Mr. Speaker, Sir, pursuant to Standing Order No.225(3), I wish to present a Petition on behalf of the Council of Elders of Kirinyaga Mihiriga Kenda, which is the Kikuyu name for the nine clans. The Kikuyu’s comprise of nine clans, totaling ten clans. At that time, they were nine, but now they mean ten clans. It reads as follows:- We, the undersigned, citizens of the Republic of Kenya, members of the Kirinyaga
and residents of Kirinyaga County and of parts of Embu County, draw the attention of the Senate to the following:- 1. THAT, the people of Kirinyaga County have a historical and ancestral claim to the 54,000 acre piece of land known as the Mwea Trust Land situated in Mbeere South sub-county of Embu County. A summary background to the claim is as detailed below. 2. THAT, the land known as Mwea historically belonged to and was occupied by the people of Kirinyaga since time immemorial, when Embu station, which later on, became Embu District was created in 1906, Mwea area which was Ndia Division, remained within the jurisdiction of Fort Hall which later became Murang’a District. Later in 1912 when Ndia Division was moved from Fort Hall to South Nyeri District, the common boundary between South Nyeri and Embu was defined as below:- (i) The River Mukengeria from its source to its junction with River Rutui. (ii) The River Rutui to its confluence with River Thiba. (iii) The River Thiba to its junction with River Tana 3. THAT, in subsequent reports of the colonial government between 1908 and 1923, the boundaries between South Nyeri and Embu districts were affirmed as stretching from River Mukengeria to its junction with River Thiba. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, matters of land and boundaries are issues that are so central to the people of Kenya. They are so intimate that the mention of land in some societies is like scratching a wound. Sometime back, I brought to the attention of the country when we were drafting the Constitution on the issues contained in the Sessional Paper of 2008 which addressed the matters of boundaries and land as from 1895 when Kenya was still a Protectorate of the British rule. What followed thereafter was my being arrested and handed to the courts where I was accused of hate speech for saying the truth. I was tormented for one and a half years. I even lost my position in the Government on issues that were straight-forward and sensitive to Kenyans. This issue will never disappear unless we address it in the legislative assemblies of this country. That reminds me of the concerns of the numbers of counties as created in the Constitution. Many people, including those I represent, never agreed on where they were put. Up to now, they are still lamenting. However, in practice, the majorities always have their way and the minorities are only listened to. This is a tricky situation. I, therefore, welcome the Motion that was brought to this House by Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. We hope that a commission will be set up within the prescribed time. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, six months after we were sworn in, I tried to bring a Motion to this House. However, for very good reasons, I was persuaded to hold on. In spite of that, those Senators who were in Kisumu during the county conference will recall my statement. This is what I said: “The security situation with us now is the Al-Shabaab and cattle rustling in the North Rift. The serious issue which will come up is the question of boundary dispute in this country.” As the Chairperson of the Committee on Security and Foreign Relations, I tried all possible means to bring together the Commissioner of Lands, the Cabinet Secretary (CS) for Land, Housing and Urban Development and the Ministry of Interior and Coordination of National Government, for the Government to take some positive steps to rectify what is going on. As late as yesterday, the Governor for Vihiga was complaining about Kisumu collecting taxes from his own region. This is not the first one. All over the country, there are boundary problems. If this issue is not addressed in good time, my word should be taken, seriously because we shall have wars going on and on in the counties. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Committee which has been given this task should come up with some specific recommendations which will resolve this matter.
Proceed, Sen. Khaniri. It is not that Vihiga County was mentioned, but you are actually the next one to speak.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, thank you for giving me this opportunity to say one or two things. Let me begin by thanking, Sen. Karaba, for presenting this Petition on behalf of his people in Kirinyaga. I echo the words of the wiseman seated behind me, the Senator for Migori, that matters to do with boundaries and land are very sensitive. As we handle these issues, we must be very careful. You will remember that at the beginning of this particular Senate, when we were just sworn in, I was one of the first people to draft a Motion. I brought a Motion regarding the issue of the boundary of Vihiga and Kisumu counties in Maseno. In your wisdom, the Chair and the Rules and Business Committee (RBC) thought that it was such a sensitive matter and that it was not the right time to handle it, just having come from elections. Recently, I also requested for a Statement regarding the brewing tension on that particular boundary. As you have heard Sen. Haji say, my Governor made some comments in reference to this. The tension is very high between the two counties. It is important that this matter is resolved, once and for all, so that we can avoid bloodshed. It is a very sensitive matter. Some of us may not be old enough, but reading from history, the huge junk of Maseno happens to belong to Vihiga County, former Western Province. However, it was hived off and taken to former Nyanza Province. If you heard my Governor, this is what we are rightfully claiming. Article 188(2) that you referred to states: “The boundaries of a county may be altered to take into account— ( e ) the views of the communities affected.” The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I also congratulate the distinguished Senator for Kirinyaga for bringing the views of his people, but further reiterate what my colleagues have said. If you look at the profile of the country, there is likely to be virtually an argument or a dispute between more than 70 per cent of the counties of this country because the creation of them was not arrived at through any scientific process. It was a purely convenient, if not opportunistic decision, that any entity that was a district by 1974 became a county. Three weeks ago, I came from India where the huge State of Uttar Pradesh has just been divided into two. It went through a process that is similar to the provisions of Article 188 of the Constitution. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to urge you, as the head of this House, to hasten the work being done by the Committee on Legal Affairs and Human Rights in bringing a Bill in response to the Motion brought by Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. so that we can set up an independent commission that can then take up and listen to issues relating to boundary disputes. You have heard the arguments going on between Turkana and Pokot, Turkana and Baringo, Turkana and Samburu and many places. As the defenders of counties and county governments, if we do not act with speed and put this commission in place, there will be a lot of tension among our people. I hope when this commission is formed, it will comprise of men and women of integrity, who will sit and listen to the views of wananchi, dismiss what is fallacious and give effect to what is real and factual, so that we resolve this. I hope that within the next two years, we can bring most of these issues to a conclusion so that we can focus on more positive issues.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I strongly support that Petition because it is not only what we are seeing here, but there is much more to come if a situation like this one is not dealt with. There are people, not only in Baringo, but in Mt. Elgon who are supposed to be people of Rift Valley and so on. The issue of boundaries should be looked into very seriously, so that Kenyans belong where they are supposed to be because some are in the wrong places.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I thank the Senator for Kirinyaga for presenting this Petition. As rightly put, we, as a Committee, are aware of the importance of finalizing the process of getting a Bill on this Floor. I report that we already have a first draft that we are looking into. We hope that in the next one month or so, the Bill should come to this House for First Reading. When you have issues to do with county boundaries, I know that we have disputes in over 30 boundaries involving our counties. The temptation can sometimes be, that we think that this is such a big monster that we do not want to confront. We should address the issue of county boundaries, once and for all. My county is experiencing problems with Kisumu and Kericho counties. Sometimes boundaries have economic implications. We have three sugar factories within the sugar belt region. In the process of privatising the sugar factories, Nandi County has a The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Order, Sen. Sang! I know that you wear many hats. However, speak to one issue at any one time.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I initially addressed the House as the Vice Chairperson of the Committee. I am now talking as the Senator for Nandi County. Just to wind up, it is important to address the issue of county boundaries so that the people of Kericho County can have Muhoroni Sugar Company. Nandi County should have Chemelil Sugar Company and Prof. Anyang’-Nyong’o’s county should retain Miwani Sugar Factory. Those are the issues we should address so that we have equity across the three counties. A commitment from me and the Members of the Legal Affairs and Human Rights Committee is that within the next one month or so, we will bring a Bill that seeks to establish an independent commission to look into boundaries coming for its First Reading.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I join the Senator for Kirinyaga and others who have brought up this issue. It appears as if the issue of boundaries is very sensitive. However, because of hurrying to have the Constitution implemented, this matter was not adequately addressed. Fortunately, there is a window bestowed on us through the commission to address the boundary issues. Virtually there is a problem everywhere. We hear about the Pokot verses the Turkana issue among many others. According to the Constitution, there are very many parameters that should be considered, including things like geographical features and the views of communities. Communities should choose where they want to belong. Historical and cultural ties should also be considered so that people feel comfortable. Those who followed the proceedings of the constitution making process will remember discussions on issues of boundaries which were almost concluded. However, unfortunately, instead of correcting the injustices, we went back. The Constitution was supposed to address past injustices. However, as far as boundaries were concerned, we seemed to accept the injustices that were in existence. Previous governments tried to address this by creating districts. However, when counties were created, issues that necessitated creation of districts were overlooked. This is the right time and we should be bold enough to address boundary issues, once and for all.
