{"count":1608389,"next":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/?format=json&page=150353","previous":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/?format=json&page=150351","results":[{"id":1521712,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1521712/?format=json","text_counter":272,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. Veronica Maina","speaker_title":"The Temporary Speaker","speaker":null,"content":" Sen. Cherarkey, are you there?"},{"id":1521713,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1521713/?format=json","text_counter":273,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. Cherarkey","speaker_title":"","speaker":{"id":13217,"legal_name":"Cherarkey K Samson","slug":"cherarkey-k-samson"},"content":"Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker, for this opportunity. I have read the committee report, but I found it was just a clean-up. I am a strong believer in institutions. This country is facing non-implementation of development of institutions. We do not have a shortage of laws that can fight corruption in this country. This report on the conflict of interest is and should be that the EACC cannot have capacity to fight white-collar crimes and even transnational crimes. If you can recall, in United Kingdom (UK), we had the famous case of Chicken gate. The UK could nail down the suspects, but Kenya is yet to. Additionally, we have the issue Itare dam in Nakuru where even the DCI had to travel to Italy, but nothing came out of it. As Parliament, what we should be discussing is that are we appropriating enough funds, capacity, human resource and ability for EACC to prosecute white-collar crimes. That should be the question that we are having today in the evening. If you look at the report that the EACC has brought before the Senate, it is about conviction of conviction of bribery of Kshs20,000, Kshs10,000 and traffic officers. Meanwhile, the governors and senior national Government officials are facing allegations of corruption, but have never been convicted. The only case that we saw that has made a headway is the one of Waititu case, where close to Kshs600 million was being adjudicated upon. Consequently, people feel that there was no proper and punitive decision by the court. From the onset, there are many laws that can fight corruption. Section 42, of the Anti-Corruption and Economic Crimes Act has defined what conflict of interest is."},{"id":1521714,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1521714/?format=json","text_counter":274,"type":"scene","speaker_name":"","speaker_title":"","speaker":null,"content":"(Sen. Oketch Gicheru and Sen. Betty Montent consulted loudly)"},{"id":1521715,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1521715/?format=json","text_counter":275,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. Mumma","speaker_title":"The Temporary Speaker","speaker":null,"content":" Order, Sen. Eddie and Sen. Montet, please consult in low tones."},{"id":1521716,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1521716/?format=json","text_counter":276,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. Cherarkey","speaker_title":"","speaker":{"id":13217,"legal_name":"Cherarkey K Samson","slug":"cherarkey-k-samson"},"content":"Madam Temporary Speaker, the new chairpersons should be taken for a retreat. You know, when you become a chairperson, there is some decorum that is expected of you. Madam Temporary Speaker, Anti-Corruption and Economic Crimes Act, as revised in 2015, Section 42 defines what conflict of interest is. Corruption offenses are outlined in Section 2- The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."},{"id":1521717,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1521717/?format=json","text_counter":277,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. Cherarkey","speaker_title":"","speaker":{"id":13217,"legal_name":"Cherarkey K Samson","slug":"cherarkey-k-samson"},"content":"\"corruption\" means— (a) an offence under any of the provisions of sections 39, 44, 46 and 47; (b) bribery; (c) fraud; (d) embezzlement or misappropriation of public funds; (e) abuse of office; (f) breach of trust; or (g) an offence involving dishonesty— (i) in connection with any tax, rate or impost levied under any Act; or (ii) under any written law relating to the elections of persons to public office; Madam Temporary Speaker, does it mean that we will have to do a law on, for example, bribery act? I know it is there. Does it mean we will do about embezzlement or bid rigging? The anti-corruption law is already there. The aspect that we should be discussing is about its enforcement and the fight against corruption. That is when Kenyans will build up on the issue. The issue of whether public servants are doing business with Government is neither here nor there. That is a moving target. Madam Temporary Speaker, if conflict of interest, for example, today was passed as is, all of us who do farming as a side hustle or selling animals, like the Sen. Murgor, or anybody else, would have to stop. So, we need to be careful so that we do not--- Madam Temporary Speaker, with the thinning of the payslip of many Kenyan workers, they are forced to do side hustles. Does it mean it is conflict of interest when after the Senate is adjourned and you go to look at your kuku, ngombe et cetera ? I seek your indulgence on the use of Kiswahili words. The point is we need to be honest. What should happen? I have seen the EACC and Sen. Okiya Omtatah, the indomitable lion of Busia County, charging people with conflict of interest, yet they cannot establish the link. Madam Temporary Speaker, in Nandi County, the other day, when the scandal of payroll emerged, close relatives of Governor Sang were found to be in the county payroll. No one up to date has been charged. The EACC cannot argue today that they do not have the law to charge. Section 42 of Anti-Corruption Economic Crimes Act of 2003 as revised in 2016 provides the definition of what is conflict of interest. It is about the enforcement and fight against corruption. It is not about anything else. We need to appropriate more resources. I know there is an issue with the Supreme Court now, but there are procedures on how that one can be handled. I would like to appeal that what we are having now is serious because I have seen that the committee observed that the Bill seeks to consolidate role of conflict of interest in public service. However, I expected the Joint Committee of the National Assembly and the Senate, to come up with how we can clean up. They have not given that to us. In all referrals that they have done, they have said, they will consolidate the laws relating to conflict of interest in public service. Why did the committee not come up with a proposal of legislative? How long will it take? We know we are mid-term of the Senate. Can the Joint Committee of Mediation, The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."