Hon. Senators, I have a Message from the National Assembly to the Senate on the subject of the Public Audit Bill (National Assembly Bill No.38 of 2014) which was published in the Kenya Gazette supplement No.162 of 8th December, 2014, as a Bill originating from the National Assembly to provide inta alia for the functions and the powers of the Auditor-General in accordance with Article 226 of the Constitution which was passed on 2nd April, 2015. Whereas the Bill, as passed by the National Assembly, concerns county governments in terms of Article 110 of the Constitution, therefore, the National Assembly seeks the concurrence of the Senate on the said Bill, in accordance with the provisions of Article 110(4) of the Constitution and Standing Order No.142 of the National Assembly Standing Orders.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Whereas we have religiously been giving our concurrence to Bills like the one you have just read, could you also clarify what has happened to our Message which we took there last year in respect of the amendment Bill which was passed in this House on the Political Parties Act, that was intended to change the sharing of the political parties funds? I am reliably informed by the Senate Minority Leader that there are attempts to introduce a similar Bill.
Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, first, you must appreciate that substantial progress has been made in terms of Article 110. I remember before we went on recess, you raised the matter on whether concurrence had been sought on the Public Audit Bill (National Assembly Bill No.38 of 2014) and I confirmed that it had not been sought. Under those circumstances, we said our job usually is to mitigate and not to apportion blame now that it is here. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I stand on a matter that has given me a lot of concern. This is in relation to introduction of Bills as captured in Standing Order No.117. In December last year, I made a proposal of a Bill titled The Kenya National Examinations Council (Amendment) Bill. I forwarded this proposed legislation to your office. I understood that through the hand of the Speaker, the relevant Committee, which is the Committee on Education, was given this proposed legislation in order to work on it. Standing Order No. 117(3) states as follows:- “Upon request of the comments of the Clerk under paragraph (2), the Speaker shall- (a) in respect of a legislative proposal for which no Committee is in charge, refer the legislative proposal to the relevant Committee for prepublication scrutiny and comments and the Committee shall submit its comments to the Speaker within fourteen days.” The Speaker’s letter was dated 19th December, 2014. Today we we are almost at the end of April, 2015. As of today, I have not seen the Bill. I understand it is still with that Committee, many months after 14 days expired. My concern is that, if we move on at this rate where proposed Bills take six months to be published, then, we are not doing our job properly. Therefore, I plead with the Chair to get into this matter and make the Committee that is responsible to deal with this matter. Alternatively, my Bill can be published since the 14 days ended in December, 2014.
Indeed, Sen. Musila the Chair cannot agree with you more. We have had the occasion to remind Committees not to overstay with Bills. Before we went on recess, we went further to give notices. Failure to do so, we will proceed. So, we only need to verify the facts that you have established. If those timelines have been achieved, I assure you that your Bill will be published irrespective of what the Committee is doing with it.
What is it, Sen. Karaba?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, as much as you would agree with the procedure of getting such letters from other Members of the Senate, there are times when we do not even get those letters on time. Like what Sen. Musila is---
Which letters? The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, he is talking about a letter which is supposed to have been received by the Chairman. I am the Chairman of that Committee, but I have not received it. I only “hijacked” it from him when I saw him reading it.
I have not received that letter officially. Therefore, I wonder whether it is the fault of the Chair, the Clerk or the system.
Sen. Karaba, you cannot be “hijacking” things from your colleagues. You need to be generous to your Member that he actually offered this copy to you, which you need to appreciate.
Order Senator! Secondly, your office and my office are not very far apart. I am sure those letters must have reached you. So, search your office and see if that letter is relying somewhere. More fundamentally, the Standing Orders already provide on what should be done. They are enough for you to prosecute the business that was brought to you through the Floor of this House with the requisite deadlines of December, 2014, that you had been given. A letter was just another luxury to remind you that you have overstayed on your mandate. So, whether you grabbed it or not, it is really immaterial. If I were you, I would not even raise that matter for now. As I said, the Bill will be published. It is up to you now when it comes back to you to look at it and use the Floor to make the amendments that you wish to, so that the process does not stall. Proceed, Sen. Wetangula. PLANS TO OPEN MORE CONSULATES IN USA TO SERVE AS POLLING CENTRES
Mr. Speaker, Sir. I wish to request for a Statement from the Standing Committee on Legal Affairs and Human Rights regarding the Government’s plan to open more consulates in the United States of America (USA), which according to the Cabinet Secretary (CS), Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, will be used as polling centres by Kenyans living in the USA during the 2017 General Elections. In the Statement, the Chairperson should clarify:- (a) The role of the Executive in setting up polling stations. (b) Whether the Cabinet Secretary, Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, has set up a task force on this matter which is not within the Ministry’s mandate. (c) Whether the Independent Electoral and Boundaries Commission (IEBC) was consulted in the plans to set up these polling stations. (d) Why this would be confined only to the USA yet there are many Kenyans residing in other countries? The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Where is the Chairperson? What is it, Sen. Ong’era?
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Further to that question I would also like to know the survey data that they have set up. On what basis and criteria are they doing it in getting the diaspora data base that has been set up?
What is your point of order, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, further to that question, I would like the Chairperson to clarify the following: Now that it is evident that the Executive is interested in the registration of voters and that they are actively participating in it, could he clarify whether this is the reason the continuous registration of voters, as provided for under the Constitution, is apparently taking place only in pro-Government areas? In the Opposition areas, we only hear about it, but we do not see the Biometric Voter Registration (BVR) kits. We do not know where this registration is taking place. Could he clarify?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, on behalf of the Attorney General Emeritus and the Chairperson of the Committee on Legal Affairs and Human Rights, Sen. Wako, I undertake to forward this information to him.
Order! I know that you have a lot admiration for your Chairperson. However, for our purposes, deal with the job we have given you, others can follow.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will inform the Chairperson of this Statement. On his behalf, I request the Chair to give us two weeks to avail it.
It is so ordered. What is it Sen. Kembi-Gitura?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I know that we are on Statements. I do not know whether you will allow me to---
It is Statements time. ONGOING PROPERTY DEVELOPMENT AT THE JUNCTION OF LORESHO RIDGE AND KAPTAGAT ROAD
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I had sought a Statement on the construction works going on in the junction of Loresho Ridge and Kaptagat roads in Loresho. I know that the Statement is ready. In fact, there is a report. I wonder whether The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Next is the question concerning the Loresho Estate Land. Where is the Chairperson or the Vice Chairperson of the Committee? Yes, Sen. Obure.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am a Member of the Land and Natural Resources Committee. I know that we exhaustively discussed that matter and that a report is ready. With your permission, we would like to bring the answer on Thursday this week. That is the day after tomorrow.
Will that be in the form of a report?
Yes, that will be the response.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, first and foremost, I would like to thank the Committee because I have seen the work they have done regarding that matter. Since the response is in the form of a report, then they have to lay it on the Table. They did not come up with a response to a statement. I assume that they will lay it on the Table and then you can make a decision on whether or not it will be discussed as a report or whether we will have the normal interventions like we normally have in the case of statements. In the event that we have a report laid on the Table and, therefore, have discussions, I request that we have it presented on Tuesday. If it is laid on the Table on Thursday, then another date will have to be set for the matter since I will not be available. With your kind persomission, I request that we move it to Tuesday, next week, if that is convenient.
