{"count":1608389,"next":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/?format=json&page=144422","previous":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/?format=json&page=144420","results":[{"id":1462402,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1462402/?format=json","text_counter":250,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. Tobiko","speaker_title":"","speaker":null,"content":"The CoG also exists of necessity and has become a forum for counties to challenge each other to perform better and to pull their socks. They have addressed situations such as in Meru County by even trying to go to see what ails the county. These bodies do exist of necessity and must be enabled by law, so that they do not exist in a vacuum or outside the law. This law is made to facilitate that. The CAF has also given voice to the County Assemblies. The Speakers’ Forum, the CAF and the Society of Clerks at the Table (SOCCAT), are bodies such as all the other professional bodies we see in this country for example, of accountants and engineers. These bodies have operated to ensure standards and ethics are met. The same thing is what these bodies are doing in the devolved arena. Madam Temporary Speaker, I support what has been proposed, that we anchor these bodies in law and continue to protect and push for devolution. These bodies are not just there as Sen. Olekina would want us to believe. That it is just some club of men and women who are meeting for the sake of meeting. They are meeting to make devolution work. It is important that we support this. I support the creation and facilitation of the Agency. I support that the Council of Governors (COG) be facilitated from the Exchequer. Counties should not be struggling to pay a subscription fee and try to anchor the COG somewhere. It looks like they are stealing money from the county executives or devolved functions to be able to support the COG. The COG is an important body, so, it should actually be financed from the Exchequer. So is the County Assemblies Forum (CAF). We need these bodies in order to have harmony, standardizations and a basis for devolution to work. I thank you."},{"id":1462403,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1462403/?format=json","text_counter":251,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. Veronica Maina","speaker_title":"The Temporary Speaker","speaker":null,"content":" Thank you, Sen. Tobiko. Sen. M. Kajwang’, proceed."},{"id":1462404,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1462404/?format=json","text_counter":252,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. M. Kajwang’","speaker_title":"","speaker":{"id":13162,"legal_name":"Moses Otieno Kajwang'","slug":"moses-otieno-kajwang"},"content":"Madam Temporary Speaker, I rise to support the Bill that has been sponsored by the Senate Majority Leader. In the last Parliament, I had the privilege of serving as the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Devolution and Intergovernmental Relations. These matters came before my chair, and, indeed, we brought in a legislative proposal before this House. However, it was too close to the elections, about a month or two to the elections. At that point in time, the Intergovernmental Relations Technical Committee (IGRTC), which we want to rename as the Intergovernmental Relations Agency, wanted to be a commission. We thought that that was a bit self-serving and selfish. They argued that they should be established like a constitutional commission, like the other constitutional commissions in Article 250. That sounded rather ambitious. Madam Temporary Speaker, I want to speak to the spirit of this Bill rather than the letter, as my senior, the Senator for Kakamega County, has done. He has spoken elaborately to the letter. Let me talk about the spirit. Intergovernmental relations is a constitutional provision. If you look at Articles 185, 186, 187 of the Constitution going onwards, it requires that the two levels of Government to have formal mechanisms for consultation and working together."},{"id":1462405,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1462405/?format=json","text_counter":253,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. M. Kajwang’","speaker_title":"","speaker":{"id":13162,"legal_name":"Moses Otieno Kajwang'","slug":"moses-otieno-kajwang"},"content":"Devolution is not just about counties, because sometimes we think that when you talk devolution, it is just about counties. Devolution is a balance of power between the subsidiary units and the national Government unit. When you are talking about devolution, you cannot talk about counties at the expense of the national Government. That is the reason why there was a need to have this coordinating mechanism, which was given effect by the Intergovernmental Relations Act. In the last Parliament, I looked at the Intergovernmental Relations Act. It is an Act of Parliament that needs further amendments beyond what we are doing today. I will give you an example of the unprecedented transfer of functions that happened in Nairobi City County. Transfer of functions should be guided by Article 189 and given further effect in the Intergovernmental Relations Act. We realised that there were a lot of gaps in the Intergovernmental Relations Act. That is why the Nairobi Metropolitan Service (NMS) was not able to be scrutinised properly. That is why the Nairobi City County Assembly was not able to provide oversight and be involved in allocation of budgets to the NMS in the manner that the Constitution expects of devolved services. I encourage the Standing Committee on Devolution and Intergovernmental Relations to look at the legacy report that we left and bring further amendments to this Act to give greater effect on transfer of functions. However, I congratulate the Senate Majority Leader because he has picked another element in that Act that has been a bit hazy. The IGRTC was supposed to be the secretariat to the summit. It was also supposed to be the secretariat to the COG However, because the governors were better organised, and the inaugural Chief Executive Officer (CEO) of the COG was a lady who is now a judge, she did a great job in establishing the COG to an extent where the COG was almost in competition with the Senate. I recall in the 11th and 12th Parliament, the Chairs of the