Hon. Senators, I have a short Communication to make. Hon. Senators, I wish to welcome you from the Easter Holiday recess and thank you for finding time to attend this Special Sitting of the Senate. Having just commenced our very short recess during which time I am sure each one of you had scheduled major county events, I know it is because of the value you attach to the business of the Senate, especially the consideration of a key piece of legislation like the Division of Revenue Bill that you have created time to be here today. Hon. Senators, you may recall that the Division of Revenue Bill (National Assembly Bill No. 11 of 2015) was read the First Time in the Senate on Wednesday, 1st April, 2015, and committed to the Standing Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget for consideration. Hon. Senators, for your information, Standing Order No. 160(3) provides that; and I quote:- “The Senate shall proceed upon and conclude its consideration of the Division of Revenue Bill not later than ten days after the Bill has been introduced with a view to approving it, with or without amendments.” The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to lay the following Paper on the Table of the Senate today:- Report of the Standing Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget on the Division of Revenue Bill (National Assembly Bill No. 11 of 2015)
The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Sen. Obure, what can possibly be your point of order at this stage?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I just want some guidance. I thank you for your guidance on the proceedings of today. I am sure the Chairperson is about to move this Bill; but the report of the Standing Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget, which is supposed to be available to us, has not been availed. I believe that is what will be tabled here. Secondly, the Commission on Revenue Allocation (CRA) is required to submit its recommendations to the Senate, National Assembly, the National Executive, county assemblies and the County Executives. I do not know whether this has been submitted, but I certainly do not have a copy myself---
Order, Senator! What are you referring to?
Mr. Deputy Speaker Sir, I am referring to Article 216(5) of the Constitution which requires the CRA to submit its recommendations to us. I have not seen any copy and I am just wondering how I will be in a position to debate this Bill even before I see the Report of our own Standing Committee and before I receive a report of the various recommendations made by the CRA.
So, your point of order is twofold; one, on the report being availed to Members; and, two, on compliance or otherwise of Article 216(5). Am I correct?
That is correct, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
What are you asking me to do?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I was just wondering if we, in this House, are in a position to debate the Bill which is about to be tabled and moved meaningfully if we have not been in possession of these documents.
Yes, I hear you. Now, regarding your first point, that would be the easier part because we can suspend the sitting for copies to be made available to you, if that is what you wish. I am sure you are aware that we must complete debate on this issue today. Again, that is the easier part because we can extend time until we are through with the debate on this issue and pass or fail to pass the Division of Revenue Bill. So, the first part is not difficult because we can suspend the The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Deputy Speaker Sir, I am not a Member of the Committee.
The Committee has worked very hard within certain timelines because it is only on 1st April, 2015, that I committed the Bill to the Committee chaired by Sen. Billow, for it to be considered, appreciating that it must be completed within 10 days, which end tomorrow, as I have said in my Communication from the Chair. Indeed, I have just approved the report for tabling this afternoon over lunch because the Committee was still working on it until very late because it is not a small issue. So, first of all, I would like to commend the Committee for working very hard to ensure that we have the report.
I will consult on the issue of whether or not we should suspend the House. If we do, then you appreciate that we will need to extend the time accordingly. Your second issue is constitutional; it is on Article 216(5). Now, you should have read the whole article so that it flows about the flow of events. It states:- “The Commission shall submit its recommendations to the Senate, the National Assembly, the national executive, county assemblies and county executives.” As I sit here, I do not know whether it came or not, but I am certain that a report must have come to the Senate or to the Committee. However, I do not think that will stop us from debating the Division of Revenue Bill because it has gone to the National Assembly, and I want to assume that all the steps that were required to have been taken, including negotiations on the amounts, duly took place and that is how the Bill was passed at the National Assembly level. That is also how it came to us on 1st April and the reason why the Committee has now come up with a Report which we are going to debate as we debate the Bill in the Second Reading so that we can go to the Third Reading. So, if it is the desire of the House, we can make those copies very quickly and then we reconvene so that we can have time to read it. Hon. Senators, let me clarify this issue. The fact that there are no copies is not something that you can apportion blame on. As Sen. Musila would tell you – because he has been in this for a long time – you cannot make copies of a report until it is tabled. It has to be tabled first and only then can we make copies. This is because it has to show endorsement on it that it has been tabled. So, I am going to suspend the proceedings after I have listened to your points of order. I will listen to all of you until such time that we can then have a report that you have in front of you as we debate. What is your point of order, Sen. Billow?
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The Bill itself, which is before the House, has been available to the Members from last week. The report of the Members which has copies of the Commission for Revenue Allocation (CRA) recommendations is really what we will be tabling. It is a Bill that focuses basically on The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Sen. Ndiema, why are you raising up your hand instead of inserting your card? Please, go on.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, while I appreciate the work done by the relevant Committee, I think that for purposes of orderliness, because this is a serious matter, it would be very important that in exercises like this one, these matters are handled well in advance rather than to achieve everything---
Order, Sen. Ndiema! It is means that you are not listening to me. After I commended the Committee, I said that procedurally, you cannot make copies of a report that has not been tabled before the House. So, there is nothing wrong at all that the Committee has done in the circumstances. They have done everything they can. Like Sen. Billow said, we all had one week to read the report and the Bill itself, upon which the report is based. So, I do not wish to apportion any blame because there is none.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am not apportioning any blame. What I said is that in future, this report should be tabled well in advance.
Order, Sen. Ndiema! You appreciate that we are on recess. So, when could it have been tabled? We are here on a Special Sitting to debate this Report.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we had a whole year to do it.
I think that is pushing it too far. I am sure that you appreciate that we only got this Bill last week from the National Assembly. My screen is scrambled. Is there any other point of order? May I request that we reduce these points of order, so that we have enough time to debate the Bill and Report? Please, proceed, Sen. Kagwe. You are a Member of the Committee. Are you not?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, as a Member of the Committee, I think that it is important for us to appreciate that we had very little time to deal with this because of other issues. The matter does not come to the Committee a year in advance. So, it is not possible for us to discuss it a year in advance. We can only discuss it at the time it is sent by the National Assembly to the Senate. I want to propose a way forward.
The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Please, take your seat, Sen. Wako.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to propose a way forward, so that we do not dwell too much on whether or not to break. I propose that we take half-an-hour break after which everybody who wants to see the document will have seen and read it.
Sen. Khaniri, why are you standing up yet I have not called you out? Please, proceed briefly, Sen. Khaniri.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I join you in thanking the Committee for the good job done within the specified time. However, I want to propose to my colleagues that the business on the Order Paper today is the Division of Revenue Bill, which we have been seized of for the last three or four days. The report of the Committee can be treated like an amendment to whatever business that we are discussing. Therefore, it does not warrant us to break for 30 minutes. We can go through the Report as the Mover moves the Bill. By the time the Mover and Seconder are done, we will have gone through the Report.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I join you in congratulating the Committee. I also note that we have had precedent before where some reports done by the committees, noting the work and the stakeholders that they have met, would be very good in guiding the House in terms of what direction we take in the discussion and debate of this Bill. I join Sen. Kagwe on the view that we have taken a break of one hour in other reports previously. However, since this is being brought in as an amendment, we can make it shorter and take 30 minutes. But going forward, I think it would be very important that we have the break to look at the report.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I do not know what you are standing to rule on. But I want to propose that, one, we do not turn this House into a rubberstamp. We have to work. I suggest that we give Members 30 minutes to read through the document and before 6.30 p.m., we move a Motion to extend our sitting until we are through with the business of the House. This will ensure that we do not just run through the business as if it has come here to be rubberstamped and sent on for implementation.
Thank you, Senators. All of you have basically said what I had said; that we are going to suspend the sitting. I think it is reasonable that we suspend the sitting for 30 minutes, so that as the Report is taken through the Second Reading of the Bill, all of you can have a report to look at. I think that will be right thing to do. Regarding extension of time, that will depend on you and how the debate through the Second and Third Reading will go. I direct that the House remains suspended for 30 minutes. We shall come back at 3.25 p.m. to continue with our business. I believe that by that time, all of you will have had copies and looked at them. Hon. Members, the House is suspended for 30 minutes. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
All right; I believe we can proceed now. Can you call the orders, please, so that we can proceed?
Where is the Senate Majority Leader? Sen. Billow, are you the one moving the Bill? Can you proceed?
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I beg to move that the Division of Revenue Bill be read a Second Time. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, Article 124 of the Constitution of Kenya provides for the establishment of our Committee of Finance, Commerce and Budget, which has looked at this Bill because it is part of our mandate. I want to take the Members through it. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Division of Revenue Bill (National Assembly Bill No. 11 of 2015) was passed by the National Assembly on Wednesday, 25th March, 2015. The same was communicated to us; it was forwarded to our Committee and we looked at it. The Bill provides for the division of the nationally raised revenue between two levels of Government. The Bill itself is accompanied by a memorandum, which is an explanation of the revenue allocation. Article 218 of the Constitution also requires that we use the criteria provided for there. It also requires that we provide a summary of any significant deviation from the recommendations by the Commission for Revenue Allocation (CRA). So, the Bill has got a memorandum explaining all that. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, pursuant to Article 118 of the Constitution and Senate Standing Order No.130, our Committee considered the Bill; we invited key stakeholders, including the national Treasury, the Council of Governors (CoGs), the CRA, the County Assemblies Forum (CAF), the Controller of Budget and other members of the public, including non-state actors. In that regard, we facilitated public participation and took into account their views and recommendations in our Report to the Senate. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to remind hon. Senators that the enactment of this Bill is critical because it sets the stage for the preparation of the County Allocation of Revenue Bill, which will inform the preparation of the respective county budgets. Counties must do their budgets by the end of this month. So, we have very strict timelines and a very tight schedule. So, we are also submitting the Report of this Committee for the consideration and approval of the Members. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Order, Members! Order! The consultations are too high and we have a very serious business to deal with. So, consult in low tones.
So, in Section 6, the Bill looks at the mechanisms for resolution of any dispute which, again, the objective is to avoid wasteful expenditure by going to court instead of pursuing the provisions of the alternative mechanisms provided in Article 189 of the Constitution. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the most important part of the Bill is the Schedule, which is on page 6 of the Bill. Page 6 of the Bill shows Schedule (s.4), the allocation of revenue raised nationally between the national and county governments for the Financial Year 2015/2016, with three columns. There is a column on the level or type of allocation; the second column is on the amounts and then the percentages. So, I want to seek your indulgence to take hon. Members through this, because we appreciate that it is very important that you get it. The total allocation to the national Government is Kshs978.692 billion, which includes the free maternal healthcare of Kshs4.2 bilion, leasing of medical equipment of Kshs4.5 billion, it also includes Kshs2 billion for Level 5 hospitals and healthcare facilities compensation. We also have equalization fund which is Kshs6 billion because it is taking into account the arrears for the previous year. The county equitable share, which is the shareable allocation of revenue for the counties, is Kshs258 billion. The total sharable amountsof revenue for both levels of government comes to Kshs1.142 trillion. Out of that, the allocation for the counties is in the next part. The equitable share that the Bill recommends is Kshs258.008 billion. The Bill proposes the following conditional allocation:- (1) Kshs25,733,685,204 billion, which comprises the following:- (a)free maternal healthcare of Ksh4.2 billion; (b) leasing of medical equipment of Ksh4.5 billion; (c) level 3 hospitals, Ksh2 billion;
Level 5 hospital not Level 3.
