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{
"id": 973629,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/973629/?format=api",
"text_counter": 177,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Hon. Chairman",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "Hon. Kimunya."
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{
"id": 973630,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/973630/?format=api",
"text_counter": 178,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Kipipiri, JP",
"speaker_title": "Hon. Amos Kimunya",
"speaker": {
"id": 174,
"legal_name": "Amos Muhinga Kimunya",
"slug": "amos-kimunya"
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"content": " Hon. Chairman, I have heard the comments from my colleagues but on this one, I have to agree with the President. You borrow money on the understanding that you are prepared to pay and not to default. So, we must, first of all, never pass laws here that will establish a culture of almost encouraging people to default. That is why you not only give security, but you also give guarantors who are jointly and severally enjoined in the process. Hence, you cannot say that because the person has given a house as security, which is probably matrimonial, and which cannot be realised at the point of default. The bank should continue pursuing the amount due to it until they realise it. The bank should be able to go for the guarantors and even choose the most realisable assets. That is the practice globally. I can see the sense because of the frustration and the reality on the ground as well as the several newspaper pages of auction notices. I can see the pain that the Hon. Member brought this amendment. However, we should look at the bigger picture. Kenya should not be seen as a country that is legislating to encourage people to default on payment of their debts. That is a fundamental principle. Otherwise, we will become a pariah nation. Who will trust that you will soon not be legislating on other things that affect investment? Banks use money that belongs to members of the public to lend to other persons. It is depositors’ money that is being lent. It is not just the bank. John Mbadi, as a customer, deposits money into his bank account. That money is then lent out to his colleagues. If his colleague fails to pay, it is Hon. John Mbadi who will lose his deposit. So, let us not just look at the banks. Let us look at the banks as purely an intermediary forum which take depositors’ money and lend it to borrowers. We must protect both the borrower and the depositor. Hon. Chairman, I could go on and on but for obvious reasons, let us pass this amendment. As a House, let us be careful in future as we legislate on such laws so that we do not end up putting the House into this kind of situation. Thank you, Hon. Chairman."
},
{
"id": 973631,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/973631/?format=api",
"text_counter": 179,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Hon. Chairman",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "Let us hear Hon. Kioni, after whom I will give the Floor to a Member from the other side and that will be it."
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{
"id": 973632,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/973632/?format=api",
"text_counter": 180,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Ndaragwa, JP",
"speaker_title": "Hon. Jeremiah Kioni",
"speaker": {
"id": 49,
"legal_name": "Jeremiah Ngayu Kioni",
"slug": "jeremiah-kioni"
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"content": " Hon. Chairman, I find it difficulty in supporting this proposal from the President for the reason that it does exactly opposite what Hon. Kimunya has said. If you know that once you have borrowed money you will either pay or your other assets become exposed, you will be encouraged to pay more. However, when you know that you can always get your guarantors’ assets, you encourage laziness from the bank. While we cannot… The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposes only. Acertified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor."
},
{
"id": 973633,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/973633/?format=api",
"text_counter": 181,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Hon. Chairman",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "You know what Hon. Kimunya is asking is that, why then do you not create a law that does away with guarantors?"
},
{
"id": 973634,
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"text_counter": 182,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Ndaragwa, JP",
"speaker_title": "Hon. Jeremiah Kioni",
"speaker": {
"id": 49,
"legal_name": "Jeremiah Ngayu Kioni",
"slug": "jeremiah-kioni"
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"content": " He had the opportunity of doing that. The one we have is the one that was done. I think he can do that later. Having said that, I think the other important thing is that the Office of the President will have to be careful not to be seen to be overusing the veto power because if it is over-done, again, it will beat the purpose for which it was put in the Constitution."
},
{
"id": 973635,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/973635/?format=api",
"text_counter": 183,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Hon. Chairman",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "What is it, Leader of the Majority Party? You are the one moving it."
},
{
"id": 973636,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/973636/?format=api",
"text_counter": 184,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Garissa Township, JP",
"speaker_title": "Hon. Aden Duale",
"speaker": {
"id": 15,
"legal_name": "Aden Bare Duale",
"slug": "aden-duale"
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"content": " Hon. Chairman, Hon. Kioni also joined Parliament at the same time with Hon. Millie and Hon. Mbadi. The framers of the Constitution gave him powers from Article 93 to 95. To protect the citizens of this country from a future or current rogue Parliament, the President has been given powers under Article 115 to protect the people. While exercising his powers under the Constitution, he is questioning the powers of the President, who has been elected by the people of Kenya to protect them. Is he in order? Members of Parliament and Hon. Kioni, nobody can force you to be a guarantor. A guarantor is a willing business unless you are Amos Kimunya whose name is guarantor. You know Amos Kimunya’s name is guarantor. My name is guarantor. We do not look for guarantors. However, if you are a guarantor and the loanee defaults, you should be prepared to pay. I have finished my point of order. I am saying you cannot usurp the powers of the President under Article 115 of the Constitution. Those are his powers."
},
{
"id": 973637,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/973637/?format=api",
"text_counter": 185,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Hon. Chairman",
"speaker_title": "",
"speaker": null,
"content": "Now let us have Hon. Kioni. Wind up, please."
},
{
"id": 973638,
"url": "https://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/973638/?format=api",
"text_counter": 186,
"type": "speech",
"speaker_name": "Ndaragwa, JP",
"speaker_title": "Hon. Jeremiah Kioni",
"speaker": {
"id": 49,
"legal_name": "Jeremiah Ngayu Kioni",
"slug": "jeremiah-kioni"
},
"content": " Hon. Chairman, I cannot just wind up. He has taken all the oxygen in the room. I was going to say this. That power that has been given to the President is good, but it is meant to balance. We agree that he is a people’s representative also. But all those who are seated here are also people’s representatives. So, when we pass law, we pass it on behalf of Kenyans. When he makes those interventions, he makes them on behalf of Kenyans. But some balance will be useful. It is important that we do that. I think this would have actually helped the banks. Now they are just lazy. Everybody will put his signature on that piece of paper and without forcing the person who borrowed to pay. I think it was a good amendment but, unfortunately, we are cooked."
}
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