The report will be tabled on Thursday as promised by the Committee. Discussions do not ensue immediately. The issue will be discussed either on Tuesday or any other day. Sen. Kembi Gitura, the Rules and Business Committee will allocate time for that Report. That matter is fairly straight forward. ABORTED VISIT TO THE USA BY PRESIDENT UHURU KENYATTA
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Pursuant to Standing Order No.45(2)(b) of the Senate Standing Orders, I wish to seek a statement from the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on National Security and Foreign Relations regarding the aborted visit to the United States of America by His Excellency, Uhuru Kenyatta, the President of Kenya. In the statement, the Chairperson should state the following: (i) The objectives of the USA visit by His Excellency the President; (ii) indicate the scheduled itinerary of His Excellency the President during the visit; (iii) explain why the flight by His Excellency the President had to abort midair; (iv) state the number of persons in the aborted flight and steps taken to ensure their safety after the flight aborted; and, (v) indicate the benefits that the country stands to lose as a result of His Excellency the President cancelling his scheduled visit to the USA. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I would like to seek clarification on that very important matter. I would like to point out the fact that the Chairman should also tell us what action will be taken against the spokesperson of State House for having misled the country that the cancellation was as a result of security reasons on the route. A Kenya Airways, KQ310 that took off 15 minutes after the presidential jet completed its flight to Dubai. Three more Emirate flights that night also completed the same route. There was also one more Kenyan airline whose number I do not know. The second point is that the Chairperson should clarify whether the cancellation happened because there was an afterthought after the President realised that he was being led to attend a conference that was being organised by Mr. Milken, a former criminal and jailbird in the USA?
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. You will agree with me that my colleague, the Senator for Kakamega is pre-empting the statement that we expect from the Chairman. Is he in order to suggest that disciplinary action should be taken against one Manoah Esipisu for misleading the President even before we get the statement from the Chairperson?
Order, hon. Senators! I want to thank the hon. Senator for Vihiga. The hon. Senator for Kakamega is completely out of order. He is anticipating debate. I wonder from whom he is also seeking clarification. A Senator has sought a statement. The Chair has not yet responded. So, hold your horses and wait for the statement to come to the House. You will then have plenty of opportunity to seek clarification.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. In addition to the very clear request by the distinguished Senator for Nyandarua, the Chairman of the Committee should also clarify, knowing that a Presidential flight is not an ordinary flight. Before the President’s plane takes off, every jurisdiction over which it will overfly is notified, clearance sought and obtained. In fact, when the President overflies that jurisdiction, there is communication between him and his representative and the Government of the jurisdiction he is overflying as a goodwill message. Was this clearance sought and received before the President’s plane took off? Is there much more than we are being told that is behind this turn around in the air that has caused such a terrible embarrassment, not just to the President, but to the country?
Order, Senators! Ideally, there should not be further requests or additions to a statement. Just because I have allowed it, it does not mean that a bad practice must be perpetuated. We allow things which are sometimes very significant. Instead of having very many requests to a statement just formulate your issues in a way that you can raise them in terms of clarifications. This is not the time. With that understanding, Sen. Ong’era, what would be your point of order? The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I would further want the Chairperson to request for an immediate apology to Kenyans whose President has been greatly embarrassed from the officers who were responsible.
Order! I direct the Chairperson not to consider that request. That is not only proper anticipation of debate, but you have gone ahead to give an answer. The Senator for Vihiga had put it so well, that no officer, including the one he mentioned, should be named at this particular point. So, why would you anticipate an apology?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I request Sen. (Eng.) Muriuki to give us two weeks to respond to that particular Statement.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I do not think that two weeks are needed because there is no research needed. All the facts are there. In my suggestion, one week should be absolutely maximum.
Order, Sen. Muriuki! I want you to, first of all, appreciate that just because you sought the Statement, it does not give you automatic response capacity. You still need to ask the Chair to allow you to respond. I do not even know who gave you the microphone. Sen. Dullo, you have heard the Senator.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I further request Sen. (Eng.) Muriuki to give us two weeks because this is something that is very important and sensitive. Given two weeks, we will be able to give you a comprehensive report.
It is so ordered! The response should come to the Floor of the House in two weeks’ time.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I can now respond.
Please, proceed. FAILURE BY KMPDB TO DEVOLVE TO THE COUNTIES
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I stand to give a Statement that was requested by Sen. Mukite. She sought reasons the Kenya Medical and Practitioners and Dentists Board (KMPDB) is not yet devolved to the counties, despite the Senate’s resolution passed on the 25th September, 2013, that they open branches in every county. The response we give is that KMPDB is a regulatory body established under Cap 253 of the Laws of Kenya. The KMPDB’s core mandate is to regulate training and practice of medicine and dentistry as well as healthcare standards in hospitals, medical centres and clinics. The MPDB carries out its functions from its offices in Nairobi. The MPDB is aware of the Senate’s resolution of 25th September, 2013, requiring it to open offices in the 47 counties. However, the resolution has not been implemented due to financial constraints. The MPDB finances its operations using internally generated funds and does not receive funding from the central Government. It has been operating from a residential house purchased using a bank loan that was borrowed in 2009. It is currently putting up an office block at Kshs280 million, whose works will be completed by December 2015. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Who had sought the Statement?
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The delay in implementing the resolution is unacceptable. The Motion was passed in September 2013. Two years down the line, we are told that they have financial challenges. What are the families out there supposed to do? Last night, on television, there was a case in Eldoret where a family took their child to hospital and because wrong medication was applied. The child was injected on the head and it got infected. For over a year now, the child has not healed. There is pus coming from the head. The child’s life is under threat. This is a very important matter and I request the Senate Committee on Health to go ahead with the appeal so that the families can take redress.
Order Senator! Please, seek clarification. If you are satisfied, say so.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am not satisfied because people are suffering out there and I would like action taken immediately.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I would like to further inform the House that the KMPDB has established a web based service where people with complaints can lodge them. It is in operation even right now. They have also established a committee called Professional Conduct Committee which will handle disciplinary matters. The KMPDB has already done 11 professional conduct hearings in Nairobi, Trans-Nzoia, Kisumu, Kisii, Nyeri and Kiambu counties. Therefore, the fact that they have not been devolved does not mean that the cases of indiscipline or mismanagement of patients by professionals are not being heard. There are those two methods; the web based surveys and the disciplinary committee that goes round and receives complaints and addresses them. Therefore, in the case of the child that Sen. Nabwala is talking about, these two methods could be applied. The case can be heard and the necessary disciplinary measures taken on the professionals. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
What is it, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale?
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I rise to seek leave to move that the Senate do now adjourn. This is to enable the Senate to debate the state of security in Parliament and our universities, given reports that these institutions have become the focus and targets for attack by Al Shabaab and given further that a member of staff of the Senate has reportedly---
Order, Senator! You need to read the Statement that was approved and not your own Statement. I am the one who approved it and not you.
This is to enable the Senate to debate the state of security in Parliament and in our universities, given reports that these institutions have become the focus and targets for attack by the Al Shabaab and given further---
Order! That was the approved part.