Sorry, Level 5 and not Level 3. (d) allocation from fuel levy fund which is 15 per cent, it is Kshs3.3 billion; The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to second this very important Bill. As I do so, allow me to thank the Chairman of the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget for allowing me to second such an important Bill in this House. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
There is a lot of interest on this issue, as indicated on the screen. So, I may have to reduce the time to speak in due course.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to support this Bill. In doing so, I would like to thank both the Chairman and the Seconder of the Bill for highlighting resilient and important features. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, from the outset, I would like to highlight one or two things. The first one has to do with the fact that as a Committee, we have fought substantially to see that the amount that is being discussed goes up. However, the enemies of devolution today are not this House or the National Assembly, but corruption at the county level. They are nepotism and serious conflicts of interest in business within the county governments. We will increase wastage of resources, no matter how much we give here, unless we can increase the oversight capabilities of both the county assemblies The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Order, Senators! I have 15 requests on the screen and each of you has 15 minutes to contribute. If you multiply that, it comes to 225 minutes. This is equal to 3.75 hours or almost four hours. You realize the fact that we do not have four hours remaining. If I give you 10 minutes each, that will translate to 150 minutes, which is about 2.5 hours. I think each of you would like to contribute. Therefore, I am proposing each Member to contribute for 10 minutes. But in fairness---
Order, Senators! You will contribute for five minutes, as you request because it is still within 10 minutes which I had earlier proposed. So, it is up to you. You can contribute for five minutes and you will save us a lot of time. However, I am looking at the bigger picture. So, it is going to be 10 minutes. But since I had granted Sen. Kagwe 15 minutes, I will grant 15 minutes to the next speaker. But he can speak for the period of time that he wants to speak as long as it is no more than 15 minutes. What is your point of order, Sen. Muthama?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not want to look like I am challenging the ruling of the Chair, but what we should consider is the number of Senators we have here. If you take the number here and give that first 10 minutes, we will still be here at 6.30 p.m., with about 12 Senators to go. So, my suggestion is that we go straight away to five minutes so that we accommodate everybody.
Okay; let us look at this. Does that sound equitable?
I am asking that question because I do not want anybody to say that they were shut out. First of all, if you refer to Standing Order No.29(5), there will be no need to apply for extension of time. We shall proceed until we finish Business, subject to not going beyond midnight. Howevesr, you do not need to make an application for the extension of time. So, you have until midnight. But if you want us to do five minutes, I will be quite happy because we are going to Committee of the Whole Stage which, in my view, is more critical than this stage. So, are we agreeing on five minutes?
Okay, let us be fair to each other; if we can do two minutes, five minutes or whatever number of minutes, it would be very good, indeed. However, it is too early to curtail you to five minutes. Proceed, Sen. Musila; you have 10 minutes.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I stand to support this Bill. Once again, we are here drumming support for our counties to get more revenue. I want The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Order! Senator, your time is up.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to support this Bill. I also want to add my voice in commending the good work done by the Committee. I am pleased because this amount was arrived at after consultations with various stakeholders. I also want to register my disappointment with the CRA because it has treated this House unfairly. The recommendation that the CRA does should first comes to this House The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Asante, Bw. Naibu Spika. Leo ni siku ya maana kwa Seneti hii kwa sababu tunajadiliana pesa zilizotengewa Serikali za Kaunti. Sisi twataka kuupitisha Mswada wa kuzipa pesa Serikali hizi kwa minajili ya maendeleo na kazi zingine za muhimu. Hatupitishi pesa hizi kusudi magavana wa kaunti wajipendekeze kwa wananchi kwamba wao ndio wenye pesa. Kama hawaangalii runinga, waangalie ili waone ni akina nani wanaopendekeza mgao huu wa pesa. Je, ni nani aliye na kibuyu au kifurushi cha pesa? Ni Bunge la Seneti. Wanafaa kwenda nje na kusema; “pesa hizi nimewaletea ni Sen. Machage aliyezitafuta.” Hivi leo twaangaza macho yetu kwa Kshs258 billion ambazo zimegawa na Bunge la Kitaifa. Kuna mgao mdogo kwa minajili ya matibabu ya akina mama, vifaa vya matibabu, kusaidia hospitali za kiwango cha Daraja la 5 na kadhalika. Tunapendekeza kwamba Serikali hizi zipate mgao wa Kshs283,741,685,204. Hizi si pesa chache kwa sababu ukizaliwa leo na uanze kuzihesabu, utafika umri wa miaka 87 kabla kumaliza. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Order! Senator, your time is up.
Ungenipa hata dakika moja tu!
Order! You must organize your time within the ten minutes due to you.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I also rise to support the Report and to also thank the Committee for I know they have done very extensive work. I also want to thank all the stakeholders who attended the public hearings. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is time we gave a very clear recommendation to the CRA, that it will be prudent if every December we receive their recommendations on this Bill because that is what the Constitution says. We are hoping that this year we shall start on a new slate and ensure that within Article 216 of this Constitution we are able to agree and follow the procedure to the end. I would also like to talk on two other issues with regard to this Bill. First, is the issue of equipment. I want to thank Sen. (Dr.) Machage because it was in 2013 when he brought before this House a Motion urging the Government to ensure that all Level 5 and Level 4 hospitals are provided with this equipment. The Constitution of Kenya, 2010, in Article 43 states that every person has the right to health. Women are the ones who suffer in this country when it comes to issues of equipment. When a woman in Turkana is taken ill and she wants to do dialysis, she must travel to Eldoret. That is because we only have four ICUs in this country; Nakuru, Mombasa. Eldoret and Nairobi. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, when we talk about this equipment, this was a tender that was floated way back in November 2013 and the companies that were awarded were very serious companies that even a Kenyan who would have wished to be part of this could not. We are talking about companies like Philips from the Netherlands and General Electric from the United States of America where we are sourcing radiology equipment. The county that saddens me most is Garissa County where there is only one theatre table. During the recent terrorist attack in Garissa, the Government had to fly to Garissa six surgeons who were unable to work because there was only one theatre table. If, indeed, we had that equipment, today the number of casualties would have been less because we had to airlift those who were hurt to KNH. It is also important for us to look at this situation from a different perspective. I want to inform the House that some of us before we became Senators, we supplied goods to the Government through a tendering process. I know how the Ministry has had challenges. When we talk about managing equipment services, in sub-saharan Africa and even in the United Kingdom, this is the procedure they use. One of the things it does is to ensure that you have the same person to maintain the equipment and train the users. This helps to save a lot of money and ensures that taxpayers’ money is properly used. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Looking at the number of Members interested, I further rule that the time limit be five minutes. The next speaker will have five minutes. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, from the outset, I want to make it clear that we are discussing the accounts of the Financial Year 2012/2013. In supporting this Report, we must read it carefully, analyse it and come up with answers. I wish the Chairman were here. If you go to page 9, this Report has a lot of discrepancies. This is what I want Senators to analyse. On page nine, starting with the column that reads “National Government,” the allocation to the national Government is Kshs976,925,500,000. Out of this, Free Maternal Health Care is given Kshs4,298,000; Leasing of Medical Equipment is Kshs4.5 billion; Level 5 Hospitals Kshs3,600,480,000; Healthcare facilities, Kshs900 million; Compensation for foregone user fees County Emergency Funds is Kshs4.4 billion; Equalisation Fund is Kshs6 billion and County Equitable Share is Kshs259,774,500,000. If you add the figures starting with Kshs1,242,700,000,000 all the way done, it is wrong. There is Kshs18 billion hidden in the addition which had never be thrashed out. That is point number one.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order! What you have pointed out could have meaning. However, if you look at Order No.3 on our Order Paper, we are actually looking at the Bill; the Division of Revenue Bill (National Assembly Bill No. 11 of 2015). We are not discussing the adoption of the Committee’s Report, just to correct you.
Thank you very much, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. However, I was just pointing out the errors. In mathematics, numbers must add up. If they do not add up, then there is something extremely wrong with these figures. There is Kshs18 billion hidden somewhere. To conclude my contribution, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, just read down there on the “Total Sharable Revenue.” What does that mean? It means that the sharable revenue is Kshs1,242,700,000,000. However, the Chairman, his Committee and the CRA turn around and tell us that audited accounts are Kshs776.9 billion when allocation has already been made. Look at all this. These are physical numbers. Therefore, Kshs776.9 billion is a number that is picked and plucked there and we are told that is the audited account. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, we should deal with the true position. You cannot change me from what is provided for in the Total Shareable Revenue to read something else. I want Senators here to stand and tell me what exactly we are sharing here.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): If you listened to me, that is why I advise and direct you to look at the figures on the printed Bill that is presented to us for discussion. I am sure the Committee may have noticed that. You should look at it. If you want to make any comments for the speaker’s benefit, do so but you should look at the Bill and discuss it.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, will you add me two more minutes because the interferences were many?
