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{
"id": 1583222,
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"speaker": null,
"content": "(Question proposed)"
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"id": 1583223,
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"text_counter": 181,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Hon. Speaker",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "Hon. (Dr) Ojiambo Oundo. I see your request is the first on the screen. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for informationpurposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor."
},
{
"id": 1583224,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1583224/?format=api",
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"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Funyula, ODM",
"speaker_title": "Hon. (Dr) Ojiambo Oundo",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Thank you, Hon. Speaker. By your very guidance, probably debate may be rendered redundant. I do not see how we will raise 233 Members to challenge the formula."
},
{
"id": 1583225,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1583225/?format=api",
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"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Funyula, ODM",
"speaker_title": "Hon. (Dr) Ojiambo Oundo",
"speaker": null,
"content": "I wish the Chairman of the Budget and Appropriations Committee, having deliberated and dealt with this matter, can explain to Kenyans which criteria was used to select the 12 counties. We want to understand if it was a matter of population or the poverty index. What are the social parameters that were used to select the 12 counties considering that Kenya has been independent since 1963 and has had devolution that came into effect in 2013? All of us are interested in knowing the basis. Second, Hon. Speaker, we cannot discount the question of poverty index because it is very critical. Many of my colleagues have always complained about Sessional Paper No.10 of 1965 that deliberately marginalised some parts of this country. That is an historical matter that will take many years to be resolved. Third, I expected that fiscal discipline would be awarded some marks in terms of how much a county in own-source revenue it has raised and how much it adheres to the provisions of the Public Finance Management Act to ensure there is prudent use of public resources and there is value for money. Dropping that criterion is giving the counties a blank cheque to continuously misappropriate and misuse public resources and, generally, make them lazy not to pursue their own source revenue. Many Kenyans keep on asking why Nairobi County literally requires any resources from the national Government. It is the biggest county and all the resources are here. Why would it require resources as part of the equitable share? Hon. Speaker, with those few remarks, I support. Thank you."
},
{
"id": 1583226,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1583226/?format=api",
"text_counter": 184,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Hon. Speaker",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "Hon. Osoro, are you gesturing like you want to speak?"
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"id": 1583227,
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"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "South Mugirango, UDA",
"speaker_title": "Hon. Silvanus Osoro",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Thank you very much, Hon. Speaker. I also rise to support this Bill on the question of sharing of equitable revenue. It is about time we got a practical solution to these shareables. As we look at the national cake and how to share it across the country, we also need to ask county governments whether they are able to reach their targets in terms of their own-source revenues. Just like my colleague, Hon. Oundo has said, there are counties that really do not require such. Looking at Nairobi, for example, as a county, the amount of money it collects as own source revenue is enough to fund up to five counties by itself. They do not need any cake from the national Government and from the Exchequer. That is the debate that we need to have. Looking at the formula that has been shared by Hon. Atandi, there has been a progressive growth on what goes to devolved units. As I said earlier, we started from about Ksh320 billion or thereabouts. It then grew gradually to about Ksh385 billion. It stuck at about Ksh388 billion. We are now getting to about Ksh415 billion for the devolved units. This is a clear indication that, progressively, money is getting to people and that money is moving from the central system and going to the villages and county governments. The question we need to ask ourselves is this: is the money really getting to the people like it ought to? Does it get to the right person in the village? Does this money get used for the particular purpose that it is meant for according to the Constitution? Those are the questions that we need to ask ourselves. Going forward, this House needs to think about coming up with legislation that, perhaps, will replicate what happens at the National Government Constituencies Development Fund (NG-CDF) and apply it to county The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for informationpurposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor."