On the face of it, subject to confirmation, you seem to have the numbers. So, we will allocate the last one hour to the Motion for Adjournment, that is, from 5.30 p.m. to 6.30 p.m. today. Let us proceed. Sen. Adan.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I think I have a problem with my system here. I want to issue a Statement requested by Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo. Mr. Speaker, Sir, on 18th March, 2015, Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo requested for a Statement regarding the long-term measures that have been employed to stamp out cattle rustling in West Pokot, especially along the Turkwel-Kainuk Junction. The hon. Senator sought to be informed on why the national Government has not established a General The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to thank the Vice Chairperson for issuing a comprehensive Statement to this very frequent questions that we have always asked since the Senate started. I had asked that for the last ten years, requests have been made that a GSU and anti-stock theft camp be established. She has not responded to that particular issue. She is just giving a general answer. I said that Perkeye which is the junction of Turkwel and Kainuk coming back to Marichi, should have a camp. This has been asked for so long and even the Speaker, while still a Member of Parliament, asked the same. I want her to tell us when it is going to be done.
Order, professor! Do not take me there. I am now here and you are there.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I just wanted to demonstrate how serious this issue is, but nobody seems to be treating it seriously. She also said that the Government has deployed adequate security personnel. What do you mean by “adequate security personnel” when this problem is still active even now? Could she substantiate and tell us the definition of “adequate” according to the Government? She also said that the Government has formed an inter-community grazing committee. I just want her to know that what she is telling us is not true. There is nothing like inter-community grazing committee in that region, unless it was done a few minutes ago. If it was done, then most of the problems we have would not be there. Lastly, she talked about Uwezo Fund that is going to be given to women and the youth to stop cattle rustling. This is a peculiar problem that was inherited. I expected her The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I appreciate the issues raised by Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo. First and foremost, I would like to say that as a Committee we rely on the information given by the relevant department. That is what I have in this answer. The Statement said that land had already been identified in Lamut and Perkeye areas and construction will be done once the funds are available. We need to refer that to the Statement by Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo. As to whether the Government is serious or not, of course, it is serious on security matters although there are challenges. Regarding the issue of adequate security I do not think I can respond to that because he has not requested for information about adequate security on the ground. I might not be able to respond to that question right now. However, if he really wants additional information on that matter, then I will give it to him. Regarding the inter-communal grazing committee, this is information that we were given by the Office of the President. It is a matter that I can confirm if he asserts that the committees are not on the ground. Finally, regarding Uwezo Fund, this is used for the empowerment of the youth and women. For us who come from pastoral communities, the reason people get involved in other criminal activities is because of poverty and idleness. By providing Uwezo Fund, it can occupy them leaving little time for cattle rustling. If the Senator thinks he has a better solution to this particular problem, we can sit down and discuss a way forward to resolve the problem.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I do not think the Vice Chairperson got me right. In the last statement, I said we create a dedicated fund different from Uwezo Fund, that can be used, not only in West Pokot County, but also in Turkana, Samburu, Baringo and any other county where this problem is. Has Kenya not suffered from cattle rustling enough to the extent that they want to treat it as a non-issue? Lastly, when I said “adequate”, I will give you facts; that in Sarmach we have three Administration Police (APs) officers and yet this is the playground of cattle rustlers. We have less than 10 officers in Kainuk. Lumut which we are talking about here and Orwa have six APs and no car. So, go to your books and explain to us adequately and tell us how we can sort out that problem, including moving some of the officers who are at the headquarters in Lodwar and Kapenguria, so that this problem can be easily minimized or wiped out. Thank you.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I may not be able to answer about the funds that Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo is asking because it is something that requires policies and legislations that are to be put in place. At the end of my response to his issues, I said that it is important if the Senator and I could sit together, discuss and see how we can resolve the issues that are affecting that particular region.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have heard the Vice Chairperson say that they are going to establish the Anti-Stock Theft Unit (ASTU) in new places, It is true that The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Order, Senator! Had you started from where you ended, it would have been a perfect intervention.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I appreciate the question that Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo had asked and the answer that the able Vice Chairperson has given. However, it is good if the leadership in these areas that are affected by cattle rustling could come out because I know pastoral groups respect their leaders very much. I believe if only those who are in leadership like Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo could talk to his brothers or his people, he can control them. Equally, I am sure the entire leadership within Turkana or Samburu county can come together and speak to the people. That way we will even give the Government ---
Order! This is Statements Time and not time to give suggestions.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I wish to ask the Vice Chairperson whether the Government is aware of the presence of technology which can be used to address this issue and whether the Government can attempt to use technologies which have been used in areas that manage large herds of animals. This can be done in this area. We have various systems like the BoLA and the texting systems where we can ring a cow and find out where it is. That way, we can sort out all these problems of putting military forces on the ground. We simply need to find out where the cow is.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to respond to the Senator for Wajir. I do not think I said that we are going to establish an ASTU in most of those areas. I was just responding to a question that was asked by Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo in that particular area. Of course, the ASTU has existed in most of these areas. On the final part of his question, security is a matter that is affecting this country and we are really concerned as the Committee on National Security and Foreign Relations and also as the leadership of this House. My Committee is working on a report and we are looking at the issues that are raised on the Floor of the House to be able to give a recommendation to the Government to make sure that things are done properly - from our findings when we visited Mandera, Kapedo and other parts of this country - as a result of the Motion that was brought by Sen. Billow. Thank you. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Order, Senators! Before we proceed to the next order, I have a Message form the National Assembly which I received after we had commenced our proceedings and I wish to communicate it to you. Hon. Senators, I wish to report to the Senate that pursuant to Standing Order No.40(3) and (4), I have received the following message from the Speaker of the National Assembly regarding the rejection by the Assembly, of the Senate amendments to the Division of Revenue Bill, (National Assembly Bill No. 11 of 2015). Pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order No.142 of the National Assembly, I hereby convey the following message from the National Assembly: Whereas the Division of Revenue Bill (National Assembly Bill No. 11 of 2015), a Bill concerning county governments was published by the Kenya Gazette Supplement No.28 of 18th March, 2015 and, thereafter considered and passed by the National Assembly on the 23rd March 2015; whereas the Senate’s amendments to the Division of Revenue Bill (National Assembly Bill No. 11 of 2015), while received on 14th April 2015 for consideration by the National Assembly, and; whereas the National Assembly on 21st April 2015 rejected the amendments to the said Bill; now, therefore, in accordance to the provisions of Article 112(1)(a) of the Constitution and Standing Order No.142 of the National Assembly Standing Orders, I hereby convey the said decision of the National Assembly, the consequence of which the Bill stands referred to a mediation committee. That is the end of the quote of this message from the National Assembly. Hon. Senators, Article 112(1)(b) of the Constitution provides that if one House passes an ordinary Bill concerning counties, and the second House passes the Bill in an amended form, it shall be referred back to the originating House for reconsideration. Further, Article 112(2)(b) of the Constitution provides that if, after the originating House has reconsidered a Bill referred back to it under clause (1)(b), that House rejects the Bill as amended, the Bill shall be referred to a mediation committee under Article 113. For the benefit of Senators, Article 113(1) provides as follows:- “If a Bill is referred to a mediation committee under Article 112, the Speakers of both Houses shall appoint a mediation committee consisting of equal numbers of members of each House to attempt to develop a version of the Bill that both Houses will pass. (2) If the mediation committee agrees on a version of the Bill, each House shall vote to approve or reject that version of the Bill. (3) If both Houses approve the version of the Bill proposed by the mediation committee, the Speaker of the National Assembly shall refer the Bill to the President within seven days for assent. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I stand on a point of clarification. It is well that the Speaker of the National Assembly has sent us a Message that you have just read to us which we receive. However, in future, would it be in order whenever one House; either this or the other House, rejects a Bill for there to be public spat on the House that rejects the Bill? I say this because when we reject or amend certain clauses of a Bill in question, there has been a lot of ridicule by Members of the National Assembly to this House that whatever we did was illegal; we do not know what we are doing. Is it not normal for us to disagree on issues and receive a Message like the one we have received and then appoint Members of the arbitration in the absence of the abuses and ridicule by the other House? Mr. Speaker, Sir, as you write back to your brother, would I be in order to suggest that you draw his attention to the fact that rejecting or not agreeing with the feelings of this House does not mean that Members should, through a public debate, cause ridicule or abuse to Members of this House? Mr. Speaker, Sir, I thank you.