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Okay, you have two more minutes.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I still insist whether the Bill will come, whether it is on the way or whether it has been presented, currently, we The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order, Sen. Muthama. Sometimes, it is good to listen to the Speaker when he gives advice and direction. Whereas your concern may be legitimate, you will not even have the opportunity to move any amendment on that Report. You can only make amendments at the Third Stage of the Bill. So, save your voice and energy. You have put the point, but listen to my advice on the real issue here. One more minute, Sen. Muthama.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I agree with your advice. I take it seriously. However, let it be noted that what is written in this Report is written and what the Chairman read was a collection of every detail from this Report. If I had the Bill here, I would have talked differently. However, currently, I am dealing with this. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I do not support.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I rise to support this Report and the amendments. First and foremost, I am really disappointed with the CRA. It looks like the discussions we had with them prior to this Bill fell on deaf ears. It is not right for this Senate to be used as a rubber stamp. Secondly, the Constitution and other legislations are very clear in terms of how the budgets should be formed. I am sure Members of the public are informed about what is happening in the Budget. If a commission is not putting into consideration the recommendation by the Senate, then I do not know what we are doing here. To add my voice on the amendments, I would like to talk about Level 5 Hospitals. Some of us come from counties where there are no Level 5 Hospitals. You will find that there is a mother who has a maternity problem. If she is taken to Isiolo County Hospital, she might not get the services she requires. So, where will she go? It is important to increase funding to Level 4 Hospitals. It is unfair for one person to travel all the way from Wajir, Isiolo or Marsabit all the way to Nyeri or to KNH. Regarding the issue of village polytechnics, Kshs19 million has been allocated to each county. That is nothing. We must get our priorities right. There are some counties that do not have village polytechnics. Why can the CRA or the Government not look at the counties which do not have village polytechnics and give priority to them instead of giving each county Kshs19 million? This is really unfair and it should be reconsidered. The other point is consideration by the stakeholders before we end up discussing this issue in the Senate. According to me, it is just formality. We listen to various stakeholders, but unfortunately, we do not consider their recommendations when we come up with a budget. We must change this routine. Finally regarding security, we have a big challenge and I have seen the recommendations in the Bill. It is high time that we consider those amendments and seriously fund the security department and make sure the funding goes to the relevant counties facing insecurity in this country. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Asante sana, Bw. Spika wa Muda, kwa kunipa nafasi hii ili kwa roho ngumu na huzuni mwingi niunge mkono Mswada huu. Kama ningekuwa ni mtu wa kawaida ningeupinga Mswada huu lakini kwa sababu mimi ni Seneta, nitaunga mkono. Nitatoa sababu kwa nini naunga mkono Mswada huu. Naunga mkono Mswada huu kwa sababu tunaongeza pesa kwenda katika serikali za kaunti. Je, serikali hizi za kaunti zinajua kama sisi tunafanya kazi hiyo? Hao magavana wanajua na kuheshimu Seneti kwamba sisi ndio baba na mama wanaowapelekea pesa hizo? Leo hii hapa tunang’ang’ana kuongeza zaidi ya Kshs30 billion lakini ukifika huko, Maseneta hawajulikani wala hawaonekani mahali popote. Hakuna mahali ambapo Seneti inasemekana kwamba imefanya kazi hii. Hii imekuwa kama hadithi ya mnyama fulani kufukuza mnyama na akishamshika, anapewa mifupa. Sisi kazi yetu hatueleweki wala hakuna jambo lolote tunalolifanya katika kaunti zetu. Ikizidi, wanasema kwamba Maseneta wako Nairobi na kazi yao ni kula chapati na kuku na wala hatufanyi kazi. Wakati huu haya ndio mambo ambayo tunatetea na tunataka pesa nyingi kwenda katika kaunti kwa sababu ya kufanya mambo ambayo yatakuwa na manufaa ya watu wetu. Kwa mfano, kuna pesa za dharura. Ni nani asiyekubali kwamba kaunti zetu zote zina mambo ya dharura. Kuna dharura za ukame, vyakula na kadhalika. Ndio maana kifungu hiki cha pesa za dharura ambazo zimetengwa na Seneti hii, naishukuru sana Kamati ya Fedha na Bajeti kwa kutenga fedha za dharura katika kaunti. Tukiangalia fedha za afya ni kwamba Kamati ya Fedha na Bajeti yataka kuona kwamba wananchi katika kaunti wanapata huduma nzuri za afya. Jiulize ni hospitali gani katika kaunti utapata ina madawa na vifaa vya kutosha? Hali ni ile ya miaka nenda, miaka rudi na hakuna mabadiliko. Haya ndio mambo ambayo tunasema tuna uzitu mkubwa wa kuongeza pesa hizi. Tunachohitaji zaidi ni kuonekana ya kwamba kuna mambo yanayobadilika katika kaunti. Hali za wananchi wetu bado ni hali zile za “19 vua” kofia mpaka leo. Hakuna madadiliko hospitalini; foleni ni zile zile, shida ni zile zile. Sasa imekuwa ni hatari bin danger .
Kwa hoja ya nidhamu, Bw. Naibu Spika wa Muda. Ningependa kuuliza huu mwaka wa “19 vua” kofia ni upi?
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Ni nidhamu au ni swali?
Je, kutuambia sisi kwamba kuna mwaka unaitwa “19 vua” kofia ni haki?
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Basi jieleze, Mheshimiwa.
Bw. Spika, namshukuru. Mwaka “19 vua kofia” ni kutoka 1900 mpaka leo. Yaani kutoka hiyo miaka ilipoanza mpaka leo, hakuna mabadiliko yoyote, hali ni ile ile ya kutoka 1900 mpaka 2015; hali haibadiliki. Ndio maana tunasema The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order! Senator, your time is up. Sen. Wetangula, as you present your views, your representative – Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale – said that he had your blessings to second this Bill. I want you to address the concerns of Sen. Muthama. If there is a mistake, create an avenue for amendment.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I had to let Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale do the seconding because I just arrived this morning from India and had not gone through the Bill properly. Now that I have read through the Bill, if you look at page 6 of the Bill, we are actually, as a Senate, perpetuating a fraud on the counties. When Sen. Billow was moving the Bill, he said that the most important table was on page 6. If you look at page 6, the percentages and figures given do not add up. We have been arguing that we need more money to go to the counties and devolved functions are not being adequately resourced. These include agriculture, water and rural roads. There are inordinately large sums of money held at the centre. The national Government is continuing to---
On a point of information, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order! Are you on a point of information or point of order? Can you clarify what you want?
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, if you check---
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): First of all, can you clarify what point you are on?
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I am rising on a point of information.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Then he has to give you the permission Do you accept to be informed, Sen. Wetangula?
Please, inform me.
Thank you very much, Senate Minority Leader. I know that the Chairman said that we stick to page 6, but we also need to read Table 2 on page 15 of the Bill. On page15, Table 2, the total revenue collection for Financial Year 2015/2016 is Kshs1,242,699,000. But what is being referred to on the other end is 33 per cent of money which was collected in Financial Year 2012/2013 is Kshs776.9 billion.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): You will have to explain yourself later as the Vice-Chair of the Committee. Let Sen. Wetangula speak his mind.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I had not even made my point. I had already seen both tables. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I was saying that we must, as a Senate, continue fighting for and making the CRA appreciate that the difficulties of implementation and absorption of money at the counties notwithstanding, functions must be sufficiently The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I would like the Senate Minority Leader to make a clarification because it appears like he is misleading the House. The Constitution talks about a percentage of the last audited accounts, and that is exactly what has been quoted here.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order, Sen. Mungai! I will give you time to explain yourself. Sen. Wetangula is explaining facts. Listen.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, he started by saying that it appears like I am misleading the House. How can it appear? It is either I am misleading the House or not, and I know that I am not. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, this is a Bill that has come to this House from the National Assembly. It is very clear for the distinguished Senator for Nakuru. If you look at page 6, the Total Sharable Revenue is Kshs1,242,700,000,000---
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Hon. Senators, what Sen. Wetangula and Sen. Muthama may have pinpointed is not mischief of the Opposition. These are facts. Listen and let us determine whether we can correct them.
When these figures are corrected, the money will go to Nakuru, Baringo, Kajiado, Nyandarua and everywhere. Maybe Sen. Njoroge is the only one who does not represent a county.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order! Sen. Njoroge represents a county.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, we have to correct this. On a point of order earlier on I said that we should not rubberstamp these issues. Even if it means again gazetting tomorrow as a Sitting day, because of the constitutional deadline, so that we look at these figures properly, we have to. We are leaving a whopping 79 per cent of the sharable revenue with the national Government, The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order, Sen. Wetangula! Your time is up, but we will give you five more minutes.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, we have to change this. I want to urge hon. Senators to go through this very carefully. For those, like my brother from Nakuru, I am not speaking even as the leader of this side; I am speaking as a distinguished Member of this House. We have a constitutional duty to ensure that there is proper, accurate and honest revenue division. That is why I have been disagreeing with the CRA about them trooping to the Office of the Deputy President to sit there and purport that they are sharing the revenue. If you may recall, in the Speech to the country through Parliament, even the President himself said that the Inter-Governmental Budget and Economic Council (IBEC) has already agreed on how to share revenue and they have agreed on Kshs258 billion. Then what becomes of the work of this Senate? This Senate is not a rubberstamp; we have to look at the figures. I want to encourage my colleagues behind me and even those across the Floor to bring amendments so that we achieve what we want the counties to achieve. I want to see Baringo County tarmacking roads; I want to see Kajiado County giving water to women; I want to see Nakuru County cleaning the streets; I want to see Lamu County doing something different from what the national Government has been doing. We can only do this by giving them more resources. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the challenges of corruption is not for the lack of the law; it is the lack of the will to enforce the law. If we want to lock up all corrupt people in this country, we can; but we play politics with corruption to the extent that when we are naming corrupt people, it is such a fanfare as if Jesus has come back to earth. We want to see contemporaneous audits of the money being used by both county and national Governments. We want to see every expenditure – it is called budget tracking – that when you budget for money and you start spending it, you follow it at every stage to see whether it is being spent properly or not. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I want to urge this House that if, indeed, we are going by the 33 per cent in the third column on page six, pretending that 33 per cent of what is indicated is from Kshs776 billion, we are cheating ourselves. Therefore, on that basis alone, we should reject this Bill. If we reject the Bill, it is not the end of it; it will go to mediation and figures will be looked at properly. We should not use the guise of constitutional constraints and timelines to allow counties to be shortchanged by the national Government. At the end of the day, even where the resources are being left at the centre – like the resources in the Ministry of Devolution and what we are seeing in the National Youth The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order! I beg that you listen to me carefully. The Constitution and our own Standing Orders allow us to amend a Bill that has been pushed to this House by the Lower House. There is also a time guideline that our Standing Orders give, which I may change. If you have an amendment that you think will bring value to this Bill, I am ready to bend that rule of the timeline and allow requests for amendments at the Third Reading instead of toppling off the whole thing and waiting for re-Gazettement of another sitting. Proceed, Sen. Abu Chiaba.
Asante sana, Bw. Spika wa Muda, kwa kunipa fursa hii ili niungane na wenzangu kuunga mkono Mswada huu. Mswada huu ni muhimu sana katika Seneti kwa sababu ni mojawapo ya sababu ambazo Katiba yetu imetambua kuwa lazima Seneti iwepo katika ugawaji wa pesa kwa kaunti zetu 47. Bw. Spika wa Muda, nataka kuchukua fursa hii kumpongeza Mwenyekiti wa Kamati hii na wote anaofanya kazi nao kwa kufanya kazi ngumu katika muda mfupi wa wiki mbili. Kazi hii haikuwa rahisi. Kwa furaha kubwa, naunga mkono Mswada huu kwa sababu tumeongeza pesa zaidi kwenda katika serikali zetu za kaunti ili ijulikane na watu wetu katika makaunti kwamba pesa zote zinazoshuka huko mashinani ni kwa sababu ya Maseneta na Seneti hii yote. Nataka kuchukua fursa hii kuishukuru Seneti yote kwa kukubali kwamba Lamu ni moja katika kaunti zitakazopata ufadhili wa Kshs400 za kujenga makao makuu ya kaunti. Ni furaha kubwa ya kwamba pesa za kusawazisha wale ambao ni maskini zaidi au
zitapewa serikali za kaunti badala ya kwenda kwa Wabunge. Hali kama hiyo ndio inatutia moyo. Twafaa pia tuangalie kwa uangalifu mkubwa kama kuna mahali ambapo panahitaji kurekebishwa au kuletwa amendments hapa ili tufanye kazi hiyo ya kuangalia maslahi ya kaunti zetu na pesa ziende mashinani. Kwa hayo machache, nakushukuru, Bw. Spika wa Muda, kwa kunipa fursa kama hii.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Proceed, Sen. Amos Wako.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order, Sen. Wako! There is a point of order. Have a seat. What is it, Sen. Murungi?
