Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to ask the Minister of State for Special Programmes the following Question by Private Notice. (a) What is the status of general relief food distribution under the MOP/PRRO in the famine affected districts in Kenya? (b) What are the respective roles of District Steering Group, Kenya Food Security Steering Committee and Kenya Food Security Steering meetings in general food distribution? (c) Could the Minister provide (i) agreements between World Food Programme and Government of Kenya on General Food Distribution and School Feeding Programme (ii) agreement between WFP and respective lead agencies, Kenya Food Security steering meeting in general food distribution and (iii) details of the affected districts in the months of January and June, 2009 indicating the lead agency, general population, number of beneficiaries, percentage of beneficiaries to the general population, total food allocation, actual food disbursed per month in tonnage and bags since January, 2009? (d) Under what circumstances did the District Steering Groups change their respective lead agencies, particularly in the larger Pokot, East Pokot, Turkana Central and Kwale districts?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. The Assistant Minister has not furnished me with a copy of the written answer. Looking at the Question, I really need a written answer.
Mr. Assistant Minister, did you furnish the hon. Member with the answer?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, this Question was asked way back in July and the hon. Member and Dr. Shaban negotiated. I think they settled the issue outside the
Hon. Ethuro, would you like him to proceed or you would like to wait and get the written answer?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to have an answer before the Session ends. So, I have no problem with his desire to postpone it to tomorrow afternoon. But I just wish to qualify that there was no settlement out of the House.
All right! We are going to defer that Question.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, thank you very much. The answer is in his pigeon hole. He can go there and check.
Is hon. Mwakulegwa not here?
I have been informed by the Senior Deputy Clerk that hon. Mwakulegwa is out of the country on official matters. So, I will defer this Question to a later date.
Is hon. Anyangâa not here?
Let us wait a little bit and see whether the hon. Member will come.
Is Mr. Nyamai also not here? We shall wait a little bit for the hon. Member.
Is hon. Kioni not here?
Let us wait. But hon. Members should really be punctual, so that we do not defer Questions. Next Question by hon. Outa!
asked the Minister for Water and Irrigation:- (a) whether she could explain how the Food and Agricultural Organization (FAO) grants to West Kano and Ahero Irrigation Schemes worth Kshs.25 million each (totalling to Kshs.50 million) was utilized; (b) whether she could table the names of all the beneficiaries of the grant; and, (c) why the money was not given directly to the respective farmersâ co-operatives for proper accountability?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am wondering whether we are being aired live so that Kenyans can see our performance. This time round, it is not coming from the Ministers but the Back Bench. However, I beg to reply.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. This Question has been deferred three times. The Minister was here but the answer that she gave was in doubt.
Order! Mr. Assistant Minister, can you proceed?
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Let us hear what the Assistant Minister is going to say.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Am I improperly dressed? That is the only way I can be out of order. However, I beg to reply. (a) The Food and Agricultural Organization (FAO) provided support in the form of funds to the National Irrigation Board (NIB) amounting to Kshs3,150,000 that was used for land preparation in Bunyala Irrigation Scheme. Using the balance, FAO, through
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Like I had said earlier, this Question has been deferred three times and you could see that the Assistant Minister is giving me the same answer that he gave on the first day and even the second day. Today, being the third day, he is giving me the same answers which I refute totally; whatever he is giving here is not correct. We are talking about Kshs75 million that was given to the farmers. I said that whatever the report the Assistant Minister is giving here is incorrect. The Assistant Minister was ordered to come to the ground and meet the farmers and come up with a correct position on this matter---
Order! Order, hon. Outa! There is a point of order here by hon. Dr. Machage.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. If the hon. Member knew the answer to the Question, is it in order for him to ask that Question?
Hon. Outa, let us proceed. First of all, are you satisfied with the answer from the Assistant Minister?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am not satisfied with the answer. That is why I had a direction from the Chair and the Assistant Minister was ordered to come to the ground in order to verify the names appearing on this list---
Order, hon. Outa! With the answer that you have just received from the Assistant Minister, what part of that answer is not very clear?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, number one, he has not come to the ground. The farmers were given Kshs50 million, but he has not truly explained how that amount was really disbursed to the farmers. Secondly, the names that the Assistant Minister has circulated in this answer cannot be verified. That is why he was ordered to come to the ground and meet the farmers so that we can verify the names that they have indicated in this paper and get to know the beneficiaries. Up to this moment, my good friend---
Order! I think you are clear. Mr. Assistant Minister, can you respond?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is unfortunate because the hon. Member knows for sure â I was just trying to be very courteous to him because I do not see the reason why we should come here and try to destroy each other. First of all, he
Order, Mr. Assistant Minister! I think you are now out of the parameters of the Question. Can you stick to the answer and not relatives?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, we would like the hon. Member to declare his interest on this Question and then we can continue answering it. I have been courteous and I do not want to go into those depths. I am still willing not to go into the depth of it. Could the hon. Member declare his interest?
Hon. Outa, do you have any interest on this Question? Are you connected in any way to this Question?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have got no interest in this Question. I am a Member of Parliament for Nyando Constituency where people grow rice and I represent the farmers. I will speak for the farmers at any time when there is corruption in the area and especially when an amount worth Kshs75 million is being misused by your officers instead of benefiting the poor farmers. I will stand firm and I have got no interest all!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, first of all, you should realize that there is difference between the Ministry of Water and Irrigation, the National Irrigation Board (NIB) and the Food and Agricultural Organization (FAO). The FAO is not a branch of any Government. It is an organization and we have no control over them. The only funds that come to the Ministry of Water and Irrigation---
On a point Order Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is the Assistant Minister for Water and Irrigation in order? The Food and Agricultural Organization is a United Nations (UN) body and we, as a country, are members of the UN. So, the Assistant Minister cannot mislead the House that they are so helpless, desperate and that they cannot influence how FAO operates. Then why do you go into partnership with them?
Mr. Assistant Minister, hear me out. If you need additional time to prepare yourself to bring an adequate answer, then request as such. Are you happy with the answer?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am very happy with the answer. Can I explain before I request the House to take the necessary action? The FAO, as I have said is not under my Ministry and, therefore, the support that directly comes to my Ministry is what I can explain. I can explain the Kshs3,150,000 that they gave us directly. But the rest of the money, they gave in terms of fertilizer, equipment and so on. Therefore, if anybody wants to question whether they spent the Kshs50 million or Kshs75 million, they cannot question my Ministry. They should ask the right Ministry either the Ministry of Finance or Agriculture so that they can be investigated by whoever investigates those kinds of organizations. But my Ministry can only be responsible of what came to us. Lastly, for the avoidance of doubt, I would wish that this House directs the relevant departmental committee to investigate this matter because it is complex, so that
Hon. Outa, do you have any further clarification to request on this Question?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, this is a very serious matter and I want to be truthful to this House that I will pursue this matter to the breath and to the last strength of my life. The National Irrigation Board that falls under this Ministry of Water and Irrigation was given this money. If they were given money and they never distributed--- I would take your direction to refer this matter to the relevant committee so that they will be able to go underneath and reveal---
Order, hon. Outa! Again, I request you to be specific and state whether you are satisfied with the answer. Do not make a speech. Can you ask your final question and be specific? What information has the Assistant Minister not provided you with?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, number one is about the money. The Assistant Minister has denied that they were given money by the FAO. Instead of reporting Kshs50 million, he is giving an answer that they have only been given about Kshs3 million, while on the ground it is known that the FAO had given the NIB Kshs50 million to give to the farmers and they had signed an agreement.
We need to move to the next Question. Let us give the Assistant Minister a chance to give his closing remarks on this Question.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, as a Member of Parliament, I should carry myself with the dignity that is required of me and protect this Government. I said, clearly, that we received only Kshs1.3 million and using the balance, FAO, through my Ministry, directly procured and provided farm inputs to Bunyala, West Kano and Ahero irrigation schemes. The Director of FAO was categorical that he was not going to provide anything through West Kano Irrigation Scheme management. That is all. The answer I have given is the true position. We never received the Kshs50 million as the Ministry of Water and Irrigation and we had no control over the remaining amounts of money.
