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{
"id": 1583252,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1583252/?format=api",
"text_counter": 210,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Hon. Peter Kaluma",
"speaker_title": "The Temporary Speaker",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Hon. (Dr) James Nyikal."
},
{
"id": 1583253,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1583253/?format=api",
"text_counter": 211,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Seme, ODM",
"speaker_title": "Hon. (Dr) James Nyikal",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker, for giving me this opportunity. I rise to support the report and the proposed formula. It is an improvement on the previous one. I also appreciate the effort that has gone into developing it. However, it has limitations. It is based on only three things: population size, land area, and poverty index. Now, looking at the poverty index is looking at the reverse. It would have probably been better to look at the human development index because it tells you what people need. The poverty index tells you how much people are suffering without giving solutions. The human development index tells you the state of health, education, and the standards of living of a people. For example, in health, you would use such figures about life expectancy at birth. With further analysis, you will find out why life expectancy is shorter in this country, for instance, Nyanza compared to the central parts of the country. It will inform how long people have been in school and what they have achieved by the age of 25. Thereafter, we will look at their per capita income. I think those will give you a more robust indicator or index. You can also use practical formulas like distance to health centres. Determining how far people in a given county walk to the nearest health centre and the number of tarmac roads in kilometres per individual. Those are more direct ways of looking at it. It informs how many more tarmac roads we need. The distance to health facilities informs the number of health facilities in an area and how many more are needed. As much as they are using the poverty index, they should work with the human development index and its components next time. That will get the direct input needed to estimate allocation to counties. More important is how money is used. Every time we stand here to talk about corruption in counties. In my opinion, the greatest change since devolution is the number of expensive houses you see in the countryside. When you ask, you find that most of these people work in counties. To which I say, “Well, at least something has happened”. We talk about corruption but there is one thing we do not look at. What about systems? Systems help us reduce corruption. Although we cannot eliminate it, we can reduce corruption. We were talking about the financial systems we use in counties just last week. We have the bigger Public Finance Management Act. However, how well are people at the county level trained on procurement systems? Regarding human resource, I will give an example of the health sector to which I am familiar. Of all devolved functions, I think health is the sector with the largest and most complex human resource. That is why we have the issues. On training, we have only one school of government in the country. By now, and because of devolution, one would expect we have many schools of government in various parts to enable county officers get appropriate training. We compare county governments with the national Government that has existed for over 100 years. The number of people who have gathered experience is huge in national Government. County governments have existed The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for informationpurposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor."
},
{
"id": 1583254,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1583254/?format=api",
"text_counter": 212,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Seme, ODM",
"speaker_title": "Hon. (Dr) James Nyikal",
"speaker": null,
"content": "for about 10 years. They need a lot more intensive training, however, much we expect them to gather experience. It is also clear that they are figuring out the 12 counties because they are small. The size of counties also matters. I believe that our counties are too small. The evidence is that they are now coming up with regional blocks. They have realised that they need to be larger to be more productive. How did we get to this number 47 in Naivasha? I know it may be difficult to go back to the eight that were originally proposed. These are issues that we must keep looking at. Regarding raising own revenue, we should put an index in the distribution formula that indicates how much a county has raised and thereafter reward those who are doing well. They should probably get more as an incentive. Otherwise, we want to depend on the results of this formula without raising own revenue. I have said before that we had the Constitution Implementation Commission. It was largely legal but it died because its term was over. We later came up with the Transition Authority and now the Intergovernmental Relations Technical Committee (IGRTC). This House also has a Constitutional Implementation Oversight Committee. I think we should regularly look at their structures and performance. What are the underlying factors if Members of County Assemblies are constantly working hard to impeach governors? What are the factors if counties are not performing? Thereafter, we can review the whole county governance with these facts in mind. The formula they are working on is fairly scientific and difficult but it can give a basis for regular review of how devolution is working. With that, I support. Thank you."
},
{
"id": 1583255,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1583255/?format=api",
"text_counter": 213,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Hon. Peter Kaluma",
"speaker_title": "The Temporary Speaker",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Thank you. Next is the Member for Kitui Central, Hon. (Dr) Makali Mulu."
},
{
"id": 1583256,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1583256/?format=api",
"text_counter": 214,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Kitui Central, WDM",
"speaker_title": "Hon. (Dr) Makali Mulu",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Thank you for this opportunity. I join my colleagues in commenting on this Fourth Generation Revenue Sharing Formula. As I do that and from the word go, I want to say that I would have opposed this formula if I was able to move the numbers. Let us go on record on a number of issues now that we will not be able to move the numbers. Hon. Temporary Speaker, sharing public resources has never been an easy assignment. It actually triggers war and causes serious conflicts in some countries because resources generally determine how areas or regions develop. I have looked at the factors considered in this Fourth Generation Revenue Sharing Formula and the three previous formulas. If you analyse the first to fourth formula, they have dropped some things and onboarded new ones. They have been changing contribution percentages and it has impacted how much each county gets. I must appreciate the current formula for one thing: ensuring that, in future, no county will get less than what they have gotten in the past. That is important. Let me take you back to the history of this country. There was Sessional Paper No.10 of 1965 on African Socialism and its Application to Planning in Kenya . What did that paper do? It emphasised on developing high potential areas in this country; meaning that allocation pushed public resources to areas seen to have high potential. From the word go, resource The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for informationpurposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor."
