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{
"id": 1566692,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1566692/?format=api",
"text_counter": 109,
"type": "scene",
"speaker_name": "",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "(Question proposed)"
},
{
"id": 1566693,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1566693/?format=api",
"text_counter": 110,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Hon. Kingi",
"speaker_title": "The Speaker",
"speaker": null,
"content": "Now the Floor is open for debate. The Hon. Osotsi."
},
{
"id": 1566694,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1566694/?format=api",
"text_counter": 111,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Osotsi",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": {
"id": 13588,
"legal_name": "Osotsi Godfrey Otieno",
"slug": "osotsi-godfrey-otieno"
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"content": "Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I echo the statement by Sen. Sifuna that this disbursement schedule that we pass for equitable share and also additional allocation has become a ritual. No one takes it seriously, especially at the National Treasury, not in terms of the amounts, but in terms of the time when the money is sent. Something has to be done about this because it seems as if junior officers in the National Treasury are exercising powers that they do not have, and which the Senate has because when we pass this Schedule, it is like law, but it is never be followed by the National Treasury. This is one issue that we really need to interrogate, to ensure that when we pass a disbursement schedule, the National Treasury must look for the money and get it to the counties Mr. Speaker, Sir, ideally, when we pass the Division of Revenue Bill in this House, that money should be sent in whole to the counties. Appreciating the fact that the Government has to have a way of collecting that money, that is why we decided that we send it in bits per month, but even that, they are not able to follow. We should either amend the law to make it mandatory that the Schedule must be complied with or stop this exercise altogether because it is not making sense. On additional allocation, this month is ending this week and then we start the month of June. I wonder, even if this money is sent to the counties, whether they will have time to absorb it. That why I support the sentiment that instead of sending this money in two tranches, it should just be sent in one tranche tomorrow, so that counties have at least a month to absorb it. Otherwise, we will be just creating an opportunity for this money to be plundered or taken back because it has not been spent. I support with that addition; that maybe the Committee should insist that this money should be sent in one tranche at ago."
},
{
"id": 1566695,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1566695/?format=api",
"text_counter": 112,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Mandago",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": {
"id": 13577,
"legal_name": "Kiplagat Jackson Mandago",
"slug": "kiplagat-jackson-mandago"
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"content": "Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I support the sending of money to counties for this conditional allocation. However, I want to agree with Sen. Ososi that it is time we amend the law to make it compulsory for the National Treasury to send the money to counties, as has been allocated per the Schedule. Hon. Speaker, we may also want to amend the Public Finance Management (PFM) Act, so that we separate the National Treasury from the business of managing finances of the national Government. This is because there is confusion in the National Treasury, where it seems to behave as if it is a treasury of the national Government and county governments have to go there and beg. The National Treasury is supposed to serve the two levels of government in an equal measure. It is saddening to note that sometimes salaries for workers in county governments delay, but the salaries in national Government agencies and the public service are on time. The delay is because the Disbursement Schedule is not being followed by the National Treasury. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1566696,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1566696/?format=api",
"text_counter": 113,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Mandago",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": {
"id": 13577,
"legal_name": "Kiplagat Jackson Mandago",
"slug": "kiplagat-jackson-mandago"
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"content": "As we support the passage of this Schedule, we are concerned that the National Treasury has continuously failed to honour the Schedule that this House has developed, putting service delivery in counties into jeopardy. By failing to follow the Disbursement Schedule, the National Treasury is continuously accumulating pending bills in counties and creating a situation where businesses are collapsing. One of the purposes of government is to create employment. If we continue creating pending bills, we are destroying businesses that are employers of other Kenyans. Not all Kenyans will be employed by the Government or work in the public service. There are Kenyans who are employed by Kenyan entrepreneurs who are running businesses. Therefore, when the National Treasury delays or fails to follow that Disbursement Schedule, they are not only creating a problem for county governments, but also generally in the economy. I suggest to the Senator for Mandera and the Chairperson of Budget and Finance Committee that they consider bringing amendments to the PFM Act, so that we can streamline this process and ensure that funds go to county on a timely manner. I support."
