{"count":1608389,"next":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/?format=json&page=153244","previous":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/?format=json&page=153242","results":[{"id":1550622,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1550622/?format=json","text_counter":553,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Hon. Peter Kaluma","speaker_title":"The Temporary Speaker","speaker":{"id":1565,"legal_name":"George Peter Opondo Kaluma","slug":"george-peter-opondo-kaluma"},"content":" Hon. (Dr) Makali Mulu."},{"id":1550623,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1550623/?format=json","text_counter":554,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Kitui Central, WDM","speaker_title":"Hon. (Dr) Makali Mulu","speaker":null,"content":" Thank you very much, Hon. Temporary Speaker, for giving me this opportunity. I will start by appreciating my Chairperson, Hon. Atandi, and the Vice-Chairman for moving and seconding this important Bill. I will restrict myself to the issues in the Bill to save time for others. The Division of Revenue Bill is supposed to share revenue between the two levels of Government: the national Government and county governments. That is why I have reservations about why the Equalisation Fund appears in this Bill. It is purely about sharing revenue between the two levels of Government. However, we can live with the Equalisation Fund. It is additional information. There is no problem. The issue is sharing revenue. It means that the key factor in determining the whole Bill is revenue. I have concerns when I see that we are still discussing only certain approved accounts for the Financial Year 2020/2021 in this Bill. This means we are in arrears by three years. The revenue we are discussing is Ksh1.57 trillion. However, the last audited report currently puts national revenue at around Ksh2.8 trillion. We are already excluding about Ksh1.3 trillion from this important discussion. As a House, are we doing this deliberately? If we, as a House, are accused of a deliberate move to ensure we do not give counties money, shall we get out of this accusation? Even as we talk about the county governments, this House has a task to ensure that either we push the audited reports to only one-year arrears or remove the word \"approved\" and retain the word \"audited.\" If we go by the Auditor-General's report, I can tell you for sure that the accounts for the Financial Year 2023/2024 are already audited. If we exclude the word \"approved,\" we will discuss last year's revenue, which might improve the figures. The figures given by the National Treasury show that out of the revenue collected, we add Ksh17.6 billion. The Commission on Revenue Allocation (CRA) said we add Ksh30 billion. That is a difference of about Ksh12.4 billion, which we have not given to the counties. However, we know the economic situation. If we address some of the challenges we face as a country, we will help the county and national governments. The first one is costing of functions. Some of these functions were costed in 2013. A unit of electricity in 2013 compared to today has increased by more than four times, but we are still using the figures from 2013. As a House, can we discuss and ensure that all the devolved functions are costed? If I want to know how much it costs to provide healthcare to Mr Otieno in Homa Bay County, I can say it costs Ksh10,000. Then, I can multiply the population of Homa Bay by the unit cost and say that I require a certain number of millions to provide healthcare effectively. This will help us to identify the gaps. If we identify them, we can deliberately say that this year, we will not fund the health function 100 per cent, but we will fund 80 per cent, the following year 90 per cent and then 100 per cent in the third year. In that case, we will be helping our people in the provision of services. The other important component we must address is duplication of functions. The counties have said that the national Government is still clinging to many functions that should have been pushed to them. Most of the regional authorities perform devolved functions. How much money will we save if we agree that those functions be devolved and we do away with the administrative costs and recurrent expenditure of those authorities? In this The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor."},{"id":1550624,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1550624/?format=json","text_counter":555,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Kitui Central, WDM","speaker_title":"Hon. (Dr) Makali Mulu","speaker":null,"content":"case, we might get an additional Ksh10 billion or Ksh20 billion to push to the counties. This is another resource without increasing the revenue. We can push more resources to the counties by just doing a simple exercise of ensuring we minimise duplication of functions at the national and county levels. Hon. Temporary Speaker, the other important issue is a situation where we have non- discretionary expenditure. For example, in the last year, this House approved a number of taxes. We approved the Social Health Authority (SHA) at 2.57 per cent, and Housing Levy at 1.5 per cent. We allowed the increase of the National Social Security Fund (NSSF) by about Ksh6,000. These increases happened at the national level. Does it not make sense to ensure we provide budgets for the counties to cater for that expense because it is non-discretionary? They have no authority to say whether they can spend or not. It is a statutory requirement. As a result of our decisions at the national level, where we have increased expenditure for the counties and they have no choice other than to pay, it requires us to provide those resources. In that case, we will be helping the counties. The other important issue, Hon. Temporary Speaker, is that I remember the Cabinet Secretary of the National Treasury saying about two weeks ago that counties have a lot of money being held at the Central Bank