Thank you very much. We will rest it there. I think we have spent a lot of time on that Question. Let us move on to the next Question.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. This is a matter of national interest to the farmers of West Kano. You cannot, under your jurisdiction, just decide to move to another Question without the Assistant Minister being referred to the relevant departmental committee to investigate---
Order, hon. Outa! I have given you many chances to be specific. What is it that you are not satisfied with? I have given you a lot of opportunity and the Assistant Minister has answered you. That is all we can do. Anything beyond that can be followed using other channels. However, the Question has been answered fully.
asked the Minister for Water and Irrigation:-
(a) why the 75 families whose land was acquired by the Government in 1983 for the construction of Manooni Dam in Kakutha Location, Nzaui District have not been compensated; and,
(b) when they will be compensated.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) Manooni Dam was constructed between 1984 and 1987 with funding by the European Union (EU) through the Machakos Integrated Development Programme (MIDP). The Government undertook to provide land for the dam. In 1983, representatives of 75 families affected by Manooni Dam signed an agreement with the MIDP giving their consent for project implementation and extinguishing their rights to claim any compensation from either MIDP or from my Ministry. The signing of consent documents was witnessed by the Provincial Administration. The agreement had an inclusion clause which clearly stated that land or crop compensation issue, if any, was to be dealt with separately by the local project committee. In 1985, the land affected by the dam was surveyed by the Lands Department and the people affected by the project were identified. The Agricultural Department valued the total cost of crops to Kshs646,770.
(b) The land compensation cannot be carried out due to the reasons that I have given to the House. Further, my Ministry plans to rehabilitate and augment Manooni Dam and provide sufficient water to the communities living upstream.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. The answer given by the Assistant Minister begs a number of clarifications. From the Assistant Ministerâs answer, he has said that the Ministry would undertake to provide land. He has further said that in 1983, some people purporting to be the representatives of the 75 families signed a document purporting that it was an agreement that gave that land to the Government for free. The Assistant Minister has also said that in 1985, the land was surveyed. That is when the owners of that land were identified. Is the Assistant Minister telling us the truth when he says that some people purporting to be the owners of the land signed an agreement in 1983 when, in fact, the owners of the land were identified in 1985? Could the Assistant Minister clarify that issue and also lay on the Table the document that is showing the legality and constitutional basis under which the agreement was signed?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am not ready to lay the document on the Table because the Questioner did not ask me to do that. However, if he wishes that I lay it on the Table, I can do it at a later stage. However, the most important thing is to see whether the hon. Member has a concern that would require a proper answer. The truth of the matter is that the farmers had extinguished their rights by signing that agreement. However, in 1985, two years later---
Order, Mr. Assistant minister! Are you saying that there are no plans to compensate them?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, that is where I am heading to. Between 1983 and 1984, they extinguished their rights by signing that agreement. However, you can see that it was very inhuman because, at the end of the day, they were removed from their farms and they have not been settled. The DDC sat down in 1985 and it was agreed that those farmers be compensated. So, that is where you should follow the issue from. The hon. Member can follow up the matter with the Ministry of Lands and the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister and Ministry of Finance because they are the ones who deal with compensation. Otherwise, my Ministry is ready to support the farmers so that they do not interfere with the running of the dam.
Hon. Kiilu, are you satisfied that you need to pursue the issue of compensation with the Ministry of Lands?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Government undertook to provide land. Under normal circumstances, when the Government has no land, it undertakes to procure some land using the legal provisions - the Compulsory Land Acquisition Act. Why did the Assistant Minister find it suitable not to follow that procedure but, instead, used the Provincial Administration to sign a land agreement with people who had not been identified as the real owners of the land? So, I am not satisfied.
Fine, Mr. Kiilu! But you are now dealing with the Ministry of Water and Irrigation. Can they really pursue the matter? Is it not the Ministry of Lands which is responsible?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Ministry of Water and Irrigation was the client. It is the one which looked for the land and not the Ministry of Lands. It should have gone to the Ministry of Lands and said that it had identified the land and sought the assistance to value the land and make compensation.
Mr. Assistant Minister, could you make that undertaking so that we can close this issue?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, an individual owner of a property or community can donate land or property for social use that benefits everyone. We have not looked at the circumstances that made those people to extinguish their rights then. As you can see, coming from Ukambani, probably there was a need for the dam to provide water. In fact, circumstances changed a year later after they realized that they could be compensated. That is why they were compensated for the crops. But they were not compensated for the land.
However, they have a right to be compensated. That is why I am advising the hon. Member to follow the right channels because if he presses the Ministry of Water and Irrigation, which is not in charge of settlement, he will not go very far. However, if he can pursue the matter with the Ministry of Lands and the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance, we will be ready to give evidence and say that they deserve to be paid after what happened.
I, politely, urge the hon. Member to pursue the matter through the Ministry of Lands and the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance and we will support him.
Mr. Kiilu, are you happy with that direction?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, while I have heard what the Assistant Minister has said, I still want to pursue this matter. You will remember that it is
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I have been listening to the questions and answers. I think the law is very clear. The Compulsory Acquisition Act says that the Government is under obligation to compensate those farmers if it dispossesses them of their land in order to do a water project. That is the law. It does not matter whether it is the Ministry of Water and Irrigation or the Ministry of Lands. The Ministry of Water and Irrigation has the responsibility to start the necessary negotiations to compensate those farmers. I think the Assistant Minister owes this House an explanation, more importantly, because they have a collective responsibility to the House on behalf of the Executive.
Mr. Assistant Minister, make your final comment on that.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have clearly said that the circumstances at that time could have made those farmers to donate their land. They needed the water more and, therefore, they relinquished their rights. However, a year later, they realised that they could have got something and they went to the District Development Committee (DDC). My advice is that the hon. Member should go and take the minutes of the DDC of 1985, and since he was in the Provincial Administration, he can readily get them. The DDC recommended that they be settled in Kibwezi Settlement Scheme. The DDC meeting held on 4th October, 1985 recommended that the land owners affected by the project be compensated by allocating them land in settlement schemes either in Kibwezi or elsewhere.
Order, Mr. Assistant Minister! There is no vacant land in Kibwezi to settle them. So, where would you settle them?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, maybe, there was a vacant land at that time. Those are the minutes, of the DDC. With those minutes the hon. Member can follow up the matter with the Ministry of Lands.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Assistant Minister has finally accepted that there was an agreement to compensate the 75 families by allocating them land elsewhere. Why has the Ministry not done that 25 years down the line?
After the Assistant Ministerâs response the matter should rest there.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, as you know the Government has many Ministries. We have the Ministry of Water and Irrigation, the Ministry of Livestock Development and others. Now that this matter falls under the Ministry of Lands, all that we can do is to offer assistance to the Member of Parliament so that he can pursue it through that Ministry. I believe that those families have a case and should be compensated.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. This is a Government that accuses Parliament of being dictatorial. When the DDC made a decision
Mr. Assistant Minister, has your Government done all it can to handle this issue?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, you know that my Government has been in power for the last seven years and we are talking about over 20 years. There must have been another Government that was not responsible but this Government is very responsible because it has taken this matter very seriously. We will make sure that those farmers are settled. I have not, at any time, said that we will not settle them because it will be very inhuman of the Government. I have consistently said that we can compensate those families through the right channel. Which Ministry should the hon. Member direct this Question to? I advice him to channel it to the Ministry of Lands whose Minister is Mr. James Orengo.
Let us rest the matter there.
Let us move on to the next Question by Mr. Litole!
asked the Minister for Roads what became of the proposal made to the Ministry by the Nyando District Roads Board to re- classify several roads in the district from class D to C.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply.
The Ministry of Roads contracted Carl Bro and Associates in association with Gulf Construction Engineers to carry out a re-classification of the road network throughout the country and undertake a road inventory and condition survey on unclassified roads.