},{"id":1521718,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1521718/?format=json","text_counter":278,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. Cherarkey","speaker_title":"","speaker":{"id":13217,"legal_name":"Cherarkey K Samson","slug":"cherarkey-k-samson"},"content":"come up with a version of legislative intervention agreeable by both Houses so that we can fast-track, to make it easy? The committee should have given us a legislative intervention on how to consolidate the laws relating to conflict of interest in public service. Madam Temporary Speaker, I have told you most of the civil servants, have side hustles. Some people are hiring and tilling land in Narok County. They are planting wheat. If you are a principal of school YX. On weekend when you are off, you are working on your wheat in Narok County, does it mean that is conflict of interest because you are earning from different sources? So, we need a legislative intervention that will tell us how the conflict of interest is handled in the public service. Madam Temporary Speaker, assume that your husband is hired as an EACC officer in Malindi. You are a chief somewhere in Nyakach, in Kisumu County. What does the law say? You are related by marriage. Or, your son applies for a job and you are not aware. You are a Senator here and your son applies for a job in the Public Service Commission and they are hired. Can somebody say that is conflict of interest? We need to be clear so that we do not play. I have seen people getting excited about this Bill because the United Nations and Non-Governmental Organisations (NGOs) have said that we need to pass it. Madam Temporary Speaker, when you look at principles of law, we should do the law that functions within the society of Kenya. This is a law that has been brought by the NGOs and people who want to look nice before the Western countries. The other day, they stopped USAID. So, we need to be careful so that we do not import things that can easily abort in our society. You and I know that you can have as many cousins as thousands. What does it mean if the cousin of your cousin of your cousin is hired, for example, in the county government and you are the Senator? What does it say about conflict of interest? So, let us not rush. This mediation version should have involved both Houses, so that we do not set ourselves up against our own society. Another aspect that I would like to point out because I have three points is Clause 41. I agree that we need to limit the time of suspension to be 90 days with the leave of court if there is extension. We saw a number of governors when they were under investigation of corruption cases, were suspended because they have executive powers. The 90 days are enough. In fact, during my time as the Chairperson of the Senate Standing Committee on Justice, Legal Affairs and Human Rights (JLAHR), we had even proposed that the case of corruption should be heard and dispensed within 24 months. In the last Session, we came up with a proposal. In fact, at that time, we had a multi-agency team that was co-chaired by the Chairpersons of JLAHR in the National Assembly and the Senate. Members were Attorney General (AG), National Intelligence Service (NIS), and the Kenya Revenue Authority (KRA). We sat in the same Chamber and agreed that corruption cases must and should be dispensed within 24 months. I agree with the Chairperson that some people could take advantage. How do we prevent when they gossip and your political saboteurs want to remove you from office? We must guard against that. I agree with the committee that these 90 The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."},{"id":1521719,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1521719/?format=json","text_counter":279,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. Cherarkey","speaker_title":"","speaker":{"id":13217,"legal_name":"Cherarkey K Samson","slug":"cherarkey-k-samson"},"content":"days are more than sufficient. Let somebody be suspended from the office, for instance, a governor, but let us make it 90 days. Let them investigate and prosecute. Madam Temporary Speaker, the committee should have added that corruption cases must be heard and dispensed within two years. We know the backlog that there is in the courts of law. The fight against corruption cannot be won easily. You remember the former President. The current Cabinet Secretary (CS) said we lose Kshs2 billion through corruption. This is true. The Government has tried to streamline payment of services through E-Citizen. However, we are yet to see the benefit. If we are losing Kshs2 billion per day, it looks like we have domesticated corruption. We must be stringent on the fight against corruption. Therefore, 90 days should and must be applied, including to governors because they have executive powers. The cases should be heard and determined within two years. The Judiciary should take the lead. I know Judiciary is facing a lot of challenges at the moment. I have heard people saying we should have formed Judiciary ombudsman to listen to the complaints. However, I believe the Judicial Service Commission has powers to do so. In any case, we do not want juripesa. You saw the ruling on the Majority and Minority. It took two years for the court to determine. What was hard about it? Madam Temporary Speaker, in the