Sen. Mositet, I see you have put a request. Do you have another matter? Is it related, different or none at all to this issue?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is also related to that. Thank you for your communication. I also thank the leadership of the House for the names that it approved for the mediation team. However, just like Sen. Musila has said, it does not augur well, not just to this Senate, but to all Kenyans, to note that any time we do something that is for the benefit of the common man, our Members of the National Assembly try to exercise the superiority of their House. It is high time this House comes up and tells Kenyans that whatever Members of the National Assembly have been doing is hurting the common mwananchi . The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I just want to support the sentiments of my colleagues. The reports appearing in the press suggest that the Senate picked Kshs7 billion from the air without justification. Maybe, it will be appropriate that you tell this House, through a communication, whether the HANSARD of the proceedings, both at the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget level and in the Floor of the House, were communicated to the Chairman of the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget of the National Assembly. This is because it is in bad taste for Senators to appear as if we plucked Kshs7 billion from somewhere while the correct position would be that there was justification of the items that we rejected. It is also fair that while you communicate with them, you tell them that the Supreme Court gave us the mandate to amend, alter or do anything that we feel is in the best interest of counties. Our work is not to rubberstamp decisions made by them. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, this Senate represents the interests of counties. Any amendment or figures that have been put up are in consideration of the requirements of the counties. In this House, we have passed very many Bills originating from the National Assembly in good faith without rejecting or amending them. Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is disheartening that any time we arrive at a figure which we think is proper and in good faith, the other House takes it as if we are in competition yet, Members of the National Assembly represent constituencies where this money is going. This exercise of allocating funds to counties should not be an area of contest just for the purpose of proving which House has more say than the other because we are all serving the public. It is the right time Members of the National Assembly took us as equal partners in terms of decisions concerning allocation of funds to counties and on any other matter so that our Bills are not trashed just because they did not originate from the National Assembly. Thank you.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, statements that came from the Chairman of the Committee on Budget and Appropriations were not only disheartening, but demeaning to this House. They ware laced with unhelpful arrogance. In a nutshell, what the Chairman said is that this House does not know what it is doing. They originated a Bill and yet the mandate to deal with revenues allocated to counties almost exclusively lies with us. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for giving me an opportunity to speak on this matter. I will not so much focus on the behaviour of the Members of the National Assembly and chairmen of the various committees in the National Assembly and so on, but I would want them to recognize the place of the Senate in contributing to the Division of Revenue Bill. This is because we, as Senate, are charged with the responsibility of protecting the interests of county governments. There is no better place to protect the interests of county governments than in the Division of Revenue Bill. Therefore, one can say that when it comes to the Division of Revenue Bill, we ought to have a bigger say in how much will be allocated to the county governments. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I do not know whether Members of the National Assembly are in the intergovernmental committees where some of these agreements are reached and so on. Therefoare, they must not deviate in a very serious way from what has been arrived at by the Commission for Revenue Allocation (CRA). The CRA goes into these matters in a very professional way; in a way of experts and so on, and they make recommendations. If you noted, part of the differences between us in terms of figures and so on, are on those matters where the CRA, for example, had said that county governments should get so much and yet at the end of the day that was reduced considerably and yet there was no adequate explanation which is required under the Constitution for that deviation. You just see a figure there and then they just say that it should be so much, but no adequate explanation is given as to why and why not. There is the issue of free primary education, a very important stage in our education system in this country. This is a stage where the foundation of a child’s education is made. That is the responsibility of the county governments. Both the county governments and the CRA were united in saying that so much should go for that item and yet, it was drastically reduced. Although the Constitution says that there should be adequate explanation for that, there were really no adequate reasons given as to why we had that reduction. Therefore, I would appeal to the committees in the “Lower House” to The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, Sir. First and foremost, I want to thank you for that Communication and particularly for having made the nomination or decision of who is going to represent the Senate in the Mediation Committee. That is a strong team of three. I know that they will be be very helpful in finding a lasting solution for the benefit of the counties that we have sworn to represent as the Senate. For the Senators who did not come to Mombasa for the meeting with the speakers of the county assemblies, first and foremost, I want to state that we had an extremely successful meeting with them. It was one of the best attended consultative meetings that I have been to. The speakers of the county assemblies came with their clerks and other officials. One of the requests that we made at that meeting was the need for them and Members of the County Assemblies (MCAs) to take interest and realise that it is in the best interest of counties that we act. When we talk about the Kshs7.7 billion that we proposed, the Chairman of the Committee on Finance, in the “lower” House, needs to realize that none of that money is coming to the Senate. It is money that will go to the constituencies that they represent. It is money over and above, the highly contested Constituencies Development Fund (CDF). It is money that will be equitably distributed because all of us come from the former provinces. In those provinces, we had what was called provincial general hospitals which currently are Level 5 Hospitals. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, when the National Assembly was debating the Bill, one of the questions that they asked their leaders was whether the Senate had indicated where the Kshs7.7 billion would come from. When we were debating in the Senate we realigned the Budget and agreed where the amount would come from. I remember Kshs2.5 billion came from the national irrigation. Therefore, when we sent our Message to the National Assembly, the leadership of the National Assembly edited our report. They did not table the exact report that we sent them. This is because I remember most Members of the National Assembly asking why there was a budget without reallocation. We sent our Message indicating the reallocated budget. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Hon. Senators, I had indicated that those would be the last three, but I see that there is a bit of interest, including some of the Senators that we have sent on the mediation. They may want to assure us after hearing from others. I will just allow a few more and limit their time strictly to not more than two minutes. We will have Sen. Billow and, finally, Sen. Kagwe.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, obviously the Members of the National Assembly are up to mischief because in the Report by this Committee we provided the actual sources of the money; the Kshs7.7 billion. We did not leave it in the air. We specified why and gave reasons. That report is available to them. It is just a question of not willing to allow more money to go down to the counties. That is not acceptable because as more and more services and functions are devolved, it is important that we allocate more. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, Sir. First of all, I want to thank the House for the confidence that they have shown through the appointment of Sen. Elachi, Sen. Khalwale and I. Even though some people in the other House or this House will get annoyed, what we are trying to address here is who is going to be responsible for hospitals not running, emergencies in the counties or not being addressed and MCAs not being paid their salaries. We do not want to be held responsible for calamities happening and there is no money, for hospitals not having medicine. We want the Members of County Assembly (MCAs) to get some money. That is why we have agreed to be Members of this Committee. There is nothing else we are going to negotiate for. Those are the three sectors we need to address ourselves to. Members of Parliament are members of a county and they are supposed to be responsible for what is happening in their counties. Mr. Speaker, Sir, we must never have so much egos here in the Senate and in the National Assemblies, particularly the chairmanship of Committees. We should not begin to bite the hands that feed us in the counties. I do not think we need to start biting noses to spite our faces. Therefore, as we go to the negotiating table, we do so from the strength given by this House and realizing that we negotiate from good faith; we will never negotiate out of fear, but we will never fear to negotiate.