The consultant commenced work on 4th December, 2006 and currently all road networks have been re-classified and the consultant will present the report to the Ministry mid this month. The proposal made by the Nyando District Roads Board will definitely be amongst the considerations in the report.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the answer given by the Minister is just too general. My Question was very specific because it only touched on the roads that are in Nyando District. Could the Assistant Minister inform this House the roads in Nyando District that are undergoing the re-classification exercise?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I appreciate the specificity in which the hon. Member wanted to know about his area, but I also used the Floor to pass the information to all the Members of this House that not only have I picked on Nyando District for re-classification of roads but also considered the whole of Kenya.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, since the Ministry will re- classify all the roads in the country, has it also developed a blueprint showing exactly when those roads will be upgraded to bitumen standards?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I will table in this House the orders of priority on the bitumization of the roads in this country soon. I believe those reports will come more or less at the same time.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, when the Assistant Minister talks about Nyando District, is he talking about the greater Nyando District? Nyando District has now been split into three districts. We have Nyakach, Muhuroni and Nyando districts.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I share the concerns of the hon. Member about the new districts. I also have new districts in my constituency. I always say the new Draft Constitution should recognise the new districts. No Districts! No Constitution! The relevance of that is important to me and him. The old Nyando District is my reference.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, what is the Ministryâs plan in making sure that the proposals which are given for areas like Eastleigh become a reality.
Hon. Minister, are you prepared to answer that one?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, let me answer it. My plan is to give this House my budget for approval so that I can realise the hon. Memberâs dreams.
Hon. Ochieng, ask your final question.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the exercise of the classifications of these roads was given to a private body. The contract was given in 2006. It is now three years down the line. Is it normal for this exercise to take this long?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I gave this contractor 25 months to carry out the exercise. However, they have taken a little bit long. I am getting the report this month. I also had to get a proper report to the satisfaction of the Member. I think it was worth waiting for. Mid this month is only a few days away. You can also bring back this Question in another form, maybe, next year and I will answer it.
asked the Minister of State for National Heritage:-
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) To date, there are no historical sites that have been gazette in North Eastern Province. The problem has been that most of the sites do not have land registration numbers which are required before a property is gazetted as national monument. (b) We have begun the process of gazetting Orahey wells to get around this problem. The National Museums of Kenya has begun the process of obtaining a title deed of Orahey wells. Shallete, Shidle and Hoko wells in Wajir town have previously not been identified as significant sites either by the community or researchers who have worked in North Eastern Province. Therefore, they have not been gazetted as national monuments. The sites are now managed by the Ministry of Water and Irrigation through the Water Resources Management Authority. There are no signs of development or any development or any water management exercise that has taken place at the Shallete wells and they are currently in their natural state. However, if the nominated hon. Member of Parliament feels that the wells are of historical value, my Ministry could assist in gazettng these sites.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I strongly feel that these wells are of historical value.
I want the Minister to know that these wells have been utilized by the local communities since the 1840s before this country became Independent. I am happy that Orahey wells which were established in the early 1980s are in the process of being gazetted as a national monument. The Minister has said that the whole of the province has no site which has been gazetted as a national monument. Yet there are very many sites. The responsibility lies with the Minister himself to indentify and gazette these sites.
Now he has already established a way to go round the problem. This is a collective responsibility. If the Minister for Lands has failed to register us, the Minister for National Heritage must not follow suit because these sites are quite important. There are four communities who have used these wells. For the benefit of the Minister; the Makabu, Bahgeri, Gerri and Mohamed Zubeir communities are all established residents in Wajir town since the country became Independent. Finally, I want to know whether he has instructed his officers following my inquiry because I want these wells to be recognized as state monuments. Has he already instructed his officers to start the process of gazetting them as national monuments because they are important?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, this is normally done by my Ministry in conjunction with the community and other local leaders, including the Government officials in the District of Wajir, Land Adjudication and Water Officers. But most importantly, we listen to the community. If the community can come out and set aside this particular area and recognize it as something that is important for their own heritage, then we would do the gazettement.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, in pursuit of that Question, could the Minister tell this House the plans he has for improvement and repair of the
Mr. Minister, are you prepared to answer that Question? It seems to be out of order.
Yes. I hope the hon. Member is not referring to the Njuri Ncheke Museum.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I mean Meru Town Museum.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, we are prepared to go round and improve all these museums for the benefit of the people and the nation. As you know, we have already given some money to the Njuri Ncheke Museum; a group of people whom we recognize as some of the most important people before Independence and now. I think we can come down to the Meru one and many others.
I wish to say very clearly that we lack finances in doing these things as much we would really want to build up all these heritages, monuments and culture of the people. We are beginning to realize that it is so important for this nation.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to thank the Minister because he has already given an undertaking that this will be done.
However, he said that the current sites I am talking about are managed by the Ministry of Water and Irrigation. The Government has grabbed this land from the community by force without any reference to them. They have established a water facility while they could have done that elsewhere. Could he, therefore, give an undertaking that, first of all, they will liaise with the relevant Ministry that has displaced the community from its original site?
Secondly and more importantly, whether he will accept a petition from the respective communities to his office and then begin the process? We can organize thousands of them to come all the way from Wajir to the Ministry headquarters in order to submit the petition to him.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to tell the hon. Member that my Ministry has not grabbed any land at all for water, for example. However, if, as he says, the Government had acquired the land through the normal process of land acquisition, then I think he should try and investigate that one before we go there. However, I can assure him that if the community, the Government and the experts in the Ministry of Heritage and Culture establish that this is an important monument for the nation, we will do our best to try and gazette and protect it from being grabbed by some land grabbers, who are, these days found everywhere in this country.
All right! Fair enough and very good. On Question No.486 by hon. Musikari Kombo, I would like to inform the House that he is out of the country on official matters. So, we are going to defer it to a later date.
asked the Minister for Medical Services:-
(a) If he is aware that his Ministry has not posted a medical doctor to Marsabit North District, four years after the district was established; and,
(b) what immediate action he will take to ensure that a medical doctor is posted to Marsabit North District.
Is the Minister for Medical Services here? He is not around. Let us defer this Question to a later date.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Hon. Chachu, the Minister is not here and we want to be fair by giving him some time. However, what is your point of order?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have lost 12 people in the last one month to cholera in North Horr Constituency. Today, there are about seven who are hospitalized. This situation is critical for the health and wellbeing of my people. I want, if possible, this Question to be answered this afternoon or tomorrow.
That is fair enough. We will try to find the earliest possible time, so that we can deal with that Question; we are sorry for what is happening out there in your constituency.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I do not wish to challenge the Chair, but, surely, if the hon. Member of Parliament is saying that in Marsabit North Hospital, patients are dying of cholera and there are no doctors, you cannot possibly say that the matter will come up at a later date. It should come up this afternoon.
Order! I said at the earliest possible time, and that could be even this afternoon. The Minister is not here and I think I am fair enough.
This Question is by hon. Anyanga! I am informed that hon. Anyanga is out of the country on an official matter. His Question is, therefore, deferred.
Next Question by hon. Nyamai!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I apologise for coming late. It was because of reasons beyond my control.
asked the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security:- (a) to provide a list of the doctors authorised to sign a Kenya Police Medical Examination Form (P3) in each of the provinces; and, (b) what urgent steps he is taking to ensure that there is an increase in the number of doctors authorised to sign the forms nationwide.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply
(a) There are no specific doctors authorised to sign Kenya Police Medical Examination Forms. Medical reports are signed by medical officers found in any medical institution, preferably public hospitals, as per the requirements of the Evidence Act, Chapter 80 of the Laws of Kenya, Section 48, which states in part, and I wish to quote:-
âWhen the court has to form an opinion upon a point of foreign law, or of science or art, or as to identify or genuineness of handwriting or finger, or other impressions, opinions upon that point are admissible if made by persons specially skilled in such foreign law, science or art, or in questions as to identify or genuineness of handwriting or finger or other impressions.â Police Medical Report Forms, generally referred to as P3 Forms, are a creation of the Kenya Police Standing Orders. These are administrative orders issued or created by the Commissioner of Police under powers vested in him by the Police Act, Chapter 84 of the Laws of Kenya, Section 5, which states, also in part that:-
âThe Commissioner of Police may issue administrative orders to be called âForce Standing Ordersâ, not inconsistent with the Constitution or provisions of this Act or of any regulations made thereunder, for the general control, direction and information of the Forceâ.
