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{
"id": 1483572,
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"text_counter": 178,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Hon. Kingi",
"speaker_title": "The Speaker",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Are you referring to the Affidavit of 13th October, 2024?"
},
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"id": 1483573,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1483573/?format=api",
"text_counter": 179,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Mr. Elias Mutuma",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "Yes, indeed, Mr. Speaker, Sir."
},
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"id": 1483574,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1483574/?format=api",
"text_counter": 180,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Hon. Kingi",
"speaker_title": "The Speaker",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Is it contained in any of the volumes or is it a standalone?"
},
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"id": 1483575,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1483575/?format=api",
"text_counter": 181,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Mr. Elias Mutuma",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is a standalone Volume, titled, Volume. VIII and I can confirm that it is with the secretariat."
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{
"id": 1483576,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1483576/?format=api",
"text_counter": 182,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Hon. Kingi",
"speaker_title": "The Speaker",
"speaker": null,
"content": " So, can the Vol.VIII be made available to hon. Senators?"
},
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"id": 1483577,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1483577/?format=api",
"text_counter": 183,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Mr. Elias Mutuma",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "Mr. Speaker, Sir, I could proceed because I will not be making reference."
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"id": 1483578,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1483578/?format=api",
"text_counter": 184,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Hon. Kingi",
"speaker_title": "The Speaker",
"speaker": null,
"content": " You may proceed."
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"id": 1483579,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1483579/?format=api",
"text_counter": 185,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Mr. Elias Mutuma",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. We object to the two POs on the ground that the very nature of a PO is that it has to be on a pure question of law. What the counsel for the governor is inviting you to do at this juncture, is to consider matters that are disputed; matters of fact. It is set of law that if an issue is contested or in dispute, that can only be determined by way of evidence. When you look at the issue of existence or nonexistence of the court orders, the county assembly has strongly opposed that line of argument and has brought evidence to show that there were not court orders. In fact, the county assembly is arguing that those court orders are either forged or a manipulation of the judicial system. That evidence can only be tested if we bring a witness before you to be able to clarify on that issue. That cannot be done by submissions from the bar. On the issue of whether the impeachment Motion met the threshold - the two- thirds rule - again, you will note that this is an issue that has been contested. We will be producing evidence before you to indicate indeed that, that threshold was met. How then, hon. Senators, are you able to make a determination without listening to the evidence or looking at the materials that both parties are relying on? We submit that the only way to do so is to allow this matter to proceed on merit and then you can question the validity of a certain fact by cross-examination, examination in chief and questioning the witnesses that will be relying or rather seeking to produce those particular evidences. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1483580,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1483580/?format=api",
"text_counter": 186,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Mr. Elias Mutuma",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "I note that the counsel has sought to rely on Rules 14 and 30 of your Rules here, to make an assertion that the decision on the two PO lies with the Speaker. We beg to differ on the following reasons. First, today the Senate sits not as a legislative House, but as a quasi-judicial body. So, any decision to be made must be made in your capacity as a quasi-judicial body. So, the question then is; who is sitting to hear the matter of impeachment of the governor? Is it the Speaker or an individual Senator? My summation is that it is the House that is seeking to listen and give a determination on the question of the impeachment of a governor. A judicial authority is usually aimed at settling a dispute between two parties. There are two ways of making that determination; the first on is on a technicality or on a preliminary basis. The second is through hearing on the merits of the case and making a determination. Either way, that decision can only come from the fact finder, from the judge, from the jury. So, the invitation that the Speaker - sitting in his capacity as a Speaker - can make this determination. This means that the decision of impeaching a governor or not impeaching a governor shall have been made by the Speaker alone who does not have the legal mandate to listen individually to an issue pertaining impeachment of a governor. On that basis then, I invite my learned friend, Mr. Njenga, to take you through the merits of the two objections."
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"id": 1483581,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1483581/?format=api",
"text_counter": 187,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Mr. Charles Njenga",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, and hon. Members. I will go straight to the objections because of time. In addition to the argument made by my learned friend, I invite the Hon. august House to consider the import and purport of Rule 2 of the Third Schedule of the Standing Orders, which grants express jurisdiction to the Senate on two things: (a) to investigate the matter; and, (b) to make determination on the particulars of the allegations. It is our submission that the power to make the determination, even on issues of law, remains always with the Senate and it cannot be derogated by the application or by the interpretation of Rule 30. Rule 30 is clear. It is only on admission, competence and any other issue regarding evidence, but not the competence of the entire Motion. I proceed to respond to the question of the court orders that I have been referred to by the Counsel. In making this response, I refer entirely to Vol. Eight, which is the replying affidavit of the County Assembly. I will add three quick points on that because of time, so that I can allow my colleague to refer to the last limb of the preliminary objection. First, we refer you to paragraphs eight to 13 of that replying affidavit that speaks to the validity of the orders. The County Assembly’s position is that those orders are invalid and cannot be validated in the manner that is provided for by the Judiciary. They cannot be validated from the Judiciary CTS portal. Once you interrogate them against the practise directions of the High Court and all courts that we have already supplied a copy of, then you will find that there is no means to verify as a House whether those orders indeed, were issued from the court. You will find the particulars at paragraph 13. We have annexed a copy of the said orders. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
}
]
}