{"count":1608389,"next":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/?format=json&page=152696","previous":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/?format=json&page=152694","results":[{"id":1545142,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1545142/?format=json","text_counter":192,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. Oketch Gicheru","speaker_title":"","speaker":null,"content":"Looking at the Report that we have, we have been told as a Parliament, to be comfortable that our gross--- Let me get it because I do not want to say things that do not exist. This is what has been proposed, that we be comfortable with a gross financing ratio of 25:75. That means that 25 per cent is going to the external debt market and 75 per cent to the domestic borrowing market. Last year, we said that that gross borrowing must be 50 per cent. How is it proposed to be 75 per cent now? The net financing strategy is 35 per cent to 65 per cent. This means that where Parliament has become comfortable in becoming a rubberstamp in this process, the Executive also becomes comfortable that they can increase the domestic debt borrowing because it is easy and quick money to get. They can keep on increasing it. That is what we have become. We are a mere rubberstamp in this process of budget- making. When you increase the Domestic Public Borrowing, you are killing Keroche Breweries. It is not possible for Keroche Breweries to borrow and compete with the Government because the Government borrowing is going to be lucrative for the commercial banks. Today, you are killing Bata, Safaricom and choosing to kill all the businesses that I see thriving in this economy."},{"id":1545143,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1545143/?format=json","text_counter":193,"type":"scene","speaker_name":"","speaker_title":"","speaker":null,"content":"(Applause)"},{"id":1545144,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1545144/?format=json","text_counter":194,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. Oketch Gicheru","speaker_title":"","speaker":null,"content":"We have seen a number of our businesses closing down out of this borrowing. You want to raise a bigger deficit of about Kshs900 billion, which again has increased from Kshs700 billion last year. As you increase the cost of borrowing in this country and the risk associated with it in the domestic market, you are also increasing taxes on these businesses. The corporate tax, income tax and all the taxes in this country are making it virtually impossible to think about a start-up business. Businesses that could easily attract Kshs500 million cannot get those monies in our economy today. The reason being the structure of debt makes it not possible to get money to finance them in our economy. If you come to a start-up market, we do not have a thriving venture capitalist, who can backstop the idea of lack of credit in our commercial business. I know there are people arguing that there is no country that does not borrow. Yes, even the United States of America (USA) borrows. That is true. USA has a debt. China and other countries borrow, but they borrow in their currency. The USA is comfortable with their debt. If the worst happens, the USA will simply print their money and pay. However, when we borrow, we peg it to the Dollar and any adjustments in the global market econony will affect us. Therefore, our debt will continue piling. If we approve what the National Treasury is asking us without juxtaposing it with the BPS, by June this year, we will have a debt stock of Kshs11.07 trillion. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."},{"id":1545145,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1545145/?format=json","text_counter":195,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. Oketch Gicheru","speaker_title":"","speaker":null,"content":"Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, when I look at you, you already have grey hair and you have not paid the debt that you were born and found yet, in another three months, your debt stock as a country is going to Kshs11.07 trillion. Let me remind you that even this number is not factual. It is not a number that you can be comfortable defending. This is a number that we are given by the National Treasury to defend its proposed ratio for borrowing."},{"id":1545146,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1545146/?format=json","text_counter":196,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. Kathuri","speaker_title":"The Deputy Speaker","speaker":{"id":13590,"legal_name":"Murungi Kathuri","slug":"murungi-kathuri"},"content":" Sen. Eddy Oketch, what is the relationship between my grey hair and debt management?"