{"count":1608389,"next":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/?format=json&page=137634","previous":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/?format=json&page=137632","results":[{"id":1392741,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1392741/?format=json","text_counter":653,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Rarieda, ODM","speaker_title":"Hon. (Dr) Otiende Amollo","speaker":null,"content":"issue of the National Security Advisor, the removal of the Public Seal from the Office of the Attorney-General, and agreed on the expansion of the Committee on the Assumption of Office. My divergence is on two issues. The first one is the issue of the Chief Administrative Secretaries while the second one is that of the Head of Public Service. This country’s history is clear, if you look at the Bomas Report and the Exit Report of the Committee of Experts. The people of this country wanted a limited Executive in two respects. One is in terms of powers, and the Constitution has endeavoured to do that. The second one is in terms of numbers. They did two things to cure the issue of numbers. They removed the Office of the Assistant Minister and limited the number of Cabinet Secretaries to between 14 and 22 for a good reason. To introduce the Office of the Chief Administrative Secretary is to introduce the Office of the Assistant Minister by a different baptismal name. Therefore, we are seeking to defeat the will of Kenyans as a House and that is unacceptable. Secondly, it amounts to sabotaging the very desire of Kenyans that they expressed for over 20 years, including in a referendum. If you are reconsidering the structures of Parliament or the Executive, you should not just bring a proposal to this House. You should wait and include it in an amendment to the Constitution so that the people can tell you whether they still want a limited Executive or not. That is not the case here. We are now limiting it by legislation. Hon. Temporary Speaker, there is another problem with the introduction of Chief Administrative Secretaries. If you look carefully at the roles of cabinet secretaries and principal secretaries, there is no new role that is being given to the Chief Administrative Secretary. None at all. None that is not already undertaken by those two offices. We are duplicating roles with the danger of giving some roles by legislation to people who have no constitutional roles. I have a big problem with that. There is nothing new. More importantly, and this is why Kenyans did not want a bloated Government; is that the cost of maintaining the Public Service, be it the Judiciary, the Legislature or the Executive, is far too high. Kenyans would even reduce the size of this House if they had their way. Instead of reducing the number of people in Government, we are working towards increments, and not just an increment of a defined number of 22 people but an increment, as Hon. Murugara has said, of an undefined number that the President can decide at his whim. This comes at a time when the cost of living is high, and on a day that the medical personnel in this country have gone on strike because medical interns cannot be hired. The basic cost of hiring one intern is Ksh42,370. The cost of hiring one Chief Administrative Secretary, going by the last batch, is a basic salary of Ksh800,000 plus benefits, which adds up to Ksh2 million. Hiring one Chief Administrative Secretary is equivalent to hiring 47 medical interns. If we get 50 CASs, as was prescribed last time, we would be talking of 2,350 interns. If we get 100 CASs, as the Committee is recommending, just multiply the number of interns by the same figure. We do not have money to pay interns but we have money to create offices and pay their occupants. I have a big problem with that. Lastly on this point, the creation of this office was declared unconstitutional and remains so. It was not for want of legislation. There are two cases that speak to this issue very clearly. First, there are the Nairobi High Court Constitutional Petitions No.33 and No.42 of 2018, in which Justice Mrima clearly declares in paragraph 310(b) of his judgment that the court declares the Office of the Chief Administrative Secretary unconstitutional. This is not about numbers or legislation. This is on the reading of the Constitution. The other cases are Petitions E080, E084 and E150 of 2023, being considered by three judges – Justice Ong’udi, Justice Kimondo and Justice Visram. In the decision, the majority again declared the Office of the Chief Administrative Secretary unconstitutional in paragraph 301, with one dissent. The dissent is by Justice Ong’udi. She dissents by stating in paragraph 38 of her dissent that she finds that the creation of an additional 27 posts is unconstitutional. On the contrary, the establishment of 23 posts is constitutional. We are going even further than The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor"},{"id":1392742,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1392742/?format=json","text_counter":654,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Rarieda, ODM","speaker_title":"Hon. (Dr) Otiende Amollo","speaker":null,"content":"the dissent. We are not only creating 23 posts so that we find a way of fitting in Justice Ong’udi’s decision, but we are going beyond 50 posts. If it was unconstitutional then, it is even worse now. Hon. Temporary Speaker, the position of the Head of the Public Service has a long history. If you look at the Report of the Committee of Experts and the Bomas Report, we started with the very powerful Office of the Chief Secretary. Before the promulgation of the Constitution of Kenya, 2010, people knew who the Chief Secretary was even before the ministers. This is because