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I know this is a very important Bill and this is the only chance that Senators have to speak on the budget making process. However, I am worried that some of us will not have a chance to speak to this important Bill because of time constraints. Could you consider reducing our time to five minutes so that as many of us can contribute?
The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order! Be patient. Actually, you were going to be the next on the list. Be patient and you will have your five minutes. Proceed, Sen. Wako.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to speak on this important Bill. We all know that the Division of Revenue Bill is, in fact, to me, the most important Bill that this Senate passes in any given year because it relates to the distribution of income between the national and county governments. Therefore, it is a pity that we are always reduced to this; that on this most important Bill, we are given only five minutes. But on some other peripheral Bills, we can be given as much as half an hour. So, I would plead that, in future, particularly starting from next year, we do such things in such a way that we can even take three days debating this Bill and that each Senator is given adequate time.
I want to commend the Chairman of the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget. I just want to focus on one or two issues. The first issue is: What is the role of the CRA? We received a recommendation on 18th December, 2014 that was made pursuant to Article 216(1) of the Constitution. That recommendation is normally made after they have exercised their mind on it and professionally taken all the facts into account. It is an independent Commission. The intention was and it should remain an independent Commission, exercising its mandate professionally to make a recommendation to both the Senate and the national Government on what should be the sharable income. That is very important. I was very surprised to learn that they made the recommendation. The recommendation was that the equitable sharable income should be Kshs282,445,000,000. The Council of Governors wanted an equitable share of Kshs349, 605,000,000. Is it right that they should thereafter withdraw that recommendation after the various meetings have been done and now say: “We now withdraw that one and agree with this one”? I am saying so, because when they withdrew the original recommendation, then some extraneous factors have been taken into account. When they agree with what has been agreed on between the governors and the Deputy President at the Summit, then it puts undue pressure on the Senate to also agree to fall in line, although we may not agree. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, in order for us to exercise our mind, I propose that the CRA makes one recommendation and whatever discussions that go on thereafter are reflected here for us to exercise our mind on what is right for our counties. I am very surprised that on a number of issues, for example, on education, the early pre-primary education and village polytechniques, where the CRA had recommended certain figures to go to the county governments, those recommendations were removed and yet those are functions which are given to the county governments under our Constitution.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order! Hon. Senators, converse silently; we want to hear Sen. Wako.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, please, add me one or two minutes. The early childhood education and the village polytechnics are functions of the county governments. So, the CRA having recommended a figure of Kshs3.3billion to go for that particular function and thereafter listening around they agree that only Kshs0.9 billion should be given to the counties, obviously, it is inadequate. The other item is on disaster management, which is also a function under the county government. I am disappointed that after the CRA had allocated the money for county disaster management, which is a function of the county governments, they thereafter again, changed their minds and reduced that item from the amount that is attributable to them. The other item which also falls under Schedule Four is on county planning and housing. That is an amount allocated to the county governments initially for slum removal and upgrading. This is a very important function because if you go to the headquarters of most of these counties, they are not worth being called headquarters. Therefore, it becomes necessary right from the word go that the county governments should really plan properly their headquarters.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order, Sen. Wako. Sen. Murungi, you may proceed.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I want to thank you for giving me this opportunity to support this important Bill with amendments that are being proposed by the Committee. Our role as Senate has not been clearly understood by those who read Article 96(2) and (3). It is very clear that it is our real as the Senate to allocate national resources to the counties. This is what we are doing through this Bill. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, it is you who was saying that governors go around saying they have given this and that, without mentioning that. Indeed, it is the Senators who have allocated the money which the governors are using for various projects within our counties. It is not fair for governors not to mention that it is the Senator who has brought these resources that they are using in the counties. I am very happy that the Senate is now considering how it will empower itself to pass that message to the people, so that we can go around our counties and explain the role of the Senators to the people. The amount of money that we are transferring from the national Government to the counties this time, Kshs283 billion; it is a lot of money. It is our constitutional duty to make sure that the kshs283 billion being transferred to the counties is not stolen. That it is goes towards the development of our counties. It is our constitutional duty to effectively oversight these national resources that are going to the counties. I believe that through this budget process, the Senate will also be properly empowered for us to play our constitutional role as specified in Article 96. Secondly, our other institutions for over sighting these funds are the county assemblies; it has become impossible for the MCAs to oversight the governors and county executives because of insufficient exposure and lack of capacity. Indeed, the former Prime Minister once said that sometimes it is like we are sending someone carrying meat and then we send dogs after him. When the dogs get very near, he throws The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Asante, Bw. Spika wa Muda, kwa kunipa nafasi hii ili nichangie Mswada huu. Kwanza, leo ni siku kuu katika Kenya nzima. Nataka magavana na waaakilishi wa wadi kujua kwamba Maseneta ndio wanaogawa pesa. Pesa hazitoki kwa magavana. Pesa zinatoka kwa Maseneta. Sisi ndio tunaogawa pesa. Leo, nataka wanisikilize vizuri. Pesa wanazozitumia kwenda safari za ulaya na kule kwingine ni sisi ambao tunazipitisha ili kufanikisha maendeleo. Wakenya walipitisha Katiba mpya katika mwaka wa 2010 na wakasema wanataka ugatuzi kwa nia moja na sababu moja ya kuleta maendeleo. Miaka miwili tangu tuje hapa, hakuna maendeleo yanayoonekana mashinani. Hii ni aibu kubwa. Kwa hivyo, tungependa kuwaambia magava na waakilishi wa wadi kwamba pesa tunazotaka kuwaongezea leo si za kwenda safari ama kununua magari makubwa. Hizi ni pesa za kujenga kaunti ili tuwe na maendeleo. Nataka kuona barabara nzuri, watu wangu wakiwa na maji safi na hospitali zetu zikiwa na madawa na vifaa vingine. Hivyo ndivyo tutakapofurahia ugatuzi. Kwa sasa, wengi tunalia. Wanaochomoa vitambi wakijidai wao ndio wanaofanya kazi bora katika Serikali za kaunti lakini mwananchi analia. Magavana 13 wanasemekana wako katika orodha ya wale waliopora pesa za wananchi. Leo, tunawaongezea pesa lakini tunataka kuwaonya kwamba pesa hizo ni za maendeleo na si kutumika kununua magari au kwenda ulaya ama kuwahonga wapinzani wao. Leo nataka kazi ya Seneta ijulikane. Nitaenda kwetu nisema kufikia leo, nimepeleka Kshs8 billion lakini hakuna chochote kinachoonekana pale mtaani kwa sababu waakilishi wa wadi na magavana wanaenda safari na kutumia pesa vibaya. Pesa tunazowaongezea leo zinafaa kuonyesha ugatuzi. Zile pesa ambazo tunapewa za uchunguzi Kshs1 billion na kuona pesa zimetekelezwa zitatufaa sana. Tutaleta ripoti hapa kuonyesha pesa ambazo zimetumiwa vibaya. Wakizitumia pesa vibaya, tutaleta Hoja hapa ya kuwaondoa The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker Sir for the opportunity. I want to take this opportunity to thank Members of the Committee for a good work done. We are considering a very important Bill whose intention is to provide for equitable division of revenue between the two levels of Government. This is a Bill whose intention is to ensure continuation of service delivery by providing the funds required. The amount proposed in this Bill to go to counties is Kshs258,008,000,000, sharable revenue. You will recall that is the figure that this Senate recommended, two years ago, as being sufficient to cover the functions of counties. I do not think that there is equitable division in this respect. Only an amount of Kshs258,008,000,000 compared to a sharable revenue of Kshs1.25 trillion. In my opinion, the proposed share to the counties has fallen far short of expectations and is not adequate to meet the increasing need at the counties. However, once again, for the third year running, there is a significant difference between what is contained in the Bill and what the CRA has recommended. I cannot understand why that should be the case. We have established the CRA specifically to research. We have equipped them to make sure that they analyze the information that they give so that they arrive at a recommendation that is acceptable by all. They are an independent institution. The rest of us, including the national executive are partisan and, therefore, cannot judge cases where they themselves are involved. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, nevertheless, I want to support the various amendments proposed by the Chairman of the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budge with respect to the emergency fund and increased funding to the Level 5 Hospitals for various reasons which have been explained here . I also want to add the issue of fuel levy which is set aside specifically for the maintenance of roads, but now we know that the function of road maintenance is shared between the counties and the national Government. This should not be a conditional The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this very important Bill. I would like to congratulate the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget for a splendid job done and all those who participated in the making of this Bill. There is one aspect which if you look at the total equitable and the conditional, it comes to Kshs291 billion. I wish we could have taken it up to Kshs300 billion. That arises because the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) in the National Assembly is not burning the midnight oil. They should burn candles at both ends so that we should be talking of the 2013/2014 accounts. By doing so, we would be doing service to our counties. The problem we are having at the counties is basically lack of funds. We have counties which cannot make ends meet let alone look for money for development. If we had used the 2013/2014 financial accounts, we would have found a way of increasing the funds to the counties. Our job as guardians and protectors of the counties has to be appreciated. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I would like to congratulate the Committee for what they have done to the Level 5 Hospitals; the increase of funding to Kshs1.563 billion and the proposed allocation for salary awards by Kshs1.8 billion and the Kshs4.4 billion allocated towards the establishment of the county emergency fund. This is highly critical. In Baringo County, we have been having issues with regard to insecurity. We have had situations where we have over 30 schools being shut down because of insecurity and yet the governor does not have funds to reopen them. With the funds which the Committee has allocated them, it will give us a good opportunity to get everybody to go back to school. Baringo County and Kitui counties have been fighting to get the Equalization Fund. I can see from the Bill that there is some good news to this end. The money which has been reallocated like the Kshs2.5 billion from the national irrigation project was well thought out because griculture has been devolved. Nowadays, you wonder why Kilimo House has six floors of people working for the agricultural department when they should have been devolved to the county level. We hope that next year, we shall have hit the Kshs300 billion mark which we will send down to the counties. With those few remarks, I beg to support.
