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{
"id": 1399241,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1399241/?format=api",
"text_counter": 231,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Wakili Sigei",
"speaker_title": "The Temporary Speaker",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Sen. Tobiko, kindly note the change of Chair and correct."
},
{
"id": 1399242,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1399242/?format=api",
"text_counter": 232,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Tobiko",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I am extremely sorry about that. I was concentrating on issues that are touchy and sensitive to the people of Kajiado County. I did not even realise the change of Chair, but I acknowledge your presence. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, between Kajiado and Kiambu counties, we also have a bit of turmoil. It has been managed so far, but this Bill will come and cure all this. It is time because this Bill will help us sort issues. The Mediation Committee is very important. The creation of this Committee will help to maintain peace, listen to the views of the people and consider more current issues, including the population increase. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1399243,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1399243/?format=api",
"text_counter": 233,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Tobiko",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, when the Equalization Fund was passed on this Floor, there are counties or regions that missed out, yet they deserved it. Moreover, because we have never considered the issue of one man, one shilling, you find that places such as East and North Kajiado missing out in the Equalization Fund, yet they have the population that would warrant them to get more resources if issues of boundary and population density were considered. Even when it comes to consideration of landmass, Kajiado County is bigger than Rwanda. However, with all those challenges, including infrastructural and service provision, it is time that the county boundaries are reviewed. That Committee will handle these issues because we would not want to create problems and tension between Kenyans. We want to solve issues at the various county boundaries. I rise to support and strongly state that communal and historical ties must be considered. From the colonial time, the boundary between Kajiado and Machakos counties is marked by the old railway line. At Ol Oloirien, our people can identify the beacons of where the county reach. We have documentation to support it. However, today that part is considered Makueni County. They have given it another name that we do not even understand. However, we know the place is called Ol Oloirien. We need such issues to be resolved amicably. Let the rights of communities be considered and protected. I thank Sen. M. Kajwang’ for bringing this Bill."
},
{
"id": 1399244,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1399244/?format=api",
"text_counter": 234,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Wakili Sigei",
"speaker_title": "The Temporary Speaker",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Proceed, Sen. Murgor."
},
{
"id": 1399245,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1399245/?format=api",
"text_counter": 235,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Murgor",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, for giving me the opportunity to also add my thoughts to those of my colleagues. This is a very sensitive issue all over the country and among many communities. So, it is an opportune time for it to be looked into. I am grateful to Sen. M. Kajwang’ for bringing it at this time, so that it can be looked at and cure some of the issues that have been there for a long time is some places. Most of the conflicts that are there are as a result of one community or group wanting more territory. They want to add more because land does not expand. So, they encroach into their neighbours’ areas and claim it as theirs by adding it to their own. It is interesting that for some of the communities who are in conflict, there is usually land behind them, which is not occupied. They just occupy the area where they want to claim or add onto theirs, yet there is space behind them where nobody lives and there is no much activity. It is an attitude of being expansionists. They want to expand their territory, so that there is more land. Some neighbours claim different square kilometers nearly every two or three years. There is usually an addition of a square kilometers to theirs, which is not agreeable with the original that is known. Some of these are encouraged by territorial expansion attitude. Resources such as grass and water are also a reason for the conflicts, especially for us pastoralists. These are some of the things - in my thinking - that will be cured by this Bill, so that resources are shared equally or provisions are made so that whatever is on one side is also in the neighbouring side to avoid conflicts. For example, if there is no water in one neighboring area you can expect conflict in the area that has the resource. This Bill will The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1399246,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1399246/?format=api",
"text_counter": 236,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Murgor",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "probably solve that by bringing more resources to both sides so that there is equal sharing. Politics also plays a key role in some of the conflicts that we face, especially those instigated by politicians such as ourselves and others by inciting one community against another. People will fight because a politician has said they are being marginalized and so forth and, therefore, they conflict. This Bill will tame such utterances, so that no politician will utter words that will make communities fight. Maps and history are key components that should be followed when pursuing territories and boundaries between communities, areas and counties. For example, where was it in the colonial times? The maps will also help, so that we do not fight over what we think we know. Some of our opinions are as new as in the 1980s and may not be true or agree with what was there in the 1940s, 1930s, and 1920s. Some old maps should be used to determine which area belongs to whom and which community occupied where. Some of the resources could be the reason for redrawing new maps and moving into new territories. However, if we look into older maps and history, especially, for us pastoralists, we made movements into areas that should be looked into. Who was grazing in which area when and such traces of the past will help. In addition, it should be emphasised at this point, that services to the people matter. These services should be given equally to the citizens on either side. Sometimes, services are given discriminately, which brings conflict among people. You will find that a minority group under a certain county will be given limited service. Whereas the majority will take the lion's share. This is also a reason for conflict and the desire to move out or bring in new people so that they can join their efforts to survive and get services from another county. Therefore, if services were given adequately and, in a way, that there is no discrimination, it would limit and eradicate some of the conflicts we have. I support the Bill."