of Kenya account. Some accounts have zero balances, while others have billions. I remember Kisii and two other counties have billions in the Central Bank of Kenya account. Nandi County has zero balance. We ask ourselves, is it not time we made operational the Treasury single account? This is so that if there is any government money anywhere, irrespective of the user, that money can be used by any other entity which requires money. That will reduce what we are facing. It will reduce public debt. It is very unfortunate that the Government of Kenya is borrowing its own revenue and paying interest on it when it should be using that money at zero interest. Why is that happening? It is because we have said we will not be able to make the Treasury Single Account operational. In that case, I always say that if you are a poor financial manager of your resources, you should not complain when you get broke because you are the one who is initiating the brokenness in you. In short, we may be unable to provide more resources to the counties. As we move to the future, can you look at some of these grey areas where, if we do slightly more work, we can help? We no longer have the Transitional Authority, which was transiting counties. However, we have the Commission on Revenue Allocation (CRA), a constitutional body staffed with serious researchers. Is it not time this House gave the CRA some timeframe and told them that within the next six months, even if it takes them hiring external support, we want all Government functions costed, then we can engage in serious debate? If we reach that level, we will not complain about resources. We will be talking about effective use of public resources. We will be talking about efficiency and effectiveness. With these many remarks, I support. Thank you so much for the time."},{"id":1550625,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1550625/?format=json","text_counter":556,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Hon. Peter Kaluma","speaker_title":"The Temporary Speaker","speaker":{"id":1565,"legal_name":"George Peter Opondo Kaluma","slug":"george-peter-opondo-kaluma"},"content":" Proceed, Hon. Naisula Lesuuda, on account of gender balance."},{"id":1550626,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1550626/?format=json","text_counter":557,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Samburu West, KANU","speaker_title":"Hon. Naisula Lesuuda","speaker":null,"content":" Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker. Although I do not think it is on that account alone. If anything, you should have started with me so I can rush home to the young babies. The men here, their wives, are already at home. I rise to support the Division of Revenue Bill 2025. I take this opportunity to congratulate my able Chairman, Hon. Samuel Atandi, who has taken the role of Chairperson of the Budget and Appropriations Committee. This, and a few others being his first assignment, has shown him to be a very capable Chairman and also the Vice Chairman, Hon. Pukose. Hon. Temporary Speaker, I have listened to my colleagues and do not want to be repetitive on most things they have discussed. Over time, we have continued to see dedication, as a country, to supporting devolution. If we look at the amounts allocated in the last Financial The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor."},{"id":1550627,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1550627/?format=json","text_counter":558,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Samburu West, KANU","speaker_title":"Hon. Naisula Lesuuda","speaker":null,"content":"Year, 2024/2025, and this financial year, there is an increase of Ksh17.6 billion, and it is an adjustment for revenue growth, which I must commend because devolution is very important to us as a nation. That is why it was passed overwhelmingly in the 2010 Constitution because every corner of this country then gets services and resources that go to the lowest level, which is our wards in the counties."},{"id":1550628,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1550628/?format=json","text_counter":559,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Samburu West, KANU","speaker_title":"Hon. Naisula Lesuuda","speaker":null,"content":"I hope that this time, in case there will be a mediation when this Bill goes to the Senate, there will not be much push and pull just for the sake of it or to look like a contest of who is supporting the county and who is not. It should be a matter guided by the facts presented before us. I must commend the Cabinet Secretary, Hon. Mbadi, who came before this Committee and presented to us the many factors that have led to the shareable revenue being the way it is. We cannot be a House of lamentations. We have to take over because every other time we have been discussing the Division of Revenue Allocation Bill, we have been talking about the last audited reports, yet it is this House that audits the reports. I think it is up to the leadership or one of us - I think I will take it up - so that the Chairperson of the relevant Committee can address themselves on this issue and tell us where the challenge is, and why we are not up to date with the audited accounts. Otherwise, it will just look like it is something that is done intentionally so that we are in the state we are in as a country. That is a question we must ask, and it should be answered in this House. We also cannot keep lamenting about the Equalisation Fund. We have to allocate money in this coming Budget to the Commission on Revenue Allocation (CRA) so that it can quickly fast-track the review of the second policy because now they will be working on the third policy. We cannot keep lamenting while that money for the Equalisation Fund does not serve the intent or purpose it was meant for. There is always this thing we have as a nation, that if so and so is getting this, I also have to get it without really understanding why or what the intent was. There was a whole reason why there were 