling the President that having succeeded the way they did when they entered into Somalia, they have to rethink it? The core business of the KDF is not to go and protect Somalis in Somalia. Their core business is to ensure that whatever threat comes from outside does not reach us. Thank God that Gen. Karangi is retiring in a months’ time. We hope that he will go away completely and that the President will get somebody competent who is going to give him proper advice; that the soldiers should now move out of Somalia, come to the Kenyan border and make sure that no threat reaches us. I support.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I wish to give my pole to the people of Mandera County. I am a Member of this Committee and part of the team that went to Mandera. The situation in Mandera is really pathetic in terms of insecurity. On the ground, we saw a lot of development that is taking place; a lot of structures are coming up and business is booming. Citizens living in the diaspora are really investing in Mandera. So, if there is insecurity, are they really going to keep investing? We are killing these counties that have come through marginalization over the years. I think that the Government should address insecurity very seriously. As a preemptive measure, the Committee called security agencies as we wait for our report to be tabled before the House, and we had discussions with them and pointed out the areas that need intervention. They promised us that they were going to work on what we discussed with them. Hardly two weeks down the line, people in Mandera County were attacked. Does it mean that these people do not get advice or know what is happening? One of the concerns that we found on the ground is the policy of procurement in the police department; where a police Land Cruiser has to travel all the way from Mandera to Mwingi to draw 15 litres of fuel. By the time he goes back to Mandera, the vehicle has no fuel. This is a contract agreement that the police department has entered with suppliers. I think we have a big problem. If the life of the Governor is at threat, what The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, first, I want to thank the Senator for Mandera and I want to associate myself fully with the sentiments he has expressed on the security situation in his county. Situations of insecurity are far too many and far too frequent. In all these situations, innocent Kenyans, human beings, God’s creations lose their lives without any justification whatsoever. They also lose large amounts of property. We have seen this in Tana River, Kitui, Bungoma, Westgate in Nairobi, Mombasa, Wajir, Garissa and Mandera. You will recall in an earlier incident in Mandera, Kenyans were lined up and executed in an organized and systematic manner. Some of the people who lost their lives were civil servants, teachers, doctors, nurses and people working in public institutions in Mandera County. Eight of this came from my own county in Kisii. We are still mourning their deaths but in the process, they left behind widows, children and aging parents who now face a bleak and hopeless future. The principal target of the attack in Mandera was actually the Governor himself, who is the chief executive officer of the County Government of Mandera. Right now, I am sure the Governor feels vulnerable. If the chief executive officer feels vulnerable, what about the ordinary citizen? The state of insecurity has serious implications on the social life of Kenyans. It has created fear and despondence. It has serious ramifications on the performance of the economy of Mandera County and indeed on the economy of the country as a whole. It has a negative impact on the livelihoods of the people both in Mandera and elsewhere. We all agree that the first responsibility of the national Government is to protect lives and property of the people. The question we ask is; do we have the political will and resolve to deal with this situation? Do we have the capacity to protect the lives and property of the people? If indeed we do or we feel we do, there is then an urgent need for the national Government to commit itself to guarantee security to Kenyans in Mandera County and everywhere in the Republic. With those few remarks, I beg to support.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, from the outset, I would like to support this Motion. I have worked in Mandera and I know it and I know the people of Mandera. The people of Mandera believe in Kenya. They have believed in Kenya since Independence. The people of Mandera are hardworking people. They love development and peace. I am shocked that the county is under siege. This is the first county in Kenya to have a curfew brought about by some gangs or some terrorists. I am ashamed that the The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I join my colleagues in sending condolences to people who died in all the attacks and especially the last one. I also want to express concern about the unfortunate security situation in Mandera. These are now repeated attacks and deaths in large numbers. The life of the Governor is at risk. It is as if Mandera County is, as people there usually claim, not in Kenya. The people of the former Northern Frontier District (NFD) have over the years claimed that they are not in Kenya. But with the new Constitution and devolution, for the first time they have started feeling that they are Kenyans. This is because they are governed by their own people and resources are now trickling down to those areas. So, for Mandera, it is a new hope. But this new hope is being dashed by some militia which we cannot compare with our forces. They have become so powerful that now the whole county is under a curfew not because of an order of the President or