},
{
"id": 1566697,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1566697/?format=api",
"text_counter": 114,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Joe Nyutu",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I also rise to support Motion on the Disbursement Schedule because we have had issues with counties. Every time we have an opportunity to meet governors or people who work for county governments in our counties sometimes they take us to task. We always tell people in our counties that we are the people that pass the Division of Revenue Bill and, therefore, affording our counties cash resources which they spend. Sometimes the disbursement of funds takes months and, therefore, service delivery is affected in a negative way. As we support this Motion, it is also important to emphasize that the National Treasury follows strictly the Disbursement Schedule that we are going to pass, so that our counties can plan. Mr. Speaker, Sir, when you do not know when funds will be available to you, it is very hard for you to plan. For the counties to offer services, they have to do proper planning in good time. It is only through following this Disbursement Schedule in this Motion that we are going to pass that counties can plan and deliver services to our people. We have had many problems with delayed salaries for those that work for county governments and, sometimes, counties are forced to borrow money from banks to their employees, and this attracts interest. When counties borrow money on interest and pay interest on the same, then that means that the counties, which have limited resources continue wasting funds on paying interest and yet, these funds would have gone to better use and to offer services to our people. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the National Treasury should and must follow strictly this Disbursement Schedule and disburse money at the right time and as per the Schedule, in order for counties to continue offering services in the right way. Also, we will be able to oversight. If we know that counties have received funds on time, then we will be able to ask those very important questions as to why services have not been delivered or why there are delays in delivery of the same. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1566698,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1566698/?format=api",
"text_counter": 115,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Joe Nyutu",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "Mr. Speaker, Sir, I support this Motion that this Disbursement Schedule be approved, so that we can continue doing the service that we are supposed to do to our counties. I thank you."
},
{
"id": 1566699,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1566699/?format=api",
"text_counter": 116,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Hon. Kingi",
"speaker_title": "The Speaker",
"speaker": null,
"content": " The Senate Majority Leader."
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{
"id": 1566700,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1566700/?format=api",
"text_counter": 117,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Cheruiyot",
"speaker_title": "The Senate Majority Leader",
"speaker": {
"id": 13165,
"legal_name": "Aaron Kipkirui Cheruiyot",
"slug": "aaron-cheruiyot"
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"content": " Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I rise to support this Motion by the Chairperson of our Committee on Finance and Budget. This is what has been termed as a ritual. I believe someone referred to it as a ritual, which no one adheres to. This should be of concern to us. I am, however, concerned with what is prescribed as a solution, eventually, to this problem. I have listened to colleagues try to figure out what exactly we can do to ensure that the National Treasury complies with this Disbursement Schedule that we pass. It is important to bring to the attention of colleagues that while we do this ritual every year, there is no record for the years that devolution has been in existence, that there has been compliance with the Schedule to the exact date and time. Mr. Speaker, Sir, much as people may not agree to it, this is the closest we have ever come to a disbursement schedule because many counties are either catching up with March or April. We have had instances in the past where we have gotten to June and counties have not received their December disbursements. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I know you know this for a fact. You have served as a county governor. This problem does not seem to be going away anytime soon. Therefore, as the Senate of the Republic, we must think creatively and find ways that are practical that will eventually make our counties economically viable. As they are today, this is not possible. Look at what we are passing in this Disbursement Schedule. We are passing additional resources, Kshs2.9 billion for the CAIPs. Sen. Roba must convince us that in the next Division of Revenue or when he does CARA, 2025, those counties that are yet to receive their counter-matching funds for CAIPs will be considered. Otherwise, we will suffer the prejudice of having passed resources to other counties to the detriment of other counties. There is Kshs3.24 