The P3 forms are just standard forms used for medical reports for ease of reference both by doctors and courts. These can be signed by any medical officer who is also allowed to give medical evidence in court.
(b) The Government does not intend to increase the number of such doctors because there are adequate numbers of doctors in public medical institutions, who are qualified and authorised by law to sign such medical forms.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, as much I would like to thank the Assistant Minister for his answer, it is apparent that he is living in a different world from the one I am living in. I am talking particularly of Nairobi. In Nairobi, there is only
Mr. Assistant Minister, do you have any plans to increase the number of doctors?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have said that all medical doctors are allowed to sign these P3 Forms. It has just been a perception that one particular medical doctor signs the P3 Forms. I want to assure Members of Parliament here that all medical doctors from the public institutions are supposed to sign those forms.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to agree with the Assistant Minister that all qualified doctors are permitted to sign these forms, but I know for a fact that the reason why doctors do not want to sign these forms, is because upon signing these forms, and you are transferred from your former station, you may be expected to appear in court, say, in Kakamega and currently you are in Machakos. If you fail to appear in court, because the Government has not made transport arrangements for you, the court is free to issue arrest warrants against these doctors. So, doctors then choose to refuse to sign the forms. The question is: What arrangements are you making to set aside a special allowance for doctors who sign these forms for purposes of night out and travelling?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, you are aware that I cannot set aside money in My Ministry for purposes of signing this document. I think that can be done by the Ministry of Medical Services. If they want their doctors to attend court proceedings, then it is their obligation to provide some allowances to be given to doctors who are actually transferred to go and give evidence in court.
Fair enough! Hon. Nyamai, are you satisfied?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am not satisfied, because listening to what the Assistant Minister has said, he has thrown the issue back to the Ministry of Medical Services, yet we are talking of one government. Effectively, he has only told us that Kenyans will not be able to access justice; P3 Forms are quite important in accessing justice. Under the circumstances, could he inform us what the Government is doing to ensure that Kenyans access justice?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Government will make sure that doctors sign the P3 forms without delay. The Government will equally make sure that those doctors who are supposed to give evidence in court attend court promptly. That is an assurance from the Government.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. There is a question you have just deferred about a district known as North Horr, which does not have a medical doctor. The Assistant Minister says that the P3 forms must be signed by a doctor. Where do you expect residents of North Horr to get the doctor from and yet they have no doctor?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, that looks like an isolated case because all districts have medical doctors. If there is one isolated case, arrangements will
In that case, Mr. Assistant Minister, does it mean that you are going to make a provision to provide qualified medical doctors who can sign those P3 forms to remote or rural areas which have no medical doctors?
Yes, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. We will definitely provide solutions to this. That is why I said that, that was an isolated case.
All right. Let the matter rest there! Let us proceed to Question No.197.
Is hon. Jeremiah Kioni in the House now? Is he here now? We have given him more than an hour to get to the Chamber.
Next by hon. Litole! Is he now in the Chamber? Hon. Ethuro, I think you are taking that undertaking?
on behalf of
asked the Minister for Energy:- (a) whether he could consider replacing posts and supplying electricity to Morpus Primary School, Morpus Girls Secondary School (under construction) and Morpus Trading Centre; and, (b) when he will also supply electricity to Orolwo Centre and Samor Primary School, which are on the main road to Lodwar.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. (a) My Ministry has finalized plans to supply electricity to Morpus Primary School and Morpus Trading Centre in the current Financial Year, 2009/2010. Morpus Girls Secondary School will be considered for supply once the construction of the school has been completed. (b) Orolwo Centre and Samor Primary School will also be supplied with electricity this financial year as these are the priority projects which were given by the hon. Member of Parliament. The first case of Morpus Trading Centre was passed on the
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I wish to thank the Assistant Minister for being considerate because those of us who live at the border of the Turkwel Gorge which supplies 106 megawatts of electricity to the national grid have not been beneficiaries of this good facility for a long time. Morpus Primary School, Morpus Girls Secondary School and Morpus Trading Centre need electricity in order to develop these - not God-forsaken â but Government- forsaken areas. Could he give an undertaking to the House that the financial year he is talking about is the one ending June 2010 and that before June of 2010, preferably maybe January, these secondary schools and all the centres will be able to get electricity? How about the posts?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to confirm to the hon. Member that it will be done by June this year. In fact the transformer will be installed by January. The others, as I am talking right now are on survey and the design works are almost complete. So, I am certain that by June, it will be over. With regard to the first one, I am guaranteeing that even by January, it should be installed. The second one may be done even before June.
Are you satisfied, hon. Ethuro?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am very satisfied. But as the English say, the taste of the pudding is in the eating. So, by June, next year, I hope and assume that I will be a satisfied man. However, given that he has extended electricity from Turkwel Gorge to Ortum, what plans does the Assistant Minister have to extend the same electricity from Turkwel Gorge to Lodwar?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, we are trying to extend the grid as much as possible to areas which had been left behind. So, I want to assure the hon. Member that we are working on that. We are providing the areas that are off grid with solar systems. For Lodwar, we are going to work on that.
All right. We will rest the Questions now. Next Order!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I wish to ask for an urgent Ministerial Statement from the Minister of State for Provincial Administration and Internal Security on the weaponry that was intercepted and seized in Narok Town yesterday morning and one suspect arrested. This is a very, very crucial matter and it should be treated with the seriousness it deserves. In the Statement, I wish the Minister to clarify the following; first, the origin and the make of all the assorted cache of weapons that were seized and the intended destination of the same. I also want him to clarify the usage of the same.
Mr. Assistant Minister, could you, please, give an undertaking? Which is the earliest possible time you can do that?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is true that it is a serious and sensitive issue. I want to assure Kenyans that we are safe. I will issue this Statement tomorrow in the afternoon without any failure.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I said that this is a very serious matter. Because of what is happening out there, this matter has generated a lot of fear within communities. It is a matter the Government should address as early as possible. They had the whole day yesterday with the suspects and I believe that they now have some information which is relevant to Kenyans. It would be fine if this issue could be addressed this afternoon because there is a lot of anxiety out there on this matter. We should not allow anymore delays. If the Government has information, even if it is preliminary, that will help to ease the fear and tension that is building out there.
Mr. Ojode, are you in a position to issue the Statement this afternoon?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would request that you allow me to arrest some two more suspects today. Let me deal with this issue tomorrow in the afternoon.
Fair enough. Tomorrow afternoon.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, three weeks ago, I sought a Ministerial Statement from the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance regarding some accounts of the Kenya Government that had ostensibly been frozen through a court order in London. There has been no word from the Ministry. I do not know what I am expected to do and yet the matter was an urgent one. It was in the national interest, but I have received no response.
Mr. Assistant Minister, you can give an undertaking on behalf of the two Ministers.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I undertake to inform the respective Ministers about the Ministerial Statements that have been sought. So, by tomorrow, Thursday, at least, they will act on the Ministerial Statements.
You give an undertaking on the one sought from the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Finance only. I am being informed here by the Clerk-at-the-Table that the Statement sought from Ministry of State for Immigration and Registration of Persons was dealt with on 18th November, 2009.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Regarding that, the Minister gave a commitment that within a week after that Statement was issued, the exercise would begin. Nothing has happened so far. So, I sought a Statement from him as to why nothing has happened even after the Minister had given an undertaking.
That is implementation now. The matter was dealt with on 18th November, 2009. Let us wait for the implementation.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, but what happens in a situation where a Minister gives an undertaking to the House and nothing happens?