Parliament, but by The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, for giving me a chance to contribute to this Motion of Adjournment. Insecurity in this country is a concern to every Kenyan. Kenyans are, therefore, looking up to leaders to give solutions to insecurity. We are tired of waiting until something happens and then we are told that investigations have been launched. At the end of the day, after the victims have been buried, that is the end of the story. Prevention is better than cure. We need to protect Kenyans. I want to remind the Jubilee Government that as per the Constitution, they have a duty to protect the citizens of this country. They have a duty and a responsibility to use all means to ensure that the lives of Kenyans are secured. If people who are protected are under threat, what about common mwananchi? There are a series of cases that go unreported simply because there is laxity and we cannot allow this, we must stand firm and say no to insecurity in this country. Without security, we cannot develop, we cannot get investors and people cannot plan well in this country. The issue of insecurity is something that we cannot sit back and blame one another but we have a duty and a responsibility. I want to mention something about the way we shift blame and this has made even the security personnel not to know which way to go or which is the best way for them to perform their duties because if they kill, they are blamed and if they sit back, they are blamed too. We must look at both sides because even the security people and the police officers are Kenyans. If they are attacked and die, it is again a loss to this country. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this Motion. I would like to send my condolences to the relatives of the victims of various attacks in Mandera and parts of this country and also to empathize with the Senator for Mandera and the residents of Mandera for all they are going through. I had the opportunity of working in Mandera since the year 2006. I was there as a roads engineer and by virtue of my job, I had to travel a lot. I know what the people of Mandera are going through.It is only now because of the county government and trying to take issues into their own hands in terms of development, we are getting this information. Unfortunately, to a larger extent, that area - that is the former North Eastern Province and the former Northern Frontier District (NFD) - has been left to fend and to secure itself. For the case of Mandera, they have, for a long time gone through very difficult times. In fact, when I was there, those of us who come from outside the area could not sleep. There were times when from evening to 3.00 a.m., there was a lot of gun fire in Mandera. That time it was the Somali system against the Ethiopian system. Mandera is at the tip of Kenya; to the north, we have Ethiopia and to the east, we have Somalia. Sometimes, they even fight through the Mandera Airspace and the bullets land in Mandera Town. There is a petrol station where somebody was fueling his vehicle when he was hit by a big calibre bullet from Somalia while they were firing at Ethiopia and all this time, we have a Government there. So, Kenyans have been left on their own for a long time. Now, when they have to develop or make use of devolution, you can see the kind of obstacles they are facing. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I blame the Kenyan Government squarely for all this because Mandera is part of Kenya and the residents of Mandera have all the right to be protected by their Government; but that has not been forthcoming. I know that there is a military camp at the airstrip there and there are many police officers there; but the practice is that you only see them during the day. How you will go through the 12 hours of the night is up to you; you will meet them in the morning. You only see the police officers in the morning and at night, you are on your own. Of course, the people from Somalia – the terrorists – will take advantage of that situation; that is why they can hit whenever and wherever they want. This is the situation as it is and it has been so in the past, but we have to change it. The Kenyan Government has to take responsibility. The other day, I was in a Committee meeting, talking to some senior security officers and they told us that the intelligence that the Kenyan Government has is that there is a plan to create a caliphate from the Coast up to Mandera. They were trying to justify why these people are coming in. We have our military all the way to Kismayu, but when you ask them where our military is along the Mandera border, they tell you that is Gedo Region, which is under Ethiopia according to the African Union (AU). How do you give a foreign country authority to control or protect your border for you yet you have sent your military all the way across Somalia to the Port of Kismayu? The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, for this opportunity to contribute to this Motion. From the outset, if you are to consider what is currently happening in Mandera County, it is actually a high time the leadership of this country, including the Senate, agreed on how we are going to have security in this county. On issues of education, as we talk today, there are no teachers in Mandera schools. Teachers fear for their lives and a number of them have not returned to school as we talk today. There are no children in school and there are also no workers. Two, on issues to do with health, a number of doctors and nurses are no longer in hospitals there because everybody fears for their lives. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, it has reached a point where even our police stations and police camps are not safe anymore. If these people are even attacking police stations, where they know very well that there are police officers who have the right equipment, how safe is the local mwananchi ? It is high time we rethink the whole issue of insecurity. If there is something we can do, as the Senate, to ensure that the people of Mandera County have security, this is the time. I have been asking myself where the entry point of these militants - the Al-