Order, hon. Senators! We are neither the commission nor do we have a Motion to discuss this matter. Let us raise only a few issues then we proceed.
Asante sana, Bw. Spika. Waswahili husema; “Ukiona mwenzako ananyolewa, tia kichwa chako maji.” Pia wanasema, “ukiona maji ya bahari yametulia, haimaanishi kwamba kina ni kifupi.” Kina chaweza kuwa kirefu sana. Nasema hivyo kwa sababu ninawaunga mkono waheshimiwa Karaba na Mutula Kilonzo, Jnr. Nimekaa hapa na ndugu yangu Sen. Dan Mwazo tukicheka lakini mipaka yetu ina matata. Kuna shida katika kaunti ya Kwale na Taita Taveta. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Hebu tumpongeze Sen. Boy Juma Boy kwa sababu amezungumza kwa kifupi na akataja mambo yote kinaga ubaga.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I stand to express the tragedy of Kisumu County because, at this rate, the county may become non-existent. Now that there is oil that has been discovered in Kisumu, I am afraid that the distinguished Senator from Nandi may even claim kit mikayi. There are many things there. If he continues claiming them, he may be cursed. The point I am making is that there are issues about boundaries which cannot be resolved. I was representing a constituency which consists of two communities, Luos and Luhyas. If you go across to Busia in Western Province, the same issues arise. At one time, we tried to resolve the issues and we felt that if we opened a Pandora’s Box, we would never resolve the issue. I have an area in Ugenya where the community is basically Luhya. They said that they would rather remain in Siaya County. I was taking the position that they should be given their own right to declare where they want to be. We should consider boundaries as bridges and not like the wall we want to build between us and Somalia. In our Constitution, we say that we are a unitary State. The moment you try to have boundaries, these, basically, end up being ethnic boundaries. I do not know whether we want to build one nation, one people or whether we want to move past that. Having said that, the other danger I see is that in the structure of the Constitution, the final arbiter is the National Assembly and the Senate. The complaints should not be made from here. If the judge is the complainant, then there is nobody who will believe that the case will be determined properly. Even the commission will not have the powers to alter the boundaries. The boundaries can only be altered by a resolution of the Senate and the National Assembly. Therefore, I plead with you, as somebody who wants to be a Kenyan more than a Luo, let us use boundaries as bridges and not as a wall that the Jubilee Government wants to build between one friendly African nation and ourselves.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Let me also join my colleagues in thanking Sen. Karaba in bringing this very important petition from the nine clans of the Agikuyu. I want to take this opportunity to address the chamber and to raise a matter of national importance. Two of our communities in Turkana and West Pokot have been fighting thinking that by fighting over boundaries, they will determine them. Sen. Orengo has ably put it that the boundaries will be determined by the two Houses of Parliament. The conflict in Turkana and West Pokot is over boundaries because they have 19 disputed boundaries. We have told them that they cannot fight over boundaries because the Senate and the National Assembly have the final say as far as land disputes are concerned. Mr. Speaker, Sir, we have lost so many lives over land disputes, as you saw in Nadome and Kapedo. We call upon the Committee on Legal Affairs and Human Rights to expedite this process. I know that 50 per cent of cattle rustling problems are based on The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I support my colleagues who have said that we need to address some of these issues that are associated with communities, for example, the boundaries. Although we may think that we do not have an issue and expect the local wananchi to be satisfied, they may not understand what we actually mean. Sometimes you find that some bandits and criminals take advantage and cause havoc in the name of “this is their territory.” It is essential that these issues are addressed, especially in my county as well as Turkana County so that it is easy to pick on and know how the development of the area is done, to the extent that if Pokots are found on the other side of the boundary, just as Sen. Orengo has said, it is easier for them to be administered from Turkana County and vice versa. However, today you may find them on the other side, yet they do not want to follow laws and procedure of that side because they think that they come from the other county and vice versa. Let us look at it and ask the relevant Committee and arm of Government to address it, so that we settle some of these issues. It is easier now to go and fight other problems that have been hiding behind the boundary issues. That is what took me to the Criminal Investigation Department (CID) yesterday where they asked me where I think the boundaries are set. I then wondered why the Government was asking me about boundaries which I do not where they are because it is the government officers who have the maps. We need to save our Government from running business on trial and error basis. We need to identify and come up with proper beacons.. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to support what Sen. Karaba has brought, so that we clearly demarcate some of the boundaries to the satisfaction of the said persons.
Please, proceed Sen. Dullo. However, you have only three minutes because we have exhausted the maximum 30 minutes. What is it, Sen. (Prof.) Anyang’-Nyong’o?
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I had requested to speak, but it seems to have been overlooked yet my county has been mentioned several times. Do I not have the right to reply?
You absolutely have no right to reply, but you have the right to contribute. Sen. (Prof.) Anyang’-Nyong’o, your digital status was wanting. However, since you have complained, it seems to be working now. I can see your request, so I will allow you. I had allocated Sen. Dullo three minutes, but I request her to The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Hainitoshi hiyo. Yeye alikuwa analala. Mimi nitachukua dakika zangu tatu.
Order, Senator! You also came to complain just the same way that he did. What is the difference? Please, proceed, Sen. Dullo.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity. First, I join my colleagues to congratulate both Sen. Karaba and Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. Secondly, I belong to that Committee. However, it is really important for us to fast-track this process because the land is an emotive and sensitive issue. The issue of cattle rustling and fighting that is going on in most parts of this country is as a result of boundaries. I come from Isiolo County and we have a big problem between Isiolo and Meru counties. There is no substantive development that is taking place in Isiolo County currently because of back and forth fighting and erection of barriers by different counties. People are even unable to take their livestock to the market. Finally, it is really important that when this commission is established, we address the historical injustices that actually brought about these boundary disputes in this country.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I support the formation of a commission to look into the issue of boundaries. However, let me appeal to fellow Senators that what we say in this Senate can really either hurt or help this country tremendously. Any emotional statement about boundaries can spark off some violence in this country that we do not really need. Therefore, what is important in the nation is to observe constitutional provisions, that every Kenyan is free to live, move and have property anywhere in this Republic. That is the most important principle. If we are going to think that by settling all the boundary issues, we shall settle the conflict, we shall not. The African countries were not stupid when at the formation of the Organization of African Union (OAU), they said that the boundaries set by the colonialists will remain the same. The boundaries of this nation, as Sen. Wetangula has said, among the counties, if you think that we are going to settle them by getting them correct, I am afraid that we shall not. As wise men and women in this House, the best thing for us is to try to guide our people not to engage in unnecessary conflict. Therefore, some of the statements made in this House with regard to property ownership; is that this should be settled through boundary redefinition are extremely dangerous. I appeal to Senators not to make such inflammatory statements that can endanger this nation.