14 counties, but now they have shot up to - I do not know how many - 47 counties? We have gone even to the lowest level, the ward and the sub-location, where we are putting Ksh1 to 2 million worth of projects while the whole intention of the Equalisation Fund was to move the marginalised 14 counties from where they are to reach the rest of the country. Do not forget that those same counties now receiving the Equalisation Fund are also getting their shareable funds, county allocations and projects. If you also check, those are the same counties that are getting more money in the national Budget. We can also not continue lamenting about the Equalisation Fund. The CRA has to be funded to fast-track the third policy that will revert this trend. We are not even going to suggest anything else and if, as a House, that will not happen, we can as well get rid of the Equalisation Fund. Because every time there is a debate about something, we are told that we have the equalisation Fund. We would rather not have it if it will not serve the intent it was meant to. The other thing we must look at is the whole issue of revenue collection by the Kenya Revenue Authority (KRA). Because this is based on projected revenues, the other day, we asked the Cabinet Secretary whether we are over-projecting as a country and what leads to the shortfalls. We have to know whether it is loopholes we have to seal, corruption at the KRA, or also if we are over-projecting. We have to be realistic about what we foresee collecting and work hard towards ensuring that we collect those funds so that we can see the numbers going up when we share the revenues. In conclusion, I also want to talk about the prudent use of these resources when they go to our counties. Those given responsibility at the county and national levels of Government should be true to Kenyans by ensuring that the money allocated serves the intended purposes. When a government receives all its allocations for a financial year, how does it have a pending bill? If you receive your entire Budget, pay what you have committed. Pending bills will cripple business people, county governments and even the national Government. You should not pay The electronic version of the Official Hansard Report is for information purposesonly. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor."},{"id":1550629,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1550629/?format=json","text_counter":560,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Samburu West, KANU","speaker_title":"Hon. Naisula Lesuuda","speaker":null,"content":"contractors selectively or refuse to pay those who no longer support you politically. We have to look at the issue of pending bills and enact tighter rules to ensure the bills are paid. With those very many remarks, Hon. Temporary Speaker, I support."},{"id":1550630,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1550630/?format=json","text_counter":561,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Hon. Peter Kaluma","speaker_title":"The Temporary Speaker","speaker":{"id":1565,"legal_name":"George Peter Opondo Kaluma","slug":"george-peter-opondo-kaluma"},"content":" Hon. Eckomas Mutuse."},{"id":1550631,"url":"http://info.mzalendo.com/api/v0.1/hansard/entries/1550631/?format=json","text_counter":562,"type":"speech","speaker_name":"Kibwezi West, MCCP","speaker_title":"Hon. Mwengi Mutuse","speaker":null,"content":" Thank you, Hon. Temporary Speaker, for the opportunity. First, I approached the Chair for priority to speak because I have an emergency, and you have acceded to my request. I thank you most specially. Second, I thank and congratulate the Budget and Appropriations Committee Chairperson, Hon. Samuel Atandi, for the good stewardship thus far. I was recently appointed to the Committee. Hon. Atandi and I come a long way. We knew each other when we were in university. He was at Egerton University while I was at the University of Nairobi. We participated in many public affairs. We were student leaders. Right from his youth, he had a lot of interest in public affairs and fairness. I have a lot of confidence in him chairing the Committee of the august House. Through him and the rest of the Members of that Committee, Kenya will see fairness in the distribution of resources. Allow me to delve a little bit into the historical path that has led us to where we are. Many Kenyans know that we went through a long period of struggle to pluralise our politics from one-party dictatorship and to agitate for constitutional reforms. The reasons for agitating for constitutional reforms were chiefly about two. One was to dismantle what had become the imperial presidency so that power could be shared and dispersed. The second was to dismantle the imperial presidency so that resources raised nationally would be fairly divided amongst different parts of this country and its communities. One of the most important things that happened to this country in 2010, having had many years of Independence, was the creation of two levels of Government so that vertical division of resources could be realised. The vertical division I refer to is a division of revenue between the national and county governments, the two levels of Government as they are known under the Constitution. I say this because there is a notion that has been created in the country that the National Assembly is opposed to devolution. Speaking to many Members of this august House, many of us support devolution as the number one thing that happened to this country, which is to equalise the sharing of resources. I therefore contribute in support of the Division of Revenue Bill because we support devolution and want it to last. One of the ways used in the ancient days to kill devolution was to deny devolved levels of government finances. I want to be on record that we will not be the Parliament that will deny our second level of government resources. Having said that, allow me to go to the constitutional basis upon which we tabled the Division of Revenue Bill."}]}