Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to lay the following Paper on the Table of the Senate today, Thursday, 21st April, 2016:- Report on the Petition on the alleged violation by the National Registration Bureau (NRB) of the right of the residents of Vihiga County to registration and issuance of National Identity Cards.
Thank you, Senator. Do we have any other Paper to be laid? Next Order. Hon. Senators, there are five statements to be issued. Before we get to that, are there any Senators seeking Statements?
Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Proceed, Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise pursuant to Standing Order No.45(2)(b) to seek a statement from the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Labour and Social Welfare regarding the conduct of China Jiangsu International (K) Limited, a Chinese company contracted---
Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo, something seems to be wrong with your microphone or the system. Could you try another microphone? Please move to the dispatch box.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I hope this one works. I rise pursuant to Standing Order No.45(2)(b) to seek a Statement from the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Labour and Social Welfare regarding the conduct of China Jiangsu International (K) Limited, a Chinese Company contracted to construct the Muruny-Siyoi Dam in Lelan Ward, West Pokot County. In the Statement, the Chairperson should:- (a) State if he is aware that China Jiangsu International (K) Limited which is the main contractor, has 35 workers of Chinese origin, some of whom are alleged to have no valid immigration documents. The company has allegedly been dismissing its workers, especially, the locals; discriminating against them and abusing young children. (b) Explain why the company employs non-locals for jobs that should ordinarily be reserved for locals, such as drivers, lab technicians and messengers. (c) State why the company has opened a bar, the only bar in the entire ward against the wishes of the locals who are known to abhor the sale and consumption of alcohol, thereby breaking the laid down traditions of Lelan Ward. (d) Explain what steps the Government will take to help the locals because the Resident Engineer is said to be arrogant and does not have good relations with them. (e) Cite Corporate Social Responsibility (CSR) activities, if any, that the company has undertaken since it started work in 2013.
Sen. Obure, do you want to ride on that or to make a Statement?
Do not jump the gun. Where is the Chairperson of the Committee on Labour and Social Welfare? Is there a Committee Member of this Committee?
Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Will you commit your Committee? Please, tell us when you will issue that Statement.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it will be issued in one week’s time.
Good. It will be issued in one week’s The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir---
Order, Sen. Njoroge. That is why I asked you whether you will commit your Chairman. There are so many things that need to be examined so that we get an answer. If you can do it in one week, that will be very good.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am sorry. I request for three weeks. A lot is required.
I give you two weeks.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, thank you.
Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo, I hope two weeks is okay. Proceed, Sen. Obure. PROVISION OF AFFORDABLE AND RELIABLE POWER SUPPLY IN KISII COUNTY
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I rise pursuant to the Standing Order 45 (2) (b) to seek a Statement from the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Energy regarding the provision of affordable and reliable power supply. In the Statement, the Chairperson should:- (a) Explain why despite promises made by the national Government to introduce various interventions to deal with frequent power blackouts in Kisii and its environs, the situation continues to worsen day by day. (b) Explain the cause of the increase in billings in both domestic and commercial entities in the last three months. (c) Explain the measures that the Government intends to put in place to abolish the numerous charges loaded onto electricity bills such as fuel cost, forex adjustment, inflation adjustments and maximum month deviations, among other charges. (d) Explain what the Government is doing to ensure that the institutions that are charged with the mandate of energy generation and distribution are working effectively to provide affordable and reliable power supply.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I will reply in two weeks’ time.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, that is okay. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise pursuant to Standing Order 45 (2) (b) to seek a Statement from the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on National Security and Foreign Relations regarding the invasion of Bomet Police Station. In the Statement, the Chairperson should:- (a) State whether the Government is aware that on 7th April, 2016, the Governor of Bomet County led a group of people in invading Bomet Police Station. (b) Explain the circumstances that led to the action of the Governor. (c) Explain whether there were any casualties and/or destruction of property following the invasion. (d) Confirm if any arrests were made. (e) Explain the actions that have been taken against the Governor and the other perpetrators. (f) Confirm if both public and private property in Bomet County is properly secured and, in particular, the land and property belonging to Bomet Campus of Moi University
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, allow me to ride on that Statement. It is unusual for an elected leader to storm a police station for nothing. Could the Chairperson also tell us the reason why the Governor went to that police station in the first place?
Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, your request is sought under number two. It is already there. Sen. Adan, how long do you require to answer?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I request two weeks to respond to that Statement.
Sen. (Prof.) Lesan, is two weeks good enough for you?
Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, do you have a Statement to seek?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, my secretary is yet to bring it. She is on her way.
She cannot access the Chamber.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have alerted the Serjeant-At- Arms.
I have an approved Statement from you.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, allow me to use your copy. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am sorry, I asked this last week. I was talking about the other Statement which the Chair cleared.
Okay. I have been an agent of necessity for your needs. Are you sure you have asked that question yet I approved yesterday? Sen. Ndiema, are you seeking a Statement?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not have a copy.
That is the end of requests for Statements. I am not going to prompt the Members to seek Statements. STATUS OF COMPENSATION OF INTEGRATED IDPS
(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Statement that had been sought by the Senate Minority Leader was supplementary information. The Statement was issued shortly before we left for the short recess. It has been available since last week. The supplementary issues that had been raised were available since last week. I shared a copy of the Statement with the Senate Minority Leader. We have also discussed and with your permission, I can highlight the key issues instead of reading the statement word for word. This is because we have discussed the crux of the information. The first issue which had been raised was how much the Government spent in toto in resettlement and compensation of Internally Displaced Persons (IDPs) throughout the country. On the first page of the Statement, there is a breakdown of the various programmes and how much money has been spent. The programmes include “ HameniRudi Nyumbani”, The Uganda Returnees Programme, Integrated IDPs Startup Capital and Land Resettlement Capital. There are also cash payments in various phases with a total of Kshs17.6 billion. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the second important issue is how the monies were paid per county. There was a request for further information on breakdown per county. Pages two and three of the Statement give the breakdown per county in various phases. Thirdly, the issue which had been raised was on the full list of the integrated IDPs countrywide and their distribution per county. The Ministry has given us the breakdown in terms of households and not the individual IDPs. They are approximately 75 000 households and it shows a breakdown per county. The list is on pages four and five. The integrated IDPs are spread in 45 out of the 47 counties of Kenya. Literally, it is the entire country. The respective households per counties are provided. It includes the Tharaka- Nithi County. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the other issue is on what happened to the property of the IDPs who never went back. The Government does not have that information but has been encouraging the IDPs who might have been deprived of their property to provide information. Such information is not available at the moment. Therefore, the The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Senate Majority Leader, before I allow interventions, did I hear you say that the issue of integrated IDPs is still open? Are you encouraging people to bring the names of the existing IDPs and details of those whose property got lost or was confiscated?
(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, first and foremost, the number that the Government has on integrated IDPs is 75,100 households, spread in 45 counties of our country. However, I have also added that on the question of the IDPs who might have lost land, which could have been taken over by third parties unlawfully, the position of the Government is that there are no complaints that have been lodged. The Government is encouraging such people to lodge complaints.
Does that include businesses; not just land?
(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Properly is property. That issue was brought by either Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale or Sen. Khaniri. The idea was to find out if there are people who are deprived of their land or fixed assets which have been taken over by third parties. That issue needs to be reported, so that action can be taken. That is The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. If you listened to the Senate Majority Leader in his opening remarks, he said that they had discussed the Report with Sen. Wetangula and he was only giving us a summary of the Report. Once supplementary questions are asked on the Floor of this House, they are the property of the House and everybody is entitled to know the details. Is it in order that a local arrangement was done to the extent of denying us a lot of information that we may have desired to know? For instance, in Migori County during the 2007/2008 skirmishes, information on destruction of property was collected by the Red Cross. Since the police refused to collect information, the Red Cross had an inventory of all the property that was destroyed in Migori. Would I be in order to request that the Chairman should go back and get more information? Eight years is a long time and he has said that it cannot be trusted that people will give the right report at this time. I find the answer to be totally inadequate for the purposes of which it was asked. Is he in order?
Is it inadequate because he did not read out the whole Statement in its entirety?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is not in order because he denied us the information by having an intimate discussion with Sen. Wetangula.
I hear you and will take that into account. Do you want to respond to that, Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki?
(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I did not deny the House this information. Sen. Wetangula requested for the Statement and it has been available for more than a week now, but for logistical reasons, we were not able to read it. The full Report will be tabled in this House and, therefore, it is not a secret document shared between the Senate Minority Leader and I.
Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki, we will interrogate the Statement as much as we can, but like you said, it affects 45 out of 47 counties. Since it appears like everybody has an interest in this issue, I will allow the interrogation of the supplementary Statement by those who can do it, like Sen. Wetangula, who has had occasion to look at it. Normally when a Statement is laid on the Table of the House, it becomes the property of the House, like Sen. (Dr.) Machage has said. But many times, the Senators do not have a chance to look at it in detail before they can interrogate it. Even as we interrogate it, I will give direction. Both the original and supplementary Statements are now available to any Senator. If you want to look at it, study and take notes on it, I will give direction that you get a copy of it. Then, on The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to thank the Senate Majority Leader for bringing this supplementary information. Having looked at the Statement and listened to the Senate Majority Leader, several questions come to light. First, the Government announced two or three months ago that they were closing down all IDP camps and everybody had to move to settlement areas. Those of us who travel through Naivasha, Mai Mahiu and Nakuru still see those camps being operational. When will they be closed? More importantly, on the policy of execution of the settlement of IDPs and the colossal sums of money that have been expended, the figure shown as used so far is Kshs17,604,996,977. In an earlier answer to this House from the then Minister for Devolution and Planning, Ms. Waiguru, the figure was indicated to be Kshs23 billion. Why has it shrunk to Kshs17 billion? Wherever there are the so-called integrated IDPs, there are, in fact, other IDPs that are not integrated in many counties; the numbers are startling. Nakuru alone has 17,000 households; Uasin Gishu, 10,000 households; Trans-Nzoia, 6,300 households; Bungoma, 4,500 households, all the way down the list. But when you look at the levels of compensation and areas focused for compensation, you will find the contradiction that we are trying to cure. Those counties that have benefited from compensation are only 14 out of 45. It is only Bomet, Isiolo, Kiambu, Laikipia, Elgeyo-Marakwet, Nairobi, Nakuru, Nyandarua, Nyeri, Trans Nzoia, Turkana and Uasin Gishu counties. Then, there is a paltry number of 34 households described as “individuals with special needs.” I do not know who those are. What was the criterion of picking the 13 counties to focus on compensating Internally Displaced Persons (IDPs) and leaving out the rest when we have problems everywhere? Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, thirdly, this is a fundamental point that you raised when you were not on the Chair. There are people who run businesses very successfully in various townships and markets. They had bank loans and huge stocks of businesses that were burnt down and destroyed completely. This happened in Naivasha, Burnt Forest, Migori, Mau Summit, Mumias, Kitale and several other places. What is the Government policy? When you talk of an IDP, it is not just a person who was sent away from his land. There are people whose philosophy in life is not to own land but to earn a decent living by doing something else. What is the policy of the Government in compensating this category of people? It is a real risk that the Government – because of poor record- keeping, tracking and lopsided policies – has been compensating over and over the same The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Sen. Wetangula, remember you are seeking clarification. Do not take too long.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am seeking clarification and he is very busy recording and I appreciate that. Why would it be difficult to say that Sen. Billow abandoned two acres of land in Burnt Forest while Sen. Haji abandoned one acre in Endebess? It is very easy. All you need to do is to take details from the affected persons. Who is occupying those parcels of land? If my house was burnt down, my land was not burnt. It is still there and remains a critical component in evaluating the resettlement of the IDPs. It is extremely unfair for a person who was living and farming on 50 acres of land in Elgeyo-Marakwet or Uasin Gishu to be then compensated with half-an-acre in Mai Mahiu for no mistake of his own. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we want to bring this to a closure. I thank you for directing that this matter should come up again on Tuesday. I know that the Senate Majority Leader has been taking notes and there are other issues that we will still need to raise. We should spare Tuesday next week to deal with this issue as you have directed. These are some of the clarifications I have and many more that I will come back with.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Did I hear the Senate Minority Leader say that somebody who had 10 acres of land in Burnt Forest was compensated with half-an-acre in Mai Mahiu? Could he clarify that?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the highest amount of money given to any IDP has been Kshs400,000 for those in favoured areas and Kshs10,000 for those in neglected areas like Bungoma, Kakamega, Trans Nzoia and others.
Sen. Wetangula, you have to be a little bit careful when you make that kind of statement. You started by saying that the issues of IDPs, both integrated and otherwise, cuts across the whole country. So, if you take that line, you must be ready to defend it when you start talking about favoured areas.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The Senate Minority Leader should substantiate and come out clearly. He has stated some The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo, I requested you to move from that microphone because it does not work well.
I have been moving around like a nomad.
Please, move to your normal sitting position because I cannot see you properly. Something is wrong with that microphone. Could you move to where you normally sit?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Senate Minority Leader has mentioned some interesting facts here which we need him to substantiate. Does he mean that there are lesser Kenyans than others? He said that some IDPs were given Kshs10,000 while others Kshs400,000. Could he elaborate and tell us whether he meant the same IDPs or something else because this is very serious?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the distinguished Senator for West Pokot probably does not live in this country. The President and his deputy themselves went out to give our money to the IDPs. They announced beforehand that they were giving Kshs400,000 to each IDP. I also know that in Bungoma where I come from and represent here, with a staggering 450,000 households, not a single IDP has ever received the Kshs400,000. Not one!
Sen. Wetangula, let me give guidance on this issue. I deferred this issue essentially to Tuesday, so that Senators can interrogate this document. Therefore, you should ask the categorisation of the payment; whether it was Kshs400,000 or whatever number that was paid without talking about “favoured areas.” It is important that you seek the reason for categorisation of the payment before you talk about some areas being favoured more than others. This is an issue – like you have said correctly – that is not localised. So, I want us to look at it with the seriousness that it deserves without trying to trivialise or make it look like it is not a serious issue.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. You are right. Sen. Wetangula was a Minister and I was a Permanent Secretary (PS) in the previous Government. Therefore, are the figures that the previous Government gave different from those that this Government has given? Let us not confuse this. We need to know the reasons why the IDPs were initially given Kshs10,000 and then Kshs400,000 later.
What is your point of order, Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki?
(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I rise to ask for the Chair’s guidance.
The Chair of the Committee?
(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): I am seeking guidance from you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. This matter is of great national interest and it is affecting The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. We know that during the Grand Coalition Government, Internally Displaced Persons (IDPs) received Kshs10,000 and land was bought for them. Maybe we now need to know who these were and who received the land that was bought by the Government. We even had others who received Kshs25,000 and houses were built for them. He has to bring a comprehensive response which will explain why they received Kshs10,000, at how much was land was bought, where was the land and who the beneficiaries were. More importantly, we need details of the Kshs25,000 and the houses that were built by Government.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. As I request this point of order, let me declare my interest. I am one of the victims that lost a lot of property in Migori County. Could the Chairperson clarify whether the Government was only interested – this has been asked by Sen. Wetangula and it has not been clarified – in compensating for land only or for other property that was lost during this time? There was an investor, I think from central Kenya, who had invested in the famous big hotels in Kisumu County. He lost billions and that is not being addressed. I lost millions, amongst others, and I have not even received Kshs10,000. Could he also collect more information from the Red Cross as he brings the next answers?
Sen. Wetangula, why are you in a hurry?
No, I will give you the Floor because I think we must get direction one way or the other.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Would I be on order to ask the Senate Majority Leader, while preparing the answers to bring before this House The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Sen. Njoroge, is that not exactly what I said not so long ago about categorization?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, okay. The last one that I would like to know is the exact acreage, which was not given back to the victims who were the owners ---
Sen. Njoroge, the trouble is that we are going back and forth and we are discussing the same issue. Sen. Wetangula and Sen. (Dr.) Machage have raised the issue of property and businesses lost. It is coming out as the Lowest Common Multiple (LCM).
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, most obliged. I think we will interrogate ---
Sen. Wetangula, I will hear you but we have to make two decisions. I have already ordered that that matter comes back on Tuesday, 26thApril, 2016 and that Senators will have the opportunity to interrogate the document properly. It is a matter of great importance. I do not want trivialization of the issues. Remember as I sit here, I represent a county and I am unable to debate with you on the issues that are coming up. I want it to be treated as a serious issue that is affecting everybody, so that we can deal with the issues.
Why are you raising your hands? Why can you not press your buttons and intervene?
We have pressed.