},
{
"id": 1399247,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1399247/?format=api",
"text_counter": 237,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Wakili Sigei",
"speaker_title": "The Temporary Speaker",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Thank you, Sen. Murgor. Hon. Members, there seems to be no other Member interested in contributing to this Bill. I call upon Sen. M. Kajwang’, the Mover of the Bill, to reply."
},
{
"id": 1399248,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1399248/?format=api",
"text_counter": 238,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. M. Kajwang’",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": {
"id": 13162,
"legal_name": "Moses Otieno Kajwang'",
"slug": "moses-otieno-kajwang"
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"content": "Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. I thank the Senate Leader of Majority, Sen. Cheruiyot, for seconding the Bill. I also thank all the Senators who have contributed to it. This is one of the Bills that have received the contributions of many Senators considering the situation of county boundary disputes across the country. As we speak, there are active conflicts between Kisii and Nyamira counties, Makueni and Taita Taveta counties, Kisumu and Kericho counties, and Vihiga and Kisumu counties. When moving this Bill, I indicated about 40 Petitions relating to boundary disputes. I also mentioned some things that some Members did not consider when they made their contributions. This Bill does not attempt to rewrite the boundaries of counties. It will be good for us to go back to history. As I was processing this Bill, I took the opportunity to read some of the transcripts from the 1962 Constitutional Conference. Some of those conversations were held at Lancaster. The Independence Constitution defined districts. It was in Article 36 of the Independence Constitution which addressed the composition of the Senate. It is under the composition of the Senate that the districts were The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1399249,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1399249/?format=api",
"text_counter": 239,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. M. Kajwang’",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": {
"id": 13162,
"legal_name": "Moses Otieno Kajwang'",
"slug": "moses-otieno-kajwang"
},
"content": "defined. Article 36 of that Constitution said that, Kenya shall be divided into 40 districts and Nairobi region and each district shall elect one Senator. That was at independence. Therefore, the definition of the number of districts was in the Constitution. The independence Constitution did something that the 2010 Constitution did not do. This is because the boundaries of these districts were put in the Constitution and there was a Schedule to Part 1. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the first district whose boundaries were defined was Tana River. The District and Provinces Act by and large took the boundaries of districts as contained in the Independence Constitution. Between 1963 and 1992, from the 40 independent districts, by 1992 we had 46 districts that formed the basis of the counties that we have today. The additional districts were Migori which was hived off South Nyanza, so we ended up with Migori and Homa Bay instead of South Nyanza. Tharaka Nithi was hived off Meru. Makueni came off Machakos. Bomet came off Kericho. Vihiga which came off Kakamega in 1990 and Nyamira came off Kisii in 1989. That is how we ended up with the 46 plus one. Subsequent to that, President Moi and Kibaki, created almost 200 additional districts. We must also recognize that when the Constitution was being written, interestingly in the history of this Republic, I think President William Ruto was the Chair of the Select Committee on Constitutional Reform in Parliament. Consequently, when people went to Naivasha, they were looking for a quick solution to something that was very sticky on how the territory of Kenya would be divided. Would it be on the basis of regions or districts? However, at the time people were going to Naivasha, there had been almost 200 districts that had been created by the late President Moi and Kibaki since, the districts were being created for political reward. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, it is on record that in 2009, the High Court declared that all districts created after 1992 were unconstitutional. The reason was the Presidents would issue decrees to create districts and then they legalize thereafter. This is what led to the men and women who gave birth to this Constitution in Naivasha to go back to the 1992 District and Provinces Act. It was safer. It was easier to go back to 1963, which had 40 districts but because the districts had been validated only up to 1992, that was the threshold or benchmark that the crafters of our Constitution utilized. Was there a science? Perhaps, not. If you read the report of the Commission, there was something called the Royal Boundaries Commission. The 40 original districts were created on tribal grounds. It was more of ensuring that each tribe had its own conclave which they could control and where they could feel comfortable. On the 40 original districts, history tells us that three quarters of them were composed of entirely one tribe and the other quarter you would find one tribe would dominate almost 90 or 80 per cent. We keep having these problems with our counties because they have been inherited from districts created on tribal basis. Those of us who sit in the accountability committees such as Sen. Cherarkey and Sen. Sifuna, every time the Auditor-General tell us that county “X” has failed to leave up to the requirements of the law on ethnic composition. Therefore, we must go back to the The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1399250,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1399250/?format=api",
"text_counter": 240,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. M. Kajwang’",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": {
"id": 13162,
"legal_name": "Moses Otieno Kajwang'",
"slug": "moses-otieno-kajwang"
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"content": "law and ask ourselves whether we are being relevant. A county that was formed on the basis of a district that was formed on the basis of ethnicity, how then do we expect to be heterogeneous all of a sudden and yet it was ethnically homogeneous at the point of creation? I want to assure and allay the fears of those colleagues, who think that in this Bill we are attempting to rewrite the boundaries of counties. I want to challenge them to go to the Constitution that we had during Independence which defined the original 40 districts and compare with the District and Provinces Act. If they can cite any alteration, I will gladly withdraw this Bill because it is not my intention to cause any further strife over and above that which has existed. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the team that was in Bomas, the National Dialogue Committee (NADCO) team, and the report which this House has already adopted, pointed out that boundary disputes are a threat to cohesion. They encouraged Parliament to quickly enact a law that will give effect to the constitutional provision on alteration of county boundaries. I want to call upon Senators that when we go back to our base, let us not give the impression that this Bill seeks to rewrite or amend anything. There are those who have argued about the districts created after 1992, and my colleagues, Sen. Wambua mentioned Mwingi District and Sen. Kavindu Muthama mentioned the 1997 additional districts that were created. It is the courts of law that declared them to be unconstitutional for reasons that were even canvassed in Parliament. I have seen the parliamentary HANSARD where each Member of Parliament wanted a district to be created in their backyard because they thought it would come with benefits, but then the court ruled that it was improper and unconstitutional. I just want to give that comfort that this Bill does not intend to introduce any alteration. This Bill has been moved by a Member from the opposition and has been seconded by the Senate Majority Leader. I will take time, in consultation with the leadership of the Majority and Minority sides, to ensure that all the good suggestions that have come from Members are incorporated as we proceed to the next stage of this Bill. I want to thank hon. Members of Senate for their dedication, commitment and living up to their calling as defenders and protectors of devolution. I want to assure them that when the amendments come, we shall consult to make sure that every amendment that we put forth, we are able to explain its merit or demerit. We are going to learn lessons from past attempts and make sure that this Bill does not suffer in the other House, the same way it has done in the past. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, with that, I beg to reply and request that you defer the putting of the question to a later date pursuant to Standing Order No. 66(3). Thank you."
}
]
}