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{
"id": 1399211,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1399211/?format=api",
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"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Kinyua",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": {
"id": 13202,
"legal_name": "John Kinyua Nderitu",
"slug": "john-kinyua-nderitu-2"
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"content": "On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir."
},
{
"id": 1399212,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1399212/?format=api",
"text_counter": 202,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Wakili Sigei",
"speaker_title": "The Temporary Speaker",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Sen. Kinyua, what is your point of order? Resume your seat, Sen. Lomenen."
},
{
"id": 1399213,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1399213/?format=api",
"text_counter": 203,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Kinyua",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": {
"id": 13202,
"legal_name": "John Kinyua Nderitu",
"slug": "john-kinyua-nderitu-2"
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"content": "Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I want clarity from Sen. Lomenen. I heard him say that the pastoralists follow animals and the animals do not know boundaries. Where I come from, I am a pastoralist and a person is supposed to be leading the animals."
},
{
"id": 1399214,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1399214/?format=api",
"text_counter": 204,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Wakili Sigei",
"speaker_title": "The Temporary Speaker",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Sen. Kinyua, you are out of order. That is not a point of order. Proceed, Sen. Lomenen. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1399215,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1399215/?format=api",
"text_counter": 205,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Lomenen",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": {
"id": 2940,
"legal_name": "James Lomenen Ekomwa",
"slug": "james-lomenen-ekomwa"
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"content": "Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. First and foremost, I had asked the sponsor of the Bill to consult the leadership, key elders, professionals and all the people working with the public administration. If you are very keen, you will find that some problems were caused by the public administration. For example, an area such as Kapedo, which is just a sub-location, has 10 chiefs. You will find chiefs who are employed by the public administration in Baringo area and another five chiefs employed by the same administration in Turkana County. So, how will we solve this overlapping? The Government is using money to pay all these people, and in the process, they create more harm in these communities. The other thing that the sponsor should realise is that during colonialism every county was given a size of land. For example, Turkana County is 77,000 square kilometres. These 77,000-kilometres keep reducing. The question is; who has taken part of the land? We realised that there are some people in counties who have the tendency of expanding their territories claiming that soon, when the Commission will be established, they will have a county. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the Government is in a position to solve this problem between West Pokot and Turkana. If the Government can demarcate all the boundaries, I am very sure there will be no problem. This is because these boundaries are there; they were demarcated by the colonialists. It is not possible to form other boundaries at this time. This is an emotive issue. It is not possible to select or nominate people to come and talk about boundaries between Pokot and Turkana. If the public administration has created a problem, let them be honest to the citizens of the affected counties and admit that there is a problem. For example, I hope that if a person is appointed a county commissioner, they are given a map of the area they will supervise. However, you will find that some people do not even know where they are supposed to supervise. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the land between these counties has resources such as water and minerals. You will find that when a certain community realises that there are many resources where they live, they start to fight the other community saying that the land belongs to them. Therefore, the sponsor of this Bill has to provide the timeline, where each county will organise itself by bringing all their maps, acts and memorandum by their elders, leaders and professionals so that everybody is involved in public participation and when a decision is made, no one will complain that a certain committee was biased. The sub-committee that will be formed should take time. I support what Sen. Cherarkey said that it has to take even more than six months. This is because this is a very emotive and sensitive issue. Elders, former political leaders, church elders, Non- Governmental Organisations (NGOs) and civil society groups have to be listened to. You will find that these NGOs and civil society groups have created some maps. That is not an easy thing to do. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I urge the sponsor of this Bill to let us replicate the best practice from the Kenya Forces. The Kenya Forces has been there and their maps are respected. They have demarcated these counties in a very respectable way. Therefore, in The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1399216,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1399216/?format=api",
"text_counter": 206,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Lomenen",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": {
"id": 2940,
"legal_name": "James Lomenen Ekomwa",
"slug": "james-lomenen-ekomwa"
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"content": "public participation, also consult Kenya Forces. This is because, they know where to start and end when they are mapping these counties. They are well informed. I support this Bill with amendments. Since the minutes we have been given are few, I urge the Sponsor of the Bill to give the professionals and leadership of Turkana County enough time, to give you the heavy memorandum on this issue so that, we can see the problem between us and West Pokot."
},
{
"id": 1399217,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1399217/?format=api",
"text_counter": 207,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Wakili Sigei",
"speaker_title": "The Temporary Speaker",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Sen. Orwoba, you may have the Floor."
},
{
"id": 1399218,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1399218/?format=api",
"text_counter": 208,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Orwoba",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I support the County Boundaries Bill by Sen. M. Kajwang’. I hope that this is the House that is going to pass this Bill. This is because the issue of conflicts between different counties has been there year in, year out. There have been proposals and Bills in the past trying to legislate around the conflicts that are in these various counties. Currently, we have over 18 counties that are in dispute. You have heard our Senator for Turkana speaking about the Kapedo area, which has been a dispute between Turkana and Baringo. I am glad to see Sen. Wambua here because he has raised a couple of statements with regard to boundary issues of his neighbouring counties. It is not only about these current 18 counties, there are certain communities that have not been brought to the forefront where the situation is upraising. I come from Kisii County and we saw what happened in Keroka Market, where we had both Kisii and Nyamira counties claiming a huge part of that market. It took a lot of intervention, including going to court. Lives were lost and property destroyed. There is a conversation that is not being had on why the conflict is first of all there. If you look at the issues around the various disputes, not only from Kisii and Nyamira or Turkana and Baringo, but as far as Kisumu, Siaya and Vihiga who were fighting over Maseno, it is not only about resources or the people who are living there, but also about revenue collection. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I have heard our Senator for Turkana saying that even the police should be involved because they understand and they have been there in the past, by ensuring that there is peace in the various counties. However, perhaps the Council of Governors (CoG) should have a conversation. This is because the issue of revenue collection propels most of the issues arising. As can be seen in the Nyamira and Kisii counties dispute, it was over a market and it was mostly on the revenue collection. As I support this Bill, the implementation is what we should be looking at even in terms of who will be the players. I have heard the other Senators saying that we need more than six months, but I believe that if all the stakeholders are brought to the table, like the CoG – the players of devolution - you do not need more than six months. If you have all the stakeholders in place, these disputes can be resolved even within the proposed three months. The issue is how to ensure that all the stakeholders are brought to the table. It should not be only the religious leaders, administrators and the governors, but we are talking about the people with historical knowledge of certain geographical positions. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, this is because some of the disputes are so complicated. They are not just about markets, but also about people who value certain The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1399219,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1399219/?format=api",
"text_counter": 209,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Orwoba",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "geographical features. It could be a mountain, a hill or something else. While we legislate, we should remember that we are Africans and, as Africans, we hold onto many things, including culture, which is deeply rooted in historical values. Therefore, these are the stakeholders we should be consulting or ensuring that while we legislate, they will be brought to the table. I support this Bill and also tell Sen. M. Kajwang’ that I hope most of the notes have been borrowed from past legislators. Hon. Sakaja was on this Bill before and there are many legislators who have tried to push this particular piece of legislation. I also hope that the previous deliberations considered what has been tabled today in this House. I thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir."
},
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"id": 1399220,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1399220/?format=api",
"text_counter": 210,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Wakili Sigei",
"speaker_title": "The Temporary Speaker",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Sen. Wambua Enoch."
}
]
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