Sen. Adan, when you were sitting at the back there was a problem. Is there still a problem at the front?
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I wish to support the proposal given by the Senate Majority Leader because this matter is simply very important to the people of this country. If these questions will be asked by all of us, I am sure he might not be able to exhaustively answer most of them. I support, come Tuesday, if possible, the Cabinet Secretary (CS) for the Ministry of Devolution and Planning should come and answer most of the questions that will be asked by Members.
Sen. Wetangula I want to hear you for me to make a decision on this issue. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, before I come to that point, Sen. Haji asked about half-an-acre of land vis-à-vis Kshs10,000. All over the farming areas of Kenya today, you can hardly get an acre of land costing Kshs400,000. With Kshs400,000, you will only buy half-an-acre or so and you are a victim who was evicted from a developed 50 acres that you owned and you cannot go back to your land or access it. I also join you that we do not trivialize this very critical issue. I do not ask many questions in this House. The reason I brought this is because it is extremely important and it affects the whole country. For some of my colleagues to start talking that IDPs were paid Kshs10,000 by the Grand Coalition Government. That is completely going off target. IDPs are IDPs. We have IDPs who were occasioned in 1992, 1997, 2002 and 2007, and they are Kenyans. We have not even mentioned some former colleagues who are occupying over 6,000 acres of land that was meant for settlement of IDPs. It is not even in Uasin Gishu but in Nyeri County. In furtherance of what my brother, Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki has said, I seek your indulgence and suggest that calling the Cabinet Secretary (CS) and his technocrats will not help. He will just come to read this Statement to us. If my brother agrees with me, I suggest that this House brings a Motion and we set up a Select Committee of this House to comprehensively investigate the matter of IDPs; their categorization; the levels of their losses and those who lost land, shops and all manner of things so that we give the report to the Government. The implementation Committee can then follow up and deal with this issue with finality. I am ready with my brother to bring a bipartisan Motion and set up a bipartisan committee that can then interrogate this matter fully. Where are these Internally Displaced Persons (IDPs), why are they called Integrated? Why are others here? Why have some been settled and why have others not been settled? What about those who lost their shops, their businesses, and so on? This will bring this matter to a conclusion that we, as representatives of counties, protectors of the interests of counties and their governments can make a contribution.Then, the National Government and the county governments can participate in resettling IDPs once and for all.
Thank you, Senator. Order! All the points of order that are coming up have been contributions. So, let me deal with the people who want to contribute first. Sen. Billow, did you seek the Floor?
Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want the Senate Majority Leader to clarify with regard to IDPs what the Government’s definition and policy regarding IDPs is. Is it about the IDPs of post-election violence in Rift Valley only or is it IDPs of conflicts that arise, for example, in North Eastern? For instance in Mandera County, everyone knows that there was conflict four years ago and up to now, we have thousands The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, please, be brief. Remember that these are interventions.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to agree with the Majority Leader that we have many con artists in Kenya who will want to take advantage of an attempt to register new the IDPs. Since you already have 75,00 households, could he confirm to us how much they intend to pay them and when they are going to make that payment? Secondly, the people who became IDPs and lost land; that land was not lost. The land is still there. So, unless the Government wants to promote impunity and gloss over criminal activities, could the Majority Leader tell us when the Government is going to offer security to the IDPs so that they can go back to their former pieces of land? Finally, in one of the cases, an IDP by the name of Mr. Adrian Muteshi was displaced from his land in Turbo. He was a strong man, he went to the High Court and an order was made that he goes back to the land. Could the Majority Leader come with the answer and confirm that security has been given to Mr. Muteshi to go back to his land in Turbo and that the Deputy President, Hon. William Samoei Ruto, has paid Mr. Muteshi the Kshs5 million that he was ordered to pay him for having displaced him from his land in Turbo?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to thank the Leader of Majority for handling this matter well and also to thank you for postponing it to give us time to look at it. As he goes to do it, I remember when this issue came, I asked one thing: What is the definition of an IDP? I did not get an answer. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, is a person who was displaced and went back to his land and is now settled still an IDP? There are people who were squatters somewhere and they were also displaced. They did not have land but they were displaced from their place of residence. Are these also IDPs? I also asked, since the Government is committed to tackling the issue of IDPs, could it go further and look at historical IDPs? There are those communities which were completely dispossessed by the colonialists and they are still landless. Those are the original IDPs. Could we start from where the rain started beating us? Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, there are those IDPs who were displaced to foreign lands like Tanzania and Uganda and are considered as foreigners there. I heard that there are some of them who came back from Uganda. Have we profiled them and ensured that they are also treated equally like other IDPs? The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
This issue is becoming too protracted because if you look at the issue by Sen. Billow and the one that has been raised by Sen. Ndiema, the statement being issued by the Leader of Majority was specific to the post- election violence IDPs. I think it is important to understand that it is the reason why it is a restricted statement to only the issues that were raised. If you want to go far back, I cannot say anything about it from where I am sitting. That is why the two leaders may want to consider the proposal made by Sen. Wetangula and decide on how to craft whatever they want to bring before us. Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, you are on both lists. So, like I said, I will not allow points of order because people are rising on point of order when in essence, they are contributing. So, I will give you a chance. Let Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo contribute first.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want the Leader of Majority to further get thorough clarification: IDPs are IDPs in Kenya. These people were displaced in Kenya by Kenyans themselves. During the 2007/2008 post- election violence, in Molo, for example, people lost their herds of cows and sheep. Their livestock was stolen and their houses were burnt later on and people were moved. At the same time, the same behavior exhibited itself in Mandera, Wajir, West Pokot and Turkana and at the same time, we decided to kill that behaviour which is cattle rustling. This bad habit is by Kenyans against other Kenyans. So, people were displaced from their homes. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, could the Leader of Majority in getting fine details of the same, tell us where these people who were affected in Laikipia, Turkana and West Pokot are because of cattle rustling? Nobody is talking about them.
Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo, like I said, you are not going to find that answer in this statement because this statement was sought specific to the post-election violence IDPs. So, you will not find issues about cattle rustling in this statement unless you bring it as a substantive question or issue that you want to be explained. You will not find it there, however, you look at it. It is not there.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, fortunately, this answer does not talk about post election violence. It talks about Internally Displaced Persons (IDPs), who include cattle rustling victims.
If you look at the body of that Statement, you will realise that he is talking about post-election violence, starting from page one.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, as we correct what Sen. Wetangula said, maybe we should form a select Committee to work on it.
True. Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, is your point of order still live?
Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. It was not against Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo, but Sen. Ndiema. Is the Senator in order to try and sneak through the Floor of the House a lie that has been the reason why people, especially from my community, who live in Trans-Nzoia, have been attacked during every general election, by claiming that they were settled on pieces of land by the colonialists? I congratulate you for stopping him from going that way. If we allow that kind of talk to be part of the The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Sen. Kembi-Gitura): Sen. Haji, what is your point of order? All of you must realise that we are taking too much time on this issue.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, is the hon. Senator for Kakamega in order to pick on the Statement made by the Senator for Trans-Nzoia, when we know that during the colonial times, the Maasais were displaced from their land? It is not only the people of Trans-Nzoia who were displaced, but also the Maasais. He was talking in general terms.
Order, Senators! This issue will disintegrate in such a way that we shall not recognize what we are discussing in the first instance. I will not allow that to happen. The Senate Majority Leader will confirm to me two issues. One---
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Sen. Ndiema, I will not go back to the issue raised by Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale. I will not allow you to go on that line. If I wanted you to withdraw or order that the words be expunged, I would have done it.
You are not on microphone and so, you are not on the HANSARD. Give him the microphone.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, is the Senator for Kakamega in order to impute improper motives on me, when I did not mention any Kenyan community as having displaced other communities in the historical times? I mention - which is a fact - that the British colonialists displaced some communities. I also mentioned that there are squatters in Trans-Nzoia who were displaced, including the Luhyas and other people who are not necessarily from one community. I am speaking for them. Is it in order for Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale to introduce the element of community?
Order, Sen. Ndiema! Please, sit down.
Sen. Ndiema and Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, you are only aggravating the situation unnecessarily. Like I said, I would have a ruling on Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale’s point of order, but I did not because I was listening and following the proceedings. Sen. Ndiema, next time when I ask you to sit down, please, do so. I do not want to The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, on a point of information.
Whom do you want to inform?
I want to inform Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale.
Sen. (Dr.) Machage, it is too late; he is not on the Floor.