Order, Mr. Affey! There is a committee dealing with implementation procedures. Mr. Mwakwere has a Ministerial Statement to make.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I wish to make a Ministerial Statement on amendments to the traffic regulations. The Government is committed to improving the transport sector which is key for development and prosperity. In this endeavor, the enhancement of road safety in the country is crucial to avert road traffic accidents, deaths and injuries. It will also minimize the economic loss and the negative social impacts resulting from road accidents. Reports from hospitals across the country indicate that motorcycle related accidents are on the rise. In view of this and in exercise of the powers conferred by Section 119 of the Traffic Act, I, Chirau Mwakwere, the Minister for Transport of the Republic of Kenya, through Gazette Notice No.173 of 2nd December, 2009, have decided to legislate new regulations introducing safety measures in the use of motorcycles and made amendments to other rules in the Traffic Act to further enhance road safety standards in the country. While legislating these rules, I have taken into account that many Kenyans in urban and rural areas of the country earn livelihoods out of transport businesses with the motorcycles commonly known as boda boda . Apart from inculcating consciousness amongst riders and passengers, the new rules are intended to minimize injuries and possible deaths for both motorists and passengers in the event of an accident. The new rules now make it mandatory for operators of motorcycles and passengers to wear a helmet and a jacket that has reflectors. A motorcyclist will only
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to thank the Minister for coming up with these new rules. However, I have a fear because the previous Minister for Transport, Mr. Michuki, gazetted various rules, but as I talk now, those rules are not being followed. I want to get an assurance from the Minister. How sure is he that these rules he has gazetted will be complied with? Secondly, he has indicated that he has gazetted new rules on motorcycles. We know that there are so many motorcycles in this country which are being used as bodabodas. When does he expect the motorcycle owners to adhere to this issue of helmets and jackets? When does he expect it to start? Is it immediately or there is a window for waiting?
Mr. Minister, please, proceed.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to assure hon. Members, and particularly, hon. Were, that these rules will be enforced as stated. If anyone of you would like to try me, let him or her ride a motorcycle without putting on helmet. I will have you arrested and fined Kshs5,000 or jailed for a period not exceeding five months. These rules will be enforced strictly and seriously. Right now, we have an increase in the number of people being admitted to hospital across the country as a result of injuries sustained from road accidents, particularly on motorcycles. In fact, accident victims involving motorcycles are the majority of patients in some urban and peri-urban hospitals. Secondly, these rules take effect immediately because all motorcycle owners already have helmets. It is just that they do not put them on. They must wear them. They
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, could the Minister tell us why when motorcycles are arrested, they are loaded onto breakdown vehicles and taken to police stations? We all know breakdown services are very expensive. A motorcycle can be driven to a police station on its own without engaging the breakdown services. Why do the police use one breakdown vehicle for each motorcycle?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I will only respond as a Government Minister, but that is a question that ought to be directed to the relevant Ministry, and not to the Ministry of Transport.
They use breakdown vehicles as the most convenient way of moving motorcycles that are not roadworthy to police stations.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to request the Minister that it would have been nice if he had tabled these new rules in the House, so that we could enrich them with debate, but now that he has moved, we will support him. However, why has he not found it necessary to also insist that besides the cyclist having a helmet for himself, he should also have a spare helmet for his passenger?
Secondly, you have also directed that a cyclist will be allowed to carry only one passenger at a time. How about passengers who are accompanied by minors?
Finally, what are you doing about matatu that show pornographic films in Nairobi?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I agree that I should have tabled the rules. It was an oversight. With your permission, I now table them.
Minors may be carried by the passenger because, by definition, in all transport modes, minors and the persons carrying them are taken as one, for purposes of travel. On an aircraft, a minor is taken as part of the passenger who is carrying that minor. However, we are talking of those minors who cannot walk, who must be carried. That is acceptable.
Helmets must be won by both passenger and rider. Details relating to this aspect appear in the Legal Notice.
Mr. Minister, on the question raised by Dr. Khalwale, there are cases where two or three passengers are carried on one motorcycle.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, as I said earlier, it is illegal. They are now allowed to carry only one passenger at a time. This requirement appears in both my Ministerial Statement and the Legal Notice.
What about the issue of matatu in Nairobi showing pornographic videos?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, on the issue of pornographic videos being shown in matatu, I did not make an immediate response because I am ready to issue a Ministerial Statement on the same and give details on the actions we are taking. With your permission, I would like to restrict myself to the Legal Notice that I was expounding on.
Fair enough! Yes, hon. Mbadi?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Minister talked about minors being considered as part of the passenger. Does he mean âminorsâ or âinfantsâ? Some minors are very big for them to be considered part of the main passenger.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I said very clearly that minors in this case are those persons who cannot walk on their own or infants. The word âminorâ as used also incorporates infants.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Minister has prescribed the fines and penalties for flouting the new rules. We know that we have a lot of young
operators who are operating the motorcycles on higher purchase system. When they are arrested, and their motorcycles are confiscated for a whole day, they end up losing the motorcycles. Could he consider, in prescribing the penalties, introducing on-the-spot fine payment system, so that offenders can pay on the spot without having their motorcycles confiscated?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, that is a very good suggestion. We can operationalize such system once we have the new generation driving licences. For now, it is not possible to work out a fool-proof system of dealing with the administration of instant fines. So, please, bear with us. We are in the process of coming up with a new generation driving licence that will be based on the electronic smart card system, which will make it possible for fines to be paid on the spot.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.
What is it, hon. Milly Odhiambo?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, is the Minister in order to be treating children of whatever age as part of adults? That is not only discriminatory, but actually provides for insecurity for children, because they can be harmed if they are not treated separately. All other countries treat children of whatever ages as separate entities. Is he in order to treat children as part of adult human beings?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, that is the hon. Memberâs opinion. I said âfor purposes of travel onlyâ and added that for other purposes, the definition is different, and regulations vary.
Hon. Members, let that matter rest. Are there any other Ministerial Statements?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I promised this House to deliver three Ministerial Statements this morning, starting with the one sought by Mr. Olago Aluoch.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Assistant Minister has just confirmed to us that there is no known organized illegal group in the area. He, however, went ahead to say that there is an organized group that is collecting some illegal money, could he substantiate this?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I said and want to confirm that there are those who collect some fees from changâaa brewers and those who supply electricity through illegal connections. There are those who also ask for money for supply of water. Already, we have arrested about eight people who are in this illegal business. Some have been arraigned in court and we are still zeroing in on the masterminds of this illegal trade. I think it has been scaled down and no further payment of illegal fees will be allowed by this Government. I want to assure the residents of Mathare 3C that they are not supposed to pay any person any money unless they produce certificates or licences given by the Nairobi City Council (NCC) or the Kenya Power and Lighting Company (KPLC) Ltd.
Alright. Is there any other Ministerial Statement?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I wish to give another Ministerial Statement which was sought by Mr. Silas Ruteere. On 2nd December 2009, Mr. Silas Ruteere the Member of Parliament for North Imenti stood on a point of order to seek a Ministerial Statement on measures to contain cattle rustling in Buuri District. I wish to say the following:
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I commend the Assistant Minister for the action they have taken. I do appreciate that the action was timely. However, I wish to differ with him on two issues, one being the cause of shooting, of the three young men. There was cattle rustling on the night of 29th November, and 100 head of cattle and 200 sheep and goats were stolen. Residents called upon the Anti-Stock Theft Unit (ASTU) to respond to their distress calls to follow the cattle rustlers who were armed to the teeth. The innocent people whose cattle were stolen could not defend themselves. Instead of the ASTU) answering to the distress call, they chased wananchi away. That night, the whole road was blocked with stones by angered residents. The following morning, they went to ask the ASTU officers why they did not answer to their distress
The hon. Member has mentioned here that there were unruly fellows on the road. There were goons on that road, and I would want to ask Kenyans not to take law into their own hands. If there is anything bad happening, I urge Kenyans to report it to the nearest police station. I agree with some of the statements which he has made. As we speak, an inquiry has already been opened. We are investigating the matter and if there is any wrong-doing on the part of the police officers, we will take action. But you have to realize also that if you have a number of goons blocking a road, and they want to burn an ASTU vehicle, as well as to burn a bus with 61 passengers, my police officers must use fire arms. Cap. 28, of the Police Act, Section 28, allowed the police officers to use firearms, if circumstances so dictated, to save the lives of 61 people together with the others in the other vehicles. I would want to inform Mr. Ruteere that he should educate his people not to take law into their own hands and occasion loss of innocent lives.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for the Assistant Minister to mislead the House as to the incidents where a police officer can use a firearm? According to the Police Act, it is when his life is threatened and when he is confining or keeping a suspect in custody, who is being removed forcefully. Did these circumstances apply in this case to justify the use of the firearms?