Order, Senators! I allowed a bit of this because the issue is of immense public interest. However, we must acknowledge that there was really no forum for such ventilations and that some of you exceeded your brief. It is not fair to accuse another person and go ahead to commit the same crime. The issue raised by Sen. Musila was an appropriate one and made it clear that each House has a responsible to believe that we act in good faith. That is the message that should come out from Parliament. That all act in good faith. This is why in the contents of speeches under, our Standing Order No.90(3), it is very clear. Standing Order No.90(3) states as follows:- “It shall be out of order to use offensive or insulting language whether in respect of Senators or other persons.” Standing Order No.90 (4) which is more applicable states that:- (4) No Senator shall impute improper motive to any other Senator or to a Member of the National Assembly except upon a specific substantive Motion of which at least three days’ notice has been given, calling in question the conduct of that Senator or the Member of the Assembly” The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Hon. Senators, Order No. 11 is also deferred to next week. We can now proceed with the rest of the Orders.
Where is the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Labour and Social Welfare? Sen. Madzayo? Vice-Chairperson or any Member who has been given the mandate by the Committee? Let us proceed with the next Bill. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the National Government Coordination (Amendment) Bill (Senate Bill No. 30 of 2014) seeks to amend the National---
Order, Senator! You need to move the Bill; you have not moved the Bill.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that The National Government Coordination (Amendment) Bill, 2014---
Order, Senator! Just read it as it is; “I beg to move”
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move: THAT, the National Government Coordination (Amendment) Bill (Senate Bill No. 30 of 2014)---
Be now read a second time.
Just revisit it. You have missed the word “Senate.”
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move:- THAT, the National Government Coordination (Amendment) Bill (Senate Bill No. 30 of 2014) be now read a Second Time.
You have now outdone yourself, proceed.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. This Bill that is before the House seeks to introduce some amendments. The amendment that is, indeed, mentioned here says that Section 15 of the National Government Coordination Act, 2014, which is the principal Act is amended by deleting the word “and” appearing at the end of paragraph “c” and inserting the following new paragraph immediately after paragraph “e” which is that “a village elder in respect of every village unit” As we know, pursuant to Section 1 of the Public Service Commission Act, the list of all the officers that fall under the National Coordination are given. I will start by giving the list of all of them. It says:- “(a) the County Commissioner in respect of every county is the head of the county in the National Government coordination” followed by (b) A deputy County Commissioner in respect of every sub-County (c) An Assistant County Commissioner in respect of every ward (d) A Chief in respect of every location (e) An Assistant Chief in respect of every sub-location and The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
But we are going to incur expenses.
Somebody is saying that we are going to incur expenses. However, which one is better? We should incur a little cost and save lives. Sen. Musila was a Provincial Commissioner ((PC), he knows that he would chose to spend a little money and save lives. However, we should make our people very responsible to take care of themselves. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this is a straightforward Bill. It is coming at a time when we want to look for every avenue to strengthen the security and the support that we require to help the Government have a firm grip on its people, how we move and how our economy is supposed to develop. We are being derailed today from the Vision 2030 and the miles we had gained. Last year, we declared that we are now a middle income country, but with this type of insecurity that we are facing, people are scared .These are the people that can easily assist us. We could also utilize the presence and support of the Kenya Police Reservists (KPRs) in some of those areas. This can work even where we stay here in Nairobi. We can choose to have some village elders in our estates. We have retired officers who live in our estates, but are not tired. They can easily take up some of these responsibilities and roles and assist us. I beg to move and seek that colleagues speak to it so that we can pass this Bill and make it a reality.
Thank you, Senator. Who is seconding the Bill?
Sen. Musila will second my Bill.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I also thank the distinguished Senator for West Pokot for giving me the honor to second this very important Bill. This is a matter that has been pending for a long time. I remember that during the 10th Parliament, we passed a Motion requiring the Government to recognize village elders and pay them. Whenever we come to huge national exercises, like the census or elections, these are the people who are relied upon by the Government to do the work that is at the rural level. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, thank you for giving me this opportunity to speak on this very important Bill. First of all, I want to thank the Mover of this Bill, Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo, because all his proposals for amendment of the Bill and all his Motions are focused on one thing; security. I believe that this is informed by the area which he represents in this Senate. Therefore, when he brings this Motion, as a professor, he has gone through it and has seen that it can improve security in Kenya. The concept of elders has been with us for quite some time. As Sen. Musila said, we have elders everywhere. In Western Province, we call them ligurus. These people perform good service but that function is multifaceted. In other words, they are not confined to issues of security. In fact, in security and investigations, they merely assist in a very peripheral way. I hope when this Bill is passed, the issues of security will come to the fore of their functions. They have mainly been concerned with disputes in the village. They are concerned with issues of land disputes, family disputes, petty crimes here and there. They have also been concerned with supplying the necessary information, when asked to do so by the Criminal Investigation Department (CID). So, far, they have not been proactive on issues of security. When this is enacted, I hope that they are going to take a proactive approach on issues of security. They should know who has come in the village as it is done in Rwanda. This is to keep a close eye on what is going on within the village. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, as they got concerned with other issues, not all the elders behaved like elders. For example, in land disputes, we have very many reports where particular elders can be bribed by one side to decide in a particular direction and so The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I thank Professor for bringing this amendment and I support it for various reasons. One of the weakest areas in which we are failing security in our country is the way we handle information; the way The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. From the outset, I stand to support this Bill and congratulate Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo for going down to the most basic level especially putting into consideration the complexity of running any entity, let alone a country and all that it entails. You need as many administrative and managerial boundaries as there are possible so that within each, you can cascade from the highest level to the lowest level. In the formulation that we have had where we are going to the lowest, to an assistant chief, I think we have missed the village elder who is the closest to the people. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, from the outset, I support this amendment Bill and thank Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo for coming up with this idea that we all have been grappling with. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the village elders, as we all know them, have been there since time immemorial. They have been doing very many things to the communities. They are not only the administrators but they have also been involved in dispute resolutions. They have been in tribunals; whether on matters of land, family matters and also in all issues, disseminating Government policy, protecting Government property and also dealing with prevention of crime. There have also been attempts to involve them in settling cases in a manner that ensures cohesion and forgiveness within the community. This role has been done by elders for all this time but the Government has never found a way to recognize them in terms of compensating them for the hours they put in. I want to thank the Senator for West Pokot for coming up with this idea of ensuring that they are remunerated to some level. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, village elders come in very many names in this country. In some parts, they are called village elders, wazee wa mtaa, Apondet apkok in the Rift Valley, Mukuru, headman, Mukasa, Mutureti, et cetera . I think as we seek to amend and assign a name, I do not know what we can do. Perhaps we should have an amendment whereby they do not lose that identity; the local name. This should continue because then they will carry along that status. The way such elders were identified was not through perhaps an interview process or appointments by the Government. One had to naturally grow, prove himself and assume that position naturally. The community would grant you that position depending on your conduct, particularly your behaviour and so forth. At the Committee Stage, somebody should come with an amendment to ensure that the method of recruitment is not the usual recruitment that is done through the Public Service. Perhaps it is necessary that the elders nominate this person through some form of electoral college or direct election depending on the area so that they come from the community. The qualification should never be tied to academics. There are some elders who are very respectable in the way they speak and resolve issues yet they never saw a door of a classroom. By amending this Bill, we should not disengage those who are already engaged as elders. In fact, we should reward them. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, in a village, there is not one elder; they are quite a number. Perhaps we can leave the elders as elders but elevate one in a village to be the one in charge. He could be called the coordinator or the chairman. We should have the chairman of the elders in every village. If numbers are not assigned, then everybody will The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Order! Your time is up. Sen. Hassan, just to caution you that we will have a Motion for Adjournment at 5.30 p.m but that will not take away your time. It will be saved for tomorrow when debate resumes.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to support this amendment and also congratulate Prof. Lonyangapuo who has shown unequivocal commitment, particularly to ensuring that we mainstream public administration. I think that this also is inspired by the fact that Sen. (Prof) Lonyangapuo, like many other Kenyans, comes from an area where the village elders are almost a grassroots movement that helps in public administration, in ways that add so much value to us. I do recall even during my time when I was at the Kenya National Commission for Human Rights (KNCHR), we constantly had to go to areas of distress to respond to certain calls of duty. Whether through cattle rustling or other forms of insecurity, the village elders played an extraordinary role. Therefore, if we have legitimized their position in terms of existence and by virtue of tradition, it has grown into a position that is recognized even in public administration, The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Is it 5.30 p.m.?