(Sen. (Prof) Kindiki): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg that you add me one more minute, so that I can be conclusive.
You have already taken more than a minute begging.
(Sen. (Prof) Kindiki): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is because my colleagues were interrupting me.
(Sen. (Prof) Kindiki): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this issue is so emotive and polyvalent, as you have seen, even among parties; this is not a party issue. Even within Coalition for Reforms and Democracy (CORD) and Jubilee, we have contesting views. This issue can even split and disintegrate the country if it is not handled well. For us in Jubilee, we believe that the future of this country lies in resolving some of the long standing issues including the IDPs problems once and for all. We have used the Organisation of African Unity (OAU) Convention of 1969 to define IDPs. Someone has to be away from home and has the fear of returning. Therefore, when you return, you are no longer displaced. The reasons for being away must be serious events that disturb public order or conflict. The definition in our Act is a generous. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, before I give the way forward, as the Senator for Tharaka -Nithi County, I am not satisfied with the information that is available to Government at the moment. I know that there are over 3,000 people who were displaced in Tharaka North in 1997 and until now, 19 years later, they are still displaced. The example given by the Senator for Migori was about Mr. Gitonga, from Chuka in Tharaka- Nithi County, who used to own the Grand Kimwa Hotel in Kisumu; he has almost lost his mind; he has never recovered from that loss. It is serious and it affects all of us, including the Senate Majority Leader. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
On a point of information, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki, do you want to be informed by Sen. Musila?
(Sen. (Prof) Kindiki): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have no problem. He is my neighbour and senior; he can inform me.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to inform my good friend, the Senate Majority Leader, that immediately after the violence, a Committee was formed under the chairmanship of the former Permanent Secretary for Planning, Prof. Sambili. I was a Member of that Committee. A compilation was made of the IDPs. What appears to have happened is that the list that Senate Majority Leader may wish to have access to has continued to be amended and added fraudulently. Therefore, I want to inform my friend that a list exists but perhaps that has already been compensated, and I think this is a new list. If we are not careful, we will end up adding people who are not Internally Displaced Persons (IDPs).
(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Thank you for that information. In light of that information from Sen. Musila, I suggest that the Cabinet Secretary should appear and give whatever information he has. I also support what my brother the Leader of Minority has said; this Senate will do a great deal of good to this country if we can have an ad hoc committee specifically to deal with this issue. If possible, that committee, to show seriousness, can even be co-led by myself and Sen. Wetangula to remove any indication that any Senator from the Jubilee or CORD side wants to take advantage of the issue. That way, this Senate can give this country a long lasting solution on a matter that has divided our country for a long period of time.
Very well. My understanding of the way forward is to find out how soon the Cabinet Secretary can come to the Committee of the Whole so that everybody has a chance to interrogate this matter. Tuesday is not possible because it is too soon.
(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Tuesday is too soon but I know the Cabinet Secretary (CS) is very co-operative. We can get him within a week.
Tuesday or Thursday next week? Does that pre-empt the ruling I had made on Tuesday?
(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): If you still want to hear me, it is fine but it would be the same thing. I would rather I pass these concerns to the CS today so that as he prepares, he can come and deal with everything, including these issues.
Then I propose that we do it on Thursday next week.
(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): I will follow up on the issue. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
I cannot direct on the issue of the Motion. That is a decision that you, people, can make. Sen. (Prof.) Lesan, what is your point of order.
This is a very complicated matter and I think we might consider asking the Cabinet Secretary for Lands and Urban Development and also the Cabinet Secretary for Interior and National Coordination so we do not have to call them again and again.
That is a very important point.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
It better be a point of order, Sen. Okong’o.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, before you arrange the time the Cabinet Secretaries will be coming here, I have seen here that the list of the integrated IDPs in Nyamira would be profiled shortly. I do not know whether the profile from Nyamira would be available or we just interrogate the same answers?
Sen. Okong’o, you have a good chance of interrogating the Cabinet Secretary why the profiling has not been done. I a m directing that the Leader of Majority invites the Cabinet Secretary to come for a meeting with the relevant committee of the Senate at which all Senators will be invited so that all matters pertaining to this issue can be interrogated to completion, pending the other matters proposed by both leaders of the House; Leader of Majority and Leader of Minority. This will take place Thursday next week. The point made by Sen. (Prof.) Lesan is very important. You may want to consider inviting the Cabinet Secretary for Lands and Urban Development and any other Cabinet Secretary. We want to deal with these issues once and for all. That would be my direction. That Statement has taken a very long time but I think it was very important. I can see Sen. Billow is not here to issue the next Statement. Anybody from the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget to issue Statement (b)? Sen. Billow, are you ready to issue the Statement?
I am ready, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Let me start with the one for Central Bank of Kenya.
We are going in sequence so it is Statement (b). MISAPPROPRIATION OF PUBLIC FUNDS BY NATIONAL BANK OF KENYA
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the request for a statement on the misappropriation of public funds by the National Bank of Kenya (NBK) was made by Sen. Wetangula on 30th March, 2016. In the Statement, he sought a number of clarifications. The first one is whether the Cabinet Secretary in charge of National Treasury is aware that NBK is in a financial crisis and has reported a loss of Kshs120 The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, this is an embarrassingly inadequate answer. The Chairman of the Committee that I sit in has given an answer that is contradictory, inadequate and intended to cover up what is going on at NBK. You cannot say that you are not aware that funds belonging to NSSF, NHIF, RBA and other public institutions have been lost when at the same breath you are saying that money has been lost. It is true that NSSF has 48 per cent of ownership of NBK. These are public funds. I know that the law says you cannot own more than 25 per cent but NSSF has 48 per cent of the money in NBK. Immediately after I asked this question, the Board of NBK was sent on leave and reported to the CID. Eventually, they have sacked six top managers for occasioning a huge loss to the bank. Could the Chairman tell us, and table the accounts of the bank to show that in fact, the loss is Kshs1.2 billion and not Kshs20 billion because information available to me is that the bank embarked on reckless lending of money to borrowers without proper security and in certain instances, a borrower applied for a loan like today, the loan was approved the following day and on the third day the borrower withdrew from the account US$1,000,000 and a week later the loan was declared a bad loan and the account closed? This is fraud and theft. Could the Chairman bring a detailed Statement---
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. The bank is an entity that holds deposits of tens of thousands of Kenyans. Therefore, to make an allegation in the manner that he made, he needs to table evidence that the bank approved a loan for someone within one day and so on. That is a serious allegation and the Member has to table evidence that the irregularity took place or withdraw.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): In other words, you are asking for substantiation?
Yes, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I was very clear on the information available to me. The bank has demonstrated itself to the public. No bank can send away six top managers if they are not--- The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order, Sen. Wetangula! Whatever you have said is in the HANSARD. However, you have made some important statements as far as I am concerned. I thought that this would have been an opportunity to jump on the Standing Order raised by Sen. Billow and table the information available to you. Otherwise, you have to withdraw and apologize according to Standing Order No.90.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I will neither withdraw nor apologize. The Standing Orders require that the documentation that I may table to substantiate, can be tabled on the next sitting day which is Tuesday next week. I will bring the documents and show the Chairman how reckless lending has been going on in that bank. That is not Chase Bank or Imperial Bank----
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order, Sen. Wetangula! It is so ordered.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. This statement was to be answered last week, but Sen. Wetangula sought permission for it to be delayed until this week so that he could be allowed to table the same information he is talking about. He said that he had information that could shake---
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order, Sen. Billow! To the best of my knowledge, the Chair has ordered that this information and documents be tabled on Tuesday, next week.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, in the last question that I sought from the Chairman, I asked about the competence and capability of Central Bank of Kenya (CBK) to superintend over banks. Could the Chairperson confirm that given the events that led to the collapse of Dubai, Imperial and Chase banks and considering the shaky situation of National Bank of Kenya (NBK), the leadership at the CBK and their ability to superintend over our banks and manage our monetary policy and stability is wanting and needs to be addressed urgently. We do not want to have situations where we fall back in the 1990s where within a spell of one year, more than 20 banks went under as the CBK watched.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I would like to get a clarification from the Chairperson touching on something that he said. It is very important that as we ask and respond to the questions regarding the NBK, to be very careful not to put it in a situation where customers can begin to make a run for their money. That would be adding insult to injury in our current financial situation. I would like the Chairman to give this House an assurance that in spite of the problems that might be at NBK, it is stable, clear and nowhere near having a problem that can cause a run on the bank.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, could the Chairman table in this House the loans given to members of staff and directors of the NBK as well as a list of all the people owing that bank huge loans of Kshs10 million and above? When he tables that list, could he indicate the ones that are non-performing loans?