},{"id":1545147,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1545147/?format=json","text_counter":197,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. Oketch Gicheru","speaker_title":"","speaker":null,"content":"Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, that is a good question. The relationship is very simple. Since you were born, you are almost going towards your old age, you have been paying a lot of debt in this country that you do not understand, and that has not helped you. I see you working very hard. Every day you are in this House to work for the nation. You are earning a meagre income, which again, 50 per cent of it must go to pay the debt. Now, I am imagining what will your children remain with. You, you have worked as a donkey for this country and you have paid everything but now, what is going to happen to your children when you wake up in June and they have got Kshs11.07 trillion worth of debt? This is what I am crying about. I sympathize with you, and I empathize with you. I hope that, as a House, you will see how serious this thing is affecting us to the extent that we must take control of the debt management process. One thing that we must also insist on as a House, is that next time the National Treasury comes here, and before we consider the BPS, they must give us a scientific rationale of where they are coming up with these debt numbers. If you go to the National Treasury, they have got a different figure from the Office of the Controller of Budget; they have a different figure from the Auditor-General; they have got a different figure from the Central Bank of Kenya. Who is telling us the truth? As I have told you, that entire debt stock, when it was borrowed, we were not explained to on what it was going to do. When it is now being consumed, we are not told what it is doing. I remember in the former regime, there was a deficit of about Kshs500 billion when it came, and from the Auditor-General's report, when you followed the Kshs500 billion, it was committed to infrastructure in one region. How do you borrow Kshs500 billion and then commit it to infrastructure in one region? How is it fair yet, the control of that infrastructure in Migori County, where I come from, does not concern that infrastructure? I empathize with the Senator of Kisii County because he is always the most vocal about debt issues. Where he comes from, I did not see that money working in Kisii. I did not see that money in Turkana nor in Mandera. Even, where you come from in Meru, Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I looked at those numbers and I did not see that money in Meru. It was not there, Kshs500 billion. Today, when it comes to paying it, all of us must participate, and not just participate, it is equal distribution. I pay the same amount of debt as the person from Tana River, who is labouring in back-breaking dust every single day, riding boda boda to make a living. Then out of that The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."},{"id":1545148,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1545148/?format=json","text_counter":198,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. Oketch Gicheru","speaker_title":"","speaker":null,"content":"dust, they must pay tax. They must pay an equal amount of money as other regions that have benefited from this debt. We must take control. We must not leave this debt management conversation to the National Treasury. We must take full control. I am very proud of our Members of the Standing Committee on Finance and Budget because they have been very engaged. You have seen them staying in this House as much as they can to contribute to this House. I have seen Sen. Ali Roba, the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Finance and Budget staying in this House till late hours, to give you a snippet of what is happening in this country. I have seen the Vice-Chairperson, Sen. Tabitha Mutinda, staying in this House till late hours, so that she can give you just an idea of what we are struggling with in the Standing Committee on Finance and Budget to make sense to the Cabinet Secretary for National Treasury and Economic Planning. I have seen Sen. (Dr.) Boni Khalwale staying in this House to give you just an idea of why we must manage this debt, so that my fellow county men, people from Masangora, Isebania, Komusoko Nyamosenza and Macalder, who do not understand this burden, why it must come to them can get reprieved. I hope that even as we pass this MDTS, the recommendations that have been forwarded by this amazing Standing Committee on Finance and Budget will not go in vain. We will not be confronted with the next MDTS that is brought to us based on our recommendations that were never adhered to. We cannot recommend that you go down on domestic borrowing; we cannot recommend that the Government goes down on fisical deficit that they have to bring down, and then the next year, we are confronted with an increased fiscal deficit and increased domestic borrowing without Parliament knowing that increased under our watch. That must stop as I support the Committee on Finance and Budget for coming up with this Report. I thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this particular Motion."},{"id":1545149,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1545149/?format=json","text_counter":199,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. Kathuri","speaker_title":"The Deputy Speaker","speaker":{"id":13590,"legal_name":"Murungi Kathuri","slug":"murungi-kathuri"},"content":" Well spoken. Sen. Onyonka Richard, you may proceed."