You have one minute, Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to assure Senators the Committee on Legal Affairs and Human Rights has drafted the second draft of the intended legislation. It is very difficult not to admire Sen. Orengo when he says that we should think about ourselves first. Most important is to use this opportunity because the Committee on Legal Affairs and Human Rights is doing this comprehensively. I am appealing to Senators to now turn into peace ambassadors because what Sen. Orengo said The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Hon. Senators, as we conclude this particular Petition, I want to appreciate because we have had over 10 contributions. That demonstrates the popularity and gravity of this particular issue. I want to thank Sen. Haji and Sen. Khaniri because when they brought these similar Motions in the first year, my office was able to persuade them to put them in abeyance because we felt that we may not look at the matter with sobriety. It is now time this process was commenced. I want to agree with Senators in urging the Committee for Legal Affairs and Human Rights. The Vice Chair talked about one month or so and I want to dissuade him from words “or so” so that it is strictly within one month. You have also seen the importance of some of these duties because they have serious implications. We will need to sort them out early enough before the next elections so that there is time for peace ambassadors to embark on their peace mission. Hon. Senators, before I call the next Order, I have a Statement to make. I will allow the Senate Majority Leader to settle. I also caution Sen. Musila to obey orders.
Hon. Senators, at the sitting of the Senate held on Thursday, 7th May, 2015, Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo rose pursuant to Standing Order No.46 of the Senate Standing Orders, seeking the indulgence of the Senate to make a Personal Statement. He informed the Senate that on that day, he had attended a Kamukunji of the Senate which was held in this Chamber from 11.00 a.m. to 1.30 p.m. He stated that on exiting the Chamber, he met with an officer of the National Police Service (NPS), who identified himself as Corporal Daudi Mutui. He stated that he wished to serve on him “a notice to compel attendance under Section 52(1) of the National Police Act, No.11A of 2011. The notice was issued by Mr. Joseph Ngisa Angasa, a police officer attached to the investigation branch who stated that he was investigating a case of robbery with violence, contrary to Section 295 as read with Section 296(II) – anti-stock theft - contrary to Section 278 of the penal code. The notice went further to compel the Senator to appear at the DCI headquarters at Mazingira House, along Kiambu Road on 8th May, 2015. The Senator stated that the notice was served on him immediately upon exiting from the Chamber at the doors of this Chamber which is stated to be unprocedural. He, therefore, sought the guidance and protection of the Chair, to ensure that what had happened to him does not become the practice in Parliament. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for a detailed exposition of what the rule and the law is to protect Members and the sanctity of this House. As Sen. Orengo has said, it may be appropriate that you may need to give some of these rules again to officers in those departments for them to continue acquainting themselves with the rules. Further, yesterday I presented myself to the Criminal Investigation Department (CID) headquarters. It was almost surprising that immediately I arrived, all those charges were quickly withdrawn because they realised that, first of all, they were all wrong and false in the sense that they related to killings which happened in Nadome. For the information of the House, Nadome is found on the border of Turkana and Baringo counties. I am the Senator for West-Pokot County which is about 600 kilometres away from the said site. It would appear awkward that I would be called to give further information to those deaths. My name has been cleared. However, some of these things that need to be addressed are still underlying. I mentioned to them what the Government needs to do. My brother, Sen. Munyes, Sen. Gideon, a number of other Senators from the North Rift and I, will have a meeting to discuss how some of these problems affecting that region could be resolved.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is not really interesting to listen to some of the things that can happen to Members of this House, knowing what history has, hitherto, projected on similar circumstances. The law was broken by an officer serving summons to a Member of this House. The Member has confessed that he appeared before the CIDs. That is the seriousness of the matter. How do you show extreme displeasure as the Speaker? Maybe by calling upon the arrest of the person who served that summon to a Member of this House because the law was breached. Instead of making general statements, there must be a legal action against the person who breached that law.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. While we appreciate that those charges against our colleague were withdrawn, I still believe that the law was violated. As you correctly put it, we are interested in the act of that service which was done within the precincts of Parliament. Therefore, it is that act that we are asking you, as our Speaker, to protect us from and to issue those remedial measures of punishment.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. This is a matter of concern for Senators in this House.We know what has transpired in the past with regard to members of the security forces of a country entering into the precincts of Parliament. You will notice there is a lot of concern from those of us who are here. We have already seen that the law was broken and we must be seen to be doing something. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. There is somebody in this nation called the Inspector-General (IG) of Police and a body called the National Police Service Commission (NPSC). This fellow who entered this House to serve our colleague is an employee of these two people. Why are we going around that fact? Why can you not direct your letter to the IG and the NPSC and ask them to explain to the nation why a very important law was broken in Parliament by an officer in their service? They should explain why it happened, not just to the Senators, but to the Republic as a whole.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, as the Speaker of this Senate, you would not like to hear that a Senator has been asked to report to a police station and yet you have no knowledge about what the Senator said. You should know whether the summons arise out of the utterances in this House. We know that we enjoy parliamentary privileges. Therefore, in my view, whoever arrested Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo breached parliamentary privileges. The person should be arrested. We should also know who gave the order and whether it is the Inspector-General of Police. For the policemen to walk into the precincts of Parliament, somebody up there must have given them the order. We would like to know who that person is.
Order, Senators! I can see the interest is quite immense. I am sure that you will canvass similar issues. I, therefore, reduce the time for contribution to one minute so that you raise the most burning issues. I will go through the list.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I laud you for the decision that you have made. I declare that I have personally been a victim of a similar occurrence, just like Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo, after the death of the late Member of Parliament for Kabete Constituency, hon. Muchai. It is in the full knowledge of this nation the role that I played in organising all the burials for the four who died. Mr. Speaker, Sir, as I entered this Chamber, one day, I was confronted on the walk-way by a stranger. He produced summons and gave them to me. Upon reading the summons, you will be surprised by what it was about. It read: “We have reason to believe that you have the information or you were directly involved in the murder of the late hon. Muchai.” I was surprised by what the summons said. I immediately called the Inspector General of Police at that particular time and the Director of the Criminal Investigation Department (CID). It was after that, they said that they wanted to get information from all Members of Parliament (MPs) who participated in the burial arrangement to know whether they had any other information. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Your time is up, Senator!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, please, direct that Serjeant-at-Arms should ensure that strangers do not access this premises. They should be detained, if possible.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I laud your statement and extend our sympathies to Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo for the tribulation that he has gone through. I would, however, add, like Sen. (Prof.) Anyang’-Nyong’o, the Senator for Kisumu County has said, that your statement is very good. However, it must go beyond this Chamber. We request you to write to the Attorney-General as the principal legal advisor of Government to properly advise the agencies of the state as to what the law says. I also urge you to copy that letter, or write separately, to the Inspector- General of Police to put his officers under check and order. Equally important, I urge you to tell the Serjeant-at-Arms, like Sen. Wamatangi has said, that strangers should not be allowed to come to Parliament to execute whatever warrants they may have. Mr. Speaker, Sir, as I conclude, things start slowly like this. You have cited the case of the late hon. Shikuku and the late hon. Seroney. Hon. Seroney was, in fact, arrested as he was walking out of that Chair in the procession. Similarly, the late hon. Shikuku was arrested after a Parliamentary sitting for what they spoke in the course of the proceedings. Mr. Speaker, Sir, you know of the case where a stranger sitting in the Public Gallery kept on pointing a gun at the late hon. Anyona as he was contributing on the Floor of the House because he did not like what hon. Anyona was speaking about. The moment we go that direction, even you, yourself, may not be safe.
