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{
"id": 1552632,
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"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Veronica Maina",
"speaker_title": "The Temporary Speaker",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Sen. Gloria, what is your point of order before I give a ruling to Sen. Osotsi?"
},
{
"id": 1552633,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1552633/?format=api",
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"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Orwoba",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "Madam Temporary Speaker, I would like to express my empathy for Sen. Osotsi, as I understand his passion for this matter. However, as someone who has been mentored and has made efforts to follow our Rules and Standing Orders diligently, it is very clear in our Standing Orders that once an opportunity is lost, it cannot be reclaimed. I wanted to take this moment to share this information, because learning comes with a responsibility to teach others. I would like to inform Sen. Osotsi that, unfortunately, according to our Standing Orders, the opportunity is forfeited once missed. I must admit I take some pride in showing that I am learning and adhering to the rules. If you would rule in this direction, I will be very happy."
},
{
"id": 1552634,
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"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Osotsi",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": {
"id": 13588,
"legal_name": "Osotsi Godfrey Otieno",
"slug": "osotsi-godfrey-otieno"
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"content": "On a point of information, Madam Temporary Speaker."
},
{
"id": 1552635,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1552635/?format=api",
"text_counter": 612,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Veronica Maina",
"speaker_title": "The Temporary Speaker",
"speaker": null,
"content": " What is your point of information, Sen. Osotsi? The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1552636,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1552636/?format=api",
"text_counter": 613,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Osotsi",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": {
"id": 13588,
"legal_name": "Osotsi Godfrey Otieno",
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"content": "Now that Sen. Gloria is in the learning mood, I wish to inform her that you have powers under Standing Order No.1 to make a decision on matters not explicitly provided for in the Standing Orders like my case. In this particular case, I have pleaded my situation, as I was responding to a family emergency and arrived late after the debate had already started. Can you apply Standing Order No.1?"
},
{
"id": 1552637,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1552637/?format=api",
"text_counter": 614,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Veronica Maina",
"speaker_title": "The Temporary Speaker",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Thank you, Sen. Osotsi. I have listened to your plea and empathize deeply with your situation, particularly the emergency you faced. I hope it has been resolved. This House, however, is guided by Standing Orders. I wish to refer you to Standing Order No.36, which I will also highlight for the benefit of Sen. Gloria, who is currently in her learning phase and keen to understand these processes. Let us take this opportunity to learn collectively. Standing Order No. 36 reads as follows- “Resumption of Interrupted Business. Any debate interrupted under this Part shall, on coming again before the Senate or the Committee, be resumed at the point where it was interrupted and any Senator whose speech was so interrupted shall have the right to speak on such resumption for the remainder of the time available to him or her, but if such a Senator does not avail himself or herself of this right, his or her speech shall be deemed to have been concluded.” The challenge we face now is that when this debate resumed, you were called upon but, unfortunately, you were not present, and there was no prior explanation provided regarding the emergency. As such, Standing Order No.36 becomes applicable in this case. The Standing Order you referenced, Standing Order No.1, grants discretion to the Speaker only in circumstances that are not explicitly provided for in the Standing Orders. Since this scenario is already addressed under Standing Order No.36, I, as the Chair, am bound to apply it accordingly. For future cases, should you request the Chair’s discretion under Standing Order No.1, where the circumstances permit, you have my assurance that I will utilize it. However, for today’s situation, Standing Order No.36 must apply. Unfortunately, this means you have lost your opportunity to contribute on this occasion. We look forward to hearing from you in the next debate. There being no other Senator, except Sen. Osotsi, who wishes to contribute to this debate, I now call upon the Mover to reply. The Mover is well-guided to give you a chance."
