{"count":1608389,"next":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/?format=json&page=138622","previous":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/?format=json&page=138620","results":[{"id":1402621,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1402621/?format=json","text_counter":120,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. Maanzo","speaker_title":"","speaker":{"id":13589,"legal_name":"Maanzo Daniel Kitonga","slug":"maanzo-daniel-kitonga"},"content":"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I congratulate Sen. Cherarkey for coming up with this thought and having drafted the Bill very professionally. If you look at the other thresholds in all the other laws affecting any other member, it is two-thirds. If it is the removal of the President, Speaker or a Cabinet Secretary, the threshold is two-thirds. However, when it comes to the CECM, it is one- third. This means, even an opposition party in the county can remove a CECM whom they do not like. It also means that the majority party in the county can do away with a CECM in just one sitting. Therefore, there is a need to balance or equalize this. The standard the world over is two-thirds and, therefore, this is in line with the world practice and gives protection to any person who gets appointed to a position and then witch-hunt removes them from their position. Impeachment is a political process. The moment politics changes it becomes very easy to impeach officers or force them out of office, while they had been guaranteed of a job or to be able to earn a living. When it also comes to the other procedures like when you want to raise signatures to remove a Member of Parliament, the law is not clear what will happen to a Senator. Unfortunately, currently we do not have the Independent Electoral and Boundaries Commission (IEBC), which would have processed that. However, the threshold is high. It is not as low as a third. Therefore, this is a law which we should pass even without an amendment. It is very well drafted and it is good for the nation, so that we can safeguard the rights of the other people, and especially employment rights and safeguard them against political witch-hunt. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I support."},{"id":1402622,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1402622/?format=json","text_counter":121,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. Cheruiyot","speaker_title":"The Senate Majority Leader","speaker":{"id":13165,"legal_name":"Aaron Kipkirui Cheruiyot","slug":"aaron-cheruiyot"},"content":" Mr. Speaker, Sir, I did not know that Sen. Maanzo once in a while can have so little to say on a particular topic. I know him to be a man of many opinions. However, today is one such rare occasion. This is a straightforward Bill, but I have a problem with it. I have a problem with how we are amending the County Governments Act. In my life here in the Senate over the years, I have seen no less than maybe 10 or 12 amendments to the County Governments Act. Mr. Speaker, Sir, in a practical environment, the application of its contents as an Act of Parliament is jeopardised by continuous amendment. The only other Bill that is amended as many times is the Public Finance Management Act. I agree with Sen. Cherarkey that if you make the threshold too low, yet the consequences are too severe, then we are not delivering justice. Sen. Thang’wa nearly missed an opportunity to serve the people of Kiambu as their Senator on account of an impeachment. I do not know what he had done or whether he was guilty or otherwise, but knowing him as a person, chances are that it must have been politics at play. However, if that decision had been left to stand, then he would never have seen the four walls of Parliament. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."},{"id":1402623,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1402623/?format=json","text_counter":122,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. Cheruiyot","speaker_title":"The Senate Majority Leader","speaker":{"id":13165,"legal_name":"Aaron Kipkirui Cheruiyot","slug":"aaron-cheruiyot"},"content":"An impeachment process is not an easy thing. Unfortunately, to those whom that power is given, they do not treat it with the seriousness it deserves. An impeachment process at the county assemblies is done the same way it is done in this House. I have seen more than 10 impeachments in this House. The things you do here as Senators is what our Members of County Assemblies (MCAs) do. I know Members know what I mean when I say ‘the things you do.’ Imagine a situation where the only thing that saves the day is that you need at least half of the Members of this House for an impeachment process to go through. The threshold was extremely low in this particular instance. Therefore, I agree with the thinking to raise the threshold, so that it is a bit higher. On flimsy grounds, somebody cannot just be removed as a County Executive Committee Member (CECM), so that people are able to carry out their duties. Mr. Speaker, Sir, you can imagine with the diversity of our counties, if a CECM was to fall out with the MCAs from a particular sub-county, on account of a decision that has been taken in the greater interest of the entire county. What will happen is that the particular CECM, on account of petty little politics, can lose their job, yet up to now, we do not have sufficient jurisprudence on what happens when somebody is impeached. In fact, this afternoon, I met the former Governor Sonko, one of the victims of an impeachment process of this House. During his impeachment, it was clearly demonstrated to us in this House that the threshold was not achieved at the County Assembly of Nairobi City County, yet like I have explained earlier, there are many things that happen in an impeachment exercise. The Senator for Makueni County knows this because he appeared here as advocate for Governor Sonko in that impeachment hearing. He knows what happened. I am not sure how Sen. Wambua voted in that one. Impeachments have become political processes, yet they have very serious legal and constitutional consequences. We cannot afford to allow that anybody--- I suggest that we exercise our mind better even in the impeachment process of the Senate. The only unfortunate thing is that it is a constitutional threshold, because the process does not matter. What matters is at the end when they eventually call the Senators to vote. For example, Sen. Godfrey Osotsi, Senator for Vihiga is called upon to vote and he rises and say he votes ‘yes’ or ‘no’. At the end of the day, the process that has gone through does not matter. He can also choose to abstain, just the way other Senators do because of many other reasons. Therefore, I like the fact that we are raising the threshold. By the time two-thirds of the members of an assembly are agreeing and concurring that something is wrong with you, definitely something is the matter. However, a third was too low a threshold. Therefore, I urge colleagues that we support this Bill. It is a good thought, but I have expressed concern. Sen. Abbas is in the House. As the Chairperson for the Standing Committee on Devolution and Intergovernmental Relations, there is something you must do for us. These piecemeal amendments of the County Government's Act are not good. I say so because after the passage and assent of this Bill in both Houses of Parliament, you publish a new County Governments Act. I know there are other draft legislative proposals to further amend the County The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."},{"id":1402624,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1402624/?format=json","text_counter":123,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. Cheruiyot","speaker_title":"The Senate Majority Leader","speaker":{"id":13165,"legal_name":"Aaron Kipkirui Cheruiyot","slug":"aaron-cheruiyot"},"content":"Governments Act. It is better if Sen. Abbas's Committee goes through the entire breadth of that law. With the experience that this House has, where we have Senators who are former governors, governors who are former Senators and Senators who were MCAs and speakers, we do not lack the experience that is needed to understand the instruments and the operations of devolution in this country at this moment. This will enable us to have a more comprehensive cleanup of that law. Remember, when that law was being drafted, nobody had practiced devolution in Kenya. However, 12 years down the line, we have learnt what can work and what cannot. As the Senate Majority Leader, I have Bills that are amending the County Governments Act, establishing the various leadership offices in our assemblies. This is part of the work that we did at the National Dialogue Committee (NADCO). I would not mind donating that contribution and legislation to Sen. Abbas's Committee if they promise to be diligent and conclude on that exercise. There are so many other suggestions that we have been given, including entrenchment of various offices in the county assembly, so that you have a more comprehensive legislation. Once the Bill is done, then it will settle devolution for another maybe four or five years before you amend the County Governments Act. I, therefore, pass the challenge to Sen. Abbas and his Committee, because the County Governments Act is the Bible of devolution. Piecemeal amendments to it is not doing justice to those who practice using this law. Otherwise, I appreciate the industry of Sen. Cherarkey in the proposal of various legislations before the House. I do not agree with him on many other things, especially what he is trying to do with Bunge Tower. I am one of those who contributed significantly in that house being there. I served as a Commissioner for five years. We did the best that we could under very difficult circumstances. When we found Bunge Tower, there was nothing other than a junkyard. By the time I left the Commission, it was standing tall on the skylines of Nairobi. In fact, what Sen. Kinyua and Sen. Korir have done, is apply paint and open the building. The bulk of the work was done by the previous Commission. I do not know why Sen. Cherarkey all of a sudden--- I know he loves his office at the Kenyatta International Conventional Centre (KICC) for reasons that I cannot discuss on the camera. Why can he not remain in KICC without disparaging our very ultra modern building of the Bunge Tower? That building has state-of-the-art facilities and modern committee rooms. I know they have not concluded many of the things that need to be done there, but that building is built well. The offices may not be as large as Members would have wanted. I do not know if that is still the plan because Sen. Kinyua and Sen. Korir are not there. Initially, we were squeezing Members into those offices and they have been partitioned in a way that can easily be moved, to provide space to renovate the current Continental House, so that when we have sufficient space in both Continental House and Bunge Tower, Members can have slightly larger offices and not what it is. That was the plan by the time I was in the Commission. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."},{"id":1402625,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1402625/?format=json","text_counter":124,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. Cheruiyot","speaker_title":"The Senate Majority Leader","speaker":{"id":13165,"legal_name":"Aaron Kipkirui Cheruiyot","slug":"aaron-cheruiyot"},"content":"Parliament spends close to Kshs400 million each year paying for offices for Members, which is not fair to taxpayers. We had to conclude that building, so that we knock off that budget. The Kshs400 million can serve other pressing needs in the country. I agree with the decision of the Parliamentary Service Commission (PSC) to conclude Bunge Tower. I will be there tomorrow, at 8.00 a.m., to see my work because I participated in the coming together of that building. There are many things. I know they have a state-of-the-art gym. Sen. Cherarkey, you can run away from not having an office in Bunge Tower, but you must use the gym on that particular floor because it is extremely healthy to all of us. Mr. Speaker, Sir, with those many remarks, I beg to support and urge colleagues to support this legislative proposal by Sen. Cherarkey."},{"id":1402626,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1402626/?format=json","text_counter":125,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Hon. Kingi","speaker_title":"The Speaker","speaker":null,"content":" Sen. Osotsi, you may have the Floor."},{"id":1402627,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1402627/?format=json","text_counter":126,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. Osotsi","speaker_title":"","speaker":{"id":13588,"legal_name":"Osotsi Godfrey Otieno","slug":"osotsi-godfrey-otieno"},"content":"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for this opportunity to contribute to this important Bill; the County Governments (Amendment) Bill, 2023, by Sen. Cherarkey. The Bill seeks to amend the current County Governments Act to enhance the threshold of removal of a County Executive Committee Member (CECM) from one-third to two-thirds of Members of the County Assembly (MCAs). Mr. Speaker, Sir, just like my colleagues have said, this is a straightforward Bill. It is long overdue. I think this Bill is popular among the Members because we have been having challenges in our counties. The CECMs have not been able to carry out their duties confidently and effectively because they are always under threat of being removed from their positions through impeachment by MCAs. With enhancement of the threshold, this will help them to focus on their jobs and deliver to the people in those counties. So, this Bill is timely."},{"id":1402628,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1402628/?format=json","text_counter":127,"type":"scene","speaker_name":"","speaker_title":"","speaker":null,"content":"[The Speaker (Hon. Kingi) left the Chair]"},{"id":1402629,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1402629/?format=json","text_counter":128,"type":"scene","speaker_name":"","speaker_title":"","speaker":null,"content":"[The Temporary Speaker (Sen. Wakili Sigei) in the Chair]"},{"id":1402630,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1402630/?format=json","text_counter":129,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. Osotsi","speaker_title":"","speaker":{"id":13588,"legal_name":"Osotsi Godfrey Otieno","slug":"osotsi-godfrey-otieno"},"content":"Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I also support the suggestion by the Senate Majority Leader. I think it is long overdue for us to also develop an impeachment law on removal of governors because there are gaps. We should also tighten the process. We have cases where some of the documents that are brought to us for impeachment do not meet the threshold and we have rejected those impeachments. It is important for us to have a law that governs the whole process, not just for the governors, but also CECMs and people who work below them. Impeachment is good, but it is also bad. It is a good thing because it keeps leaders in check. It is bad because it can also be misused. Sometimes we wonder why we have so many impeachment Motions coming against governors. However, since devolution started, we have not had any single Cabinet Secretary or President who has been removed from office through impeachment. We should ask ourselves why. Some of those people who have been impeached by this House have committed lesser crimes than some people in the Executive, such as Cabinet Secretaries. However, they are let off the hook. We need to be fair to every public servant, so that when we The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."}]}