the position was very powerful. It was necessary to divorce that office, which came with the presidency, from the public service. It was determined that routine public officers should be headed by the PSC. This is because they are permanent employees who do not need to play politics. On the other hand, there are those who come into office with the elected President and the Executive. They are not employed on permanent basis. Their offices are transitional. That is why we introduced the Office of the Secretary to the Cabinet. It was to ensure that the public service is divorced from the transitional office of the President. The Constitution clearly defines the roles of the Secretary to the Cabinet. Introducing the Head of Public Service in the Bill conflates the two offices suddenly again. It removes the permanent control of public servants from the PSC and purports to put it under the transitional clause of the Head of Public Service. This does not address the role of the Secretary to the Cabinet. All these roles, which are described here, are supposed to be roles of the Secretary to the Cabinet. This transfers the roles of the Commission to an individual. It also does something worse. It removes the clear boundaries that are in the Constitution. As Hon. Chairman has said, it is possible that the Committee has attempted to define it within the Executive. However, it still remains Head of Public Service. He will head the public servants who are on permanent basis within the Office of the President. Lastly, as Hon. Chairman of the Departmental Committee on Administration and Internal Affairs has said, there was a court case which challenged the legality of that office. The court stated that there is nothing wrong with the President having a head of public service. He had him without legislation. Why are we creating it? Why are we creating a problem where there is none? I oppose the bits on the Head of Public Service and Chief Administrative Secretary."},{"id":1392743,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1392743/?format=json","text_counter":655,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"The Temporary Speaker","speaker_title":"","speaker":null,"content":"(Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai): Member for Marakwet West, Hon. Timothy Toroitich."},{"id":1392744,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1392744/?format=json","text_counter":656,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Marakwet West, Independent","speaker_title":"Hon. Timothy Kipchumba","speaker":null,"content":" Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker, for granting me an opportunity to support this Bill. I will limit myself to the amendment in respect of the Chief Administrative Secretaries. The Departmental Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs has responded to the Court of Appeal’s decision which declared that post unconstitutional. We have created a proper legal and institutional framework for the creation of the Office of Chief Administrative Secretaries. When they were appointed, the issue was the legal framework under which they would serve. I have read the provisions that are proposed by the Committee. This office is now properly anchored in law. Clause 12A (3) of the Bill provides that the President shall, on the recommendation of Public Service Commission and approval of the National Assembly, appoint Chief Administrative Secretaries. This House will have a say on their appointment. There was a ruling by Hon. Speaker that there was no legal provision requiring this House to approve their nomination. For the first time, this House will vet Chief Administrative Secretary nominees to determine their eligibility to serve this country. That is a plus."},{"id":1392745,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1392745/?format=json","text_counter":657,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Kibwezi West, MCCP","speaker_title":"Hon. Mwengi Mutuse","speaker":null,"content":" On a point of information, Hon. Temporary Speaker. The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor"},{"id":1392746,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1392746/?format=json","text_counter":658,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"The Temporary Speaker","speaker_title":"","speaker":null,"content":"(Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai): What is out of order, Hon. Mutuse?"},{"id":1392747,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1392747/?format=json","text_counter":659,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Kibwezi West, MCCP","speaker_title":"Hon. Mwengi Mutuse","speaker":null,"content":" I would like to inform my learned colleague, Member for Marakwet West."},{"id":1392748,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1392748/?format=json","text_counter":660,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"The Temporary Speaker","speaker_title":"","speaker":null,"content":"(Hon. (Dr) Rachael Nyamai): Would you like to be informed, Hon. Timothy Kipchumba?"},{"id":1392749,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1392749/?format=json","text_counter":661,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Marakwet West, Independent","speaker_title":"Hon. Timothy Kipchumba","speaker":null,"content":" Yes, I accept to be guided."},{"id":1392750,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1392750/?format=json","text_counter":662,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Kibwezi West, MCCP","speaker_title":"Hon. Mwengi Mutuse","speaker":null,"content":" The Bill does not propose vetting of Chief Administrative Secretaries by the National Assembly. It is the Head of Public Service who will be subject to parliamentary approval."}]}