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I respect my brother, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale very much. However, is it in order for the honourable Senator to request for information from a bank that touches on the relationship between a The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): I will respond to that concern later. Please, proceed, Chair.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I would like to advise the Senator for Bungoma County that in any business, be it a bank, one does business with an aim to make profit. However, when doing business, one can also make a loss. National Social Security Fund (NSSF) is an investor in the NBK which can make a loss like any other bank. Therefore, the Kshs1.2 billion is a loss on the operations of the bank. It is not a loss of the deposits. Therefore, all the other entities that have deposits there are not at risk because it is not a loss of deposits, but on business. I would like to inform him that ---
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. Before the Chairman purports to advise me, is he in order to say that NSSF is a depositor at the NBK when, in fact, it is a bona fide shareholder.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Those are just differences in semantics. You may be a shareholder and a depositor. It is just common sense. I may not have studied economics or commerce, but that is common English language.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I said that NSSF is an investor. That means a shareholder in the English language. There are many private banks that reported losses. The NBK is not the only bank. The NBK has been reporting losses for many years from the time of the former managing director. Therefore, reporting losses does not mean the bank’s deposits are affected. People should not confuse those two things. Secondly, Sen. Wetangula asked a question on the status of the accounts of the NBK. The accounts of any company quoted on the Nairobi Stock Exchange are public documents and are available on the website of the NSE or that of the NBK. It is not privileged information. It is public information and he can access it anywhere. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, Sen. Wetangula also asked about the lending. Lending in any bank is guided by prudential guidelines which are international standards adopted by all the banks in the world as well as the guidelines provided for in the Banking Act. It would be wrong to say that the lending at the NBK is characterized by irregularities that he has mentioned unless he tables evidence. Therefore, I will respond to that question when he tables his evidence. They remain mere allegations until and unless he tables evidence. On the last point, I agree with Sen. Kagwe that we need to be very cautious on the statements we make. When we say that a bank is being run like a kiosk, we will create panic amongst the depositors. I would also like to advise the Senator for Kakamega that the confidentiality rules that bar anyone from getting information relating to the accounts of the account holders in that bank are the same ones that have been used by the Central Bank of Kenya (CBK) in denying his party leaders access to information relating to Eurobond.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order. Let me make the ruling first. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. Thank you for remaining hawk-eyed and seeing the right Standing Order.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, assist me to get the attention of the Chairperson. Equally important, I would like the Chairperson to prevail upon the Chairman. The fact that he is a financial expert does not mean that the rest of us who might be laymen in that field are ignorant. Information which he is withholding from me is now---
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Sen. Kagwe has an intervention.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I am on a point of order.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Okay, you are right. Sen. Kagwe, hold your guns.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the information that he is trying to shield me from accessing is in possession of the Government. The supreme law which is the Constitution says in Article 34 that every citizen has the right of access to any information held by the State. Therefore, you are now advancing the same lie that was used by the Governor of the CBK in denying the---
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order! Senators do not lie. They may say untruths but they do not lie.
Yes, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. He is advancing the same misguided strategy that was used by the Governor of the CBK who wants to shield corruption that was perpetuated through Eurobond in the same way that we want to reject corruption that is being perpetuated---
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale. I request that you desist from that matter until Sen. Wetangula tables the information that he has on Tuesday. Please hold your guns. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I said all these things because I wanted to persuade you to direct that he must bring that information and table all the documents that I have asked for. They are critical. They include insider trading and non- performing loans. It is the evidence we want in this Senate of the Republic of Kenya for Kenyans to see.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, when you read the Standing Orders, you rightly indicated that it is subject to several things, including the fact that it can be heard in camera. However, I do not recall - and I could be wrong somebody can correct me - in the history of this country where the loan book was asked for in Parliament. I have never heard of that. We are creating a very dangerous situation. It is possible that today, those people with loan books, those transacting at the National Bank of Kenya (NBK) and those who want to apply for loans in the NBK can start getting worried that their names will be splashed around here in the Senate. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, we need to be sensitive to some of these things and realise that we are dealing with sensitive business where confidence is everything. When it comes to banks, confidence is everything. Whereas we want to punish those who have misused their positions in the banks, it is important that we do not do so and punish depositors and good citizens of this country.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order, I am on my feet.
Two of them!
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Yes, two of them. If you followed the chronology of our discussions, an allegation was raised by Sen. Wetangula and substantiation demanded by Sen. Billow. Sen. Mutahi Kagwe raised an issue of protection of matters of banking to citizens of this country an issue that made me call your attention to our Standing Order with a clause. On subsequent discussions or contributions, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale has demanded that you lay on the Table of this House certain information that you think is very privileged. I will make a ruling on that on Tuesday. It is so ordered.
If it is on what I have already ruled on, no. Proceed, Sen. Wetangula.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the Chairman did not respond to one of my requests: The management of the CBK and its ability to superintend over banks is wanting given the situation that we have witnessed of late. He completely avoided to answer that.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): I have not yet called him to respond. It is part of your request.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, he The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): No, that is my prerogative. Proceed, Sen. Billow.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I just want to bring to the attention of the---
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Very well, finish answering the other questions that were raised.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I have answered him. I do not know what he wants me to answer. However, I have answered all the questions raised by the hon. Senator unless he did not listen to me. He asked four questions and I answered all of them.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): You are forgetting one thing; what is going on with the NBK, Chase Bank and Imperial Bank is public knowledge. It is in the public domain. So, we cannot pretend to conceal what is already in the public. All he wanted was an assurance from you that all is well with the National Bank. Can you do it or say all is not well?
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, he has it in writing and I have read it. That is the assurance from the Cabinet Secretary of the National Treasury; that as far as he is concerned, there is absolutely no problem and the public and other monies in the National Bank are safe. May I read it once more?
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): You do not have to because you have answered. Kindly have a sit.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, listening to the tone of the Chairperson and that of Sen. Kagwe and their demeanour, it should strike the Chair that what they are doing is over and above giving us information which we want. Since when was the Chairman given power to defend information which is not his? He is a conveyer. Can the Chair direct that it is not his responsibility to defend the ills that are ongoing at the National Bank? He should give us that information and we shall live with it. We are protecting the depositors.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order! Order Sen. Billow. Kindly remain cool and listen to this. How do you know I will not give you the Floor? Everybody must be heard. When I think an answer has to come from the Floor, I will give out the opportunity. I think I am being fair on this. Now, our HANSARD does not give any information on the tone or appearance of a Member’s contribution to this House. In any case, an assessment of a tone and appearance is a subjective issue. It depends on whether you think the facial expression of a fellow Senator fits into your culture and definition of anger and other expressions. Therefore, it is neither here nor there.
On a point of Order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. An allegation was The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order! I have to rule on Sen. Billow’s point of order. Therefore, listen for once. It is out of order for a Member to allege that another Member is defending a bank unless you have information that you may want to table or be called upon to substantiate. That was out of order. Let it rest there. Sen. Billow, that is my position. Please relax!
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I am the one who asked for this Statement. The Senator for Mandera County and Sen. Kagwe must understand and appreciate that it is not every day that a bank of the status of the National Bank wakes up and dismisses six top managers and hurls them to the CID to record statements on impropriety, fraud and theft. This is public information. What we are seeking is not to frighten anybody who is banking with the National Bank. My law firm has been acting for the National Bank. I do not know if it is still acting on their behalf. What we want is an assurance that what has happened at the National Bank is not a figment of the imagination. We want the bank that is 100 per cent owned by Government and Government institutions to be safe and that public funds are safe. That is what we are asking for. In so doing, I do not understand how Sen. Billow and what looks like a Lieutenant behind him---
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order Senator! Withdraw and apologise.
I withdraw and encourage my colleagues---
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Can you withdraw and apologise?
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order! It is exciting indeed.