The hon. Member is a lawyer and knows that the Police, Act Cap. 28, says clearly that if the police feel that there is justified need for using firearms in order to restore sanity, they can go ahead. I would further urge my colleague that his people should not allow goons to take over public roads or their administration. It is important to educate our people that if there is any problem they should report it to the Provincial Administration officers or to the police. They should not take the law into their own hands.
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is the Assistant Minister telling us that those who were shot at in December in Kisumu numbering over 47 were goons and were justifiably shot?
But Mr. Shakeel you are introducing a totally different topic.
No! Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is the same. He is the one who has raised the point about justifiable use of firearms. I did not bring it up.
No! You are introducing another topic. Hon. Assistant Minister could you respond on that?
If Mr. Shakeel wants to bring a specific Question pertaining to this, I will be able to reply to it.
It is the issue of under what circumstances a police officer is justified to use a firearm against the citizen. It is a very serious issue.
If the police officerâs life is in danger, that is one instance. He is aware of this because he is a lawyer. In fact, he is the one who should have helped some of his colleagues. In this particular case, my police officersâ lives were in danger, because we had goons on the road stoning any vehicle on the left and right sides. If it were you, what would you have done? Would you have left them to kill each other?
Stones were placed on this road during the night. How could vehicles travel from Isiolo to Maili Saba when there were stones all over? Even for my access to that place, these people had to clear the road for me. Where the vehicles---
We had to bring in the ASTU and other police officers to clear the road for him and also to guard him. He is right. Who cleared the road for him?
Order Mr. Ruteere! We have to do this thing in the fairest way. Mr. Assistant Minister, are you through with your submission?
I have got the last statement. The last Ministerial Statement was sought by---
Order! Let us dispose of this one first.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, in his Statement, the Assistant Minister said that in the process of carrying out that operation, they recovered some illegal firearms and stolen livestock. Could he give the breakdown of the firearms that were recovered because they covered a vast area? In the process of recovering stolen cattle, did they, only, target livestock stolen from Buuri District or also from other areas?
That is a good question. We are not targeting livestock from Buuri District only. We do target the Upper Eastern and any other place. You are aware that even in Kuria we have a problem of cattle rustling. So we do not just target one particular district. Even in disarmament itself, we do not just target Buuri District. We are going to disarm people even in Nairobi. We are going to disarm people in Mombasa, Kisumu, Eldoret, and in all other parts of Kenya, where people are holding illegal arms. If you know that you have an illegal arm, which is not registered and you do
Mr. Ojode, give your final comment on that.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, nobody will be harassed. However, we ask those people who hold illegal firearms to surrender smoothly in order for them not to be harassed.
Bw. Naibu Spika wa Muda, Waziri Msaidizi anawaomba watu warudishe bunduki lakini ni bunduki gani inarudishwa wakati watu wanaangamizwa katika operesheni? Kwa nini operesheni inafanywa katika jamii fulani pekee yake?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, we are not carrying out the operation in a particular area. I have said that we will carry out an operation in the areas which are prone to insecurity. The operation is not just being carried out among the Samburu, Borana or the Turkana. We will carry out an operation to recover illegal arms which are used to terrorise and take by force livestock belonging to Kenyans.
It is all right!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the last Ministerial Statement I would like to make was sought by Mr. Letimalo, who is the Member of Parliament for Samburu East, where cattle rustling take place.
That is unfair!
Order, Mr. Letmalo!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, following an earlier attack against the Boranas on 15th November, 2009 by suspected cattle rustlers from Samburu and Turkana, where nine persons were killed, the police received intelligence reports indicating that some of the bandits at âHolukuâ Manyatta, were armed with illegal arms and had earlier raided Ndumuru, which is within Tigania District. On 21st November, 2009, a combined force of security officers conducted a cordon and searched for illegal arms at the said manyatta. As they approached the manyatta, they were attacked by the suspected bandits. This prompted an exchange of fire between the bandits and the security personnel. Contrary to what the hon. Member alleged, the shooting by the security personnel was not indiscriminate. They were responding to an attack by the suspected bandits. It is not true that the police left the injured and the dead persons. After the exchange of fire, the security officers found out that two people, Lopeyok Lenkupala and Naisumari Lenakwena had been injured. They were rushed to Isiolo District Hospital
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, this is unbelievable. The Assistant Minister is fond of misleading the House every time. On 21st November, 2009, security personnel from Isiolo went to a manyatta in Loruko and not âHolukuâ as he is claiming. It is time the Assistant Minister investigated and got the actual information. We are talking about Loruko. The security personnel were there at 4.00 a.m. when it was still dark. How do you expect wananchi who are still sleeping at that time to know that those were security officers who shot indiscriminately killing a woman and 16-year old boy and referred to them to be the attackers?
Order, Mr. Letimalo! You have to be specific! Are you seeking a clarification from the Ministerial Statement that the Assistant Minister has made? Be specific!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am quite specific. I am saying that the Assistant Minister is misleading this House. First, the incident took place at Loruko and not âHolukuâ. Secondly, he should also know that the people who were killed were a woman and a 16-year old boy. Does he expect a 16-year old boy or a woman to hold guns? Could the Assistant Minister explain that?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not want to dispute what he is saying involving life. However, you will agree with me that there is a lot of insecurity, especially on cattle rustling within that area. The area the hon. Member has talked about could have also had a problem. I do not want to dispute that, but what I have on the ground is the place which I have mentioned. However, I can find out whether the place he has also talked about was also raided and a woman killed. As far as I am concerned, and as far as the report I have is concerned, no woman was killed. So, I can go back and check because the area is prone to insecurity.
Mr. Letimalo, the Assistant Minister will carry out further investigations and find out whether a woman and a boy were shot and killed. Are you satisfied with that answer?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, but I am ready to assist the Assistant Minister by giving him the name of the woman and the 16-year old boy who were killed.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not dispute what the hon. Member is saying because that could have been another place the attackers went. So, he should get me the names in order for me to investigate.
Fair enough! I think you can proceed on that. That will rest the Ministerial Statements. Next Order!
This is resumption of debate interrupted on 25th November, 2009. Let us proceed. Mr. Wamalwa, are you seconding the Motion?
Yes, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir,
Were you contributing at that time?
Yes, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I had started my contribution.
You have eight additional minutes!
