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{
"id": 1566202,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1566202/?format=api",
"text_counter": 252,
"type": "scene",
"speaker_name": "",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "(Resumption of debate on Bill)"
},
{
"id": 1566203,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1566203/?format=api",
"text_counter": 253,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Kisang",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I also rise to make comments on this Bill. I know there are several proposals. There was one by CRA of Kshs17 billion, then the National Treasury Kshs405b illion. Kenya Kwanza leadership and the ODM leaderships agreed on Kshs450 billion. So I do not know from where the National Treasury came up with the Kshs405billion. If you remember, in the current financial year, we had agreed on Kshs405 billion. They reduced it to Kshs380 billion, and then eventually, during the mediation, we went back to Kshs387.5 billion that included Kshs425 million for libraries whose services were devolved. As the Senator for Elgeyo Marakwet County, the County has just been getting Kshs4.8 billion. For the last 10 years, I have said many times in this House that there are some 10 counties or so that are getting less than Kshs6 billion. The business that these counties have been doing basically has been putting up Early Childhood Development Education (ECDE) infrastructure, paying salaries for employees, maintenance and evaluation. There is nothing meaningful or a flagship projects that they have undertaken. If we go this way, I have said that in the next few years, some counties such as Elgeyo Marakwet, Lamu, Tharaka Nithi and Isiolo, basically devolution will have only benefited us in terms of payment of salaries, but no meaningful development. As a Senate, I do not think we will support this Bill. We will ensure we do not pass it, so that we go into mediation. Let us get the Kshs450 billion, so that our counties can do some meaningful development to our people. The reason for devolution was to The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1566204,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1566204/?format=api",
"text_counter": 254,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Kisang",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "ensure there is equitable development across the country. That was the main reason the 2010 Constitution was passed. If you go through the Bill, the CRA gave that proposal for Kshs417 billion. The National Treasury gave Kshs405 billion. The National Treasury is basing their figure on the last audited accounts and approved by National Assembly, basically financial year 2020/2021. I wonder why the National Assembly is not helping the counties by ensuring they look at the audited accounts up to date. At worst, we should be basing the sharable of revenue on Financial Year 2022/2023. Otherwise we should be basing it on financial year 2023/2024. The current Cabinet Secretary for National Treasury and Planning was the Chairperson of the Public Account Committee (PAC) in National Assembly. We will not accept anything short of Kshs450 billion, so that our counties can progress. Madam Temporary Speaker, we also urge our colleagues in National Assembly that we fast-track looking at the last audited reports for the national Government. I think I agree with the Member who has said we have had this Constitution for the last15 years. The current Constitution was passed in August, 2010. This year August, it will be 15 years. Maybe it is high time that we audit the Constitution. The Senate should be the one approving the audited accounts. We will fast track because we have the interest of the counties. The National Assembly is not interested to disperse proper resources to counties. For that reason, they can drag their feet in passing the audited accounts. Madam Temporary Speaker, I know we have discussed the Equalization Fund that has been there for 12 years or so. Every year The National Treasury allocates resources. By end of the financial year, there is nothing that has been dispersed to the counties. This is because there is a fight between some ministries of national Government and also counties on who is supposed to do the actual implementation. I know that we discussed several issues in the last Parliament in the National Assembly. The Ministries of Water Minister and Roads wanted to implement some projects and eventually nothing happened. I believe the National Assembly wanted to extend the Equalization Fund by another 10 years or so, because I think the 20 years are lapsing soon. We need to put down our foot. I heard Sen. Eddy saying we already have Kshs26 billion in National Treasury. If there is Kshs26 billion plus Kshs9 billion, that is Kshs35 billion. Why are we not dispersing? Money in the budget is not money until exchequer is released. Where is the Kshs26 billion? Why can we not transfer it into an escrow account? We need to be alive to that and we call on the governors. There is a conversation to have a county integrated revenue management system by the Treasury and then there is conversation within the CoG to resist. Why are they resisting a system that will assist them to collect revenue? We were discussing in the County Public Investments and Special Funds Committee (CPIC) that when Nairobi City County implemented a new management revenue system, they raised revenue from Kshs10 billion to Kshs12 billion in a financial year. If they can get a system that is supported by the National Treasury---"
},
{
"id": 1566205,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1566205/?format=api",
"text_counter": 255,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Veronica Maina",
"speaker_title": "The Temporary Speaker",
"speaker": null,
"content": " What is your point of order, Sen. Olekina? The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1566206,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1566206/?format=api",
"text_counter": 256,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Olekina",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "Madam Temporary Speaker, I did not want to raise this point of order or raise it on my good friend, whom I have a lot of respect for. However, our Constitution is clear. Our county governments are semi-autonomous."
},
{
"id": 1566207,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1566207/?format=api",
"text_counter": 257,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Veronica Maina",
"speaker_title": "The Temporary Speaker",
"speaker": null,
"content": " What is your point of order based on, Sen. Ledama?"
},
{
"id": 1566208,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1566208/?format=api",
"text_counter": 258,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Olekina",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "It is under Standing Order No.105 on statement of facts. Is the Senator in order to purport that the national Government, the Treasury can control the management of finance in county governments and yet, the money that is deposited in the County Revenue Fund (CRF) is protected under Article 207 of the Constitution? When you read Article 219, it says that a share of revenue raised by the national Government for a county government shall be released without undue delays or any deductible. So, is the good Senator in order to propose that county governors should agree to the Treasury controlling their revenue-making systems?"
},
{
"id": 1566209,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1566209/?format=api",
"text_counter": 259,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Veronica Maina",
"speaker_title": "The Temporary Speaker",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Sen. Kisang’, can you clarify whether that is what you are asking for?"
},
{
"id": 1566210,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1566210/?format=api",
"text_counter": 260,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Kisang’",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "Madam Temporary Speaker, the good governor and the Minority Whip have misunderstood me. I said what the National Treasury is trying to do and which is a good thing, is to look for a good county revenue integrated management system. They are basically giving them a grant, a donation, so they do not have to use their own revenue to buy a system, just the way the counties are enjoying the Integrated Financial Management Information System (IFMIS) on the expenditure side of the revenue. What is wrong with giving them a system to collect their own revenue? They will be able to support the system on their own and have part of the system domiciled in their own server or in a cloud. Therefore, the National Treasury or the national Government will not control the revenue. They are only assisting them by giving them a system. In the past, they partnered to have an equipment system, but it was a scam. They are now planning to get additional things. However, this is not managing the system. It is helping them so that they can have a standardized ICT system instead of others going to Safaricom and others going to different people. Madam Temporary Speaker, it will also be easy for us to audit. You can imagine auditing or checking 47 county revenue systems."
},
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"id": 1566211,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1566211/?format=api",
"text_counter": 261,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Veronica Maina",
"speaker_title": "The Temporary Speaker",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Sen. Ledama, are you clear now on the issue? I will give you one more minute to clarify. Sen. Kisang’, you minutes will be paused."
}
]
}