I have made two rulings over the issue. One, the Senate Minority Leader will table his allegations on Tuesday. Secondly, I will make a ruling on whether the information sought by Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale will be against the Banking Act and any known law of protection of customers of the banking institutions. That is fair. Let us now move on.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I do not know whether I am in order to request the Senate Minority Leader; my leader, to tell us his interests since he told us that his law firm used to act for the National Bank. I am worried there can be conflict of interest because he might get the information from the law firm.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): That is legitimate. I get you well. The Senate Minority Leader, you have been challenged to declare your interest.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I have no interest to declare in matters of National Bank. May I advise my sister Sen. Elachi to desist from calling me “my leader from western Kenya” I am a national leader. I am not a leader of western Kenya.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Let us give him time to declare the interest.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, may I remind my colleague, the tycoon for Nyeri County, Sen. Kagwe, that when he starts exhibiting short fuss in debate, we might start wondering---
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order! The Senate Minority Leader, I will advise on that because I am the Chair and a little older than you. Sometimes it is good to answer a question and leave it at that. I know you are very knowledgeable or, maybe, very intelligent. However, sometimes the information you have is not useful to this House. Let me advise you on that. If you want to be a statesman The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. Would I be in order to assure my colleague that, in fact, I have absolutely no problem with any form of debate? Indeed, I have a very short fuse on matters that he has raised. My only concern was the accusation that I defend anything that might be corrupt or engage in corrupt practices.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order! I ruled over that.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, my final issue is that whereas I would be happy to be the chairman’s lieutenant at any time---
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order! Sen. Kagwe! I ruled on that and an apology was made.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the statement was not withdrawn and I have not finished. A withdrawal was made but no apology was made by my friend who is also a lieutenant of the Hon. Raila Odinga in the Coalition for Reforms and Democracy (CORD) Administration.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order! The law applies on both sides and it cuts across. The knowledge this Chair has is that apart from being the Chairman of FORD-Kenya, Sen. Wetangula is one of the principals of the CORD. That is the information this Chair has.
Hold on. Whether he has ceased and, therefore, become a lieutenant is not privy to this Chair. In the same way, Sen. Wetangula withdrew and apologised for having made the same allegation against you, Sen. Kagwe, it is just appropriate that you reciprocate; absolutely apologise and withdraw.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, by lieutenant, I meant---
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): I have asked you do to---
But Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, there must be some natural justice. I must explain because he wants to move from being a lieutenant to being a president.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order! Sen. Kagwe! Let us have some decorum.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, if Sen. Wetangula is not a lieutenant of hon. Raila, I totally withdraw and apologise.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Very good! That is enough. Let us move on because we have had enough of entertainment. Let us deal with business. The Chairperson of the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget, you have another statement to issue. Would you like to execute Statement (c)?
Yes. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): If you disown the Statement, I can appropriately order---
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I did not request for the Statement.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, it was requested by Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Very well. I am sorry.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo requested for a statement on failure by county governments to pay for goods supplied and services rendered to them by suppliers and contractors. This is a very important Statement for Senators because the problem of lack of payment to suppliers of goods and services---
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order! Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale! Could you converse a lower tones because we, and especially Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo, want to listen?
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, this is a very important statement for the Senator because it is about the pending bills. Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo wanted the Treasury to explain the issue surrounding failure by county governments to pay for goods and services supplied by suppliers and contractors. The response from the Treasury is that they have reflected on the above and would like to advise as follows:- (1) That, according to Section 94(a)(i) of the Public Finance Management (PFM) Act, 2012, any county government that fails to make any payment as and when due is in serious material breach of the law. (2) That such serious material breach of law warrants intervention by the Cabinet Secretary (CS) to the national Treasury in the manner contemplated under Article 225 of the Constitution which talks about stoppage of funds to county governments. (3) It should, however, be noted that the Treasury has not received any formal complaints by suppliers that county governments have failed to honour payments due to them. (4) Furthermore, in light of the fact that:- (a) The PFM Act, 2012, and the Integrated Financial Management Information System (IFMIS) design does not allow county governments to enter into commitments for which there are no approved budgets---. That is the law as far as the PFM Act and the IFMIS are concerned. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I thank my Chairman, Sen. Billow, for the detailed response regarding what is happening in our counties. However, he has just presented his answer like one could give information and it has not solved what I asked for. I wanted to know clearly whether there are Kenyans who entered into contracts with the 47 county governments and assemblies to carry out projects and supply goods. In the middle of their business, some have ended up not being paid at all. This could either be as a result of a governor or whoever is in charge changing the agreement. Some of them have suddenly ended up being bankrupt. They took loans from banks and they have sold their property to repay them. I know one of them who collapsed and died in Kitale because of huge debts. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, in my county, a Mr. Said has had to sell all his lorries and yet these projects were given to him and they did not pay him. I particularly want more clarification on when the law has been breached. What does the National Treasury and national Government want us to do? When you say that the law has been breached and we have brought your attention to it, what do you want the Senate to do? I told you that it is now the Treasury to quickly call the relevant arm of Government to deal with---.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo, a practice is developing in this House where questions or clarifications become contributions on the Floor of the House. The tradition that has been in this House - for us who have been in the House a bit longer - is to focus on one or a maximum of two questions and execute them so that we save on time. If you could save us the stories, just The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, this one is even worse than the National Bank of Kenya (NBK) that we are talking about. It is touching on so many Kenyans and it is so serious.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Just go to the question.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I am going there. The Principal Secretary (PS), through the Chairman has acknowledged that the Public Finance Management (PFM) Act and the Integrated Financial Management Information System (IFMIS) do not allow county governments to enter into commitments without the necessary budgetary provisions. Now that you know that they have gone into commitments, what steps will you take because they are already in those commitments? Another clarification that I am seeking is; you have said that their Kshs30 billion is lying at the Central Bank of Kenya (CBK), where you suspect that this could be the money that should be paid to suppliers. What penalty is the National Treasury meting out on this people who are lazy counties? If there are such counties which do not exhaust their money, could it be a reason where the Senate should dig deeper? We may be giving counties money that they cannot spend.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order! You are sliding to where I have told you not to. The Chair is not a computer to begin analyzing and synthesizing your speech and begin to look for where the question is. You have already asked two questions and if there is a third one, go to it. I can give you that latitude and save us from the other lyrics.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, thank you. Lastly, the National Treasury has said that suppliers are urged to report such cases to the National Treasury. What is the procedure for each of them to raise this problem so that they can be paid? Do you want these debts to be categorized per county, and who do they send it to? Is it directly to the National Treasury or is there a stopover where they have to send it through?
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, thank you for this opportunity. Let me seek further clarity because these days it has become a pre-occupation. Whenever anybody asks me for my number, the next thing they will do is call me and ask me to help them push for payment in the county government. I would like to clarify further ---
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Do you want to clarify or you want the Chairperson to clarify?
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I would like to seek further clarification from the Chairperson. I know there are especially small scale business persons who trade with Kshs1million or Kshs2 million, who have incurred massive losses as a result of non-payment by counties. Could the Chairperson clarify whether there will be mechanisms for reparations for those massive losses that have been incurred? In addition to that, he should clarify whether his Committee might be in a position to assist in that investigation that the Ministry is proposing so that we can recommend various actions, including possible The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order!
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, thank you.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): If you had been in the House a little bit earlier, you may not have raised your third question. Anyway, the Chairperson will decide how to handle it.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I might have missed that when I was alighting from my car. I was listening to the debate as I was coming.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): This House starts business at 2.30 p.m.
Yes, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. We can follow on radio.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, thank you. I would like the Chairperson to clarify the usage of a document called Authority to Incur Expenditure (AIE). This document has been issued by my county, for example, in the pretext of paying for services that have been rendered to the county. Recipients of these documents have gone from bank to bank with an AIE which was issued to them in the pretext that this is payment for services or money for projects. I would like the Chairperson to clarify whether this document can be used to pay for services or goods that have been supplied to counties or even projects. It is because this has and continues to be done in some counties, particularly, by the County of Bomet.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I thank the Chairperson for that very good answer. Through you, could you alert the National Treasury that business people did not know that they are supposed to report to them that they are being owed money. Therefore, you cannot wait for those reports before you take action. Could you confirm that the Treasury will act on the strength of the following reports:- 1. The Report of the Controller of Budget - which you know and have read - which has confirmed that these pending bills are there. 2. The Reports of the Kakamega County Public Accounts and Investments Committee which was adopted by the County Assembly that spoke to these pending bills 3. The Reports of the Vihiga County Assembly which, beyond just making the resolution, have also brought here a Petition about these pending bills.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, there are some unique circumstances which, perhaps, have contributed to these pending bills. One of them is that in the process of transiting from local to county governments in 2013, there were some bills that were incurred without proper procedures taking place. For example, in Nyeri County, there are some murram road contractors who went to work on the roads in similar fashion to what they had been doing before. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Correct! I want the clarification.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, is there a way, through the Chair and our Committee which we see sit on, that we can put a time limit when a county debt must be paid if certification has been given.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Very well! Chairman, in your endeavor to answer, I will request Members to note that Statement Time as per your Standing Orders is only one hour. I have used my own discretion as the Chair to give more time especially due to issues on finance. So, I hope there will be less intervention. Let us hear the Chair so that we can go to the main business of the House today.