– is and from our understanding, one of the entry points is Mandera County. The Senate Minority Leader pointed out an issue which I also want to point out about the role of our Kenya Defence Forces (KDF). Why are they not taking care of our borders? It is better if we fight these enemies at the border rather than wait for them to come to Nairobi to finish our people in malls and big buildings. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, when we enacted the new Constitution, the people of this country were so happy and one of the reasons why they were happy is because of devolution. Until today, the people of Mandera County do not understand why devolution exists. They have not seen any fruits of devolution because of constant insecurity in the county. Investors are not free again to invest in Mandera County. Teachers from other parts of the country who used to work in Mandera County today cannot go there because of insecurity. The children of Mandera County will sit the same Kenya Certificate of Primary Education (KCPE) and Kenya Certificate of Secondary Education (KCSE) exams at the end of this year with children from the rest of the country. Under those circumstances in which they are operating, as we talk today, there are no teachers and children in school, do we expect them to sit for the same KCPE exams with other children from other parts of the country? How are we going to develop the rest of the country and leave a part of this country? The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Order, Senator. Your time is up. I suggest that the three other Senators who want to contribute to take three minutes each because the time is over so that everyone can have a chance to contribute. Proceed, Sen. Moses Kajwang; you have two minutes.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I come from Homa Bay County which is quite a distance from Mandera County. But insecurity anywhere in this country affects all parts of this nation. I am amazed that a whole Governor can be attacked by a rocket propelled grenade. Where I come from, the fastest thing that travels is a stone that has been hurled using a sling. The story in Mandera is like a horror story; rocket propelled grenades hurled at Governors? We have heard of 36 quarry workers who were killed in one instance in the past; 28 people killed and 11 teachers were killed sometimes in 2014. These are the kind of things that prompt citizens to start saying “ Mandera si Kenya .” Previous speakers have talked about high seas and breeding of Boko Haram, but where should the buck stop? I know that the Jubilee Government borrowed a Cabinet Secretary in charge of security from the Opposition and we had an Inspector-General (IG) of Police appointed just the other day. I believe that the buck stops squarely in the hands of the Chief Executive Officer (CEO) of this nation, because the primary responsibility of any government or authority is the security, safety and wellbeing of its citizens. That should be paramount and the first thing. We anticipate more chaos as we approach the next election. Some of these things are cyclic. As much as we talk about the Al Shabaab and clan conflict, we should be a bit more vigilant as we approach the next elections. Unfortunately, our Government has resorted to public relations. That is why we are seeing the likes of Tony Blair coming into the country so that we cover up the things which are happening here so that it is only positive things that happen which will be reported for purposes of next election. I urge all Senators here to take a non-partisan approach on this matter. This is an area where we, as the opposition, cannot allow the Government to fail. I support.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. It is strange that we are discussing about Mandera again when we talked about it last year. I was told that from Lamu to El Wak, we are covered by our KDF who are in Somalia. However, between El Wak and Mandera, this is a porous area. This is an area where we are being The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Asante Bw. Spika wa Muda. Naomba hata mimi nichangie Hoja hii. Bwana Kerrow ana kero nyingi tangu jana kulingana na vile nilivyomuona kwenye runinga. Swala la usalama ni la muhimu sana. Saa hizi, mimi kama mama nashangaa vile kulivyo huko Mandera. Shule zilifungwa huko Mandera na itakapofika mwezi wa nane, watoto wa Mandera wahitajika kufanya mitihani kama wengine. Lazima tutie nywele maji kabla ya Boko Haram kuja hapa.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I support this Motion which is well intended. This Motion was discussed last year. From last year up to now, nothing much has happened. We should learn from China. One time, India wanted to attack China; the Chinese told Indians that they would parade along the border. They marched towards India killing everything that was alive including cockroaches. That is what we should do now. Let us mobilize our people to move to the border and clear everything that is causing us all these problems. We should also create a buffer zone. That is what we need to do. I support.
Order, hon. Senators. It is now 7 o’clock. The Senate stands adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday, 18th March, 2015 at 2.30 p.m. The Senate rose at 7.00 p.m. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.