{"count":1608389,"next":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/?format=json&page=147875","previous":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/?format=json&page=147873","results":[{"id":1496932,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1496932/?format=json","text_counter":154,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. Kavindu Muthama","speaker_title":"","speaker":{"id":13733,"legal_name":"Agnes Kavindu Muthama","slug":"agnes-kavindu-muthama"},"content":"build mosques for them. Pastors as well depend on their congregations and well- wishers to build churches. Let me detach myself completely from this. The Bible tells me that you can never touch the apple of the eye of God. If we touch the church, we will be fighting with God. I am sure there is no one particular man or kingdom that can fight with God. Since we build churches through fundraising, I will say no to this Bill, unless we allocate funds for churches to do their developments. If the Government allocates funds for churches, then we can talk about such a Bill, but not at this time. Fundraising in this country should not be stopped. If there are people who misuse the idea of fundraising to go and clean or give out a lot of money, why can the Ethics and Anti-Corruption Commission (EACC) not follow them to know where they are getting it from? We also have the Kenya Revenue Authority (KRA). They should establish whether those people pay taxes. Why punish people who should gain from harambees or fundraisers instead of people who take such money to churches and people who need it? We have seen people giving out money, like Kshs20 million, during a church harambee. They do not just do that to one or two but different churches in one day, and they give huge amounts of money. Such people should be followed by the EACC, so that they say where they are getting that kind of money from. We know their salaries and capabilities, but where are they getting the money? If there is any Bill that we should be discussing today, it should be about how to end corruption in this country, but not how to end harambees. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I oppose this Bill. I thank you."},{"id":1496933,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1496933/?format=json","text_counter":155,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. Wakili Sigei","speaker_title":"The Temporary Speaker","speaker":null,"content":" Sen. (Dr.) Oburu, you have the Floor."},{"id":1496934,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1496934/?format=json","text_counter":156,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. (Dr.) Oburu","speaker_title":"","speaker":{"id":194,"legal_name":"Oburu Ngona Odinga","slug":"oburu-odinga"},"content":"Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I stand to support this Bill not for anything else. The spirit of harambee was noble. The idea of harambee came up as a result of a long struggle of our people to gain Independence. During those days, the colonial authorities tried as much as possible to divide our people and segment them into regions and tribes, so that they could continue exploiting them. Some people foresaw this and thought of a spirit that could unite our people in the struggle for Independence. There was a clarion call. It was started by an old man who used to shout very loudly in political rallies in Kisumu. He was called Omollo Ong’iro. He used to say: “ Harambee! Harambee! Tuvute pamoja! Tuvute pamoja!” That is when the late Mzee Kenyatta saw him when he went to a rally in Kisumu. He liked the spirit and made it political. When we became independent, you can see this House - the first building that was put up by the Government was called Harambee House. That street is now called Harambee Avenue. That was a good spirit that came from a noble idea. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."},{"id":1496935,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1496935/?format=json","text_counter":157,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. (Dr.) Oburu","speaker_title":"","speaker":{"id":194,"legal_name":"Oburu Ngona Odinga","slug":"oburu-odinga"},"content":"At Independence, people spoke of three enemies of the people of Kenya. They were poverty, illiteracy and disease. The Independent Government endeavoured to eliminate these enemies in the spirit of harambee because poverty levels in our country were very high. Over the period, more than 60 or 70 years now, we have not been able to deal with these enemies of our people effectively. Poverty, disease, and illiteracy still persist because we still have problems even in our education sector. That is the reason people are passionate about harambees. We are defending harambees because successive governments have been unable to eliminate, eradicate or reduce substantially these enemies of our people. These are disease, illiteracy, and poverty. If you are a representative of people and go home over the weekend, people come to see you because they have medical problems or are unable to pay school fees for their children. Some of them cannot even provide food for their families. That is a big shame to our country! Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, our people remain poor, but a few people have managed to become wealthy such that they can even expose it everywhere. They throw money everywhere and fly in choppers because we are not strictly implementing our laws. I like this Constitution of 2010 because it protects the rights of people. Those rights cannot be fulfilled if we are not serious about managing our resources properly. There are rights in our Constitution such as; the right to education, the right to life, the right to decent living and decent housing and so on and so forth. We have Chapter Six of the Constitution which deals with leadership and integrity because corruption is normally done by the leadership of the country. The leadership of the country is the one that exposes excessive opulence in public. Therefore, public anger grows slowly until it reaches a point of explosion. That is what you people saw when we had the Gen Z protests. The reason I support this Bill is because the way harambees have been managed is not right. Harambees have even been harmful to our people. It is not right even for our own people. These harambees have been harmful to our people. When I was a Member of Parliament (MP) and managing the National Government Constituency Development Fund (NG-CDF), I went to schools and asked the principals of the schools what they would he prefer between NG-CDF and harambees? Any principal will tell you that they prefer harambees because the money is not audited. It is loose money which he can use for any purpose he likes. Without regulating it, our people will continue to see big monies being raised in those institutions, and yet the result on the ground is almost zero. I can give you an example of an instance when I went to my old school where I schooled. I went there to do a harambee to build for them a dormitory. I found the students congested in the dormitories and I wanted to build a dormitory for them. I called my friends, including Governor Orengo and many others and The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."},{"id":1496936,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1496936/?format=json","text_counter":158,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. (Dr.) Oburu","speaker_title":"","speaker":{"id":194,"legal_name":"Oburu Ngona Odinga","slug":"oburu-odinga"},"content":"we flew there. Some of them came in choppers; the ones we are talking about. We raised millions of moneys and deposited there. We thought we would continue to be raise money until we complete the project. Two years later, I was told there is nothing on the ground. When I asked about it, I was told that the principal of the school who was there when I was raising money had already retired and, therefore, there was nobody to account for the money. I also had an occasion where we raised money through NG-CDF for a project of an ablution block. I went with officers from the Education Office, the County Council and from my office. The teacher was so embarrassed to see us. He was showing us the same project that a harambee had been done, where NG- CDF had paid money and the national Government had paid money through the Ministry of Education. It was very unfortunate because I carried all these officers with me. When we were there, the education officer was asking Mwalimu that he thought that was done by their money. The county council officer was also saying that it was done by money from Local Authorities Transfer Fund (LATF). I was also saying that it was done by a harambee and NG-CDF. There is so much corruption, particularly on harambees. The harambees need to be regulated and audited, including public institutions. We do not have to throw money there because it is good for our people. It is not helping our people. It is very easy to mismanage that kind of money without regulation. That is why I support this. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, there is another aspect why we need to regulate these harambees. Some public officer who are supposed to offer free service to the people use harambees to get money from the public. For example, when you go to a chief for a burial permit for your dead and your bereaved, they are supposed to give you the permit for free. However, you will find that he has a harambee book for his home church and when you give him your case for either a land case or a dispute, he produces that and says, “Mheshimiwa, I also have a small harambee for my church. Can you please give me something small for this harambee?” You will not give voluntarily, but because you need him to give you the service, which he is supposed to be giving free. Therefore, public officers including us, must be regulated. I support the spirit that public officers should not be allowed to be guests of honour in harambees. They should go to harambees and contribute their own money. They should not go to harambees and say, “that is contribution from my friends and I.” Who are your friends? We do not know how you got those friends. Why not ask your friends to also contribute directly to those harambee? Why are you coming there to say, “My friends and I?” Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I do not like this idea that elected leaders are the source of money. That they are the ones with money and whenever you go to pray in a church, a small harambee will be created for you. Public officers should be banned from being guests of honour in harambees, but they can participate in harambees. Harambees should not be banned, but regulated. When public officers The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."