You do not know that he was arrested before?
In fact, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I had forgotten that, indeed, you were not just arrested; you were frog-marched to some place.
Order, Sen. Wetangula!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, you must use the letter and the spirit of the law to enforce the privileges of Senators. These are not just Senators; they represent large segments of the populations of this country. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I am sorry to rise again. However, there used to a rule in this House which was kept very well. On the procession walk – the route that you follow when you come to the Chamber when the House is in session – not even a police officer was to enter that space. It is only recognised parliamentary orderlies that were supposed to be on the procession space. It is now a habit that you will see many people standing around the Chamber because of its situation and you can never determine what they are up to. That should be looked into for the sake of the protection of this Chamber.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I also join in sympathising with the situation of Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo. I applaud your decision and direction. However, it is very important that this matter be investigated further to its conclusion. This is because we are told that it was a police officer who served him with the summons, but we are not really sure whether it was a police officer or not. In future, it can also happen that somebody will come here masquerading as a police officer when it could be a criminal. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I believe that there is a relevant committee in this House that can handle that matter and even, if possible, try to find out under whose orders that decision was made. As Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo says, he went there and there was nothing more. There is a point in following up that matter. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, like my colleagues, allow me to extend my sympathies to Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the country has started sliding back into the bad old days of 1990s when such things used to be seen. You will remember when five Members of the National Assembly from Narok County were harassed in a similar manner. I just want to use this opportunity to appeal to MPs from Turkana, West Pokot and Baringo to march out of the Jubilee side because you will never represent and defend your people when you sit with them; they are the ones perpetuating the insecurity yet they are incapable of taking care of our pastoralists. Mr. Speaker, Sir, hon. Orengo has suggested correctly that there is need for you to take action. The action that you take against the police should also be duplicated here in Parliament. Why did the officers manning the gate and all points of entry where the police officer passed through allow him in when he had not given the reason why he was coming into this Parliament? I want to believe that the Serjeant-at-Arms knew the rules that you have just read to us before he took up the job. You must punish him.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, for the many years that I was a headmaster, it would be very hard for anybody to arrest a teacher without having to come to my office.
We are sharing experiences. Therefore, any arrest of a Senator in this august House should have been known by you and the gateman. So, for the first culprit to be shown the door is the gateman. Last week, we were told here by Sen. Musila, who is also a Commissioner in the Parliamentary Service Commission (PSC), that all is well with The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Senators, take note also that we should not be repetitive.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, we have known Sen. Lonyangapuo as a peacemaker. So, it was very unfortunate for him to be arrested for what he has not done. This incident shows that security in Parliament premises is wanting. When you walk on the corridors, even on the floor where your office is located, there are no CCTV cameras, unless they are hidden. We need to enhance surveillance. In your ruling, you have said that the findings will come out. However, you also need to tell us how soon you are going to deal with this issue, so that we can know who was involved in the arrest of the Senator.
Order, Sen. Kanainza! Orders do not go forth and back. They only go one way.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, this is a wakeup call. I sympathize with my brother, because we all know his character. It was the wrong person to touch and it is a provocation. We have just returned from India where security is not taken lightly. I see a sinister motive in what happened. It is time that your office acted. I know that there is a new Inspector-General of Police and maybe he does not know his job. Please, remind him on how the Senators are to be treated. A letter from your office should be written to him regarding the same. We are unsafe here in Parliament. We are not sure who the next person to be arrested is. Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. and Sen. Machage know what we saw in the Parliament of India in terms of the security measures put in place. It is not a joke. You feel very protected as a legislator.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to echo the last sentiments of Sen. Kittony. When we went to the Parliament of the Republic of India, we were searched five times before reaching the public gallery. But even then, there were CCTV cameras everywhere where they could see us. They even warned us not to cross our legs because we would be captured on CCTV. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the fact that somebody can be served with an order means that if somebody wanted to harm Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo, he would have done more than serve him with a court order. Secondly, I want to repeat what Sen. Wetangula has said; that in fact, there is more than one person who violated the law, including the persons who allowed access to this premises. On the proposal by Sen. Orengo, I would add that your letter is like a ruling. First, I would like to propose that, just like the Republic of Australia, we should have nice rulings of the Speaker, so that the next Parliament can quote you, the way you have quoted hon. Kaparo. I would also suggest that your letter be sent to the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) because I think that is where the violation should be investigated. Lastly, somehow as Senators in this Republic, we look like very soft underbellies. If this had happened in the National Assembly, there would be hue and cry and many other things that they would say and do, which I will not repeat here. It is time that we The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Order, Senators! First, Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo’s Statement was made on Thursday and I was to make my Statement yesterday, only that he was not here. So, that was just the position in terms of procedure. We have launched investigations so that we can now fully understand what actually transpired. The outcomes of those investigations will enable us to know what kind of action to take against whom. So, I just want to assure you that the Chair takes the privileges and immunities of Members very seriously because it is so fundamental to our business and the law is very clear. So, whoever breached the law will meet the full force of the law. Thank you. Next Order!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to lay the following Papers on the Table of the Senate today, Wednesday 13th May---
Order, Sen. Chiaba! That is not the Table of the Senate. That is your own desk.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I speak with authority now, as the Chairman. I beg to lay the following Papers on the Table of the Senate today, Wednesday 13th May, 2015:- REPORT OF THE TRANSPORT COMMITTEE ON THE ONGOING CONSTRUCTION OF THE SOUTHERN BYPASS Report of Standing Committee on Roads and Transportation on the inspection visit to the ongoing Southern Bypass road construction in Kikuyu Town. REPORT OF THE TRANSPORT COMMITTEE ON THE STUDY TOUR TO QATAR AND SINGAPORE Report of the study tour to Qatar and Singapore by the Standing Committee on Roads and Transportation from 24th October to 3rd November, 2014.
REPORT OF COMMITTEE ON DELEGATED LEGISLATION ON THE PUBLIC FINANCE MANAGEMENT REGULATIONS, 2015 AND LEGAL NOTICE ON THE DECLARATION The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to lay the following Paper on the Table of the Senate today, Wednesday 13th May, 2015:- Report of the Sessional Committee on Delegated Legislation on:- (1) The Public Finance Management (National Government) Regulations, 2015. (2) The Public Finance Management (County Governments) Regulations, 2015. (3) The Legal Notice on the Declaration of National Government Entities (state organs).
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to lay the following Paper on the Table:- The performance Report of the Ministry of Energy and Petroleum, in accordance with Article 153(4)(b) of the Constitution of Kenya for the period of 1st July to 31st December, 2014.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, on behalf of the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget, I beg to lay the following Papers on the Table:- (i) The Annual Estimates of the expenditure for the three Arms of Government for the year 2015/2016. (ii) The medium term, the annual estimates of revenues, loans and grants for the year 2015/2016.