billion that is being passed to CHPs. How unfair? It is either you have a job or you do not. If we are sending resources in the month of May to pay these people that have been working throughout the year, are we being fair to these Community Health Promoters? I just wish that we were plain and honest and told them that they do not have a salary. I know it is a stipend, but even that stipend must be timely. As much as Kshs5,000 may look like nothing to many people, if it comes in a timely manner, it could help people get by, but we are sending it at the end of the financial year. There is even an extra Kshs1.8 billion, which is basic salary arrears for health workers across our counties. I told the House last week or two months ago that we must reflect and begin to feel embarrassed that every time you hear there is a demonstration outside the Senate; nine out of 10 times, it will be health workers and it is for one reason or the other. We must confront this issue of remuneration to health workers at the county level. It is clear that there was no elaborate plan and everybody keeps pussyfooting about it. No one is clear and certain of when and how their matters will eventually be resolved. That situation cannot continue to obtain. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
},
{
"id": 1566701,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1566701/?format=api",
"text_counter": 118,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Sen. Cheruiyot",
"speaker_title": "The Senate Majority Leader",
"speaker": {
"id": 13165,
"legal_name": "Aaron Kipkirui Cheruiyot",
"slug": "aaron-cheruiyot"
},
"content": "Mr. Speaker, Sir, I hope Sen. Mandago together with the Members who serve in the Committee on Health, including Sen. Omogeni, will lead us home. They must at some point lead this House into making the right decision. They should feel bad on behalf of all Kenyans who watch doctors, nurses, health workers and all these health professionals who come outside the Senate each and every year. Today, they were there in the morning. They may be back tomorrow and maybe they are still there. It is not fair. This Committee must lead us, as a House, into making certain decisions that will resolve these issues. Mr. Speaker, Sir, previously, we were told about the challenges that were there and the reason they could not be considered jointly is that healthcare is devolved. Therefore, they would be handled by their individual governors depending on how they would manage their politics. That cannot be allowed to obtain for too long. Mr. Speaker, Sir, lastly, I leave this as food for thought for Sen. Roba, Sen. Tabitha Mutinda and my good friend, Sen. (Dr.) Boni Khalwale, as well as the Members who serve in the Committee on Finance and Budget. I was before their Committee this morning on a certain matter. Perhaps, it has reached a time where we may want to lead the country into issuing a devolution bond, the same way we issue infrastructure bonds. I raised this two years ago. It was not picked up, but I still insist that we may want to consider that because we know on average how much we consume per year. We can project based on what we have consumed in the last 10 years and what the annual increment usually looks like. It will make more sense because I hear people say that we should separate the Treasury or we should do this or the other. However, if the resources are not there, they are not there. We must find ways, just the same way the Ministry of Youth Affairs, Creative Economy and Sports and the Ministry of Roads and Transport have figured out how to fund their roads and find ways through securitization. Mr. Speaker, Sir, we can as well issue a devolution bond through which the National Treasury pays back in the subsequent month on a yearly basis, so that we know for a fact that this pool of resources is purely dedicated to devolved units. At a date and agreed time of the month, counties receive that which is owed to them. Otherwise, many businesses will continue to crash on account of supplying to a county government that you know will never pay you. People will go without salaries. Counties will be forced to borrow to pay and meet the day-to-day subsistence obligations, therefore, incurring additional costs. I, therefore, plead with the Committee on Finance and Budget to lead us into a better solution other than this one of having to wait for Exchequer releases and waiting for resources to be collected. When you have a shock in the system like we had last year with the Gen Z protests and the court decisions with regard to the Finance Bill, when counties stayed up to almost December without receiving any significant funding, then that cannot be the way and the basis upon which you run a county government. Mr. Speaker, Sir, something must give and I believe as a House, it is not beyond us to think what will be a better solution than the current system. At least, we are all in agreement that this current system does not work in the way that it was envisioned. With those remarks, I beg to support and hope that we can conclude on this matter as well as the other business that is before us. I am also happy that there are many Members who are back in the House right now, as opposed to earlier in the day. As we The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."
}
]
}