},{"id":1496937,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1496937/?format=json","text_counter":159,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. (Dr.) Oburu","speaker_title":"","speaker":{"id":194,"legal_name":"Oburu Ngona Odinga","slug":"oburu-odinga"},"content":"are made the guests of honour, they come with huge sacks of money that they have been given by their friends. Let them come to harambees and contribute their own money. This is something practical. When I was an Assistant Minister for Finance in the late His Excellency Mwai Kibaki regime, we were not allowed to be guests of honour, but were allowed to do harambees. We could go to harambees. You can participate in the organisation, but not necessarily have to be the guest of honour. Let other people be guests of honour. Let your competitor be the guest of honour; it does not matter. He can give so much money, but it does not mean that he is going to be elected. When nearing elections, those harambees can be stopped for some months. However, there should be restriction in making public officers guests of honour and bringing monies from their friends. They should bring their own contributions to those harambees. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I do not want to say much more on this. I support that harambees should be there, but there should not be licensing for them. I do not like the idea of permits. I do not like the idea of the CECM at the county level or the Cabinet Secretary at the national level issuing permits. However, we should have a law which regulates public officers, so that they can be taken to court for doing what they are not supposed to do. This question of permits is taking us back to bureaucracy. It is creating some monsters and taking us back to the days we had left a long time ago. The permit issue made the District Commissioners (DCs) so powerful that we had to line up in their offices for licensing. They would sometimes refuse to give you a licence and give someone else just because he does not like you. Sometimes, they would refuse to give you the permit because he is supporting someone else and not you in an election, and think if you do a harambee, you were going to have some advantage over the opponent whom he supports. I do not like this issue of creating that kind of monsters. However, I support the Bill. I hope that when it comes to the Third Reading or the Committee of the Whole, we are going to tax it and make necessary amendments. I thank you."},{"id":1496938,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1496938/?format=json","text_counter":160,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. Abdul Haji","speaker_title":"The Temporary Speaker","speaker":null,"content":" Sen. Hillary Sigei."},{"id":1496939,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1496939/?format=json","text_counter":161,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. Wakili Sigei","speaker_title":"","speaker":null,"content":"Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to support the Bill and make several proposals to amend it, so that it fits the purpose. Listening to Sen. (Dr.) Oburu, one is made to understand the importance and the history of fundraising. Sen. (Dr.) Oburu Odinga has graphically explained or run us through how it all happened when it happened, and the parties that were involved. I believe that, based on the experience that he saw with the first president of this country and the experience that he has had over time, we cannot overstate the importance of Harambee's. As that is the position in terms of its importance, regulating, it is where the problem comes in. The Bill in itself has objectives that have been laid out, including a regulatory mechanism to ensure that at the national and county levels, we regulate how we conduct fundraisings, Harambee and appeals for whatever purpose. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."},{"id":1496940,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1496940/?format=json","text_counter":162,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. Wakili Sigei","speaker_title":"","speaker":null,"content":"We have various kinds of Harambees. We have fundraisings that are desired to support those who have medical bills, those who do not have insurance, or are unable to get insurance. Secondly, there are fundraisings for schools, churches and for purposes of public development in some public projects. We cannot say we do not need to regulate because a regulatory mechanism will help us determine how to do it, who to do it with and include the aspect of participation by public officers. This Bill still talks about the issuance of licenses and permits for purposes of this particular fundraising. I will come to that in a short while when I make specific references to the relevant clauses that speak to that. However, the objective that the Bill seeks to enhance transparency and accountability is important in terms of how we conduct fundraisings and how to utilise the resources or the funds we collect during a public appeal in Harambee. Lastly, it regulates the conduct of public or state officers in planning and conducting a public appeal. Those objectives are critical. They are important and good because they help streamline fundraising. However, the provisions of the Bill, as they are put, particularly under Part Two on the regulation of fundraising appeals, where the Cabinet Secretary and the County Executive Committee Member (CECM) in charge of planning and social services in our respective counties are given the mandate under Clause 4(1)(c), to receive, vet, process applications and issue permits. When you run through all the provisions of that particular clause, it will not serve the purpose of being a regulatory mechanism. Why? The other day, we had issues with the absence of the Cabinet Secretaries who were unable to attend the House to respond to critical national issues. This cannot be one of those things that we would wish to burden a Cabinet Secretary or a CECM to be the person to vet applications for purposes of fundraising. We are representatives of the people from where we come from. Every other weekend, when we get home, you get not less than 50 cards asking us to support fundraisings, whether it is for school, medical or burials. It is because of the inadequacy and capacity of many of the people whom we represent, who are unable to pay school fees and the other types of fundraising that they are appealing. If we then say that we will be expecting a CECM or a Cabinet Secretary to grant a permit, we will never at any given time be able to do the mainstream work of a Cabinet Secretary. The basic thing that they will be doing every morning is to look at the applications before their desk and approve or reject them. The provisions under Part Two, in terms of having the Cabinet Secretary be the person involved in receiving, vetting, processing, and approving these permits, are supposed to be deleted. In fact, I would propose that we get permits, which I do not think is necessary for regulation. This must be decentralised to the lowest level in the administration of the national Government, which is the chief. In my county, for example, in my ward, Nyangores ward in itself, in every village, I can confirm to you that every day, we have fundraising in every town. You can imagine an entire country where we ask the Cabinet Secretary to approve the fundraising. That entire provision, I propose, should be deleted not because of the number of applications. When you look at the provisions of Clause 5 of the Bill state that – The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."},{"id":1496941,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1496941/?format=json","text_counter":163,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. Wakili Sigei","speaker_title":"","speaker":null,"content":"“The Cabinet Secretary shall not, later than three months, at the end of each financial year, prepare and submit for tabling before Parliament a report containing information including a comprehensive statement of the purpose of the appeals.” This is asking the Cabinet Secretary to come to this House to tell us about all the applications for appeals or fundraising; one was about school fees, another was about an expectant mother who was unable to pay her bills in the hospital, and the third was about a school-going child who needed to go abroad. It cannot be one of the things that we would want the law to provide for. Similarly, the CECM is expected to do the same thing, and such a provision is what I would call over-legislation. We do not need this. I propose that this clause be deleted, even if we are desiring to legislate and regulate fundraising. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, Clause 7 provides for the role of the CECM in terms of submitting annual reports to the County Assembly. In this case, the same concerns and the same requirements that they are supposed to do are not among those things that we should burden the office of the CECM with in order to engage in submitting such reports before the Assembly every financial year. Clause 11 provides for exemptions to this regulation. I am glad that the Bill itself has provided for instances where no regulation will be required. First of all, this is where we are looking at other statutes, including betting, lotteries, and the Gaming Act, that provide for instances where a member of the public, a player, or an agent is entitled to solicit funds. Clause (11)(b) states that – “Money or property collected by or under the authority of a recognised representative of a religious association registered under the Socialist Act for normal collections such as tithes and offerings or the purpose of carrying out developments or projects for the benefit of the association.” This is one of those critical support bases that fundraisings help our churches. A good number of us represent local churches in our various areas of representation. No church can develop and build itself without the support of members of the public and members of that church. In fact, they do what they normally call merry-go-rounds. We fundraise for church A today and church B tomorrow. We do the third church and the merry-go-round, and the process goes on and on until all the churches have developed their infrastructure to deliver service to their people. This exemption is important. I know most of the churches back where we come from struggle to construct even the smallest of the structures without Harambees and the support of the members. This provision is critical, and I support such an introduction of the exemption to the construction of churches and those under other statutes provided. Under the provisions of Clause 12(3), an individual who seeks to fundraise is required to make an application to the Cabinet Secretary or the respective CECM to be registered as an entity for purposes of fundraising. I have a problem with this. We need to regulate, but we leave it open for the people who are in need at that particular time to apply for that permit or license to conduct fundraising. It is not proper to create an entity whose business will be to be the one getting the licenses and undertaking public collection. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."}]}