},
{
"id": 1583228,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1583228/?format=api",
"text_counter": 186,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "South Mugirango, UDA",
"speaker_title": "Hon. Silvanus Osoro",
"speaker": null,
"content": "governments. We need to come up with a formula on how this money should be spent. It should have particular votes. For example, we could say that not more than 60 per cent of the amount should be used for recurrent expenditure or salaries. As we talk about Ksh415 billion going to the devolved units, and about 65 per cent of that amount is used for salaries and other recurrent expenditure. In their budgets, there is a lot of money for the governor's office which we cannot tell what it does. It is time this House thinks through such structures. If we are able to replicate the formula used on NG-CDF to the county governments, it will have meaningful impact on the people. As it is currently constituted, we send a blank cheque to them. We give them the entire Ksh415 billion and they have their own-source of revenue which they use the way they want. About 70 per cent of it does not impact people. That is the question we need to ask. As we talk about the formula, we should find a way to have the money trickle down to villages in a particular way with a specific vote. This will ensure we do not have a situation where some local leaders or Members of County Assemblies (MCAs) turn governors into demigods, that they have to worship and kneel before so that they can get development. That is why we are fast-tracking the Ward Development Fund so that county assemblies become autonomous. They do not need to rely on the office of the governor to have the funds. As I support this, I challenge this House to think about a legislation that will take this money to the counties with a particular vote so that particular percentages are allocated for specific votes. It should be a replica of NG-CDF. We should not let a governor decide on anything because there is no cap on what they can spend so that the money reaches the people. That is the discussion we should be having. I also challenge governors and the county governments to note that we are still struggling, even as we continue growing gradually. Today, we are at Ksh415 billion. We are still struggling. Kenyans who are watching us are also struggling to identify what these billions do in the counties and whether this huge amount of money is felt in the counties. We are still struggling to understand that. Before I sit down, I challenge counties like Nairobi, Mombasa and other big counties, whether they really need this amount from the Exchequer. Their own-source revenue is enough to fund five other counties. We need to ask ourselves that question. I was looking at Nairobi county government budget and I realised it is actually triple what Rwanda passes as a national budget. It is more than the budget of a whole country like Rwanda! Their own- source revenue is a lot. It is enough to fund many other county governments. So, as I support, these are the questions we need to ask ourselves. Do counties with big cities really require the national cake? How can we replicate the NG-CDF Act on county governments so that as we send money, it is spent on a particular vote and nobody will spend it on anything else. On the question of pending bills, we should emphasise that the vote is meant for pending bills only so that we do not need to form committees. What counties do is that immediately a new governor takes over, they form a committee that is also paid by the government, by their very own county fund, to review whether the predecessor had genuine pending bills. There should be a system that checks that and a committee should not be The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for informationpurposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor."
},
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"id": 1583229,
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"text_counter": 187,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "South Mugirango, UDA",
"speaker_title": "Hon. Silvanus Osoro",
"speaker": null,
"content": "formed for that. After the committee has done its work, it is again rechecked by another committee. Those are the challenges we have as far as devolution is concerned. With those very many remarks, I still support. Thank you very much, Hon. Speaker."
},
{
"id": 1583230,
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"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "Thank you, Hon. Osoro. Hon. Members, allow me to acknowledge the following schools before we continue with the debate. In the public gallery, we have learners from Katimoril Secondary School, Kapenguria Constituency, West Pokot County; Kianjiru-Ini Secondary School, Maragua Constituency, Murang’a County; and Thome Primary and Junior School, Gilgil Constituency, Nakuru County. On my behalf and that of the House, we welcome the students, their teachers and those accompanying them to the House of Parliament. I have been requested by the Member for Gilgil to give her one minute to acknowledge and welcome the school from her constituency and all the others."
},
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"id": 1583231,
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"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Gilgil, UDA",
"speaker_title": "Hon. Martha Wangari",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Thank you, Hon. Speaker, for indulging me. I take this opportunity to welcome the students in the Public Gallery. Allow me to thank you and the Clerk of the National Assembly for offering a good training ground for our children during this Session of the 13th Parliament. It is important because some of the schools you see here, especially Thome Primary School, are located near Eburu Forest in Gilgil Constituency. It is quite a privilege for them to have the opportunity to come and observe the proceedings of this House. We hope that we can continue with the same. I welcome all the students. You should know that they can be the ones sitting here tomorrow. It will be their chance. However, let them observe the proceedings and learn today. Thank you, Hon. Speaker."
}
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}