COG would make pronouncements, which many at times would be at variance with the Senate, and yet the Senate is a constitutional institution that is supposed to represent and defend the interests of counties and their governments. It got so bad that even the chairs of the COG, were unwilling to subject themselves to scrutiny at the Senate. When Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale was the chair of the Public Accounts Committee, the then governor of Kakamega County, who was the Chair of the Council of Governors, refused to appear before the Senate. The then governor of Bomet County, who at some point served as a Chair of the COG, Governor Isaac Ruto, refused to come to the Senate. They used public resources to take the Senate to court. As we provide a legal framework recognition for the COG, I want the Committee that will be scrutinising this Bill to put this question to the COG. That out of their legal expenditure, what percentage has been litigation against the Senate? It forms the bulk of their legal expenses. It is so ridiculous that at some point, governors were required by the COG to make a contribution for them to file a case against a report that was adopted by this House. I was the Chair who tabled that report in this House. It was called the Fiduciary Risks Report. We had summarised the emerging crosscutting audit issues that the Auditor General has raised over the years."},{"id":1462406,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1462406/?format=json","text_counter":254,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. M. Kajwang’","speaker_title":"","speaker":{"id":13162,"legal_name":"Moses Otieno Kajwang'","slug":"moses-otieno-kajwang"},"content":"The Auditor General generates a lot of reports, but many of them can be summarised into probably 20 issues. We brought the first Fiduciary Risks Report to this House, and amongst the recommendations that were adopted by the House was, all contributions that were made to the COG were nugatory, illegal, and, therefore, the CEOs should be surcharged for that contribution. What did the Council of Governors do? They set up a fund to take the Senate to court. I am glad that along the way they found that it was a futile move and stopped that pursuit, even though they did not refund the counties the money that had been put in that fund. The Senate cannot be struggling to go into mediation to propose Kshs400 billion and consider whether we should reduce allocations to county governments or not, only for the county governments to use the resources coming from the Senate for litigation against the Senate on matters that are neither here nor there, like whether governors should appear before the Senate or not. That notwithstanding, I still feel that we need to decouple the Intergovernmental Relations Agency and the COG. Ideally, the powerful institution ought to have been the Intergovernmental Relations Agency. At our last meeting with that entity when in Eldoret with the Liaison Committee, I put it to the Chair of the IGRTC that they have been subdued and outshone by the COG. Indeed, if you look at the strict interpretation of the Intergovernmental Relations Act, they should have been the ones providing secretariat and administrative support to the COG. However, we are where we are. I agree with the spirit that the IGRTC should be independent, separate and have clear terms of reference. Whether we name it Intergovernmental Relations Agency or Intergovernmental Relations Technical Committee or Intergovernmental Relations Commission arose by any other name, smells just as good. The nomenclature is neither here nor there. What is important is that they need to have clearly delineated functions that will not overlap with those of the COG. I support that you need to allow the governors to organise themselves. The COG is supposed to be funded from the consolidated fund. That has been our beef in the County Public Accounts Committee (CPAC). When we say that contributions to COG by county governments is irregular, it is based in law, because the law says that their expenses shall be drawn from the Consolidated Fund. The audit of those expenses---"},{"id":1462407,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1462407/?format=json","text_counter":255,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. Olekina","speaker_title":"","speaker":{"id":407,"legal_name":"Ledama Olekina","slug":"ledama-olekina"},"content":"On a point of order, Madam Temporary Speaker."},{"id":1462408,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1462408/?format=json","text_counter":256,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. Veronica Maina","speaker_title":"The Temporary Speaker","speaker":null,"content":" Sen. Olekina, what is your point of order?"},{"id":1462409,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1462409/?format=json","text_counter":257,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. Olekina","speaker_title":"","speaker":{"id":407,"legal_name":"Ledama Olekina","slug":"ledama-olekina"},"content":"Madam Temporary Speaker, I hate to interrupt my good brother, the distinguished Senator for Homa Bay County. I followed his submissions and wanted clarity on a couple of issues. Madam Temporary Speaker, the first issue is that the distinguished Senator said that the first CEO of the COG, who is now a Judge in the Court of Appeal was smart, did a good job and outsmarted the IGRTC by setting up the COG secretariat. Is the Senator in order, knowing clearly that Section 13 of the Act specifically sets the IGRTC as the secretariat of the COG? Is he saying to commit an illegality is right? It is just an issue of statement of facts."},{"id":1462410,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1462410/?format=json","text_counter":258,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. Olekina","speaker_title":"","speaker":{"id":407,"legal_name":"Ledama Olekina","slug":"ledama-olekina"},"content":"The second issue I want some clarity on from the distinguished Senator---"},{"id":1462411,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1462411/?format=json","text_counter":259,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. Veronica Maina","speaker_title":"The Temporary Speaker","speaker":null,"content":" Sen. Ledama before you proceed, which Standing Order are you relying on?"}]}