I saw the red light on and my assumption was that you were warning me that my time is up. Is that the case, Clerk?
You cannot communicate with the Clerk-at-the-Table. I am sure you know better than that. That is a clear abuse of process. Do you not know that? You have one minute.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we cannot continue having village elders creating quorum in our meetings. I do recall every other time we have a security issue in some locations or sub-locations in Mombasa, we ask village elders to attend certain meetings. Therefore, they have been a very integral part of public administration and The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Order, Sen. Hassan, it is now 5.30p.m and we shall now move to the Motion of Adjournment. You have expended five minutes you have another----
Order, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale. Sen. Hassan, you have expended five minutes, you have ten more minutes when this debate resumes tomorrow or whenever it is going to resume. This debate is stood over now until when it appears next on the Order Paper. Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, the Speaker allowed your Motion of Adjournment, so you may proceed.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise under Standing Order No.33(1) to seek leave---
Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, you know that when you moved this Motion earlier in the afternoon, when you sought leave, you brought it under Standing Order No.31(1), for the record, it is important that you make correction of the proper Standing Order under which you are bringing this Motion.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, in fact, that is what I was doing. I rise under Standing Order No. 33(1) to seek leave to move that the Senate now adjourn. This is to enable this Senate to debate the state of security in Parliament and in our universities, given reports that these institutions have become the focus and targets for attacks by Al Shabaab. I want to thank Members and the House for giving me this leave. I want to commence by remembering what---
So that you organize yourself, you appreciate that you only have ten minutes, right? The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I want to start by remembering the words of the former President of Tanzania, the late Mwalimu Nyerere, who told Tanzanians that; “mfichaficha uchafu, mwishowe ugonjwa humfichua” I use these words of the former President to request Senators to know that the threat of Al-Shabaab has been around for a long time, in fact since 2007; and we do not talk about it because of the various sensitivities associated with it. But as we continue doing this, tunaficha ficha uchafu na ugonjwa kupitia kwa maafa, umeanza kutufichua. Bombing of Parliaments in the world is a reality; the first such occurrence took place in the Palace of Westminster during the Second World War when the Houses of Parliament were bombed a total of 14 times. It happened in the Indian Parliament where 14 people died in 2001. It happened in Libya in the City of Tobruk; it happened in Somalia on 5th July 2014 where a suicide bomber killed four people including Members of Parliament (MPs). It happened with devastating effects on 6th April 1994, in the Parliament of Rwanda, when it was bombed severally after a plane carrying President Habyarimana of Rwanda together with President Ntaryamira of Burundi was shot down. So, to hear that our Parliament is under threat is a reality which we must rise to and say nothing but the truth. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is sad that as I move this Motion, I have been prompted to do so because of two things; one, is the killing of 148 innocent university students in Garrisa and the arrest of a member of staff working in the HANSARD of the Senate on suspicion of being a possible sympathizer of Al Shabaab. It calls and begs for several questions because this man was first mentioned by a United Nations (UN) Monitoring report in 2011. This matter even came on the Floor of the last Parliament where I was privileged to attend. This man’s name was mentioned together with the name of a former Minister from Coast Province who is currently a Cabinet Secretary. It was mentioned on the Floor of the House in the Report together with a female nominated MP in the last Parliament who is still a Nominated MP again. It begs the question, as we played Mr. nice, gentleman and lady; what did the Parliamentary Service Commission (PSC) do from that time? What has the Chairman of the PSC, the Clerk of the Senate, the Clerk of the National Assembly and the two Speakers done? We must demand that these officers should tell Kenyans why they have had an officer who was under the radder for all these years and why they have not come out publicly to tell us what they are doing about it. This officer, who has been arrested, according to the Report in 2011, belongs to the Muslim Youth Centre in Pumwani, also called the Pumwani Youth Centre and is a Vice Chair of a mosque there. We need the security organs to tell us what they have done all this time, whether they have been keeping this young man under the radder deliberately or whether they just wished it off. It is important that we know. This particular youth centre is registered as a Community Based Organization (CBO) and gets funding. Some of the politicians that I have mentioned at the beginning of my speech were actually named because they were suspected to be channeling money through that CBO. We want the security forces to tell us what kind of statements they have taken from these politicians. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
What is your point of order, Sen. Hassan?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, since Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale has said that he has done his research, is it in order for him to provide facts to demonstrate the proportionality or otherwise of the imbalance that he is alluding to about young Somalis being recruited here? Could he provide statistics and real facts?
Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale that challenge is directed to you.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, indeed, I am a scientist; I speak from a point of knowledge. According to Standing Orders, I will come here tomorrow to table the list of the new recruits because I will get the list from the Parliamentary Service Commission in the Office of the Clerk. I will serve you with that list; there is no question about it. I have nothing against youths from any community getting jobs but I am just asking---
You see, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, normal practice is that when a challenge like that one comes, you should be able to substantiate immediately. Is that right?
I did not ask you to sit. Are you undertaking to table that information tomorrow morning?
Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, at the next sitting, I will table it because according to the Standing Orders, I can table them within 48 hours.
I am asking you for the HANSARD record, to state that you are giving that undertaking. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Yes, I am giving that undertaking. I will go to the Office of the Clerk to get it.
Failure to which I will require you to withdraw and apologise.
Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
It is so ordered, proceed.
My final point, and with all due respect to all Muslim political and religious leaders, is that they can do us a favour by being patriotic. I remember that a few years ago, we had the threat of Mungiki and the Kikuyu politicians were right on the forefront and the menace of Mungiki went away. We are all very grateful; normalcy has been restored.
I insist that political and religious leaders from the Muslim community must be at the fore front in helping us to eliminate Al-Shabaab because radicalization of our youth does not take place in churches; it takes place in mosques.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
What is your point of order, Sen. Hassan?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have enormous respect for Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale but when he tries to challenge the patriotism or otherwise of Muslim leaders, is he in order?
I do not think he has; he is just setting a foundation. He is saying that it is incumbent upon everybody.
