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{
"id": 1399601,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1399601/?format=api",
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"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Cheruiyot",
"speaker_title": "The Senate Majority Leader",
"speaker": {
"id": 13165,
"legal_name": "Aaron Kipkirui Cheruiyot",
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"content": "As I listened through the presentation, there were very useful insights that came from our colleagues together with yours, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, being the Chair of the Committee. I have had the opportunity to read through what you have proposed as the Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs (JLAC). There are various amendments but, curiously, as Sen. Olekina says, it is something I want to encourage every Chairperson of a Committee. This is a trick we have used as a House over the years, which, unfortunately, some of our chairpersons have yet to appreciate, and this is something you need to do. There is the story of the camel and the tent. The camel only asked to have its head shelter because of the sweltering heat of the desert. Before long, the whole body was inside the tent, pushing in slowly. This is the policy we adopted as a Senate a long time ago. Each time we have legislation before us, anything that states \"National Assembly does this\" is replaced by “Parliament.” I do not know why Committee Chairpersons, the Legal Services Directorate staff, and the committee clerks forget this golden rule. This is something we have done over the years. It will take time for the organs and instruments of the Government to appreciate that we are a bicameral Parliament. It has been 14 years or 12 years, suppose you remove the two years before the election of 2012, since the Constitution was promulgated. In that case, it is now 12 years into a bicameral system of Parliament, yet, when you get Bills, so long as they have come from the Government Printer and the Office of the Attorney General, then 90 per cent of the time, even on matters that the Constitution has specified that it is something that Parliament will handle, chances are they will write that it is a National Assembly. Sometimes, I do not know whether it is mischief on their part or lazy drafting. I believe this is an effort of copy pasting. You know how people worked in this country long before the days of Chat GPT. Copy and paste was a way of doing the assignment and carrying out your responsibility. Therefore, the drafters who handle many of the Bills from outside the precincts of Parliament would simply copy any provisions. Where there is the word “Parliament,” they are likely to write “National Assembly.” Many have yet to appreciate that those two names are no longer synonymous, as they were before 2010, and are distinctively different. I encourage the drafters of the Bills, Members of various committees, the Chairpersons and Members of staff who work with our committees that so long as it is not a Constitutional provision and this will only be limited to Money Bills – even though we will get to eventually. If it is being stated that “the National Assembly Committee” responsible for this as Sen. Olekina pointed out, the obvious amendment I expected was deleting that clause and inserting the word “Parliament.” This makes it plain and simple. People appreciate the Senate and move away from this. Sen. Crystal Asige mentioned something that I totally agree with regarding the overall objective of this Bill. It is not for want of good laws that we continue to struggle with the challenge of corruption and conflict of interest. We have a values problem, which is the challenge."
},
{
"id": 1399602,
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"text_counter": 306,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Cheruiyot",
"speaker_title": "The Senate Majority Leader",
"speaker": {
"id": 13165,
"legal_name": "Aaron Kipkirui Cheruiyot",
"slug": "aaron-cheruiyot"
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"content": "The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1399603,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1399603/?format=api",
"text_counter": 307,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Cheruiyot",
"speaker_title": "The Senate Majority Leader",
"speaker": {
"id": 13165,
"legal_name": "Aaron Kipkirui Cheruiyot",
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"content": "People are not corrupt because there is a lack of good legislation or lack of enforcement. As a society, we have accepted that as a way of life. Everybody wants a shortcut, to be bribed and make a quick buck out of whatever situation; from voters to politicians, members of the private sector, and anyone. There are very few people who can stand and say 'no' and just do the right thing. We have many legislations we consider in Parliament, the reports, and the offices we created in the 2010 Constitution. They will not work until we begin to appreciate that corruption is a values problem and begin to teach it from a young age in our school systems, so that it is inbuilt in the culture of the younger generation. Unfortunately, there is little you can do with people once they have clocked the age of 18 and even sometimes less than that. If they have accepted that this is the way of life, there is very little we can do. You can only deter and that is what this legislation will do. It is the threat of going to jail and being exposed that will limit people. However, if you want to live in a country where people have discipline and obey traffic rules, then we must begin to teach this practice and culture to our children at a very young age. Unfortunately, there is very little the rest of us in this Parliament today and in this room can do. All of us who are adults already, there are very few habits that we can pick up late in life and begin to accept as a way of life. This is a fact of life As much as I agree with Sen. Crystal Asige that corruption is a values problem, which we have to deal with, then we do not have a choice. We cannot simply sit pretty and say, so long as that is how Kenyans are and that is how the world is, what do we do? Countries that have succeeded in limiting all these vices and societal ills, is on account of laws such as this, where the threat of being exposed, going to jail or losing ill- acquired wealth, makes you hold back because that is human nature. People, so long as they know that there is a risk in doing certain practices, then long after all this is said and done, at least somebody will reflect at night and think through and say, “my goodness, if I do this, what is going to happen?” Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I hope one day we can have a conversation with the Chief Justice and the Judiciary in general. I have a strong feeling that circuit is yet to be complete. I know that previously at the Bomas of Kenya, there was a conference. If you remember the infamous conference where former President Uhuru quipped, “what do you want me to do?” That was a conference that had brought together all the instruments and state agencies that are involved in this fight against corruption. We had the office of the Director of Public Prosecution (ODPP), the Ethics and Anti-Corruption Commission (EACC), the Directorate of Criminal Investigation (DCI), the Judiciary and the Legislature. I am not sure if the Legislature was represented at that particular conference. We must also begin to ask very difficult questions about our Judiciary. How can they keep on coming back to us and tell us that it is on account of poor investigations and that the cases are not properly handled, that the conviction rate is so minimal? How comes it so difficult to nab these people that are engaged in these vices, yet eventually,"