},
{
"id": 1552638,
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"text_counter": 615,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Wakili Sigei",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "Madam Temporary Speaker, you can be sure that if I had an opportunity to permit my colleague Sen. Osotsi to second, definitely I would have done it because I listened to him when he contributed yesterday and he supported the report. For valid reasons, he distinguished himself as one of the Members who understood the Petition and the context of the report by the Joint Committee. Unfortunately, I am just replying to comments by Members. To begin, I would like to appreciate the following Senators who contributed to this Motion; both those who supported and those who did not. Indeed, their comments have enriched debate on this particular Motion. I appreciate Sen. Sifuna, Sen. Olekina, The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1552639,
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"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Wakili Sigei",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "Sen. Mungatana, Sen. Osotsi, Sen. Cherarkey, Sen. Orwoba and Sen. Nyamu who have spoken to this particular Motion. I would like to state three issues with regards to the general contributions from Members. Firstly, is an appreciation of the Petition by Mr. Laban Omusundi. In appreciating that Petition, Mr. Laban Omusundi understood that lawyers of county governments or any other such person seeking legal representation have an entitlement which is a constitutional right under Article 27 of the Constitution. Article 50 of the Constitution specifically speaks about fair hearing. Fair hearing includes the right to get representation of your choice. One of the major issues that the Joint Committee had to consider was that particular provision of the Constitution, whereby if on one hand you deny county governments their right to seek representation of their choice, whether in-house or procuring services from external lawyers, that right cannot be taken away. The Joint Committee was alive to that fact. It considered the entitlement which is a constitutional right. I appreciate the contribution by Members to that extent. It informed largely a number of the recommendations that we made because we needed to safeguard the constitutional provisions. Madam Temporary Speaker, I would also like to stress the point that in the Joint Committee, there was diversity of thoughts. We had nine Members of the Committee on Justice, Legal Affairs and Human Rights and nine Members of the Committee on Devolution and Intergovernmental Relations. As a matter of fact, Members of the Joint Committee were not all lawyers. Therefore, it would not have been possible to have conflict of interest for all the 18 Members, even if for one moment one would think that lawyers who sat in that Joint Committee would have had an interest. I want to state that it is not about conflict of interest that Members have alluded to in their support and speaking against the report. It is about the corruption aspect that is rampant in our county governments. Why do I say so? It is, indeed, provided, under Section 16 if the Office of the County Attorney Act, the procedure for a county government to procure services of an external lawyer. One of the major proposals which a number of Members--- To be specific, this was stated by Sen. Mungatana that if all county governments were to support their county attorneys to comply with what the law provides with regards to outsourcing legal services, we would not get to the situation we are in now concerning pending legal fees, which spills to billions of shillings from across the 47 counties in this country. The main issue here is corruption which is rampant in our counties. In the report, we have highlighted in our observations the fact that if only county governments were to comply with the law, including an observation made which we said that where possible, parties should have pre-engagement agreements where they agree on the terms of engagement, including legal fees--- If that was to happen, I believe we would definitely ensure no ballooning of legal fees and at the same time protect the rights and entitlement of our respective county governments to have legal representation of their choice. Madam Temporary Speaker, it is also not lost that this law that is in place is sufficient enough to make sure that we protect both county governments and external lawyers who equally are entitled not to be discriminated against, because denying them to The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1552640,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1552640/?format=api",
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"speaker_name": "Sen. Wakili Sigei",
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"speaker": null,
"content": "bid and provide legal services in county governments or any other Government agency will also fly in the face of constitutional provisions which speak against discrimination of any person. Therefore, the recommendations that the Joint Committee made considered major issues that stakeholders across the board raised and also the concerns that Members here had. Madam Temporary Speaker, as I conclude, I appreciate the fact that indeed the issue has already been raised by the Office of the Auditor-General (OAG) who was one of the stakeholders that contributed to this particular Petition and their observations were fully considered. Allow me to close at that. I appreciate Members who gave us the support. Madam Temporary Speaker, because of the situation we are in, pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order No.66(3), I request deferment of putting of the question to a later date. I thank you for the opportunity."
},
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"id": 1552641,
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"speaker_name": "Sen. Veronica Maina",
"speaker_title": "The Temporary Speaker",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Thank you, Sen. Sigei. Putting of the question is hereby deferred to the next sitting of this House."
}
]
}