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, once again, I thank my good friend, Eng. Gumbo, for bringing this very important Motion. Indeed, it is a Motion that touches on the lives of close to 30 million Kenyans who use herbal medicine in this country. It is a Motion that seeks to find local solutions to an otherwise global problem. It is a Motion that seeks to bring about a legal and regulatory framework for the herbal industry in Kenya. It is a Motion that seeks to bring about safety for the lives of many Kenyans who are currently using alternative medicine. There are issues of safety that arise from this and we also need to look at how other countries have dealt with this problem. You will find that they have similar experiences where a large population uses herbal medicine. You have herbal medicines being imported into the country, particularly, from China which is advanced in herbal medicine. The Chinese herbal medicine is not only in this country. If you go all over the world, you will find that there are Chinese there practicing herbal medicine and many people believe that herbal medicine is safer than conventional medicines. Herbal medicine has no side effects and many people have resorted to using it.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me the opportunity to support this very important Motion and to congratulate Eng. Gumbo for thinking about this. Often, we think too modern and forget that we have potential that we could exploit in many sectors, partly because of our upbringing. The idea of legislation is clearly important because it is here that we begin to recognize and to expand the possibilities in terms of benefiting from this resource about which much has not been done.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to join hon. Eng. Gumbo in urging this House to also urge the Government to formulate a policy and establish a legal framework for the practice of herbal medicine and the use of pharmaceutical products that are based on herbs.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, as I thank the Engineer for coming up with is very necessary Motion, may I acknowledge that today, we have traditional medical practices, herbal medicine and science in general that form artefacts of our culture, which are rapidly getting extinct. They are getting extinct because they have been wrongly condemned over the years and, today, they risk becoming completely extinct. As I say this, I take comfort in the knowledge that majority of us, Members of this House, and Kenyans in general have, either directly or indirectly, been beneficiaries of herbal medicine practice in more ways than one. I know that over 80 per cent of children who are born are usually attended to by traditional birth attendants. Not many people know that, of all the children who are born in this country, only 20 per cent go through hospitals. So, those traditional birth attendants who base the practice of their knowledge on herbal medicine would benefit from this particular law. I also know that over 70 per cent of Kenyans are circumcised. Circumcision is done by traditional circumcisers, especially in the Luhya community. Those are very renowned surgeons who actually use herbal medicine to cure those wounds during the post-surgery care. I also know that almost one per cent of Kenyans have undergone traditional removal of teeth for purposes of cultural rites and so on.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I, therefore, must reiterate here that the practice of herbal medicine is very important and realistic, and we cannot run away from it. It is just sad that even for the whole five years that I was in this House in the last Parliament, I never thought about this. I want to thank the Engineer, in spite of professional background, for coming up with the proper law. We must, therefore, provide for adequate legislation for the practice and use of herbal products and to purposely establish an oversight regulatory mechanism if we are to standardize the practice. In so doing, we shall end up disabusing and debunking the stigma that is associated with the
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, first, I rise to support this Motion and I wish to thank Eng. Gumbo for bringing this very important Motion in our medical practice. First, I want to say that the alternative medicine is used as first aid in this Continent by most Africans. In most African communities before they take their children to hospital, they used to administer herbal medicine on their children or to the old people and then take them to hospital. So, it is used as First Aid. In most places, especially in the far flank areas where the pastoral people are found, this alternative medicine is very popular. You would find them very popular in places where there are no dispensaries. This is because you will go to some locations in these places where there is no single dispensary. So, the recourse is actually the alternative medicine. Herbal or alternative medicine is part of the African indigenous knowledge which has not been fully exploited by our professionals or by the Ministry of Public Health and Sanitation. So, we need to take an audit of what we have in terms of African indigenous knowledge with more specific reference to herbal and traditional medicine. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, if you talk to urban people in this country, most of them will tell you that herbal medicine is primitive and is associated with witchcraft and that kind of stuff.
However, let me confirm to you that herbal medicine works. I have seen it at my place and in many other places where I have served as an administrative officer in this country. Recently, I had the privilege of visiting the Republic of Israel. I toured some farms where they carry out organic farming after which, in their cottage industries; they sell herbal teas, herbal mint and very special things that are found in Kakamega Forest, Pokot, Marakwet and Maasailand. That is what is found in Israel. That is what we are talking about. Israel has commercialized that sector and they have a regulatory body to look into it. Therefore, I support my colleague by saying that we also need to look at what our traditional surgeons used to do. For example, in my community, when people have brain problems, they go to Marakwet. In Marakwet, you will find very special surgeons who can even replace somebodyâs scalp using their own special components. We need to develop that knowledge. When we go to the Maasailand or market trading centers, you will find Maasai old men moving around with many herbal drugs and concoctions that are very useful. That is very common during market days when you tour this country. We need to utilize what our people have in terms of herbal and traditional medicine, so that, that sector can be promoted. That sector is popularly known as dawa ya kienyeji. Very few people in Kenya would want to be associated with what is kienyeji . It is not modernity in the eyes of the urban people. I want us to promote what is kienyeji. We have a proliferation of Chinese herbal doctors in this city and in many other towns in the country. Why can we not recognize our people; our own traditional doctors? We want to promote and have a legal framework that will control issues of standardization,
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I was thinking I was not going to catch your eye that fast. Nonetheless, I would like to start by supporting this Motion. I want to congratulate the hon. Member for bringing such a Motion before this House. In supporting it, I want to indicate that herbal medicine is one of the most misunderstood concepts in this country. Even as I was coming here from one of the Committees, some of the hon. Members were joking and saying that I was part of the dying negative or retrogressive culture that still supports traditional concepts. Herbal medicine is one of the few traditional concepts that I support. I support this concept for several reasons. Herbal medicines are part of our natural resources and they form the basis for human survival. A lot of literature has been written, especially on our natural resources. At the international level, there is even a convention that was concluded in 1992. That is the Convention on Biological Diversity that talks about our world natural resources. However, one of the natural resources that has in the past not received much attention is the resource that is called âgerm-plasmâ; that is part of herbal medicine. A renowned bio-technology and genetic diversity expert, Stephen Witt says:-
âIf you ask most agricultural scientists to list our natural resources, they will probably answer soil, water and air. Yet, there is a fourth resource that for many years has received scant attention. It is germ-plasm; the natural resource that makes earth unique in so far as we know it in our solar system.â As I have indicated herbal medicine forms part of germ-plasm as a plant genetic resource. Plant genetic resources are very vital for human survival because they are what form the core of food security in the world and they are a source for medicinal plants all over the world.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, herbal medicines all over the world are derived from herbs and cure diseases that have proved terminal in the past. One of the reasons for supporting herbal medicine is because they are extremely effective when used, are easily available and are cheap. The drugs have a gender dimension. For instance, if you look at contraceptives in the modern world, you will find that they are male oriented and yet in herbal medicines, you have contraceptives both for men and women. Since there are the beneficial values that we have in plant genetic resources, especially in herbal medicine, there is over-exploitation and pollution. Again, I would like to quote certain figures from the International Union for the Conservation of Nature and natural resources popularly referred to as âIUCNâ which estimates that 40,000 plant species exist on earth. Two thirds are in the tropics and a quarter exists in Latin America alone. Out of these species, 20,000 to 25,000 are threatened with extinction and an
You have five minutes.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is used for constipation, haemorrhoids, worms, oedema, nervous asthma, high blood pressure, abysses, skin disease and it is also used as a coffee substitute. Another example is citrus medica or the common lemon. It can treat cough, bronchitis, digestion problems, scurvy, fever, malaria, ear ache, cold and fainting. Of course, because of lack of time, I am not going to give some of the side effects. The benefits outweigh the side effects. We also have the lemon grass that we normally use to sweeten our tea. It can be used for curing bad breath, tooth ache, fever, and haemorrhoids. It can also be used as an insecticide, baby oil, and massage oil, ointment for body care and anti-haemorrhoids ointments. These books detail more than 5,000 herbs easily available in our country. One of the things that I would urge the hon. Member to do is to bring a Bill here which we will enact into law. He must not stop at a Motion stage. The reason I would urge you to bring a Bill here is that if you look at our legislative framework, in Kenya, we have taken the approach that has been taken by the developed world which protects plant bidders right and patent. We do not protect indigenous knowledge of beneficial properties of plant genetic resources, including our herbs. To given an example of how dangerous it is when we do not protect, there is an Ethiopian plant called Endod. Endod has been used by Ethiopian women and Ethiopians generally for years for very many values. For instance, women use it for laundering their shamas or white shawls. They use it for many other things. It is used for free. A few years ago, an Ethiopian biologist actually discovered that this plant had certain other benefits. For instance, in America, it helped to unclog their systems. What they did because they were having problems of a plant that was introduced called zebra plant--- This plant was actually causing a lot of problems to the American water ways. This plant could actually kill snails.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, they actually took this plant and patented it in the United States of America (USA), and now if Ethiopians want to use this plant, they
Thank you very much, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me an opportunity to contribute to this very important Motion. The provision of healthcare in any country is crucial. I wish at this juncture, to congratulate my colleague, hon. Eng. Gumbo, for having looked at an area that most of us have taken for granted.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I may not be able to draw a dividing line between the traditional medicine and herbal medicine. So, when I use them interchangeably, I should be understood. This is so because even traditional medicine is from herbs, but there is a belief somehow at the back of our minds that, perhaps, herbal medicine is close to modern medicine, whichever the case.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, many communities that I have been to use traditional or herbal medicine. They are many because during my past career, I worked in seven provinces out of the eight, and I stayed long enough to know the practices of the resident communities. The majority of them use traditional medicine and they have been very effective. For instance, in Coast Province, particularly the district where I was born and brought up, you will find less diseases like epilepsy and asthma because at a young age we believe, and we have seen it practically, that these diseases, which are declared incurable by modern medicine, can actually be cured. As hon. Dr. Khalwale rightly pointed out, 80 per cent of circumcision is done traditionally. In my place, it is 90 per cent; because of the neglect of traditional, or herbal medicine practitioners - the neglect that it has been given by those who are supposed to manage healthcare services, that is the Ministry of Health - they use equipment that once in a while cause infection. I believe that with the introduction of a policy which will give direction, and introduce a legal framework, we should be able to advise them on what type of instruments to use, and how they can clean them after they have performed one circumcision. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I know it will be difficult, even after introducing a law to provide for intellectual property rights, particularly for traditional medicines. This is so because, as the title indicates, it is traditional. These are medicines that have been inherited over the years but, somehow, some of these practices can be
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. I would like to state right from the outset that I support this Motion. In this country, everything African is looked at as being demonic. It is in that perspective that I would like to thank my brother, Eng. Nicholas Gumbo, for realizing that even an African can come up with something that is viable.