Order Members, because of the three Bills, we will not take response to Statements. We will only take requests. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I wish to seek a Statement from the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on National Security and Foreign Relations. In the Statement, I would like the Chairperson to state the following:- (1) What boundary disputes exist between the Republic of Kenya and the neighbouring state of Somalia, Ethiopia, South Sudan and Uganda? (2) If it is true that those disputes exist, what action has the Kenyan Government taken to resolve these international disputes? (3) Finally, whether Kenya has completed the boundary status report and deposited boundary dispute instruments with the African Union (AU) before the deadline of 2018? Mr. Speaker, Sir, my county is affected by this boundary disputes. We all know of the Elemi Triangle, the border of Uganda under the Uganda Escarpment which affects West Pokot. We know of disputes in Migingo which have not been resolved. There is a deadline with the African Union (AU) for every State to determine their territories. It seems from what I have heard, other countries have deposited those instruments. It is Kenya which has not deposited their instruments. We fear to lose the Elemi Triangle. The people in Turkana fear; they are not sure whether they are Kenyans or South Sudanese. As I speak-----
Sen. Munyes, you are exceeding the Statement as approved. GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS (GMO) TECHNOLOGY IN THE COUNTRY
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise pursuant to Standing Order No.45(2)(b) to seek a Statement from the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Agriculture, Livestock and Fisheries regarding the Genetically Modified Organisms(GMO) technology in this country. In the Statement, the Chairperson should explain:- (1) The Government of Kenya position on the use of GMOs technology for food production. (2) State whether Water Efficient Maize for Africa (WEMA) is a GMO crop and if so, what is the Government’s position on its production and use; and, (3) He should also explain the steps that the Government is taking to ensure food security in the country.
Order Members, we need the Chair for the Committee on National Security and Foreign Relations to respond to Sen. Munyes and the Chair for the Committee on Agriculture, Livestock and Fisheries to respond to Sen. Kisasa. In their absence, I will direct that they respond in two weeks’ time. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I stand in conformity with the Standing Order No.45 and Standing Order No.1 to seek a very urgent Statement from the Chairperson of the Committee on National Security and Foreign Relations on the unfolding events in the Republic of Burundi. The breaking news messages indicate that the military has staged a coup in Burundi. In ordinary circumstances when such coups are committed, there is lawlessness, breakdown of law and order, danger to human life and the security of property. I recall a couple of days ago when you as the Chair of the FP-ICGLR parliamentary leadership, urged the East African Community (EAC) leaders to step in and resolve the issues in Burundi. Three weeks ago, I travelled to Burundi under the auspices of the United Nations (UN) to try to see how we could resolve the impasse' following the declaration of the President to run for a third term. Obviously, the East African presidents dragged their feet. I understand that they are now in Dar es salaam with the President who may have been deposed in Burundi trying to resolve the problem; but coming too little too late. My statement would require the Chair to urgently inform this House and the country the status of the safety of our nationals in the Republic of Burundi. We have an embassy in Bujumbura and we have many Kenyans who are either doing business or working through bilateral engagements or working as teachers in universities, schools and other tertiary colleges. We want to hear from the Government how urgently they can evacuate Kenyan nationals back to Kenya until the situation normalizes before they can go back to carry on with their duties because of the fluid situation given the genocidal history of that region, particularly the endless conflict between the Hutu and the Tutsi communities. Lastly, how are the East African Region and the African Union positioning themselves to forestall any possible mass loss of lives? Today, at 12.00 noon, the BBC was announcing that for the first time demonstrators that were armed with all manners of crude weapons had entered the city centre. This would invariably be followed by looting and attacks on innocent peoples and Kenyans could be caught in the cross fire because I know we have Kenyans banks in Burundi and Kenyans running eateries, restaurants, hotels, bars and other businesses. More importantly, there are many young Kenyan girls and boys who work in hotels in Burundi like they do all over the East African Region. This Statement is so important that I would request that you direct that it be issued tomorrow because Kenyans are anxious to know about the safety of the compatriots.
What is it, Sen. Orengo?
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I also request that in giving this Statement, the Chairperson of the Committee on National Security and Foreign Relations should inform the House whether the Kenyan Government is still in the mode of “wait and see” policy in the execution of its foreign policy. My understanding is that Kenya being what it is, particularly within the new Constitution; Kenya should assume leadership at least in terms of values and principles. We saw heads of Governments in the region, for example, Tanzania who came out firmly to tell the Burundi President that he could not go for a third term. Similarly, this was said by the Government of the United States of America (USA), the African Union (AU) and the United Nations (UN). As we are watching other The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Order, Sen. Orengo! Statements Time is a time to request for Statements, it is not to justify them.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am not justifying. The Chairperson should explain why Kenya failed to demonstrate by saying what should have been said at the right time.
Order, Senators! Ideally, Statements should be made by one person. We have acquired a habit of riding on to the extent that sometimes they refuse to---
Order, I am now disallowing this. So, there will only be those two related to that particular one. Next Order.
Yes, sorry. Proceed, Chairperson of the Committee on National Security and Foreign Relations.
Order, Senators! It is so directed, the Statement will be responded to tomorrow afternoon. Is there any Chairperson in the House? Sen. Karaba has been quite enthusiastic.
What is it, Sen. Karaba? Take advantage of this, you will be our envoy.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, since I am the one who will be a saviour, I would like to support what my friend Sen. Wetangula said. I want also to note that next month we will have the East and Central African Schools sports competitions in Rwanda. I am not sure whether by that time, there will be order in the neighbouring country. I wish that the same be included in the Statement so that those games are rescheduled to another country.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I will make sure that by tomorrow I will have looked for the Chairperson. I do not know what happens now in this case. I will make The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
It is so ordered. What is it, Sen. Mugo? Is it a point of order?
No, Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am seeking a Statement.
Okay, let us take the point of order first. Proceed, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale. I will come back to you, Sen. Mugo.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, do you notice that with the writing clear on the Order Paper that this is the time for Statements? There is no single Chairperson on the Jubilee side other than Sen. Karaba. If it pleases you to know, this has been the habit, not just for a few weeks, but for many months that we have sat in this House. As a result of the same, very many of the statements we have asked for, are pending for a period of more than three months.
Order, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale! Chairpersons of Committees are not confined to one side only. There are Chairpersons next to you, behind you---
Order! I am not going to take any count because I am not privy to whether it has been delegated to you, or otherwise. We always talk about the Chairperson, Vice Chairperson or a Member of the Committee. Let us cross that bridge once we reach there. Secondly, I made an observation that at 4.00 p.m. we will not take any Statements. We are only allowing the requests because of the other business before us. So, maybe they took that into consideration. I think for now, there could be mitigating factors. Proceed, Sen. Mugo. OUTBREAK OF CHOLERA IN THE COUNTRY
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to seek a Statement from the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Health regarding the recently reported outbreak of cholera in the country. In the Statement, the Chairperson should state:- (1) Whether devolution of health services in the country could be attributed to the rising cases of cholera which is preventable. (2) Whether the devolved units have the requisite capacity to manage such health problems and; (3) The circumstances leading to the emergence of cholera cases in areas that have not been affected by the disease in the past. If the cholera question persists, the country risks being placed under the list of countries that require vaccination for cholera before citizens travel to other countries or before our guests come to this country. We should take action.
Where is the Chairperson of the Committee on Health? Proceed, Vice Chairperson, Sen. Kisasa. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, we will issue the Statement in two weeks’ time.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, on behalf of the Chairperson of this Committee.
Order, Senator! You need to appreciate normal things from emergencies.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, on behalf of the Chairperson of the Committee on Health, we humbly request to give the report within one week.
Order! I direct that just like the one for Burundi, you are going to do the same tomorrow.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, tomorrow?