Asante sana, Bw. Spika wa Muda, kwa kunipatia nafasi hii ili nichangie Mswada huu. Ninataka kupongeza Kamati ya Fedha kwa sababu wamefanya kazi nzuri kwa kuleta Mswada huu. Mimi ninaunga mkono huu Mswada wa ugawanyaji wa pesa wa 2015. Leo tunaupitisha Mswada huu kwa maunfaa ya serikali zetu za kaunti na si kwa manufaa yetu binafsi; bali ni kwa wananchi wa Kenya. Kwa hivyo, hivi leo inafaa wananchi watambue kazi ya Seneta.Tukipitisha pesa kwenda mashinani, hatutaki zitumiwe vibaya kwa njia yoyote ambayo haitaleta maendeleo kwa wananchi wa Kenya. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. Considering that this is one of the most important Bills for this Senate, and I believe each and every Member wants to speak to it, including me. However, at the time, I request that the Mover be called upon to reply and then we could make our contributions during the Committee of the Whole.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): If you look at Standing Order No.29, it states that this Bill should be discussed until it is concluded. However, at times knowing the weaknesses of the House, we need the prerequisite numbers to vote. Therefore, I am actually convinced by Sen. Mositet that, that is necessary. I will allow one Member from either side of the House and thereafter call upon the Mover to reply.
On a point of of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): If you want to discuss matters already ruled by the Speaker, then you are out of order. Did you hear me correctly?
Hoja ya nidhamu, Bw. Spika wa Muda. Sisi tunawakilisha Wakenya walio wengi huko mashinani. Leo ni siku muhimu na ni lazima kila mmoja wetu apate nafasi ya kutosha ili tuweze kuangazia yaliyomo katika Kenya.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. This is a very important day. Some Members have already had the opportunity to talk. We all represent each individual 47 counties. Those who wish to talk, because we came to talk and contribute, should be given the opportunity.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): I have heard that. Yes, Sen. (Dr.) Kuti.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I had seen the list. If it will be followed without overruling what you said, then I will be the next.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order, the decision on who speaks is bestowed upon the Speaker. So, whatever list you looked at does not matter. Let us listen to Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. Before he comes, I will make this ruling. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I will not repeat what everybody else has said. However, once again, we find ourselves in another predicament where we are arguing about the provisions of the Constitution on what is sharable revenue under Article 202 on revenue raised nationally and revenue that is supposed to be divided between county governments and the national Government under Article 203(2) and (3). Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, once again, I repeat what I said last year. We must insist to have audited accounts that are up to date so that we do not end up in the sort of argument that I have seen this afternoon about revenue collected nationally and revenue that is supposed to be divided under the Constitution. The last audited accounts talk about of Kshs776 billion. Even if we do not like it, we cannot violate the Constitution because that is what it says. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, in my view – I have said this before – this time round I am happy that the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget has finally disagreed with the proposals with the CRA. The CRA attempted to side-step our Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget in terms of explaining to us one by one why they agreed to the figure of Kshs258 billion, but not a higher figure. The reason I say so is because under Article 218, the recommendations that my Chairman; Sen. Wako was referring to, the figures that are contained and were issued in December, 2014, should have come to us so that we negotiate with them in order to arrive at the figures that we have amended hence, the reason I support the amendment to increase the Emergency Fund. During debate in the last Division of Revenue Bill, I was not in this Chamber. I was in Makueni attending the burial of 28 people who died out of alcohol poisoning. The national Government promised to pay the victims’ families, but it did not. That is the reason I support the proposal by the Committee that we return the allocation of Kshs4.4 billion proposed by the CRA. Secondly, Sen. Murkomen is one of the Members who have defended and, in fact, requested this House to look at the question of emoluments of county assemblies yet the CRA and governors have gone ahead to agree to a reduction. That is the reason I support the amendment to increase the allocation. With regard to Level 5 Hospitals, as far as I and the Committee are concerned, this is not negotiable. On the leasing of equipment Kshs4.5 billion, we have recommended that this House looks at the figure so that the question of value for money - where the Government proposes to lease, but in the end result, it will be much better to purchase the equipment outright - be looked into so that we get value for money. Lastly, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, we have proposed that there should be an amendment to the Public Financial Management (PFM) Act so that the sort of rush you have seen this week where we spend sleepless nights crossing all over to recommend, The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I rise to support the Division of Revenue Bill with the amendments proposed by the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, quick provisions of the Constitution, just like my learned colleague, Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. had referred to, make it very clear in Article 203 that it must be above 15 per cent of the last audited accounts. The last audited accounts provide for us Kshs776 billion. In the calculation, it comes to 33 per cent. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I have said this and I repeat; we must not, as a Senate and as a country, get obsessed with the percentage although the Constitution says that it must be at least 15 per cent. More focus should go to costing of functions; that resources shall facilitate functions being performed by counties. We note, oblivious to the fact that the national Government functions are supposed to be funded, that the national Government functions also support what is being done in the counties. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, last week, all of us here debated about putting more money and investing in the security sector. Security is a national Government’s function. We cannot rob the national Government of security functions to fund trips of County Executive Committee (CEC) members to Kuala Lumpur and Jerusalem to see where Jesus was born. So, we must always remember that it is important for us to measure--- We, as a Senate, are interested in the money that goes to the national Government and county governments to facilitate counties to function to ensure that the national and county governments perform their functions. Secondly, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, there is additional money for emergency. In the absence of proper definition of what an “Emergency” is--- The Constitution provides that disaster management is a concurrent function to be performed by both the national and County Governments. There must be a clear mechanism of what amounts to a disaster and an emergency. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, there are people who have been drinking. You try to educate them to avoid drinking, but they do not stop. If people die as a result of what we would say the law of volenti non-fit injuria ; it is them who have made the decision. We cannot call that an emergency. In law, that is volenti non-fit injuria .
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order, may I give you free advice as a medical doctor.
As long as my time is held, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I will receive your advice.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Alcohol poisoning is a medical emergency.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. However, alcohol poisoning is not a national disaster. I just wanted to respond to Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr., that there are things that will not fit within the definition of an emergency. I may have a different opinion from another person but we must have a legal framework that gives a The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Hon. Senators, I have been thinking about the points of order that were raised by Sen. Mositet, Sen. (Dr.) Kuti and Sen. Ndiema. I am tied by the Standing Orders when a Member rises. I want to look at Standing Order No.98.These Standing Orders were made by you and they govern me. I will, therefore, put the Question.
We are now going to do two minutes each. Who was on the Floor? Sen. Ndiema.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, for allowing me to contribute. This is a very important Bill and that is why I was very anxious to contribute. This is a day that we are deciding how much money goes to the counties and how much remains in the national Government. It is our duty to protect and defend our counties. I want to thank the Committee for recommending that we increase the funds to the counties. I also want to congratulate the Kenya Revenue Authority (KRA) for doing a good job. I also want to question the ability of those who are dealing with audit because they have denied counties the resources. When we get reports from the Director of Budget on the performance of counties on revenue, it is worrying. I would urge the same Committee to look at what is ailing the counties in terms of revenue collection. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I support the proposal to increase funds for salaries, emergencies and Level 5 hospitals. But I want to caution and request my colleagues that the savings or areas to be reduced should not be as suggested. It has been suggested that The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order! Your time is up.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. Let me also take this opportunity to thank the Committee for the work that it has done on this Division of Revenue Bill. I will only raise one point concerning the funds which have been allocated to the National Youth Service (NYS). I think the funds which were allocated to the NYS, which we are going to do proper legislation for, are a blessing for this country because a week ago, we lost many Kenyans. I think we lost the majority of them because they lacked survival tactics. I am sure that every Senator knows that we lost 142 students. If these students had skills, which can be acquired through the NYS training, many of them would have been saved. If those four skinny people had come to the dormitory I was in with other young men, during those years, they would hardly kill ten people. We had the survival skills and would be able to defend ourselves. Through the NYS funds, I think the nation will be able to defend itself through the skills that will be acquired. If these funds are used carefully, we are going to awake this nation which at the moment is fairly careless. If a small bomb explodes here in Nairobi, you will see a lot of people congregating at the scene, hence putting themselves in real danger. They do so because they are not conscious of survival tactics. Therefore, the fact that these funds are there is welcome. I wish they could be increased. I hope that, as Senators, we are going to discuss fully how we can give NYS training to everybody who is 17 years old, before they can get identity cards. We know that this kind of training happens in countries like Israel---
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Your time is up.
Asante sana, Bw. Spika wa Muda, kwa kunipa fursa hii. Leo ni siku muhimu katika taifa letu ambayo inaangaziwa katika kila sehemu ya nchi. Ninaunga mkono Mswada huu kuhusu mgawo wa mapato kwa kaunti zetu. Hata hivyo ningependa kusisitiza kwamba pesa ambazo zinatengewa kaunti zetu hazipaswi kwenda kwa mifuko ya magavana au vijana ambao wameajiriwa katika kaunti hizo. Bw. Spika wa Muda, pesa tunazozungumzia leo hii zinatokana na sisi kupigana miereka na Serikali kuu.
Yatakikana pesa hizi zikipatikana zitumiwe kwa usawa. Pesa hizi hazikutolewa ili ziende kununua helicopter ya kumpeleka Governor Israel, America au The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Ndio! Waambie! Toboa maneno!
Kila gavana yuko na helicopter, kulingana---
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order!
Order! Order! Order!
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Proceed, Sen. (Dr.) Kuti.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. It is a very disappointing thing that we debate this very important Bill in such a hurry to the point that we scramble for minutes and our thoughts are now more on the time allocated than on the issues in the documents.
