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"speaker_name": "Sen. Kathuri",
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"content": " Are you through or do you need two more minutes?"
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"speaker_name": "Sen. Wakili Sigei",
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"content": "Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am actually concluding. Although the Bill is repealing certain provisions of some Acts such as the Leadership and Integrity Act, EACC Act, Anti-Corruption and Economic Crimes Act, it is amending seven provisions for good cause. The repeal of the Public Officer Ethics Act, where we made comments as a Committee in the first instance is one of the ways to ensure that once this Bill is enacted, we will have a legal framework that is able to fight the corruption across the country. We will make sure that service to the public is made within the confines of the expectations of every individual, including the persons who are serving in such public office. I support the Bill."
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"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Kathuri",
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"legal_name": "Murungi Kathuri",
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"content": " Thank you, Chair of the Committee. Proceed Sen. Wambua."
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"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Kathuri",
"speaker_title": "The Deputy Speaker",
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"legal_name": "Murungi Kathuri",
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"content": "The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
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"id": 1399545,
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"speaker_name": "Sen. Wambua",
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"id": 13199,
"legal_name": "Enoch Kiio Wambua",
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"content": "Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I am not sure what Sen. Maanzo is saying. I want to make my comments on this Bill without necessarily committing myself at this point as whether I am in support or opposed. This is for the simple reason that the Standing Committee on Justice, Legal Affairs and Human Rights has just tabled their report. We will take time to go through it and by the time we get to the Third Reading it will be clear whether this Bill merits our support or not. I will say a few things about the Bill. First, it begins by creating an obligation on an independent commission established by an Act of Parliament, The EACC Act of 2011. A commission that is deeply rooted on the supreme law, Chapter 6 on Integrity. Now that the Bill creates an obligation for a commission that is established by an Act of Parliament, what would have been easier? Perhaps to amend the EACC Act and load matters to do with conflict of interest or to come up with an independent act to deal with conflicts of interest. I will look at the report of the Committee to establish whether they have created a nexus between the EACC Act of 2011 and the proposed law. In the absence of that nexus, then we run the risk of creating confusion, by getting one law to create an obligation for another set of laws. Yesterday I followed the release of the bribery index by the EACC. I saw the Chairman and my bishop, Dr. David Oginde at pains declaring that Kenyans are bribing more and the cost of it is has also almost doubled. I saw him at pains saying that if we do not tame bribery, then corruption is going to kill us as a country. Those words coming from a respected Bishop must begin to ring a bell in the minds of all public officers and every Kenyan. I also heard him prescribe a very easy way out of this corruption problem - do not ask, do not give and do not take. If we were to then follow that prescription, perhaps we would live in a better country. Part Three, Clause 10 of the Bill makes reference to decision making or people in positions of decision making in elaborating what a conflict of interest means. I want to read it because to me it is very important. Clause 10 (1)(a)- “A public officer shall not make a decision or participate in making a decision relating to the exercise of an official power or the performance of a duty or function, if the public officer knows that in the making of the decision, the officer would be in conflict of interest”. I have read this Clause with more than passing interest, because we have just passed a law on affordable housing. If this law had been enacted before passing the affordable housing law, then perhaps the question that we would be asking ourselves is that whether persons holding public office, who have been at the centre of decision making in the affordable housing law, are conflicted or not. I want to extend that thinking a little further. Is a public officer, who is an expert in national security, working in the Ministry of Interior and National Administration or any other ministry and is paid by the Government of Kenya, conflicted if and when during his free time, he gives lectures in a university to equip young people with matters of national security?"
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"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Wambua",
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"speaker": {
"id": 13199,
"legal_name": "Enoch Kiio Wambua",
"slug": "enoch-kiio-wambua"
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"content": "The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
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"id": 1399547,
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"speaker_name": "Sen. Wambua",
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"content": "I asked myself the second question: If a medical doctor who is an expert in dental health and is paid by the Government of Kenya in a public hospital, is found offering dental care in a private clinic in his free time, under the proposed Bill by the Committee on Justice, Legal Affairs and Human Rights, are we concluding that the doctor would be conflicted? Lastly, a mechanical engineer works in the Ministry of Trade, and during their free time, they have established a garage for their son, nephews, cousins, relatives, or friends. Are they conflicted?"
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"id": 1399548,
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"speaker": null,
"content": "[The Deputy Speaker (Sen. Kathuri) left the Chair]"
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"speaker": null,
"content": "[The Temporary Speaker (Sen. Wakili Sigei) in the Chair]"
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"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Wambua",
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"content": "Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, this matter of conflict of interest is such an important matter that perhaps – I will take time to look at the report by the Committee on Justice, Legal Affairs and Human Rights – we need to ask ourselves to what extent do we go in defining conflict of interest. Is it possible to define conflict of interest in law? I say those things as I am guided by our own Standing Orders, Standing Order No.104 of the Senate. It mandates and obligates a Senator who wants to make a comment or debate on a matter in which they have pecuniary or proprietary interest first to declare that interest. A public declaration of interest or a declaration of interest in writing, is a cure to the consequences of the conflict. In that case, if I am a medic serving in a public hospital and declare in writing that I am also involved in a private clinic, is the writing enough to cure the consequences of the conflict? I would like to conclude. However, I would like to see what the Committee has said on the provisions of Clause 7 of the proposed law. The proposal in the Bill is that the Commission can act Suo Moto on its Motion to investigate conflict of interest. We live in this country - I am not saying this will happen - however, we know that commissions that are supposed to be independent in the discharge of public service, more than once, have been used by those in authority as weapons to harass and torment people who hold a different view, especially a political view. My caution is, if this law passes, the law must not be the reason the Ethics and Anti-Corruption Commission (EACC)--- I have heard you say that the Committee on Justice, Legal Affairs and Human Rights is proposing bringing on board other entities and agencies that will implement the provisions of this law. I am praying and hoping that when this Bill becomes law, then it will not create an excuse for either the EACC or any other public entity under the control of the current Government or future governments to harass people who hold a different political opinion. This is not a new thing that I am saying, it has happened before, and I hope it will not happen this time. As I conclude, let me reiterate that we legislate because we do not legislate for ourselves, our political parties or coalitions. We legislate for this country and posterity. I hope that after going through the Committee on Justice, Legal Affairs, and Human Rights"
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