last Session led by our Speaker Emeritus, Kenneth Makelo Lusaka and the then Deputy Speaker, who is the current Deputy President and yours truly was the Chairperson of the Senate Standing Committee on Justice, Legal Affairs and Human Rights. We did draft pleadings and moved to Milimani Law Court, before Justice Weldon Korir on 24 legislations passed without concurrence of the Senate by the National Assembly, including the health laws and yet health is devolved. Madam Temporary Speaker, can you believe the courts have never given a direction about such interventions up to today? That is why sometimes, the judiciary is not beyond criticism which is why we are telling them, to do their job and fasttrack these cases. We even have land cases that have stayed for 30 or even 40 years. That is why we are talking of backlog in the Judiciary and also to blame Parliament to some extent. If, for example, the Judiciary requests for Kshs40 billion and then we give them Kshs18 billion, or 20 billion. What are we saying? They do not have the capacity, ability or even human resources to dispense the cases. So even as we blame the Judiciary for slowing judgments, we must also as a Parliament blame ourselves. We have not allocated enough resources to the Judiciary to dispense of the cases. Clause 46 which is my second last point is on the liability question against the EACC, or person. I do not know why this question has not been answered by the committee. That sometimes the EACC officers or any other entity can act overzealous. Sometimes there can be private prosecutions. Where does it fall where they destroy property when they are arresting somebody? The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."},{"id":1521720,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1521720/?format=json","text_counter":280,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. Cherarkey","speaker_title":"","speaker":{"id":13217,"legal_name":"Cherarkey K Samson","slug":"cherarkey-k-samson"},"content":"The committee says it is an entity mandated to ensure compliance and enforcement of Chapter 6 of the Constitution, which includes the conflict of interest. The Senate had prevented them, but where do you stop the liability? We do not want to see EACC coming to your house and turning upside down everything without proper investigative mechanisms. What happens if, for example, they arrest you with milk or tomatoes and they take you to custody? Those things gets spoilt. Who should be held accountable and liable? I agree that we need to prevent these people from being subject to civil and criminal proceedings. To what extent? I think that is what we need to do. Even the President can be given exemption from liability to a particular level. They should have said “on discharge of official duties.” That should have been the essence of moving. On the issue of management of conflict of interest, the committee has said repeal of the Public Officer Ethics Act is necessary, which I agree. However, all said and done, this matter has been captured in the Leadership and Integrity Act. Lastly, I also agree that we need to clean up the laws that we use to fight against corruption in this country. However, it is not about the laws, but our values as a society as Article 10 says. It is the ability and capacity to give resources to EACC. Does EACC have enough capacity to fight white-collar crimes since most of these thieves steal through papers? Do they have resources to follow up? Sen. Okiya Omtatah, I do not know whether you remember the tax havens such as Cayman Island where they used to hide the loot. Do you remember the famous case of KPLC, Gichuru and the rest? Does it have the capacity to go and follow up in Dubai and many other cases? Can lifestyle audit be done to officers who just get offices? When you go to the village or when pass big towns, you are told that such and such apartments belong to so and so. The other day, he could not even afford to pay even one or two litres for 2,000cc vehicle. Now you find a gentleman driving 5,700cc. Madam Temporary Speaker, we were even told of an officer who used to fly from here to Machakos by helicopter because they had a lot of money at their disposal. So, we need also to work on the lifestyle audit. We do not want to criminalize wealth and glorify poverty, but we must be very realistic. One of the reasons the Gen Z rose up - and the seconder of the Motion pointed to it - was opulence. There is a former United States of America ambassador who was here who said that we were eating and vomiting on theri shoes. That is what is happening. Civil servants should ensure they discharge their duty with all their power, but also we must be realistic as a country. What works for us and what is important as a country? Madam Temporary Speaker, I have realized this mediated version conflict of interest Bill was more of a clean-up. Let us be careful and not pass the laws to just make the World Bank and other Bretton Woods institutions happy at the expense of Kenyans. Some things can work and others that cannot. This Conflict of Interest Bill is one that has been defined. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."},{"id":1521721,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1521721/?format=json","text_counter":281,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. Cherarkey","speaker_title":"","speaker":{"id":13217,"legal_name":"Cherarkey K Samson","slug":"cherarkey-k-samson"},"content":"I want to clarify that the conflict of interest under Section 42 of the Anti- Corruption Economic Crimes Act is already defined. So, the question is, what is it that they want to achieve? If we look at this Bill, it will be very bad and I am still disappointed. I challenge the committee that let us also now push for the EACC to prosecute people, even if it is in Nandi County, Bomet, or even West Pokot counties. Sen. Okiya Omtatah, I can see your governor is constructing many things here in Karen and all over the place. Yet when he was not a governor, he was not doing those things. I will give you such information in private on what is happening. People are having unexplained wealth. I oppose."}]}