It is a shame because this is a very important document and we need to be given adequate time to ventilate and contribute to it. But the way it is now, it is such that after I finish making this statement, my time will be over. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, what I wanted to say in this little time I have been given is that everything is about good timing. When we were doing the budget policy statement, we were given less than 24 hours to contribute to that very important document. Today, we are called upon, in less than four or five hours, to debate and pass this Bill. This beats the whole purpose for which we have actually been elected. If you look at Article 96, that is actually the prime reason why we are in this House. So, it is a shame and we really need to look at this matter and revise this system so that priority agenda like this one should be given more time. I support the provision for emergency funds, and I would have said much on this issue but we have to move on. On the issue of leasing equipment as the Chairperson of the Committee on Health, I have sat with the Cabinet Secretary (CS) for health, Mr. Macharia, and I am privy to the---
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order! Order! I want you to listen to me carefully. The Members in the House now, in my own recollection, are usually the Members who are in this House for most debates. That goes without saying. The unfortunate situation we have today – I want you to listen and let us not over hammer this point to make it so prominent in the HANSARD – this Bill must be passed by a certain number of delegations. That is the dilemma and that is why your Speaker is trying to guide you on this very important issue. However, you have the mandate because any of you may move a Motion, which I will accept, of increasing the number of minutes The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, thank you for giving me this opportunity. I support this Bill with amendments by the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget. From the Bill, you can see that the Commission on Revenue Allocation (CRA) had proposed Kshs282 billion for the counties while we have the Division on Revenue Bill indicating Kshs258 billion. The CRA has been doing some good work but they should have come to us, we discuss and support them on this, so that they are not arm-twisted the way it is always done where their figures are always reduced. The shareable revenue is divided into two; the national Government Equalization Fund and the county governments. I have issues with this Equalization Fund. We have been having it in the previous budgets but it has never been availed to the affected counties for remedying the marginalization which it is intended for. Up to now, we have not seen it being used, so it is better for the concerned bodies to move first and have this Equalization Fund actualized. It is better if it is done according to Article 204 (3) (b) of the Constitution which states:- “The national Government may use the Equalization Fund- (b) either directly or indirectly through conditional grants to the counties in which marginalized communities exist”. It is better for the national Government to use that provision and have these funds directly disbursed to county governments. We need to have a very clear picture of how much the Equalization Fund has accumulated---
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Your time is up.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, thank you for giving me this time
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order! Proceed, Sen. Hassan.
Asante, Bw. Spika wa Muda, kwa kunipa fursa hii ya kuchangia Mswada huu na Ripoti hii ya Kamati ya Finance, Commerce and Budget. Mengi yamesemwa na wenzangu, lakini ninaunga mkono na kujishirikisha na maoni yaliyotolewa na Sen. Wetangula na Sen. Muthama. Lakini katika yote haya, nimesikia wengi wakisema kwamba tunazipeleka fedha kwa magavana. Magavana hawa hawataki kuwajibika kwa mtu yeyote. Labda sisi tuna viungo spesheli ambavyo tumepewa na Mwenyezi Mungu ambavyo vinafanya tupitishe sheria ambayo inawafanya wawajibike mbinguni peke yake. Magavana hawa hawataki kuwajibika kwa Seneti, hawataki kuwajibika kwa Tume ya Ufisadi au kwa mtu yeyote. Wanataka kupelekewa neema ili watumie. Labda wangependa tusema kwamba kwa sababu wao ni waokozi wetu, basi tunafaa kuwapa nafasi ili wasiajibike kwa njia yoyote. Mahali wametufikisha hawaamini kwamba wanaweza kuwajibika kwa mtu yeyote. Mimi ningependa kuunga mkono Mswada huu, lakini inafaa tuzingatie swala la magavana kuwajibika. Kama hawataki kuwajibika kwetu, viumbe, basi wanafaa kuwajibika kwa Mwenyezi Mungu. Watu hawa 47 wako katika tabaka lao. Wanataka kupewa pesa na kufanya kazi. Leo tunapigana hapa kuhakikisha kaunti zetu zimepata pesa. Tunapoenda katika kaunti, wanatudharau na kutufanyia mambo mengi na kutuonyesha kwamba wao ndio wafalme na wakubwa; wao ndio watawala. Kama wanataka utawala, basi waje hapa ili wapitishe kanuni za pesa. Mimi hapa na wenzangu tunajaribu ili tupate kiwango kikubwa cha pesa kuwafadhili.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this very important Bill. I would like to specifically thank the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget for realizing that Kshs4.4 billion Emergency Fund was necessary. The fact that governors said they were satisfied without it shows that what Sen. Mositet said is true; that they should ensure that before they conclude on these figures, the Senate is consulted. I would also like to thank the Committee for ensuring that the figure for Level 5 hospitals was adjusted by Kshs1.5 billion. We cannot over-emphasize the fact that there is serious under-funding for the Level 5 hospitals. Some of us are Senators from counties whose populations are very high. Therefore, it is important that Funds that the Government is setting aside are adequate.We should ensure that, indeed, patients who visit the Level 5 hospitals get the medical care that they expect. As I conclude, because of time, let me thank the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget for adjusting salaries for county executives.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Your time is up.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker. It is very unfortunate that we came all the way and we end up with only two minutes to make our contributions to this Bill. Nonetheless, I think it is a big day that we have to allocate Kshs291 billion to the counties as opposed to the small amount which went there last year. Having said that, I think we have to address the issue with regard to medical equipment. Whereas I fully support the action by the national Government to provide this equipment, I also support the leasing. I think it is a good idea. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order! Your time is up. Sen. G.G. Kariuki!
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I want to thank all the Senators for their contributions because I am a Member of the Committee that came up with this Report and that is why I would have not felt bad even if I was not going to speak. They have agreed with our proposals and we are most grateful. This Government has been in office for about two years, and I am sure that governors and MCAs have now started to realize that there are auditors who audit expenditure. I think we should not keep on crying about what the governors are doing. In this country, we have all institutions which have been empowered by law to decide for the county governments. We can pass any law provided we do not conflict with the current Constitution. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, governors have realized that without the Senate, they will be working in futility. For example, when we suggested adding them more money, one of the governors stood before us and said that he is satisfied with the allocation because he has no problem and we wished he understood the problem of the people who elected him because none of them would dare do that.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, thank you for the opportunity. I am very grateful as a Member of this Committee to all the Senators who have supported our Report. This is also a big lesson to the CRA and IBEC because they had overstepped their mandate and sought Kshs250 billion while not involving the Senate. As far as the county allocations are concerned, the Senate has the final say. I would like to urge governors to use this money in a transparent manner. This money is not meant for them to do their private businesses. Thank you.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): I call upon the Mover to reply.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I thank all the Members who have contributed to this very important Bill. I agree with most Members that it would have been much better if we had more time allocated for it. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I want to clarify on the provisions of Article 203 with regard to the percentage which some Members do not access properly. Article 203 is very specific that in terms of the percentage, the revenue should not be less than 15 per The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Before I put the Question, I order that the Division Bell be rung for five minutes.
Draw the Bar and lock the doors. Hon. Senators, we are going to go for the vote now. I have to put the Question. THAT the Division of Revenue Bill, National Assembly Bill No.11 of 2015 be read a Second Time.
Does it affect counties?
Hon. Senators, all Bills that come to the Senate are county Bills. All Bills that come to the Senate become Acts of Parliament. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Order, Senators! The results of the Division are as follows:-
The “Ayes” have it.
Order, Senators! You will recall that when I gave the Communication from the Chair, I did mention that we are here for only one business. We have dealt with Order No.3. Before we move to Order No.4, which is the Committee of the Whole, may I just remind you that we have one more very important vote to make and we must have the threshold of 24 Senators. I request that all of us are here so that we can finalize the business of today. Next Order!
Order, hon. Senators! We are in the Committee of the Whole to consider the Division of Revenue Bill and we will move as follows. We will first start by considering the Clauses that have no amendments; we will then proceed to the ones that have amendments before we go to Divisions.
Since these clauses have no amendments, there will be a Division at the end.
There is an amendment proposed by the Senate Majority Leader to be moved by the Chairperson. Proceed, Sen. Billow.
Mr. Temporary Chairperson Sir, on behalf of the Senate Majority Leader, Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki, I beg to move that the Bill be amended by deleting the Schedule and substituting therefor the following new Schedule- The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
What is the justification?
Mr. Temporary Chairperson, Sir, the reason is as we mentioned earlier; we have amended by increasing the amount of money that will go to the county governments. The equitable share has increased from Kshs258 billion to Kshs259.7 billion. The conditional allocation will increase from Ksh25.773billion to Kshs31.669 billion. We increased Kshs1.6billion to allow for additional money to help in payment of salaries and allowances as per the requirement of the Commission on Revenue Allocation (CRA) circular. We have increased the county conditional allocation by providing for the county emergency funds of Kshs4.4billion and an additional kshs1.6 billion to Level Five hospitals. That brought the total of the whole allocation of revenues to the counties to Kshs291,444,185,204 billion which represents 37 per cent.
We will go to Division at the end.
There being no amendment, we will go to Division right now.
The Bell should ring for another two minutes.
Order, hon. Senators. Take your seats so that you vote. We have three votes. The first one is on Clause 3, 4, 5 and 6. I will put the question.
We will first vote on Clause 3, 4, 5 and 6 which have no amendments then we move to the ones with amendments. We will vote for 30 seconds starting now.
On point or order, Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir. If you allow me to raise an issue about the Nairobi Delegation; the Senator for Nairobi is on record as saying that he has stepped aside – whatever that means – he said that he will not attend sessions, he is no longer a Deputy Whip and he will wait until whatever is going on is over. Can, therefore, the Nairobi Delegation have a proxy to vote for that Senator because I believe the distinguished Senator who is the Chief Whip for the Majority side is voting as a Nairobi proxy. If the voter has stepped aside, can there be a proxy?
Sen. Wetangula, where did you hear what you are alleging to have heard? Where is your evidence?
Mr. Chairman, Sir, even the Chair should take judicial notice of the happenings in the country. That is why he is not here. This is a special sitting and you have not seen him. He has said so very clearly, un- contradicted, that he has stepped aside. It may be a political gimmick but we take it for what it is.
This is a very straightforward matter. I do not wish to entertain more points of order. We are in the midst of our vote; we are going to the second vote. I only allowed interlude because Sen. G.G. Kariuki had not signed against his manual voting. The Senate is a House of record and until evidence by way of gazette notice--- as long as there is a Senator representing Nairobi County in this House, there is no legal mechanism that will determine whether somebody is out of office or not. The office of the Speaker is not aware of any provisions of law that would provide opportunity for vacancy on the senatorship for Nairobi. As long as the Senator for Nairobi is in office, there is a proxy to vote. Hon. Senators, I know the Division Bell had been rung, but there is a small procedural hitch. We have the Deputy Speaker who will take over the Chair when the House resumes but he has been locked outside. At my discretion as the Chairperson, I will allow 30 seconds for the Bell to be rung before the next Question to allow him to come in. However, the results of the first Division are as follows:-
The “Ayes” have it. I order that the Division Bell be rung for 30 seconds.
Let the Bars be drawn.
I apologise for purposes of the record. Order, hon. Senators. There will be no debate on the delegation and the senatorship of Nairobi County. I have ruled that there is a Senator for Nairobi County and there is no debate about that. Any other debate can be done outside the Senate. Whatever pronouncements that were read in the newspapers have no validity in this House. I want to correct something on the first results for the record. The results were as follows:-
Hon. Senators, the correct results are as follows:-
Point of order.
Anyone who has a point of order will have to wait. There is no point of order during voting. What I did for the Senate Minority Leader was exceptional.
I put the question that the Schedule be amended as proposed by the Senate Majority Leader. This was moved by the Chairman of the Committee.
Point of order.