Maybe you do not know what you are talking about? This is cholera!
Mr. Speaker, Sir, we have that information as a Committee. So it is possible, we will give the Statement tomorrow.
It is so ordered. Next order!
She is a nurse! Wewe unajua haya maneno.
Order, Senators! I have directed that the Statement be brought tomorrow afternoon. Next order!
Who had the Floor? They concluded? Proceed, Sen. Musila.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, I join my colleagues in applauding the introduction of this very important Bill. As I say that, we are not establishing the Office of the Auditor-General for the first time. We have always had Auditor-Generals. The problem is that the Office of the Auditor-General has never functioned as it should for many reasons. All the committees which look into accounts of Government Ministries, as a matter of fact, do postmortems of what has been done for many years. We know that even now, as I speak, the audit that is ready is that of the Financial Year 2012/2013. That The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Speaker. Did you hear what my friend, Commissioner Musila, attributed to this House? He said that one of our Senators was embarrassed in Kiambu by a Governor. As a result of that, he says that he fears to be embarrassed elsewhere. Could he elaborate?
Sen. Musila, could you elaborate your claim? Is that a serious claim?
Madam Temporary Speaker, it is very easy to substantiate because the person who made that statement is none other than Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale. He said that he was told by the Governor for Kiambu that he would be dealt with if he continued to probe matters concerning that county. He is sitting right here. If anybody is in doubt, he can confirm what I have said.
Hon. Senator, thank you for that information. The Committee on Devolved Governments should investigate that matter on security and harassment and report back to this House. Interrogate that matter on harassment. We should have the full details of what happened between the Governor of Kiambu and the Senator for Kiambu. We want to get to the bottom of that so that a repeat is stopped. How long should we give you? Is one week enough?
Madam Temporary Speaker, give me seven days.
Very well. You are the Chairman of the Committee on Devolved Governments. This matter rests squarely in your committee.
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Speaker. As far as I know, the issue concerning Kiambu County is a security matter. Somebody was threatened. We would be happy to deal with matters of fostering good relations between the Governor and the Senator. However, when it moves to the stage of one being threatened, that becomes a security issue. The Committee on National Security and Foreign Relations should take over.
Senator, I still feel that your Committee is the relevant one. If you feel that there is an aspect of security, you will then involve the Senate Committee on National Security and Foreign Relations. However, on matters that relate to the Governor and the Senator, your Committee should deal with it. We will give you seven days. You should report to us on Wednesday, next week at 2.00 p.m.
Madam Temporary Speaker, as I said, the Senator will have a very easy time in investigating this matter because the culprit is just here. He is very ready to substantiate what happened. He is the culprit and the victim. I would like to conclude by applauding this Bill and to say that it will be useless to have the Bill and to give the Auditor-General all the powers as it is stated in this Bill if we do not give him funding. Funding is important. He has gone on record to say that he has been unable to function because the National Assembly has not allocated his office sufficient funds. We urge the National Assembly that this Bill, even if we pass it, will have no meaning if the Office of the Auditor-General is not funded adequately in order to perform the duties it is supposed to. We want to ensure that the Auditor-General does his work quickly so that we do not have any backlog of unaudited work. When he audits, reports should be submitted to Parliament as it is stipulated in the Bill and action taken within the framework or the days The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Please, proceed, Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr., the Senator for Makueni County.
.: Thank you, Madam Temporary, Speaker. Please allow me to begin with a sad story. In the ongoing Commission hearings to dissolve Makueni County, the Auditor-General has submitted a report and at the bottom of it---
Order, Senators! There is a Senator on the Floor. Please, consult in low tones.
.: Madam Temporary, Speaker, at the bottom of that report, the Auditor-General says that the audit for Makueni County for the Financial Year, 2013/2014 is not ready. This, therefore, presents a tragic situation that when a county like mine is facing all sorts of issues, including allegations of misappropriations all over the place, we do not have a method of dealing with the issue. So, for some reason, the Commission and this Senate will not be able to make a determination based on the report of the Auditor-General. It is a sad story and sad situation. If there is one function that is under attack, it is the function of oversight. That is why the Governor of Kiambu County, if what Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale said is anything to go by, has the audacity to threaten him. This is because the governors have acquired a larger than life attitude because there is nothing that Senators can do after all, even if we accused them of misappropriation, misapplication and many other things. Madam Temporary, Speaker, I wondered aloud when I saw this Bill, why the last Parliament thought that this Bill should come last in terms of order. Some of the things that Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale has been attempting to do would have been very easy had Parliament thought it wise – and Parliament is forever wise – that this Bill should have been in place before we started the county governments or other devolution units. Just for the record, I am also happy to report that the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget, has conducted public hearings, the public has given their views on this Bill and we will be tabling the report tomorrow. Madam Temporary, Speaker, I just want to highlight key issues which I think should be addressed. In 2004, I represented Governor Mulei who was fired from the Central Bank for one reason which is that he managed to unravel very huge financial irregularities of a certain bank. How did he do so? Governor Mulei picked his son, Sila Mulei, who came up with a software which plugged into that bank’s system and was able in a flash to pinpoint the irregularities in that bank. For that reason, Governor Mulei was suspended and later fired under very unkind circumstances. My point is that, although I agree with Sen. Musila and the rest of the Senators who say that we must give this office adequate funding, the solution to his work - and Sen. ((Prof.) Lesan and Sen. Kanainza can confirm because they sit in our Committee on Information and Technology - once The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Madam Temporary Speaker, I also rise to lend my voice to this very important Bill. When this Bill was originally considered by the National Assembly, it had several provisions which were deemed to be not in compliance with the Constitution. Looking at this Bill as passed by the National Assembly, it is an improved version of the Bill that was originally tabled. The matter does not end there. It should be understood by this House that one of the most important tools that Parliament uses in performing its functions under the Constitution which includes oversight is the office of the Auditor-General. If the office of the Auditor-General is not functioning properly and effectively, then it would be lost to Parliament on how to perform its oversight functions. Over the years, the Executive made attempts to undermine the constitutional authority of that office and by extension Parliament by ensuring that this office was emasculated and therefore, its effectiveness as per the Constitution was not in conformity with the Constitution itself. This is in terms of timelines, reporting and such like requirements. Madam Temporary Speaker, unless we look at some of the provisions which are contained in this Bill, we may think we are doing a great job by passing this Bill but there are provisions in this Bill, in my view, that would actually bring that office into a situation where they will have to comply with whatever the Executive requires. My starting point is that the Constitution itself requires that Parliament must give adequate funds to independent offices including the office of the Auditor-General. It is a constitutional obligation that in the performance, duties and functions of the office of the Auditor-General, parliament itself must determine that it has given adequate funds for the office of the Auditor-General to function. If you look at this Bill generally and I do not want to go into specific provisions because that would take a lot of time, it would seem to suggest that the function is probably left to the Auditor-General himself and to Treasury to eventually make a determination whether or not funds are being given according to estimates. Even if the funds are not adequate, there is no obligation by Parliament to make sure that the funding is adequate. Therefore, I would urge this Parliament, including the Senate, that this being such an important office, whenever we are confronted with estimates regarding the Republic of Kenya and its departments, we better be on the look out to determine whether we have indeed given that office adequate funds. There are provisions in this Bill that if you look at them carefully, they claw back on the provisions of the Constitution that require this office to be independent. What I have in mind is that there is a body established under this Bill, in Part III, Clause 4 of what is called “the establishment of the Audit Advisory Board”. You can see in that clause that some of the offices represented in that board include the office of the Attorney-General which is part of the Executive. I wonder whether by extension and by use of this particular mechanism, the office of the Auditor- General will be represented in the office of the Attorney-General or the office of the Director of Public Prosecution. The other public body that is required to be part of the membership of that board is the chairperson of the Public Service Commission. This is a commission that is also The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Senator. Do you oppose the Bill?