},
{
"id": 1583257,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1583257/?format=api",
"text_counter": 215,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Kitui Central, WDM",
"speaker_title": "Hon. (Dr) Makali Mulu",
"speaker": null,
"content": "allocation was done keenly. As a result of that, some regions were marginalised and we came up with the Equalisation Fund. It is by design that some parts of this country have remained poor for some time. That is the reason the poverty levels are very high. The reason why we have been pushing for poverty index to be this high in terms of percentage is to help these areas to scale up. The percentage that is allocated to poverty levels has kept on reducing every year. We are now going back to push for population to be the leading factor of consideration. Through Sessional Paper No.10 of 1965, these areas were developed and people migrated from the marginalised areas to high potential areas. The population of these areas became very high. Through the fourth-generation formula, it is like we are going back to the Sessional Paper No.10 of 1965 in terms of planning. When you give a certain population 45 per cent of the available resources, it is unfair to the rest of the country. There are areas with huge geographical size where providing goods and services is a tall order. However, we are now downgrading geographical area and upgrading population. With time, counties with a big geographical area will never develop at the same pace with counties that have high population. For example, South-Eastern, North-Eastern and North Rift parts of this country will always be marginalised because we are, again, pushing resources to areas with high population. If I was to have my way, I would have the percentage pegged on population reduced and the percentage pegged on the geographical area increased. Our Constitution states that resources should be shared in a way that counties can implement their functions. As a country, we have not cost devolved functions fully. About 10 years ago is the last time we attempted to cost devolved function. Things have changed. For example, the price of a unit of electricity today is not the same with how it was in 2013. So, we need to ask ourselves how much money in totality do counties require to be effective in the implementation of their functions so that we can cost all functions of counties and propose an amount that they will require to implement them, for example, Ksh700 billion, and how to share it. In the immediate formula, the third generational formula, issues of health, agriculture and roads development were factored and they have now disappeared. In an area like Garissa, there are no roads. They have paths in the name of roads. At what point will we develop roads in Garissa, Mandera, Kitui and Makueni if we do not factor in the level of development in our sharing formulae? It looks like we are still pushing so hard for resources to be where people are and we will continue being left behind. On corruption, we all talk about it here. How will we address corruption when we exclude fiscal responsibility as a factor in sharing resources? We do not care how people use resources before we give them more resources. We should have a situation where fiscal responsibility becomes an important factor in sharing of resources so that those who take care of public resources are given more resources and those who misdirect resources are given less resources. We will have more people joining the league of those who use public resources well. For now, it does not matter whether one uses public resources well or not. They will still get public resources based on this formula. How I wish we had a way of bringing up such a formula to address the situation. Since we cannot raise the two-thirds majority to change this formula, we will live with it for the next five years. Those who are marginalised will continue being marginalised and those who are developed will continue developing. I submit."
},
{
"id": 1583258,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1583258/?format=api",
"text_counter": 216,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Hon. Peter Kaluma",
"speaker_title": "The Temporary Speaker",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Hon. Yussuf Mohamed. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for informationpurposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor."
},
{
"id": 1583259,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1583259/?format=api",
"text_counter": 217,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Wajir West, ODM",
"speaker_title": "Hon. Yussuf Farah",
"speaker": null,
"content": " Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker for giving me this opportunity to add my voice to the Motion on the Fourth Generation Revenue Sharing Formula. As my colleagues have said, if today we could achieve the two-thirds majority to reject this Motion, we could have done it. Unfortunately, we cannot do it. We are forced to support the Motion. For the record, I want to make my reservations. The Constitution has outlined policies and guidelines on how resources are shared between the two levels of government. However, despite the well formulated guidelines on revenue sharing formula, there has been a delay in agreeing on the amount to be allocated to the two levels of government because of certain interests. The factors used to determine revenue sharing are quite alarming. When one of the factors to be considered for revenue allocation to county governments is population index based on the 2019 Kenya population census, that clearly shows you how we do not care about certain parts of this country. We all know that the 2019 population census was cooked in the Ministry of Interior office by some crooks who pretended to be the officers conducting the census. Some areas have been deliberately marginalised and their population numbers tampered with and reduced by three quarters. The same parameter has been used to allocate resources to counties that have been marginalised for decades. The 2019 census results are in the corridors of justice. The Arid and Semi-Arid Lands (ASALs) counties went to court to challenge the decision of the Kenya National Bureau of Statistics on Kenya population and housing census. That census was set aside. Using that nullified census results as a parameter to allocate resources to certain counties is not acceptable. That will return this country to Sessional Paper No.10 of 1965 that was a deliberate attempt to marginalise specific areas and deny them their rightful resources in this country. The other issue is using geographical size as a determining factor and putting it at 10 per cent. What are we using …"
},
{
"id": 1583260,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1583260/?format=api",
"text_counter": 218,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Baringo, UDA",
"speaker_title": "Hon. Jematiah Sergon",
"speaker": null,
"content": " On a point of order, Hon. Temporary Speaker."
},
{
"id": 1583261,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1583261/?format=api",
"text_counter": 219,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Hon. Peter Kaluma",
"speaker_title": "The Temporary Speaker",
"speaker": null,
"content": " What is your point of order, Hon. Jematiah?"
}
]
}