Absolutely, then he should just---
It is upon everybody that if radicalization is an issue, to help end radicalization. I think that is the impression I got.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, thank you for hearing me in exactly what I meant. If my brother Sen. Hassan has any doubt, statistics of the incidences will bear me out. I am again repeating that we all have a moral duty. I started by citing the case of Kikuyu leaders led by none other than former President Kibaki and the late Mr. John Michuki. We are demanding that Muslim leaders must do it unless we end up in a fist fight. It is not a child’s play; it is one thing to feel bad that somebody is asking you to exercise a moral duty and a totally different thing to attend a funeral of children because somebody was having fun, trying to advance their personal agenda. This cannot be allowed; not in Parliament, not in our universities and not anywhere in Kenya.The issue of Al-Shabaab, an extension of Al Qaeda, is not acceptable anywhere in the world. If people want us to live in this world of God, then we should condemn that which is bad and embrace that which advances the interest of mankind. I beg to move.
Thank you. I want to believe that a Motion of Adjournment is not one that requires secondment. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
That is my basic understanding of that; should I be wrong, Sen. Musila is here and I am sure he will correct me. Now, each one of you has five minutes to contribute because that is what the Standing Orders provide. Should you find the need – if you look at Standing Order No. 33, it says “unless the Senate provides otherwise” so, it is not the Speaker, it is the Senate so that would be a Motion for extension of that five minutes. So it is five minutes each. Proceed, Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I stand to contribute to this Adjournment Motion because we recall, when this issue was mentioned yesterday, that an employee of the Senate is a member of a group that is outlawed and is engaged in terror activities in the country, it was a shock. Again, today in the newspapers, we were made aware that for over ten years, the said officer has been under surveillance, which means that the leadership of the Senate, Parliament and of this country possibly were aware. We have come through a series of deaths that have shocked our nation. In 2013 we lost innocent people at the Westgate Mall terror attack. These are people who walked to the shopping mall to buy goods, food stuffs for their children and do the normal shopping. Recently, a group of innocent students in a university in Garissa – Garissa is in Kenya and we would want to “plant” a university in every county as we passed in this Senate - you recall that last year we resolved that every county has to have a public university funded by public coffers. For the first time, the former North Eastern Province was going to have the first inaugural university, a public university that was mentored by Moi University, but lives of innocent children were lost because of the Al- Shabaab. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we should not take it for granted when information has been passed. I do not know whether our officers take it seriously because we hear that information had been given to Garissa University that an attack could have happened any time and it was just ignored. We are now reading that for some time, this said officer has been on radar. Whose radar? If it had actually been known that he was associated with that, what were we waiting for? As Kenyans we must wake up and forget the cocoons where we are hiding and begin to treat our people properly. This officer was supposed to be rescued many years ago and reformed, if he is a Kenyan. Completely reformed by detox – removing bad manners from him or her. “Detoxination,” that is what we are supposed to have done.
Order! There is no such word as “detoxination”
Something close to that.
I am sure you mean detoxification.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, that one. This officer was supposed to have been rescued. We do not know how many he has “affected “and “infected” with his or her doctrines. I think it is time we looked at ourselves as Kenyans The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I thank Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale for moving this Motion of Adjournment and the Chair for allowing us to debate this important matter. It is disheartening to see the Government benches vacant when we are discussing such a critical matter. I saw a picture of a young man on the front page of one of the papers. This is a young man I have seen around and I know him. If this is a question of mistaken identity, then I pity him. However, if this is founded on information, then we are living in very dangerous times. Even the information available as to how the police have handled the matter is frighteningly incompetent. The police have been regularly requesting the administration of Parliament whether they should arrest the young man or not. In a matter such as this, it does not matter whether it was me, the Speaker, a Senator or anybody else. Where lives of Kenyans are in danger or imminent danger, you do not need anybody’s permission to arrest or interrogate somebody. This is very shocking. I hope this is not a case of mistaken identity. In 1975, in Lebanon, a terrorist drove a truck into Parliament, bombed it and killed everybody including my friend, Amin Gemayel, who would have become the President of that country. The entire Members of Parliament died with one stroke. In Iran, you may recall, that the only survivors who escaped the bomb was Rafsanjani, who had walked across the street with some three Members for tea. Everybody else died. Somebody drove a truck full of Carbon IED explosives and bombed Parliament and everybody died. The terrorists here have now almost exhausted soft targets. They have hit shopping malls and killed women and children while shopping. They have hit universities and killed innocent children. Now, they must be looking at serious targets and what better target than Parliament; the seat of leadership. We have been saying, from the alternative leadership in this country and good people like Sen. G.G. Kariuki have agreed with us that the management of our security structure is not what it used to be. People are playing games with security. We discussed here, this afternoon, how you can allow a Presidential plane fly into a war zone and cowardly turn back. We have been crying and saying that the Government should invest in intelligence. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Order, Sen. Wetangula. There are no “guys” of Jubilee here. You need to withdraw because everybody is a Senator.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I withdraw and apologise. You Senators from Jubilee, staring at me, who was going to benefit from this?
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Save my time.
Is the Senate Minority Leader, Sen. Wetangula, in order to shout at the opposite side of the House referring to us as guys?
Order. I already ruled on that. The Senate Minority Leader has also apologised. Sen. Wetangula, you should appreciate that you have five minutes which are almost ending now.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I thought you gave me 10 minutes?
No, I did not give you 10 minutes. You know, as well as I do, that everybody has five minutes except the Mover.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, give me three minutes. I must wind up. This country is going through problems. People must wake up. My friend, hon. Nkaissery, is a new Minister in the Ministry of Interior and National Co-ordination. We implore him to wake up. This is not business as usual. The more I look at the Inspector-General of Police, the more he talks, the more unbelievable he appears to be. Who is handling our security? We need to give Kenyans hope and security. Finally, the Government has let down the people of Kenya. The recent Garissa massacre of students, you may recall, was the third largest number of students killed by terrorists in the world. The first one was in Bedlam School in Chechnya where 286 students were killed. The second one was in Peshawar, Pakistan where 187 students were killed. The third one was in Kenya where 148 were killed. We did not even have a state funeral. We expected the leadership of this country, regardless of affiliation, to go to Uhuru Park, honour these children and tell the world enough is enough. Recently, in France, three journalists were bombed and killed and eight African Presidents took planes to France. They went to condole the French for this cowardly and untimely terrorist attack. When we lose 148 people, not even our own President went there. Not even the Deputy President went there. Nobody went there. The children were The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I got very worried when the Mover was speaking. However, my fears were allayed after Sen. Wetangula spoke. I am also one of those who believe that the due process must follow its course and not apportion guilt by association. If I recall, the young man was in Moi University, about two years behind me, at the time that I was in the university around the late 1990s. Pumwani Riyadh Mosque is associated with a young Eng. Ahmed Iman, who is the head of Al Qaeda or Al Shabaab Kenyan cell in Somalia. I think these are matters well within the domain of those who seek this information. Just because the young man is the vice chairperson of that Mosque where Ahmed Iman was once a youth leader, will require investigations into establishing whether he is connected in a tangible way or not. The United Nation (UN) Monitoring Group on Eritrea and Somalia once produced a report that mentioned a number of Cabinet Ministers who were serving then and all that is in the public domain. Hon. Balala and Hon. Amina Abdalla were mentioned in that report, because they had contributed to a fundraiser for the completion of the Pumwani Riyadh Mosque. So, this is guilt by association and the stereotyping of leaders from a certain faith. It is too easy lately to stereotype a Muslim. All you need to do is see somebody with a Muslim garb and raise alarm that you think there is a suspected terrorist taking photographs. We should desist from this stereotypical behavior. I know that this country is facing a very difficult moment, but the United States of America (USA), which has faced similar challenges, has had to ensure that they extent collaboration and partnership with some of the constituencies and stakeholders that are critical in this war against terror. Personally, I do not believe that there can be a Senator seated here who is supporting terror. For anybody to pick up media reports and try to continue with the strategy of profiling other people is beneath any critical mind. I was happy to hear Sen. Wetangula say that this young man has worked here for ten years. If it is true, then we live in very interesting times. Sen. Wetangula, being a lawyer, also said that we hope that it is mistaken identity. However, there can never be any guilt by association. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, Ahmed Iman was a member of Pumwani Riyadh Mosque and Muslims pray in all mosques in this country. We know that there are certain young men who mean no good. However, the young man’s colleagues can attest to his credibility. If he has worked for ten years, why would he have waited for that long? There are also so many other begging questions that require us to be more critical with information that we receive. I wish that our intelligence will do their work, rather than continue to arrest Muslims everywhere on all kinds of suspicion. Some people in shopping malls raise alarm whenever they see other people dressed in Muslim garbs. We are in this country by right. I feel pained when some of the most senior citizens of this country who hold the core of reforms, can today stereotype without The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Sen. (Prof.) Longangapuo, do you have a point of order?