Madam Temporary Speaker, I oppose the Bill.
Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker, for this opportunity to contribute to this Bill. I join my colleagues who have spoken, particularly those who have supported this Bill, because I also support it. This is a very important Bill. We have seen and watched as Members of Parliament, as resources of this country are wasted away. The country bleeds due to The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Speaker. I would like to draw your attention to the fact that Senators are making very important points as you can witness from the presentations of Sen. Orengo on areas that require possible amendments. However, the Senate Majority Leader, who is supposed to be taking notes, is not here. For all we care, we are talking to ourselves. Madam Temporary Speaker, probably, you could guide the House. You know the tradition of Parliament that the Mover must be there to listen and take notes.
Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, that is a good observation. His absence does not stop us from proceeding with the debate. However, it would be in order if he were here. I will communicate the same to the whips to ensure that the leadership of the House is always present when we make important contributions. Nevertheless, we have to proceed.
Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. Could somebody bring him here?
Madam Temporary Speaker, perhaps, we may have to ring the Bell as we do when we want to vote to get them inside here. However, as you have rightly said, we can continue with the debate irrespective of the presence or absence of the Mover of the Bill. Madam Temporary Speaker, I want to raise only one point with regards to audit. I noticed that in terms of employment of the personnel who will work in the area of auditing, one of the requirements is that they must hold a degree in finance, accounting or economics. We know the challenges of auditing. We know that as Kenya begins exploitation of natural resources, the form of auditing natural resources should not be the same as auditing cash money or material for equipment. For example, when oil is mined from the ground, it is not as pure as the one we see at petrol stations or outlets but a murky mixture of soil, water, oil and all sorts of things. It is our capacity to audit the material at that stage that will allow us earn as much as possible. Madam Temporary Speaker, we are aware of some African countries that are oil producers. However, some of them are the poorest because they are cheated out of their resources since they have no specialised units to audit materials such as oil. This would The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Madam Temporary Speaker, this Bill is critical. It intends to provide for the functions and powers of the Auditor-General according to Article 229 of the Constitution. If we get it wrong, it means that there will be no oversight in this country; corruption will thrive. Let me just point out to Members that a good football team, however, good the players are, without a good coach, that team cannot win. Therefore, a good Senate and National Assembly, however endowed, unless you have got the technical bench of the office of the Auditor-General with this legal instrument, cannot oversight the Government. I would like to laud the presence of this Bill but, unfortunately, tell the Senate Majority Leader that he is not taking us seriously. The views that we are giving are meant to enrich this Bill. Since he is not listening to us and we see so many faults in it, I have no option but to oppose the Bill until he moves it in an amended form, and I have reasons. The first reason is that no member of the Executive would like to be audited. I will tell you the story of the Seventh Parliament, when the Controller and Auditor-General made a report concerning the investment of funds at Teleposta, running in hundreds of millions of shillings and took it to the Treasury. The Minister for Finance refused to bring it to Parliament. The Controller and Auditor-General then took personal initiative and brought it to the office of the Clerk. The then Chair of the Public Accounts Committee did his work and when the report indicted the Minister for Finance, the following day, at 1.00 p.m. President Moi appointed the Chairman of the Committee to be a Minister, so that he could not move that report. Another example is in the County Government of Kakamega. The chairman of the committee on finance resigned yesterday because he was being pushed by the Governor to append his signature and concurrence to misappropriation. They do not want to be audited; we just have to face it. We have to divorce the executive from this office because this is our technical bench. I would like to draw the attention of Members to Clause 4 (3) of this Bill. We are being told that the Office of the Auditor-General shall ensure a reasonable access to its services in all parts of the country. That is good. But then the Bill goes further to say that this office is free to establish branches across the country. The risk of this is that if you allow the Auditor-General to open offices in those counties, then you are opening a window for compromise by the auditee. The auditees in the counties have got internal auditors. Why would we take their officers of the Kenya National Audit Office? Madam Temporary Speaker, in Clause 7 (1) (e), the Bill proposes that the Auditor-General will issue the audit report in accordance with Article 229 of the Constitution of Kenya. Without providing funds, the Auditor-General cannot meet this provision. If there is any doubt on the part of the Jubilee Government, they should be aware that the accounts of the year 2013/2014 are yet to be laid in this House by the Auditor-General, yet the deadline was 31st December, 2014, the reason being that he does not have enough resources at his disposal. So, we should match these provisions by giving him the proper budget and necessary human resource. Madam Temporary Speaker, I want to laud the provision in Clause 7 (2) where they have given room for the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee in the National Assembly, the County Public Accounts and Investments Committee in the The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Your time is up, Senator. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
On a point of order, Madam Temporary Speaker.
What is your point of order?
I was contemplating that during the Committee stage, I would then make a written amendment which I will give to the office of the Clerk. I think I still have an opportunity.
That is still in order.
Madam Temporary Speaker, thank you for giving me this chance to say something about this Bill---
Sen. Karaba, you had risen on an intervention according to my screen. I was giving you the Floor not to contribute because you are not even appearing on the screen for contribution, you had requested for intervention.
Madam Temporary Speaker, these machines are not working properly, you should reckon that we are still learning.
Senator, take it to the attention of the Clerks or the Serjeants-at-Arms to help you. Otherwise, you are still not on my screen and I will give the Floor to Sen. Ndiema.
So, in view of the problems we are facing---
Senator, take your seat and you will be assisted by one of the orderlies.
Madam Temporary Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this very important Bill, which I support provided that the necessary amendments are brought into place at the appropriate time. The role of the audit office cannot be overemphasized in this time and era. A financial system cannot be effective without an efficient and capable audit office. The task of the auditor is enormous especially now, because previously the Auditor-General was dealing with limited funds to audit, he was also auditing one Government but we now have 48 governments and it is the same Auditor-General who is supposed to audit. In addition, there are so many other new commissions that have been established under the Constitution and their audit again largely lies on that office. Compounding that is a complicated situation that we are in currently, in terms of rampant theft of Government property, misappropriation and fraud which previously was not at the level it is but it is something that we have admitted and it is a threat to development of our country which we must tackle. The only office that is mandated by law or is expected to address abuses by public servants or offices is that office of the Auditor-General. Therefore, it is necessary that they are facilitated in terms of necessary and proper legislation to empower them to carry out their functions and also be provided with adequate resources, considering the amount of work that they have now and the funding level that they get. Sometimes when we meet the Auditor-General, we get the feeling that The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you Madam Temporary Speaker. Just as my previous colleague, I also stand to support this Bill, the Public Audit Bill (National Assembly Bill No.38 of 2014). As suggested by Sen. (Dr.) Khwalwale, some amendments may be introduced because of some very glaring issues that need correction so that the Bill can assist Kenyans. Clause 4(2) talks about the establishment of the Office of the Auditor-General in ensuring reasonable access to its services in all parts of the Republic. That means that today, as proposed and created by the Constitution 2010, we have 47 county governments The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Your time is up Senator. I now call upon the Mover to reply.
(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Thank you, Madam Temporary, Speaker. I take this opportunity to thank Senators for the rich debate on this important Bill which will improve the efficiency and accountability of public money at the national and county governments. I think that during the Committee Stage, we will enrich and debate on this Bill. I am sure that most of the critical comments will come at that level because we will look at the Bill clause by clause. Madam Temporary, Speaker, without much ado, I beg to move.
Is there any specific request you want to make? The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Yes, Madam Temporary, Speaker. Given that we do not have the numbers to vote, I rise on Standing Order No.54(3) to request the Chair to defer voting on this Bill.
Voting is deferred to tomorrow because it has a constitutional deadline.
(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Madam Temporary Speaker, I beg to move that the Fair Administrative Action Bill (National Assembly Bill No. 10 of 2015) be now read a Second Time. This is another Bill that has a constitutional deadline of 27th May, 2015. It is, therefore, a Bill that this House must pass with utmost urgency, considering that we expect the Committee Stage next week. As much as we would want to enrich or contribute to this debate, at this Second Reading stage, I beg that we concentrate on the general spirit of the Bill. Madam Temporary Speaker, this is a very short Bill. However, its brevity must not be confused with its importance. This Bill is so important and if I were asked if there is one Bill that touches on the lives of each and every Kenyan in every part of this country, it is this Bill. It gives effect to a very important human right which is found in Article 47 of our Constitution; that is the right of every Kenyan to get fair administrative action. The Bill deals with powers, functions and duties exercised by authorities or quasi-judicial institutions. When a public institution makes certain administrative decisions that affect the rights of Kenyans, what must they ensure? That is simply put. The question this Bill is trying to answer is; what are the procedural guarantees that every Kenyan enjoys from an administrative body, institution or public official who have decision-making power? These are the decisions that impact on the right of Kenyans in question. We are talking of issues to do with employment; when a decision is taken to employ or not to employ somebody, that is an administrative action. What guarantees does somebody whose request to get employed is not favourable have? What procedural guarantees are they entitled to? Other discretionary administrative actions like licensing also should be considered. If you want to get a licence to operate a business or you want to undertake a certain activity, there would be a body that licenses that public activity. When they make a decision one way or the other, what must they ensure to protect the rights of Kenyans? These include promotions at work places and so forth. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker, for giving me the chance to contribute to this Bill and second it. This is a very important Bill as the Mover, the Senate Majority Leader, has stated and it should be disseminated to the entire country. It protects the human rights of Kenyans and everybody must know that they have a right to be heard, and to access all important documents that affect them. The Bill seeks to protect Kenyans from their rights being violated. I would have used the word “abuse” because it is still abuse but let it be “from being violated.” Madam Temporary Speaker, this issue of being sacked through the media, for example, you hear about it on the radio, see it on television, receive a text message on your phone or through the famous social media; that can really tear you apart and hard; some people may even commit suicide and others give up and suffer for no good reason, just because they were not given fair trial. Fair trial means ample preparation. You are given all the information, called and given the chance to participate and hear all the allegations against you and all the things you are being accused of disobeying. In a nutshell, it protects the rules of natural justice. Madam Temporary Speaker, if there is anything that I have learnt in legal practice, it is the rule of natural justice. My former boss, now Justice Lee Muthoga, would always fight for anybody and everyone and insist that the rule of natural justice must be obeyed. Even our Coalition for Reforms and Democracy (CORD); its co- principals have always preached this law of the rule of natural justice that must be given to every Kenyan. That is why in many instances, they have been heard to say that this issue of being accused, arrested and put behind bars for 90 or 30 days without knowing what is happening, is what this Bill seeks to protect. This morning, we had a public hearing on this issue. The public gave us their contributions. There are many issues that need to be amended and a few administrative repetitions that we shall sort out at the Committee stage. There have been contributions that judicial review should be a preserve of the High Court. We have laws which are already in existence. We have the Civil Procedure Act, and the civil procedure rules that govern judicial review. We also have the Chief Justice Rules that also take into account the issue of the judicial review. What I am trying to say is that by the end of the day, all the relevant laws will be harmonised. Once they are harmonised, then Kenyans will not be confused at all. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Madam Temporary Speaker, I stand to support this Bill. Madam Temporary Speaker, I listened to the Senate Majority Leader and the issues he raised. Listening carefully, I looked at where this country has come from and tried to compare it with where we are today. Kenya has travelled through difficult terrains in terms of leadership and administration. Madam Temporary Speaker, it is unbelievable that we can have such a Bill which goes deep inside to allow certain issues to be dealt with; whether passed by the Government, administrators or a group of people that has decided to mistreat a certain person or group of Kenyans anywhere in this country. Madam Temporary Speaker, there used to be times where one could be arrested. If you asked why you were being arrested, you were told: “The authority has given instructions and that is all.” The other thing you would hear is that, “utajibu mbele” (You will answer when we get there). Therefore, this Bill provides an exit window for Kenyans to query from the top. When I say from the top, I mean from the top leadership in this country to the bottom-line. There will be no issue that will be raised to stop any Kenyan from seeking clarification or to be told why certain things have happened. Madam Temporary Speaker, today, people will apply for jobs; applications will be presented. With the knowledge Kenyans have, they can line up candidates who qualified and the ones disqualified. Kenyans can read between the lines and know that there were 200 applicants and 110 did not qualify, only 90 qualified. Their qualifications are screened and they are shortlisted on the basis of “who is who” with no other reason whatsoever. A university graduate who has just left university stands no chance. Whenever they ask why people with lower qualifications were taken, they are told that it was the decision of the board. That now will be a thing of the past. Madam Temporary Speaker, if there is a dispute today, a group of people will sit and make a final decision. Most people who feel aggrieved have nowhere to go. They live with whatever decision has been taken. This Bill provides an opportunity for people to go to court and have all issues addressed administratively. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.
Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker, for giving me this opportunity. I rise to thank the Mover of this Bill. Having listened to what he has said, this Bill gives us direction in our deliberations as a country, because it allows one to be heard. You can also have the issue of your assets discussed amicably. I think we are headed in the right direction and the Mover of the Bill was wise to bring it. Madam Temporary Speaker, I support the Bill.
Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I would like to congratulate the Senate Majority Leader for bringing this Bill to the House, which seeks to protect the interests of the Kenyan citizens. When you look at, for instance, the hiring of staff, sometimes it is done discriminatively. At one time, there was a case where a young man with a Masters and CPA III went for an interview. He passed and was asked to go for a medical checkup. But when he reported, he was told that there was no job for him. There are many other cases. There is also a case of a lady whom I tried to assist to get a job. She went for an interview and passed. She was told to report to work the following Monday. When she reported to work on the said Monday, the Managing Director looked at her passport and was taken aback. This is because initially they had thought that she was from a certain tribe. He told her that there was no job for her. So, this Bill seeks to bring fairness in the manner in which we have been doing things. Also, if you look at the manner in which organizations have been dealing with staff, you will find that sometimes people are sacked or retired for no good reason. They are not given a fair chance to explain their cases. They could have paid their mortgages halfway and have children, but since somebody somewhere thinks that they are non- performers, they are sacked. So, this is a very good Bill. It is going to promote cohesion and unite us, as a country, as we move forward. It is very unfair for employers, for instance, who hold key positions to discriminate against our children who do not know the tribal boundaries.
Order, Senator! You will have 13 minutes to contribute when the debate on this Bill resumes.
Hon. Senators, it is now time to interrupt the business of the Senate. The House, therefore, stands adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday 14th May, 2015, at 2.30 p.m. The Senate rose at 6.30 p.m. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.