},{"id":1545150,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1545150/?format=json","text_counter":200,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. Onyonka","speaker_title":"","speaker":{"id":13592,"legal_name":"Onyonka Richard Momoima","slug":"onyonka-richard-momoima"},"content":"Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. First of all, I would like to commend my colleagues who have articulated this issue as openly and as sincerely as we have been talking about it. I thank Sen. (Dr.) Oburu Odinga for acknowledging that even when the model of Public-Private-Partnership (PPP) has been accepted as the modus operandi of how we are going to run our projects in terms of investments and all that we are supposed to do, even when the PPP issue has been a hot topic in Kenya--- It is my hope and wish that, yes, let us adopt the PPP model, but let us make sure that we are transparent, accountable, fair and equitable in trying to distribute the resources over our country. Secondly, I want to thank my colleague, my young Senator, Sen. Eddy Oketch, one of the very able individuals in this House who has contributed quite a bit. I sit with him in the Standing Committee on Finance and Budget. I am proud of him. I am happy that he has raised quite some substantive issues, and many people may not see them. My leader, my friend, my brother, Sen. Okiya Omtatah, Kenya will vindicate you. You have consistently raised these issues even before I came to the Senate. Some of us did not understand the weightiness and the importance of raising this issue. Sen. Omtatah, The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."},{"id":1545151,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1545151/?format=json","text_counter":201,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Sen. Onyonka","speaker_title":"","speaker":{"id":13592,"legal_name":"Onyonka Richard Momoima","slug":"onyonka-richard-momoima"},"content":"thank you for noticing that we need to separate the Central Bank of Kenya and the National Treasury from the Executive. That is, in fact, one of the challenges that we are going to face as a Committee, and we are going to interrogate this. I also want to give credit to my brother, Sen. Mungatana. Thank you, Sir. Your experience and time have enabled you to analyze these issues impassionedly. I believe that what you have discussed will make Kenya a better place. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the public debt management issue in our country is at a crisis level. The reason I say this is because, we have been looking, analyzing and discussing, what the cost of our debt. Why do we borrow so much money? Why is it that, in the last 10 years, close to 12 years, we have increased our debt by 100 per cent? When President Kibaki was the President of the Republic of Kenya, our debt was, by the time he was leaving, Kshs1.1 trillion. After that period, and you look at where we are right now, our debt is close to Kshs12 trillion. The question that you ask when you sit in this House is, what is it that we need to do to make sure that this exercise, which I call an exercise in futility, where we are borrowing excessively, where we are borrowing domestically where the interest rates at which we are borrowing Government money is now at 12 to 16 per cent in some banks. Allegedly, one of the loans was borrowed at 18 per cent, yet, we can borrow money globally at the cost of two per cent. We can actually reschedule Kenya's debts. All our debts can be rescheduled. We can go to the international money market and borrow at interest rates between two and four per cent, and pay out all our stock of debt, and make sure we begin afresh. These are the issues that I would want the Committee and this House to look at. Secondly, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, there was a basic operating standard procedure on how we used our borrowed money. What did we do? The money would come, normally the rates at which we borrowed was at 30-70 per cent, as Sen. Eddie has said. Domestically, we would borrow at 30 per cent, because when you borrow domestically, borrowing in commercial banks becomes more expensive for the ordinary business person or Kenyan. The banks will also not want to lend to ordinary business people because of the cost of risk, the risk of where a commercial enterprise might borrow money and not deliver. So, commercial banks will prefer to trade in bills, bonds, and stocks. The Government is very comfortable with that because of what my brother, Sen. Eddy, and many other leaders here have talked about. When you go and negotiate with a commercial bank and you are borrowing a trillion shillings, and this commercial bank is actually giving you this money at a certain percentage, information and data gets to us where people in the Government will go and negotiate with some of these commercial banks, and they will even enable these commercial banks, after they have borrowed money for the Government, to allow the commercial bank to do overnight lending, where interest rates are undone. We never discussed these issues openly until recently when Sen. Okiya Omtatah started discussing them. Why do we borrow? Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we borrow because sometimes our budget has gaps. Previously, the Kenyan Government position, if you look at when Prof. George Saitoti was the Minister for Finance, come up to President Kibaki and move on, you will realize The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Director, Hansard and AudioServices, Senate."}]}