{"count":1608389,"next":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/?format=json&page=148177","previous":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/?format=json&page=148175","results":[{"id":1499952,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1499952/?format=json","text_counter":143,"type":"heading","speaker_name":"","speaker_title":"","speaker":null,"content":"082"},{"id":1499953,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1499953/?format=json","text_counter":144,"type":"heading","speaker_name":"","speaker_title":"","speaker":null,"content":"STATUS OF ADJUDICATION OF BORDER AREAS OF THARAKA-NITHI AND MERU COUNTIES"},{"id":1499954,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1499954/?format=json","text_counter":145,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. Gataya Mo Fire","speaker_title":"","speaker":null,"content":"Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker. Sir. Quite a number of issues are affecting the Tharaka Nithi County along the boundary between the Tharaka and Meru Counties. This is why I want to know from the Cabinet Secretary whether she can provide a status update on the adjudication of the areas along the border of the Tharaka Nithi and Meru counties, particularly the Toroni, Viite, Nkondi and Turema locations in Tharaka Nithi County, which have been the subject of long-standing land ownership tussles. When will the Ministry issue title deeds to landowners in these regions? The Cabinet Secretary should also give us the steps the Government is taking to demarcate the boundary between the two counties, which is likely to quell the tensions between communities on either side. Thank you."},{"id":1499955,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1499955/?format=json","text_counter":146,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. Abdul Haji","speaker_title":"The Temporary Speaker","speaker":null,"content":" Cabinet Secretary, proceed. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."},{"id":1499956,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1499956/?format=json","text_counter":147,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. Abdul Haji","speaker_title":"The Temporary Speaker","speaker":null,"content":"Hon. Senators, we will proceed to the next question."},{"id":1499957,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1499957/?format=json","text_counter":148,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Hon. Alice Wahome","speaker_title":"The Cabinet Secretary for Lands, Public Works, Housing and Urban Development","speaker":null,"content":" Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I have responded to Senator Mwenda Gataya Mo Fire's question on the status of land adjudication in his area, Tharaka Nithi, and the challenges between the Tharaka Nithi boundary and the Meru boundary. The first question is about the status update on the adjudication of areas along the border of the Tharaka Nithi and Meru counties, particularly Ntoroni, Viiti, Nkondi, and Turema. I think part ‘E’ is not there. You know, some of my staff may not have grammatical accuracy for some of these words. These are locations in the Tharaka Nithi, which have been the subject of long- standing land ownership disputes. The statement on land adjudication along Meru and the Tharaka county boundary has not been unlocked yet, as there has been no consensus between the disputing communities. This boundary has been contested since 1992. The solution will pave the way for the ascertainment of land rights, as adjudication officers for the respective adjudication areas will have clear jurisdiction over the extent of their areas of operation. This is because the definition of adjudication sections follows established administrative boundaries. This is the response, therefore, that the hon. Senator should take. For us to do adjudication sections, we follow established administrative boundaries, which then have been disputed. Therefore, we stopped the work. This scenario, as indicated, is in response to a statement submitted by the Ministry to the Senate Standing Committee on National Cohesion, Equal Opportunities and Regional Integration. I have attached the response and I cannot now provide a different reaction. What we are saying in this particular question, hon. Senator, is that you know the challenge is not even the boundary. The challenge is the people. Allow me to use this Floor to address the people of Tharaka and Meru along this boundary. What they are asking me to do is gerrymander along the administrative boundaries or the county boundaries. Some people are Tharaka. They live in Meru, an area that is said to be within the boundary. They say that their land cannot be registered as Meru because I am a Tharaka. When you go to the Meru people, then they have land in Tharaka. This is an unusual situation because today, I can buy land in Nairobi, Kiambu or Baringo counties. I cannot demand the boundary be changed to suit my ethnic community or background. The elected leaders must help to tell people that if they are living in Meru, they allow us to demarcate and title their land as if it were in Meru because you and the land are two different entities. One is a person; the other is land. This is a peculiar position we have here. People living within Meru County, and they are Tharaka, are saying, \"No, my title cannot read Meru because I am a Tharaka.\" People in Tharaka and Meru County are saying the same thing. This is a simple problem. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."},{"id":1499958,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1499958/?format=json","text_counter":149,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Hon. Alice Wahome","speaker_title":"The Cabinet Secretary for Lands, Public Works, Housing and Urban Development","speaker":null,"content":"The last time I was in Tharaka to give titles, the Njuri-Ncheke members and other leaders said that I should not touch the question of administrative boundaries. In response to the question of administrative boundaries, to deal with that, Parliament has to give a resolution if we alter it. I am speaking also to the governors of the two counties. To alter the boundary, you need the Independent Electoral and Boundaries Commission (IEBC) to be appointed by Parliament to do this specific work, but we shall not have resolved the problem. I have adjudication sections, but we cannot do them because your people, hon. Senator, chased my officers. That is the answer. We shall remain like that until they accept that if your land is in Meru and you are from Tharaka, wewe utakaa Tharaka Nithi. However, you can sell the land if you do not want to be in Tharaka, but instead in Meru. These are the messages you should help me deliver. We can have a baraza and talk to the Njuri Ncheke. You can also ask your counterparts in Meru to talk to each other so that we resolve this. I will need less than two years to give you titles that are remaining because we have already declared the sections. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, they know what they are asking me will not resolve the question of titling. Redrawing the boundary will not happen around that area because it is not easy. The way they are saying that it should be drawn is not practical. I cannot remove your land and put it in Meru because you are a Tharaka living on your land in Meru. The hon. Senator knows this problem. He should be my supporter, so that we accept the boundaries. Using this Flor, my appeal is that we should accept the boundary as it is. If your land is in Meru and you are from Tharaka Nithi, sell it to Meru County or whoever is interested and relocate. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, there is a challenge. The best solution is to agree to live with each other. These are just physical boundaries. Why are they becoming a challenge? I do not understand because Kenyans can live anywhere irrespective of their ethnic communities. This is not a problem that can be resolved by redrawing that boundary. There will be other people in the interior and away from the boundary. You could find a Tharaka living in Meru. Will I be doing service to him by changing the boundary? These are issues that are painful for us. We have already declared the adjudication sections and we are ready to finish. I have no doubt that this problem is more political than legal. I have analysed and established that sometimes people use it for political reasons. I am not saying that the Senator is one of those who use it, but it is quite political and emotive because people kill each other over that subject. Therefore, the Ministry has reached a point where it will ask the leaders to go back and speak to their people. On the second question, you wanted to know how long it takes to title adjudication section. It takes approximately two years to complete when all other factors are favourable. However, the Ministry will hasten the process of adjudication in the stated areas as soon as the boundary issue is settled. We have left that matter until we resolve those questions being raised. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."},{"id":1499959,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1499959/?format=json","text_counter":150,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Hon. Alice Wahome","speaker_title":"The Cabinet Secretary for Lands, Public Works, Housing and Urban Development","speaker":null,"content":"Despite the challenges over the county boundary, the Ministry has previously completed adjudication of various sections as indicated in Table A. Hon. Senator, I have a table there that has given a list of 10 adjudication areas with a total of 7,780 parcels. Table A are registered adjudication sections while Table B are sections finalised under the National Titling Programme where we do not charge. In most of your region, we were working with a programme which produces titles at the National Titling Centre that is funded separately. Those are other 11 sections in Table B. There are ongoing adjudication sections, including in Chiakariga, where we have 500 objections. We commenced work, but received 500 objections. We cannot proceed with that particular matter until the objections are resolved. There is also a Case Petition No.5. Hon. Senator, kindly talk with these people so that they remove the case from court. Call me so that we talk to them together. That is the Chiakariga problem. Stalled adjudication sections due to boundary disputes are three. All the others are going on. Look at Table D. You cannot step in Nthurima, Karocho and Mukothima. Your people chased my officers and they were told to leave. We need to have a serious, open and candid discussion on how to deal with the dispute, so that we complete the 7,942 parcels for those three adjudication sections along the disputed boundary. Regarding (iii), I wish to respond to the hon. Senator as follows. The boundaries of Kenya’s counties were established by the 2010 Constitution of Kenya, which replaced the previous provincial system. The boundary between Meru and Tharaka-Nithi is described in the District and Provinces Act of 1992. However, this boundary is contested. The Constitution, in Article 188(1), provides the following in relation to variation of county boundaries. Although I have said I would not recommend going for change of the boundary because that will not resolve the dispute, the process of how to alter boundaries is provided for in Article 188, where Parliament is mandated, by way of a resolution by the National Assembly, to form a commission to carry out that exercise. Obviously, this would require the full commission. We have an IEBC, although not fully constituted. Instead of forming another commission, they should request the services of the IEBC. What I am saying is that before taking that route, this is something humanly possible. We have the leadership of the two counties, including Governors, Senators and Members representing the constituencies around that boundary. They can sit together, but I do not think there is any discussion going on between the two governors. When you step there, you are told not to touch. A Cabinet Secretary is told that they have not finished with the boundary issue and they do not want titling to go on. That is the position."},{"id":1499960,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1499960/?format=json","text_counter":151,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. Abdul Haji","speaker_title":"The Temporary Speaker","speaker":null,"content":" Sen. Gataya Mo Fire, proceed. Use the microphone next to you."},{"id":1499961,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1499961/?format=json","text_counter":152,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. Gataya Mo Fire","speaker_title":"","speaker":null,"content":"Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I am privy to all the information that the Cabinet Secretary has given. The dispute between the two counties is perennial and it has affected quite a number of people. However, hon. Cabinet Secretary, The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."}]}