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The Senate is in a state of shock and nobody is condemning anybody. Is Sen. Hassan, my former student, in order to think that other Senators are condemning others? We are discussing a Motion of Adjournment where one of our employees has been mentioned in relation to terrorism.
I have not condemned anybody. I have said that as leaders of this country---
Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo, I will allow Sen. Hassan to have his opinion on the issue because we are dealing with the Motion of Adjournment and I am not going to stop anybody as long as they keep within the Standing Orders in giving their view or their position on this issue. You have 20 seconds to finish your contribute.
Therefore, I am asking this Senate to let the law take its course. The United Nations (UN) Monitoring Group Report has been active in the public domain for the last three or four years. The same report has accused the Kenyan forces in Somalia of trading in charcoal. All these reports need to be investigated in good faith but we must stop the strategy of profiling every Muslim and whenever you want any Muslim to be under pressure, you fabricate any charges. I hope the intelligence will come out clear on these matters and resolve them conclusively.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, thank you for allowing me to contribute in support of this Motion. Our worries in the Senate were highlighted when we read in the papers that one of our employees, who has been working here for a long time, is a suspect. We do not know if there are others who are yet to be arrested. That makes us afraid to even to come to this Senate. We are afraid because we are human beings, especially after the Garissa attack. We have had several Motions of Adjournment to discuss security matters in Mandera, Wajir, Garissa and other places but nothing much has come out of our discussions. We just talk and that is all. I hope this will not be the usual story where we talk, air views and nothing happens. We hope that security will be reinforced in Parliament and especially in the Senate. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Your time is up, Senator. I have six requests and I have 20 minutes. I would like each of you to contribute.Thisis not a Motion that we need the Mover to reply. I think it is fair that I give each of you three minutes so that I give everybody a chance because I have six requests on the table. Is that correct?
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I think this is perhaps the fourth Adjournment Motion we have had over insecurity in the country.
Sen. Musila, I see the interest has gone down so I will give you five minutes.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, everyone is concerned about the amount of insecurity in this country. The adjournment Motion by the distinguished Senator for Kakamega, if it was about the incident of yesterday, I would like to say that it is premature because the issue of surveillance of a person is a process. It is possible that all of us sitting here are under the radar of the intelligence organs of the State for one reason or another. So, the question of blaming the Parliamentary Service Commission (PSC) for having not taken action against this man, I think, is premature. First and foremost, as it has been said, no one even knows for certain whether this man has any case to answer. I say this because the arrest was based on intelligence information. It would be doing justice to this man if we did not even get involved in the discussion of his matter because he is just a suspect who has been arrested and we do not even know whether there is evidence or not. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Your time is up, Senator. Sen. G.G. Kariuki, you have three minutes.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, three minutes is too short. However, I would like to say the following. When the National Assembly and the Senate deal with matters of security, they need to be extremely careful. This is because we appear as if we know too much, more than those who do investigations. Unless we support those people, it will be a big problem. Some of them will fear to arrest any person, particularly those connected to a Member of Parliament or a “big person”, because it could be an issue. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Your time is up. Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr., you have three minutes.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am happy that the information is out in the public. I had a letter on WhatsApp which I circulated to the CORD Senators even before it was reported. That shows the manner in which we have treated this issue casually because I had the information. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I also had the letter that was written to the University of Nairobi regarding security way before the Garissa attack. It is a good thing that we are debating this issue. Whether the young man is guilty or not, the fact is that there is smoke; we must look for the fire. I have no hesitation, particularly from the experience of the people we buried in Makueni, to say that everybody in this Parliament must be vetted. We must check because the implication of not doing anything would result in what we saw in Garissa. This is the only place you can walk in, walk out, there is no record, there is no CCTV and nobody knows anything and yet this is an institution where leaders are seated and where the President comes to address the nation. We have no security measures in place. Simply frisking people at the gate – I would like to tell Sen. Musila – is not good enough and can never be good enough. If, for example, a person was to stand at the gate of the KICC with a rocket propelled hand grenade, it would get right into this building. Why are we so concerned about somebody passing through the gate and yet from KICC across the road, this building can be bombed? If a person was on Parliament Road in a traffic jam and decided to turn their vehicle and ram into this building, they would end up at where the Speaker is seated. That is what I am calling negligence of the highest order. In contributing to this Motion, I want to say that our students are in danger; colleges in Migori and Nairobi are closing and, one time, nobody will go to school because of these people. We must as the Senate start taking action and vet everybody. If this gentleman is involved with a terror organization, he must be ruthlessly dealt with together with his associates. Whether he is a Muslim or not, all of us have the right to life and, therefore, the fact of religion does not supersede that provision of law that gives us the right to live in this country until God decides otherwise.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, let me congratulate Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale for gaining the courage to move this Motion. It is really sad that only the other day we had a terrorist attack in Garissa and this happened at the heart of a community which is 100 per cent Muslim. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
I will not allow any more points of order. We only have five more minutes and there are people interested in talking.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am saying this out of pain.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. When we speak here, let us make statements that we have sound knowledge of. I have deep respect for the Senator, but we should not speak without research. Before you speak go and research before you make such wild pronouncements.
That is not a point of order. Is it?
I have made my point.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, for allowing me to contribute to this Motion of adjournment.
Order! Sen. Omar, I hear you saying that you have made your point. Maybe you think that you have made your point, but when I say that I will not allow frivolous points of order, I hope you understand what I mean. It is not about making a point but following the procedure that we must follow in this House, with respect to other Members of the House also.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the threat of Al Shabaab is real and we should accept that no place is safe. In the past, we have seemed to live in denial, assuming that the threat will just go away. The way to go about the issue is to accept that the threat is there and take every possible measure, as a country, to deal with it. It is even worrying that Parliament itself is suspected to be the target of a terrorist attack. We all need to do everything possible to ensure that Parliament is safe. The aim of Al Shabaab is to cause terror and publicize it. In so doing, it can take advantage of religious, community or ethnic differences to gain their interest. At this time, all citizens of this cournty, regardless of their ethnic communities or religion, need to come together, to demonstrate to Al Shabaab that we are one nation. When France was attacked, there was a big demonstration. I hope that sooner or later, we shall also have demonstrations throughout this country to show the Al Shabaab The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Hon. Senators, it is now time to adjourn the House. The House, therefore, stands adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday 29th April, 2015, at 2.30 p.m. The Senate rose at 6.30 p.m. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.