Thank you Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I want to thank the Members for those valid interventions. I sympathize with the situation of the Senator for West Pokot for he has people becoming bankrupt and it is the same thing in Mandera County or any other county because of the delay. What Treasury is suggesting is that we can take two actions. One is a situation where the Senate can, by resolution, direct Treasury to investigate and take appropriate action in view of the material breach of the financial regulations. There was a time we did that and I think that is one way we can attach the reports that the Senator for Kakamega County has mentioned; the Controller of Budgets pending Bills and the Auditor- General’s Report. That is one way of doing it. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the other one is where the Senator for West Pokot can forward these reports himself, as a Senator, to Treasury. He can forward the list of people who have not been paid and have completed the jobs that they have been contracted to do, or supplied services or goods but have not been paid. Based on that, on the basis of the response by the Treasury, they can take action because it is in breach of the Constitution. Treasury can now ask the Controller of Budget to investigate whether those payments are outstanding. Once they confirm, they can go ahead and stop funds being transferred to the county under Article 225 of the Constitution. I think that is long overdue and we need to do it. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the point the Senator asked again with regard to 4 (a) and (b) is that, as far as the law is concerned, there is no county that can contract for The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Very well. Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo, are you satisfied?
Yes Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.
(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. If you allow me, I still have the Business of the week in Statement No. (e). I have been patiently waiting for it to be called out.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Proceed then. BUSINESS FOR THE WEEK COMMENCING TUESDAY 26TH, FEBRUARY, 2016
(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. Hon. Senators, this is the Business for the week starting Tuesday 26th April, 2016 as follows:-. On Tuesday at 12.00 p.m., there will be a meeting of the Rules and Business Committee (RBC) to schedule the Business of the week and, subject to the resolutions and decisions of that meeting, the following Bills will be considered. 1. The Universities Amendment Bill (Senate Bill No. 31 of 2014); which is at the Committee of the Whole; 2. The County Assembly Services Bill (Senate Bill No. 27 of 2014); which is at the Committee of the Whole; 3. The County Hall of Fame Bill (Senate Bill No. 33 of 2014); which is at the Committee of the Whole 4. The County Governments Disaster Management Bill (Senate Bill No. 40 2014); which is at the Committee of the Whole; 5. The County Governments Amendment Bill (Senate Bill No. 18 2014); which is at the Second Reading. On Wednesday 27th April, 2016, the Senate is expected to continue with Business that will not be concluded during Tuesday’s sitting including the various Bills that I have already cited. On Thursday 28th April, 2016, the Senate will consider Bills, Motions and any other Business that may be scheduled by the RBC. Allow me to take this opportunity to congratulate and thank my colleagues for a very fruitful week especially the work we did this morning. We cannot over-emphasize the importance of ensuring that our athletes participate in the Rio de Janeiro Olympics in August this year. That would not have been possible without the support of this House. I am happy and proud, being a Senator, because I know what we did this morning is an The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I want to thank the Senate Majority Leader and also seize this opportunity to urge him to consider the relationship between the Senate and the media during the next meeting of the Rules and Business Committee (RBC). Early in the week, we debated the issue of the funding of the Council of Governors (CoGs) and made far-reaching contributions that finally culminated in a directive that the Chairman of CoGs appears before the Committee of the Whole, including the National Treasury, but nothing was mentioned in the media. In an off-the-cuff debate in the National Assembly over the same matter, when they were throwing tantrums about the meeting in Meru, it received extensive coverage in the media. Unless we address some of these things, in future, it will contribute to some misguided people thinking that the Senate is not up to the task or not worth existing. We better take it seriously. We also want the country to know that we are working and they can only know that through the media.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Very well. I cannot over- emphasise that. The ability of the PR officer has been put in doubt by this House. It is, therefore, appropriate that this is discussed at that level. You should not have over- committed the President to tomorrow morning. We are aware that it shall be signed at 7.30, but if he signs at 10.00 a.m. what will we think? So, be careful. Next Order!
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Debate is open, but I see no interest in further contributions. I, therefore, call upon the Mover to reply.
(Sen. (Prof) Kindiki): Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. I humbly request that you defer the putting of the Question on this matter to the next sitting day, under Standing Order No. 54(3).
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): It is so ordered.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): The Senate Majority Leader, I will call for Division on Order No.8 on Wednesday. So, make sure that your Whip works properly. For Order No.9, I call upon you to move. Next Order!
(Sen. (Prof) Kindiki): Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, as has been the tradition, I have requested the Chairperson of the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget to move this Bill on behalf of the Senate Majority Leader.
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Very well. That is quite in order.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I beg to move the following Motion:- THAT, the Division of Revenue Bill (National Assembly Bill No.4 of 2016) be now read a Second Time. This is a very important Bill that provides for the equitable division of revenue raised nationally between the national Government and the county governments in the 2016/2017 Financial Year. The object of this Bill, as clearly set out in it, is about the equitable sharing of revenue, which is the main principle that underpins devolution in this country. It also provides for two things; the equitable division of revenue raised nationally between the national Government and the county governments and conditional allocations to county governments, in accordance with Articles 202 and 187 of the Constitution. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the Bill originated in the National Assembly, where The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Before the Senator responds, one of the duties of the Chair is, not only to chair the Plenary, but also to guide the passing of Bills into law. It is one of the mandates of the Chair to guide the House. So, as you reply, I may request that you comment on the constitutionality of the CDF being The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I second this Bill which is in our circle of events in the Senate. I thank the Chairman of the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget for offering me the opportunity to second it. First, may I share with Members what Mahatma Gandhi said. This is what he said:- “The world has enough for the needs of all men and women, but not enough for the greed of a few men.” Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, when I look at the increase in the amount of money that we are taking to the county governments - that is the conditional and sharable revenue totaling to Kshs302,197,516,719 - I can confidently tell the people of Kakamega County and other counties that this money is enough for the needs of the Kenyans. However, it is not enough for the greed of their governors. During Mahatma Gandhi’s days, corruption was not a big problem in the world. Like all the great thinkers in the world, Mahtma Gandhi was thinking ahead of his time. Now, the time is here and the world is exploiting her resources better, but the few men of the world in the national and county governments are making it difficult for Kenyans to enjoy their basic needs. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I thank and applaud the Kenya Revenue Authority (KRA) because without the KRA, the ordinary revenue-excluding the Appropriation-In- Aid (AIA) - would not have realised the increment in sharable revenue from Kshs1.2499 billion to Kshs1.38 billion. Therefore, we must applaud the KRA although they can do better. I support this Bill wholeheartedly without any amendment because we should carry out oversight more. President Uhuru Kenyatta said that he is not going to start new projects. We should also say our business is not to ask for more money, but to exercise better oversight over the counties so that the projects that have stalled should also be completed. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I want to laud this Bill because the free maternal healthcare has been catered for. It has been allocated a whopping Kshs4.1 billion. We have to be very cautious about the free maternal healthcare. We have heard the Chairman condemn the misuse of public funds for ferrying watermelons to the conference in Meru. There are such many cases that we need to condemn across the republic. You are a Doctor of Medicine. Free maternal healthcare in a general hospital should simply mean that there is water for every delivery so that delivery is done in a clean environment. There should be gloves and other cheap drugs that are used during delivery. It, therefore, beats logic that governors are obsessed with organising investors’ conferences and installing street lights and forgetting that our maternity facilities must have water. Women had gone to deliver in a hospital because the President had announced that there is free maternal care. When they discovered that there was no water, they chose to go back and deliver at home. Hon. Senators, we must push our governors to think in terms of appropriate technology. We do not want our governors to be misguided the way the national The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