Hon. Senators, I have said that there is no point of order unless you have a problem with the way the question is framed.
Mr. Temporary Chairman, there is a further amendment to the Schedule from the Senate Majority Leader that has just been approved by the Speaker. I seek your guidance on how to go about it.
Sorry, Sen. Billow. We are in Division but not in---. I will take the advice of the Speaker himself on that matter.
Can I explain, Mr. Temporary Chairman?
Point of order.
Order, Senators. I will rule accordingly. Let us maintain order.
Let me explain, Mr. Temporary Chairman. There is an amendment from the Senate Majority Leader that four county headquarters; Nyandarua, Tharaka- Nithi, Lamu and Tana River County - that do not have headquarters - be provided an additional Kshs1.6 billion for construction of county headquarters. This will bring the conditional allocation to Kshs33.2 billion and the total to Kshs293 billion.
Order, Senators. Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale.
Mr. Temporary Chairman, I appreciate the pain that the Senate Majority Leader is going through. However, you will remember that we are voting after you put the question. Since you put the question and the same amendment did not go through the first step that precedes putting the question, it means that he has been overtaken by events. Mr. Temporary Chairman, if the Deputy Speaker had known that this is the stage we had reached, he would not have approved. He approved in good faith but we have been overtaken by events. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Order, Senators. Chairman, I appreciate what you have said but unfortunately, it is the procedure. The Senate Majority Leader was here, we even waved him back when he was walking out. Unless we are provided with a procedure for handling that one, we cannot do it midway. There has to be a debate. I have to propose the Question. I am a great sympathizer of that amendment but unless you give us the rules--- Sen. (Eng.) Muriuki, I am giving you a chance to contribute.
Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I want to appeal to the House, through the Chair, that the four counties that are appealing for the support of the House---
Senator, have you finished?
You have not even listened to me.
You said you are appealing, but under which Standing Order?
It is under Standing Order No.1 where the Chair can rule that it is in order. The other Senators can also speak, but hear me first. We walked out but this amendment was already with the Clerk and had been approved by the Speaker. If there was inadequacy, it was not on the Mover and I would urge that you do the best you can.
Order, Sen. (Eng.) Muriuki. We are in Division and the bars have not been drawn. We have a way out for Sen. (Eng.) Muriuki, but we have not reached there yet. We will finish and at the time we are reporting to the House, it can be subject for your recommittal to the Committee for that reason and it would be the House to decide at that stage. So, you need to work with the necessary people.
Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I want to inform this House that Speaker ole Kaparo, when he was faced with a similar situation, he ruled that you cannot, during the Committee Stage, bring an amendment, which has not been the subject of debate during the Second Reading because that would be to ambush the House. In other words, I sat here throughout but I never heard anything about county headquarters. If it was stated, let me be reminded. None of these people argued.
They should have submitted during the Second Reading.
Order, Senators! Can you resume your seats and vote? Let me make it clear that for purposes of the amendment provided by Sen. (Eng.) Karue, during reporting we can provide a mechanism for the House to vote to go back to the Committee stage. That is provided for in the Standing Orders. But as at now, let us vote. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Order, Senators! The results of the Division are as follows---
I now put the question; that Clause 2, the Title and Clause 1 be part of the Bill. You have 30 seconds to vote, starting now.
The results are as follows:-
The Ayes have it.
to) I call upon the Mover to move.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir.
What is it Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, you have been very agitated for too long. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, I am not agitated, for the record, I just want to bring to the attention of the House that while the House was in Session the Chair was making calls on his cell phone. If we want to be taken seriously as a Senate and if the Chair wants to call for order in this House, how will he call for order when he is disorderly? Mr. Temporary Chairman, Sir, we would like you to rule.
Order Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale. The Mover should now move. Open the door and draw the Bar. Proceed, Sen. Billow. DIVISION OF REVENUE BILL (NATIONAL ASSEMBLY BILL NO.11 OF 2015)
Mr. Chairman, I beg to move that the Committee do report to the Senate its consideration of the Division of Revenue Bill (National Assembly Bill No.11 of 2015) and its approval thereof with amendments.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of the Whole has considered the Division of Revenue Bill(National Assembly No.11of 2015) and its approval thereof with amendments.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the House doth agree with the Committee in the said Report.
You should move that the Motin be amended by inserting the following words at the end thereof- Subject to the recommital of the Schedule to the committee.
Order, I am in control of the House. I do not think that it is fair that we address the Chairman that aggressively. Mr. Chairman, you were moving that the House doth agree with the Committee on the said Report.
Seconded. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to support. At the same time, I beg to move: THAT,t the Motion be amended by inserting the following words at the end thereof- “subject to the recommital of the schedule to the committee of the whole.” This amendment relates to the debate and discussion we have just had here. For all intents and purposes, the only argument I have heard from my senior, Sen. Amos Wako, is about a past decision, a past speaker, about ambush. The issue of the counties where headquarters do not have any facilities at all; where county assemblies are operating from tents; where the Governor is operating from a prefab---. This issue was before this Senate last year. It is something that is well known countrywide. We are not saying that every other county has perfect headquarters but, at least, in most counties, there are some structures to house the governor and the county assemblies; the former local authority premises. I am pleading with my colleagues, hon. Senators, to kindly help these four counties; Tana River, Lamu, Nyandarua and Tharaka-Nithi. I am begging so that an amount of about Kshs400 million is not too much. I am begging once again that if we intend to give some dignity of Government, indeed, in these counties, that we approve these amendments. I beg to move.
Hon. Senators, you understand why it is becoming a little bit complicated, but I am sure you are going to bear with me because on the second amendment, the Committee of the Whole decided what it has decided and it has been moved by the Senate Majority Leader. I am now going to propose a Question which is that the Senate Majority Leader begs to move that the Motion be amended by inserting the following words at the end thereof “subject to the re-committal of the Schedule to the Committee of the Whole”. This is an unusual procedure because the Chairman of the Committee of the Whole ruled. What it means is that you are going to debate whether or not it should be re- committed to the Committee of the Whole. This Motion does not need to be seconded.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Please, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, let us try and follow the procedure. I am certain we are going to finalize this sooner than later. Let us not skip any of the steps because the record will show that we skipped certain steps in the procedure.
Thank you Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I support this amendment. In doing so, allow me to bring the House to the status that some of the counties like Nyandarua find themselves in. Whereas today we are going to send a reasonable amount of money - much better than last year - to the counties, some counties, due to historical reasons, found themselves in situations that they are unable to operate because of not having premises from where to operate. When devolution came, the counties were expected to inherit units which were former offices or premises that belonged to the defunct local authorities; the municipal councils and the county councils. To some extent they even inherited offices of the former provincial administration. What happened is that counties like Nyandarua did not inherit any of those because the historical circumstances were that during era of the provincial administration, for one reason or the other, the Government had established the headquarters of the district in another county. When the counties were started, we found ourselves having to vacate from Nyahuru which is in Laikipia County to a shopping centre in Ol Kalou. The end result of that is that if you attempt to build the headquarters from the funds ordinarily allocated to a county through the formula or the Bill, that county, be it Nyandarua, Tharaka-Nithi, Tana River or Lamu County would then be using funds which are supposed to be for development; what other counties are doing with roads, water and so on. My appeal to the House is that we should help the four counties. At the moment, our county assembly operates from a church. The Governor rented space in the shopping center above some shops. The end result is that even some services like water, sewerage and so on--- We do not have our county headquarters. Even the investors who would otherwise come to our county will not come to a place where---. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg and appeal to Members to support the small amendment so that we include a small amount to help the four counties to at least be like other counties. With that, we can move on as one nation.
I do not know how long you want us to debate this particular issue. The originator of this amendment has taken a very short time. I will give each of you two minutes, so that we can be done with this. Sen. Wako.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this problem has been a subject of a Motion passed by this House. When we passed that Motion, the idea was that most of county governments would inherit property of the former provincial administrations. Now, an amendment has been made and passed to state that all properties of the former provincial administrations remain the property of the national government, with a consequence that all counties are in a similar position, but in varying degrees. It appears to me that this is an issue which should be looked into thoroughly. It may very well be that particular counties will get more allocations, while others may get fewer allocations. With that amendment to the legislation, every county including Busia County is suffering. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I object.
Thank you Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Hon. Senators, with all due respect, I know that the amendment has come late. However, I happen to have visited The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Order, Members. I request that you allow us to listen to each other particularly because you are given two minutes only.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, what I saw was not good. For example, the Governor’s office was rented on top of a bar. In fact, what the hon. Senator has said about the county assembly being in a church compound is true. That is what I saw and believe that they still operate from there. So, whatever they are asking, even though it is quite late, it is upon this honourable House to see that each and every county functions properly. If we can, at least, through any amendment, assist the four counties, I do not see any harm in that. Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to support that.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, with all due respect, I rise to oppose. The reason is that the former President, hon. Kibaki and the former Prime Minister, hon. Raila, actually designed a model county assembly and a model county headquarters for the governor. At that time, it was not clear what we would do for the provincial administration. But, as soon as the Jubilee Government came to power, it brought back the provincial administration that was to be done away with. Counties that had hoped that those structures would be inherited are not different from what is obtaining in Tana River and the other three counties. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have physically gone to Homa Bay, Siaya, Taita Taveta headquarters and many other and actually the governors are operating from makeshift structures. In the other counties, there was the start off fund of Kshs62 million through the Transition Authority (TA), some counties decided to use that money to refurbish the would-be headquarters. All counties require money and the next financial year, let us agree as the Senate and vote money for all the 47 counties. I oppose.
Sen. Abu Chiaba.
Asante sana, Bw. Naibu Spika, kwa kunipa nafasi hii na mimi katika sauti ya kuomba kwa marafiki zangu kama Sen. Juma Boy Juma ambao walikuwa na bahati ya siku za nyuma, kwamba Kaunti ya Lamu ni ile imekuwa marginalized kwa miaka yote. Governor hana mahali pa kukaa na kwa sasa amekodesha mahali. Mimi niko na ushahidi kamili. Nimeenda na Kamati ya Energy ikiongozwa na Sen. Moi, tulimtembelea governor akiwa na sitting room, room moja, na juu ni mahali analala. Jambo la kusikitisha ni county assembly . County assembly ni nyumba ya akina mama ambao ni maskini. Hivi sasa wametoa ilani kwa county assembly waondoke. Kwa hivyo msiangalie kwamba siku zilizopita watu wamejenga upande wao. Sisi ambao hatukuwa na uwezo tusaidiane. Bw. Naibu Spika, Kaunti ya Tana River, mnajua vile ilivyo, watu wakienda kule wanasema hii si Kenya. Kwa hivyo tunaomba kwa unyenyekevu hizi kaunti nne na mimi najua kwamba rafiki yangu, Sen. Wetangula, atapiga kura kuniunga mkono, nitamtangaza The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Two minutes only.