},
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"id": 1399604,
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"text_counter": 308,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Cheruiyot",
"speaker_title": "The Senate Majority Leader",
"speaker": {
"id": 13165,
"legal_name": "Aaron Kipkirui Cheruiyot",
"slug": "aaron-cheruiyot"
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"content": "The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1399605,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1399605/?format=api",
"text_counter": 309,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Cheruiyot",
"speaker_title": "The Senate Majority Leader",
"speaker": {
"id": 13165,
"legal_name": "Aaron Kipkirui Cheruiyot",
"slug": "aaron-cheruiyot"
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"content": "we know that at the end of the day, those courts like the Magistrate Courts and the High Courts, have their cases drag on forever. I was watching news today and I was shocked that the High Court has today dismissed the 2013 case of that imposter of a police officer called Waiganjo. Even a kindergarten kid knows in this country that this was an impostor. He was exposed and was in police uniform. He was doing police duties. Police officers confessed, but a judge dismissed the case. The greatest disservice we ever did to ourselves is that the Judiciary, in the passage of the 2010 Constitution, succeeded in insulating themselves against any form of scrutiny. That so long as a judge knows that whatever decision they make in the course of their duty, there is nothing that can be done to them. We will continue to have this kind of struggle. We must ask of our Judiciary, with all these billions that we continue to send to the judicial systems of this country, how comes the convictions rate are so minimal? If you say it is a case of poor investigation, surely, you want to tell me that there is not even one good investigator or one good case that EACC has handled, that a judge can look at and say this is an open-shut case, call all the witnesses, have the responses filed and set a conviction even for these simple traffic offenses. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, you have watched many times EACC raid the police officers by the roadside. If you want to kill that vice, how comes after that exposé you will never hear of that case again once they have been taken to court? This is because people know what happens. That the judges will most likely tell you to wait for the pressure to ease off. They are likely to be out on bail, then after maybe a few months, somebody reaches out to the judge from the accused side and say, ‘you know you are guilty, but if you can get me this--- Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, we must speak about these issues. If we are to win this war and have a country that is governed by the rule of law, we must be able to look at our Judges right in the eye and tell them that they are doing a disservice to this country. Their handling of corruption cases is wanting. As we reflect and do this law, the Conflict of Interest Bill, which is good, Judges are also State officers. They will equally file their reports. It will be possible to look back and tell what business they have transacted. Unfortunately, people in this country know corruption only through the eyes of politicians. They only see MPs and maybe Cabinet Secretaries, yet to complete this circuit, we must have a conversation about what is it that we missed in our judicial system that will help us fine people. How many times have you seen the Director of Criminal Investigations (DCI) or the Ethics and Anti-Corruption Commission (EACC) officers raid a county officer, a Chief Officer or a County Executive Committee (CEC) Member, found with money that they have collected as bribes, yet you know that, that case will never get anywhere? Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I encourage colleagues, as much as you may have one or two reservations about this Bill and the overall thought process of trying to tighten the reins and noose around all these challenges that we have with our country and trying to make us a better nation, a nation that is governed by good values, let us support this Bill."
},
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"text_counter": 310,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Cheruiyot",
"speaker_title": "The Senate Majority Leader",
"speaker": {
"id": 13165,
"legal_name": "Aaron Kipkirui Cheruiyot",
"slug": "aaron-cheruiyot"
},
"content": "The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1399607,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1399607/?format=api",
"text_counter": 311,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Cheruiyot",
"speaker_title": "The Senate Majority Leader",
"speaker": {
"id": 13165,
"legal_name": "Aaron Kipkirui Cheruiyot",
"slug": "aaron-cheruiyot"
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"content": "Let us propose amendments, as Sen. Olekina has said, make it better and work for everybody. In fact, tighten it around Judges. We want to put it in law, so that they go and strike it again in court and eventually, the people of Kenya can know the challenges that we are having with our judicial system. In fact, I wish, as a Committee, you had taken time to find ways of also making it possible for Judges to declare conflict. I know it is properly stated for state officers and the rest, but it needs to be specific, including mentioning whenever people reach out to them when they are handling certain matters, so that they report and it is known that you cannot do this or the other. With those very many remarks, I beg to reply and thank colleagues who have taken time to contribute to this Bill. In accordance to Standing Order No.66 (3), I beg to request that the putting of the question be deferred until a later date. Thank you."
},
{
"id": 1399608,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1399608/?format=api",
"text_counter": 312,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Wakili Sigei",
"speaker_title": "The Temporary Speaker",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Pursuant to the Standing Order No.66 (3), the putting of the question to this Bill is deferred to the next sitting of the Senate."
},
{
"id": 1399609,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1399609/?format=api",
"text_counter": 313,
"type": "scene",
"speaker_name": "",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "(Putting of question on the Bill deferred)"
},
{
"id": 1399610,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1399610/?format=api",
"text_counter": 314,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Wakili Sigei",
"speaker_title": "The Temporary Speaker",
"speaker": null,
"content": "Next Order."
}
]
}