On a point of information, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I share the passion and condemnation that Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale is making and I agree with him. In this country, there are three arms of Government and power is divided to the Judiciary, the Executive and the Legislature. The President cannot and has no power to prosecute anybody. The President is trying as much as possible. Indeed, the kind of statements he makes is supposed to be a signal to those responsible in certain areas to act and know that he will support such action. He as an individual, as my brother knows very well, cannot arrest, accuse or take anybody to court. Thank you.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, allow me to accept that as a point of information. Since he is close to the President, he knows those things. I can only The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Let me also remind you that you are a Member of the County Public Accounts and Investments Committee (CPAIC). Therefore, in that Committee, you can also summon a governor and do something.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. You know, fighting corruption is difficult. Kenya will be a wonderful world the moment a critical number of Kenyans who are in constitutional offices will make it their business to fight corruption and that is the way to go. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I am concerned by what goes on in the 47 counties by virtue of having been the Chairperson of the CPAIC until recently. I really wonder when I see what is happening in the national Government. Could it be that Africans are not ready or fit to lead African governments? The Senator for Laikipia had an opportunity to travel many times to Southern Rhodesia before it became Zimbabwe. He also had opportunities to travel many times to South Africa before Independence. The beauty, order and cleanliness that you saw in Blantyre, Johannesburg and Durban is gone simply because the Blackman is now in charge. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, before I was given a point of information, I was pursuing the issue of Level 5 hospitals. Two days ago, Kakamega became the shame of devolution. The media discovered that patients were sleeping on folded carton boxes yet there are beds in Kakamega Provincial General Hospital; a hospital that receives conditional allocations of more than Kshs400 million for Level 5 hospitals. Coming shortly after that, God forbid, a mother from Mabole Village in Butere where the Governor comes from died after a caesarean section. This is the question I ask myself; why did they accept the job? They either did not want to do the job or knew they could not do. Let us keep on pushing and I know we will succeed in the fullness of time. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I want to make a few comments on how the balance of the money will be spent at the national Government. There are no angels up there either. If you look at Table 2, you will find that Kshs11.6 billion has been set aside for reengineering of the NYS. We do now know how much has been lost in the NYS because Ms. Anne Waiguru is still free, Ms. Kabura still insists on her affidavit and my brother and friend, Dr. Nelson Githinji, is facing problems. Did we really have to reserve Kshs11.6 billion to this opaque thing called the NYS? In fact, Members of the National Assembly are letting us down. You should have demanded that you be given a list of all the projects that this Kshs11.6 billion will be spent on the re-engineering of the NYS. A whopping Kshs14.3 billion will be spent this year on the national safety net, a very good thing for our older members of society. However, we cannot allow it. May be because we are not pursuing these billions in the national social safety net programmes, we do not know whether another scandal is unfolding. We need to streamline the funds going into the national safety net programmes so that people do not use it as a cash cow. I can see that a whopping Kshs17.58 billion will be spent on laptops. Yes, we want our children to be given laptops, but what happened to the same amount of money that was given for the same project last year, the year before and the year before that? Corruption! The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
That, I come there and cheer and say, “Mr. President---”
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, sorry I am orderly for now. One can laugh at me for these things, especially a member of the public who has never been in my part of the world. However, let me remind you, you who is laughing at me for saying that we are feeling pain for no projects being seen in our place; let me remind you of the story of Correta King who was the wife of Martin Luther King Jnr. During the famous Mississippi walk, a white friend who used to go to the same church with Correta King asked her: “Why are you people walking?” Correta King told them: “You need to be black to know why we are marching.” In the same vein, those of you who are laughing – I do not have the mogul of Nyeri County in mind, I am just looking at him – you need to come from these areas where there are no projects to know why we feel this way. I support.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I support the Bill whole heartedly. Secondly, let me assure the Kakamega Senator that, first, there are projects in every part for this country.
Secondly, we are not laughing at him at all because he is only currently in the The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Hon. Senators, we want to dispose of this business today. We still have another three Senators willing to contribute.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I will take the shortest time that I can manage; not more than five minutes. I support the Division of Revenue Bill. The The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I will be brief. First, I want to support this Bill and thank the Committee for ensuring that for the first time, we did not go through a mediation process. The Chairman of the Commission on Revenue Allocation (CRA) said that the tax exemption of the Standard Gauge Railway (SGR) is one of the reasons we are not collecting enough revenue. It is important that we look at all the components of SGR. We have locomotives, scanners and facilities that are supposed to be imported. It is also important to look at their prices. While the governors continue to build facilities, we need to know how we will deal with the human resource component because ethnicity is high in county governments. The nurses are being sent back to the national Government and their salaries held by the county governments. We, as the Senate, need to work on that and ensure cohesion in the counties. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, it is also important for us to question the revenue collection in the counties. We should ensure that local revenue is collected and used in a prudent manner. There are rich people who are not educated and, therefore, do not understand the Integrated Financial Management Information System (IFMIS). They have decided to hold on to their money. It is up to the Government to come up with a system that can be used even by those who do not understand the IFMIS, so that it can collect more revenue. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, with those few remarks, I beg to support.
You have done well. Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo, I hope you can be brief like Sen. Elachi.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I rise to support this Bill. This is the fourth time that we are dealing with the Division of Revenue Bill. It is notable that every year there is an increase of funds for both levels of Government; the national Government and county governments. The national Government has budgeted for the Committee on Implementation of the Constitution (CIC), whose term expired. We should not fund bodies that have wound up, like the Transition Authority (TA). Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I have prominently seen the women affirmative action fund and CDF, which I thought should have disappeared. They have emerged as expenditure to be used by the national Government; no wonder our colleagues have been fighting oversight. It is interesting to note that my county is implementing projects even without passing the budget in the county assembly. They have started a tourist hotel costing over Kshs500 million. Is there any Government in this world that is in the business of building hotels? I wonder whether the National Treasury and Government budgeting procedures have been given to the county assemblies. Every county has started implementing their projects now and there is no line item. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, this is the last year that we are doing some real work; next year is a political year. We have to ensure that the money meant for development of counties is put on hold, so that we only allow recurrent funds rather than The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I support this Bill because the authors have tried their best to apportion the money accordingly. However, I would have been happier to see more allocation of funds to the free maternal health care because we know how the situation has been and there is still a lot to be done. I hope that we will see a lot of improvement next time because women are still suffering as their children die. We need to protect the future generation. On the enhancement of the security operations such as the police vehicles, I wish that there would have been more attention on the welfare of the security officers so that they are more comfortable, confident and encouraged to go about their duties. On the issue of affirmative action, I would have wished to see more activities planned for the adolescents who are also vulnerable people and need a lot of interventions such as vocational learning. I hope that the next Bill will tell us what they will do for the special group called adolescents. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I see that they have also allocated money to the constitutional commissions. I hope that the Independent Electoral and Boundaries Commission (EIBC) will be given more funds because the mass registration of voters was not done adequately. They were shoddy because there were no enough personnel or registration kits to prepare us adequately for the next elections. Finally, having attended a conference at the World Bank and at the International Monetary Fund (IMF) last week, I know that the world has taken judicial notice that Kenya has overburdened the tax coffers with the infrastructure expenses. It is too high and I hope that it can be looked into next time so that priority is given to what can help Kenyans. I beg to support.
(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I thank you for this opportunity. I rise to support this Bill because it marks an important step in the journey that this country has travelled. For the third year, we are witnessing the sharing of revenue between the national Government and county governments. The issue of devolution which is the centre piece of our Constitution is a testament of what Kenyans did in 2010 to radically shift and transform our mode of governance to one where as much as we seek a united and prosperous country, we also want an equal society. For that reason, I feel honoured and privileged to be part of this historic exercise. Allow me to make two more points due to constraints of time. I thank my colleagues because they have cooperated. I do not want to be the one to go against what we have agreed. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the issue of corruption has been highlighted. We must find a way of slaying the dragon of corruption that is denying the citizens of these The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
I now call upon the Mover to reply.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I take this opportunity to thank all the Members who have contributed to this Bill and those who have expressed their support. This is an important Bill that reflects that the Senate has consistently ensured that revenues to county governments have been enhanced, on yearly basis, to ensure that the counties have adequate resources to deliver services. I, therefore, thank all the Members for their contribution. I beg to move and request the Chair to defer putting of the Question to a later date.
I defer the putting of the Question to next week, Tuesday, 26th April 2016.
Hon. Senators, it is now 6.30 p.m. It is time to adjourn the Senate. Therefore, the Senate stands adjourned until Tuesday, 26th April, 2016 at 2.30 p.m. The Senate rose at 6.30 p.m. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate