{"count":1608389,"next":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/?format=json&page=148167","previous":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/?format=json&page=148165","results":[{"id":1499852,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1499852/?format=json","text_counter":43,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Hon. Alice Wahome","speaker_title":"The Cabinet Secretary for Lands, Public Works, Housing and Urban Development","speaker":null,"content":" Yes, I am aware. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."},{"id":1499853,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1499853/?format=json","text_counter":44,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Hon. Kingi","speaker_title":"The Speaker","speaker":null,"content":" It is not a chairman of a parastatal nor a commission. Everybody is answerable to Parliament, including the so-called independent commissions. The challenge is that the Senate cannot have the Chairman of that Commission take the podium that you have just taken for purposes of responding to these questions. Therefore, they have to respond to these questions through the parent Ministry. We understand that the NLC is not answerable to the Ministry. However, the question is not by the Ministry, but Parliament. For them responding to that question does not in any way mean that they are answerable to the Ministry. You are just a conveyor belt for purposes of giving us that information from the NLC. The NLC is not the only independent commission. There are a number of them. Any questions directed to such commissions, the information is always brought to the House by the parent Ministry. You need to let the NLC know that by providing information to the Senate through you does not mean that they are answerable to the Ministry. The Ministry is only conveying that information to the Senate because we cannot have the NLC come to the Senate for purposes of responding to our questions. You need to make them understand that the Ministry by seeking the NLC to provide information is not interfering with their mandate. Neither is the Ministry saying you are answerable to us. Let them give you the information. As you come to the Senate on matters relating to the NLC, have them tagged along so that they sit with you and provide any supplementary information that is required. They cannot hide behind that argument that they are independent and, therefore, cannot give the Cabinet Secretary information. If that were the case, how are we going to get information, if not through the Ministry? This Government has three arms of Government; the Executive, the Judiciary and Parliament. Independent commissions cannot purport to be a fourth arm of Government. They cannot."},{"id":1499854,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1499854/?format=json","text_counter":45,"type":"scene","speaker_name":"","speaker_title":"","speaker":null,"content":"(Applause)"},{"id":1499855,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1499855/?format=json","text_counter":46,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Hon. Kingi","speaker_title":"The Speaker","speaker":null,"content":"They have to provide that information through you. The next time you are coming to respond to these questions because we will defer them, the NLC will have to come along with you. The committees can do their work as you have suggested. They can summon NLC. However, for purposes of responding to questions, they have to know that we can only do that through the parent Ministry and the parent Cabinet Secretary; that is you. We will defer these questions to a later time. We will now move to---"},{"id":1499856,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1499856/?format=json","text_counter":47,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Hon. Alice Wahome","speaker_title":"The Cabinet Secretary for Lands, Public Works, Housing and Urban Development","speaker":null,"content":" Mr. Speaker, Sir, if you can indulge me, I did not say that they have declined to give me the information. Also, I did not say that they are hiding behind the independence. It is factual that they are an independent commission. The reason that they were given that space is so that the executive does not overreach. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."},{"id":1499857,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1499857/?format=json","text_counter":48,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Hon. Alice Wahome","speaker_title":"The Cabinet Secretary for Lands, Public Works, Housing and Urban Development","speaker":null,"content":"During my vetting, I was even accused of not having a good relationship with them, which is not true. I was also accused of wanting to take their mandate through some amendments we had proposed. I am the one saying that the Senate is giving me or requesting the information from the wrong person. There is another route through which the Senate can get the same information and I am not directing how this work should be done. Let me finish because you will not force me to give information. I would rather that the priority is given to the owners of the information."},{"id":1499858,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1499858/?format=json","text_counter":49,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Hon. Kingi","speaker_title":"The Speaker","speaker":null,"content":" You cannot put a point of order against the Cabinet Secretary unless you want clarification and intervention. Yes, Sen. Sifuna."},{"id":1499859,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1499859/?format=json","text_counter":50,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. Sifuna","speaker_title":"","speaker":{"id":13599,"legal_name":"Sifuna Edwin Watenya","slug":"sifuna-edwin-watenya"},"content":"Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am a bit surprised because the Cabinet Secretary is a former Member of this House. She knows very well that once the Chair has made a ruling, she cannot argue with the Chair's decision. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I know you said that I cannot raise a point of order, but she is totally out of order. You have made a decision that we, in this House, interact with the head of the Ministry. Whatever arrangements she has with the NLC on how to source information is none of our business. The person who will appear here to answer is the Cabinet Secretary responsible for matters of land. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir."},{"id":1499860,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1499860/?format=json","text_counter":51,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Hon. Kingi","speaker_title":"The Speaker","speaker":null,"content":" Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, proceed."},{"id":1499861,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1499861/?format=json","text_counter":52,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale","speaker_title":"","speaker":{"id":170,"legal_name":"Bonny Khalwale","slug":"bonny-khalwale"},"content":"Mr. Speaker, Sir, for the record, let it reflect that the Cabinet Secretary for Lands, Public Works, Housing and Urban Development, who is my friend, is an advocate. She is conversant with the Constitution of Kenya. Could she fall back to the provision of Article 35 of the Constitution of Kenya, which will help her access the information that we are looking for, climb down a little bit and subject herself to being answerable to this House? Cabinet Secretary, as a senior member of the Government, and equally because I am also a senior member of the Government, we are expected to make it easy for the Government to deliver. Therefore, when either the Speaker or the Cabinet Secretary becomes argumentative and defensive--- Could she clarify what she is defending? All we want is information. I propose that you direct her to go back and bring a proper answer, nothing less."}]}