Bw. Naibu Spika, nipe nafasi niseme haya. Kila mtu akianza kulia, wengine wako na sauti kubwa kuliko wengine. Lakini sio kwamba wengine hawana uchungu. Wengine hulia kimoyomoyo, lakini wote huwa wanalia. Wote tuko na shida hiyo. Katika Kaunti ya Migori, tunakodesha nyumba. Naibu governor alifukuzwa kutoka kwa ofisi ya serikali kwa sababu ni hiyo serikali ya Jubilee imekata kuonga Katiba yasema nini kwamba tuwe na serikali moja mashinani. Wamesema kwamba lazima serikali za provincial administration ziwepo. Basi mle hayo machungu. Isingekuwa hivyo basi tungewawia radhi na kuwapa nafasi hawa wenzetu wapate wanayoomba. Wote tuko kwa kikapu hicho na yafaa tuwe na Mswada mpya kwamba makao makuu yajengwe. Tupitishe hilo ili sisi wote tupate bahati. Lakini vile ilivyo, watu wane wanaomba na sisi wengine mnataka kutuangusha kura twende nyumbani. Hatuwezi kukubali nzi akidoea na kutumbukia ndani ya mchuzi wetu. Nakataa katakata!
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Am I in order, seeing the mood of the House, under Standing Order No.98, to call for the Mover to reply so that we can vote.
Order! I hear you, but I will allow a few more. You can make that application after we have heard a few more. Sen. Bule.
Asante, Bw. Naibu Spika kwa kunipa fursa hii. Eneo la Tana River lilikuwa limesahulika kwa miaka nyingi. Lakini leo wakati kuna pendekezo la Tana River kusaidiwa, je, kwa nini sasa Wakenya wasiwe na huruma kwetu? Naomba Maseneta wenzangu waangalie masilahi ya wengine. Sala wa Bwana inasema: “Mtakie mwenzako lile unalojitakia nafsi yako.” Wengine wamebarikiwa na maendeleo. Je, ukiamua leo kwamba sisi pia tujengewe nyumba kisha tujenge yako kesho, kuna shida? Nawaomba wenzangu kwamba mimi ni mmoja wenu. Naomba tupewe pesa hizo leo ili mpate kura yangu. Asante.
Who is Temporary 4? You have spoken already. Please, withdraw your request. Like one of you said, maybe this is one of the most important days for the Senate, because we are making an extremely important decision on the division of revenue and matters appertaining thereto. It is 8.30 p.m. but we will finish in a short time. There are some Senators who are interested in this issue because it affects them directly. Sen. Kiraitu, you have two minutes.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, allow me to refresh the memory of the Senators. The Senator for Nyandarua, Sen. Muriuki, brought a Motion to this Senate. We The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Your time is up. Sen. Musila.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I want to confirm that I know the conditions of the headquarters of Tana River because I was a District Commissioner there. We were in Lamu the other day with Sen. Moi; I know about Nyandarua because I was the District Commissioner in Laikipia for many years, and Tharaka-Nithi are my neighbours. But having said that, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want hon. Senators to know that these conditions are not unique to those four counties. Kitui County rents a building from the Ministry of Water and, in fact, you recall that even the Governor had been evicted at one time by the former Minister for Water. All of us here need money to build headquarters and, therefore, I can only support that Motion if there is a further amendment to include all the 47 counties. Therefore, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to oppose.
Sen. G.G. Kariuki, you have two minutes.
Thank you very much, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. This matter is very clear, as it has been said by Sen. Murungi because we passed a resolution here sometimes ago and we all agreed as a House that we shall give Nyandarua and other counties some money to build their headquarters. We all agreed on that issue. But even now, the situation needs not change unless--- Not all county headquarters are up to date; but there are some counties which do not have county headquarters. Therefore, the issue of Nyandarua and Tharaka-Nithi is very disturbing and the public will not understand. Today, we are passing about Kshs291 billion to be distributed to all the counties and here they are looking for Kshs1.8 billion. That is very little money.
Order, hon. Senator! Your time is up. Sen. (Dr.) Kuti, are you on a point of order?
Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Will I be in order to ask the Mover to reply, because the mood is very clear and we cannot change the minds of the people? So, we better just end this matter.
Thank you, Sen. (Dr.) Kuti. I would agree that the position seems to be the position that people are taking, either or. In any case, most of you have now sought the Floor. So, can the Mover reply?
(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this matter has been with this Senate. This is now the third year, if I recall; so, it is not something that is being crafted now by anybody or imagined. These counties have consistently pleaded with this House because this is the House of equalization and the case has been made. I do not think there is need to waste any time, trying to regurgitate the very compelling reasons that have been given for these four cases. Secondly, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, let me make my last plea to honourable Senators. I plead with you, once more as House of equity and equalization, to approve the request for Nyandarua, Tharaka-Nithi, Tana River and Lamu to put up a modest place with the belief that going forward, we will require a comprehensive overview of the entire country so that, going forward, we can continue to equalize the rest of the counties so that each county can have a place where the organs of its government can sit and deliberate on the issues at the local level. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move.
Hon. Senators, I will now put the Question. This issue does not affect counties, so it is going to be an “aye” or “nay” vote.
What about the original question on the report of the Committee?
That is the one I will deal with further on. I will put the Question, which is that, the House do agree with the Committee in the said Report. You would argue that it affects counties but this is intercessory, so it The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Sen. Wetangula, I am on my feet. You know you are not supposed to interrupt the Speaker when he is on his feet but I would like us to move on this together so that we understand each other. There is a Motion because the Chairman of the Committee begged to move that the House do agree with the Committee on the said Report. That is what we are dealing with. I proposed the Question that the House do agree with the Committee on the same Report. Then there is the debate on this issue.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Order! That is the point at which we are now because we are going to debate or vote on the Motion that we adopt the Report of the Committee. Are we together so far? That is the point at which we are at the moment.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I know we are all fatigued but I am concerned that we seem to be losing out on the important issue of procedure. The procedure is, for a Motion to be debated, there must be Notice of Motion given. I am not challenging what has happened but I just wanted us to remember that indeed, there was no Notice of Motion given for us to go ahead to do what we did.
Order Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, please sit down. I was not here when you were at the Committee Stage. The amendment that has to do with what you are debating, which was like a further amendment to the one that came from the Committee which was given earlier and which we debated and passed, then the Motion that we have been debating by the Senate Majority Leader but from Sen. (Eng.) Muriuki Karue indirectly. Now, that is what you debated. You debated on an amendment not a Notice of Motion. I do not agree that a Notice of Motion ought to have been given because that time we were at the Committee Stage. I got a Report from the Committee that there was a Motion to re-commit that specific aspect of it again to the Committee of the Whole. That is the point at which we are.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, would I be in order to request Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale to read Standing Order No.174 (2), it will answer him.
If you allow me, hon. Senators, as pertains to what we have been dealing with, we have done it procedurally. Since the recommital has been defeated, we will go back to the Report that was made to the Speaker on the decision of the Committee of the Whole. That is the position we are at The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I propose that the Division of Revenue Bill be now read a Third Time.
Who is seconding you?
Thank you Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. This is now time for real debate. Now that we are passing this Bill, I want to urge Senators, particularly the oversight committee chaired by Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale and whose Vice Chairperson is Sen. Hassan, that the level of preferage, theft, corruption – we shall not tire in saying this – is very high. Two weeks ago, I met all committees from my county assembly.
Who wants to listen to him?
Sen. Murkomen, you may appear very clever but you have a duty to listen.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Did you hear Sen. Murkomen asking; who wants to listen to him?” That kind of behavior---
I proposed the question. Therefore, the floor is open for debate. As I told you when I communicated to you earlier, you can go on until midnight. The only thing you cannot do is to go beyond midnight.
We gazetted this day so that we are here to debate.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. We do agree that this was a Special Sitting and, indeed, Members are entitled to debate, but we are now at the Third Reading Stage and the debate at this stage should not be like the debate on the Second Reading. We should just make one or two comments and sit down. We are begging the Senate Leader of Minority to respect the traditions of the House and not debate as if it is on the Second Reading. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Sen. Wetangula, I will allow you to finish, but you have noted the mood of the House.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I was not even going to take more than three minutes. I do not know why there is this impatience. Let not our cry for accountability be a ritual. We must make the governors accountable. Our Committee of oversight must liaise with the oversight committees at the counties and find a way of telling them to track the budgets that are implemented so that thefts are stopped. I finish by advising young Murkomen that as you grow up you will realize the value of listening to others because your right to speak must be equal to your duty to listen to others. You may be too clever by half, but you will find that it does not work.
Order hon. Senators. Sen. Murkomen, you are in the Speaker’s Panel and so let us agree that we must follow procedure. I have only one more request from the Floor and I am going to allow Sen. (Dr.) Kuti one minute and then I will put the Question.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, personally I very disappointed for the fact that we were not given enough time to ventilate on this Bill. I hope next year we shall have ample time to debate and ventilate on this matter. ( The Division Bell was rung)
Could the Bars be drawn and the Doors closed?
Hon. Senators, could you log in and vote? This is the final vote for the day. You have one minute to vote. Any Senator who wishes to be assisted can proceed to the Clerk’s Desk.
Sen. Billow, Mandera County; Sen. Boy Juma Boy, Kwale County; Sen. Bule, Tana River County; Sen. Chiaba, Lamu County; Sen. Elachi, Nairobi County; Sen. G.G. Kariuki, Laikipia County; Sen. Hargura, Marsabit County; Sen. Kagwe, Nyeri County; Sen. Kembi-Gitura, Murang’a County; Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, Kakamega County; Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki, Tharaka-Nithi County; Sen. (Dr.) Kuti, Isiolo County; Sen. (Prof.) Lesan, Bomet County; Sen. M. Kajwang’, Homa Bay County; Sen. (Dr.) Machage, Migori County; Sen. Madzayo, Kilifi County; Sen. Moi, Baringo County; Sen. Mositet, Kajiado County; Sen. Mungai, Nakuru County; Sen. (Eng.) Muriuki, Nyandarua County; Sen. Murkomen, Elgeyo-Marakwet County; Sen. Murungi, Meru County; Sen. Musila, Kitui County; Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr., Makueni County; Sen. Mwakulegwa, Taita- Taveta County; Sen. Ndiema, Trans Nzoia County; Sen. Ntutu, Narok County; Sen. Obure, Kisii County; Sen. Okong’o, Nyamira County; Sen. Wako, Busia County; and, Sen. Wetangula, Bungoma County.
Hon. Senators, the results are as follows:-
Hon. Senators, we have come to the end of business this afternoon and tonight. Therefore, the House shall stand adjourned until Tuesday, 28th April, 2015, at 2.30 p.m. The Senate rose at 9.00 p.m. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.