African medicine or herbal medicine is actually God-given. The doctors who were curing people acquired that knowledge from their forefathers. It was hereditary. They know what type of medicine cures which disease. In this country, we have not yet put up a legal framework to regulate herbal medicine.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, you know that herbal medicine is more effective than the generic modern medicine that we use. The herbal medicine has very little side effects, unless one does not use it well. This could also be as a result of being treated by quacks. I thank Eng. Gumbo for bringing up this Motion. When we pass this Motion and he brings a Bill to this House, we need to come up with a legal framework so that not everybody who is poor--- Somebody could just wake up one morning and go to the bush to bring some herbs which he or she would claim that they can cure a disease. We need a legal framework in place so that those who claim that they have medicine to treat certain ailments are put to task to prove to us. We have a research centre which can test that kind of medicine and prove to us that it is effective.
There are some diseases that are not treatable by modern medicine. You will find quack doctors putting up notices which say that they can cure diseases such as Asthma, Diabetes and all other mentionable diseases, including the latest, HIV/AIDS. This is true. If there is anybody who claims that he has medicine to cure a disease that no modern medicine can cure, we would want that person to come out in broad daylight and state how many patients he or she has cured. They should not be allowed to con Kenyans by saying that they can cure any disease. Such people claim that they can cure everything be it headache, accident injuries and so on. So, to get rid of the quack doctors, I think Eng.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is prepared in a certain form. When you put it there, you just get dry. This Motion has come in handy. I am sure Kenyans who come from the area I come from are in agreement with me. We could even plant those trees. We know it! Everybody who was circumcised knows what type of tree that is used on those who are circumcised. To tell us that the tree cannot cure wounds now, that is something we cannot understand. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, when it comes to formulating the Bill, let us put in place a legal framework on African research station, so that the drug that was used on me when I was circumcised can be taken to that research station to see how effective it is over the wounds. Even people who are involved in accidents can easily use our drug, so that they can get cured without experiencing any side effects. In fact, if I put off my clothes, you will see that there were no side effects from the drug I was treated with after circumcision. However, with modern medicine, if you take it, you will develop side effects.
Hon. Bifwoli, could you tell us the name of the drug?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I know it only in my mother tongue; Kibukusu . Can I tell you the name of the drug in my language?
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is called â embulu â. The drug is very effective when we put it on you.
With those many words, I beg to support.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I stand here to support this very noble Motion. Ordinary medicine has developed from homeopathic medicine, herbal medicine and other forms of medicine.
Before I go further, I would like to inform the House, in one of my capacities as the Chairman of the Board of the New Nyanza General Hospital, that we have been looking at alternative medicine, and we do not discount it. Of course, we would like some sort of formality and system where we can have reputable doctors or practitioners of herbal medicine.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I wish to donate five minutes to Mr. ole Metito.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to thank the Assistant Minister for donating to me those few minutes. I want to start by saying that I support this Motion. I also want to congratulate the mover for bringing it at the right time. A lot has been said on the importance of herbal medicine and I want to, very quickly, talk about three points. Herbal medicines are affordable and accessible at the local level. They are also original, which is also an advantage. They are pure and have a wider reach. They can be accessed by a wider population and they are prescribed using the local language; therefore, the patients understand. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, there are several things that need to be corrected. First, we need to regulate and control the packaging. We also need to ensure cleanliness of both the premises and those who administer the medicines. We should also ensure that they are tested to make them safe. They also need to be licensed. It is also good to control the dosage. At times, they are given as under-dose or over-dose. It is also good to test the knowledge of herbal medicine by the practitioners. We should ascertain whether they qualify to administer the medicines.
It is also good to have a regulatory framework, so that we stop those who prescribe from being harassed by the authorities, especially the Chiefs and the Assistant Chiefs. So, there is need to control, regulate and monitor this practice. It is also good to check on the hygiene standards. On responsibility, it is good that they be answerable to a certain Government department. There is also need to instill some code of ethics in the practice. With those few remarks, I beg to support. Thank you.
Thank you Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Right from the outset, I want to support this motion; I wish to congratulate my friend the Rarienda MP, Eng. Gumbo, for bringing this motion at this time. In fact, it is a motion that should have come yesterday. It is important to appreciate that we in the health sector have always appreciated the work of herbalists. In our policy document of 1994, we have clearly said that traditional medicine, that is herbs, should be recognized by the Ministry of Health, and I believe that, that policy document guides the Health sector up to date. But it is also important to realize that we have never come up with a legal framework, under which these herbalists should operate. That is why I am saying this Motion is very timely, and that this House should put in place a framework, under which we can control the functions and the activities of these herbalists. At the moment, you see some adverts about herbalists who can treat everything right from HIV/AIDS to cancer, infertility, asthma, hypertension and everything else. It is important that we put in place a legal framework, so that we can know who is actually treating what. I want to appreciate that quite a number of herbalists are now
Thank you Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir.
I think there was Eng. Maina who wanted to contribute. I can give him five minutes.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, for your consideration. First of all, I want from the outset, to say that I support this motion. Herbal medicine has been there from time immemorial. In fact, it is written about in the Old Testament. God told us to use the trees for our healing. One of the mistakes we have made is to disregard advice. One of the major drawbacks in the history of Africa is actually lack of appreciation, or condemnation, of our traditions. Herbal medicine in African countries has been largely condemned, unlike all other kinds of medicine. We have had herbal medicine from time immemorial. We even had some kind of spiritual healing by people who conducted all kinds of healing and they were very important in the society. All the chaos we are today witnessing in society, which are uncontrolled, are because of our abandoning, or forgetting and condemning our traditions and taking up things from the so-called West. So, herbal medicine is actually important. So, herbal medicine is an important part of our history and today, and I support this. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, you get quacks in a market left unattended and controlled. That is what has happened with herbal medicine. So, this Motion will try and bring order to an important market and knowledge that has been left unappreciated. We are likely to condemn the nine good people with herbal knowledge because there is one quack who lies that he can cure HIV/AIDS and any disease. That quack charges you maybe, ten cows because you are scared. So, it is very important that we pass this Motion and have these regulations so that order can be brought to this field. There is no doubt that we have examples. A university in Zimbabwe has identified today a plant that cures prostate cancer that we are scared of. That medicine is being sold in the market in Harare. The Zimbabweans will tell you that traditionally, men used to take soup made of that tree and traditional liquor once they were past a certain age. So, that knowledge has been there. We in Kenya and other countries of Africa need to appreciate our history, learn the good knowledge that our ancestors had and we will be better off. If we leave this knowledge unprotected and condemned in the open, the developed West will take advantage of it. There are many medicines the West is
The Mover may respond, there being no other Member to contribute. You are at liberty to donate your time to any hon. Member.
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir. Due to time, I will give one minute to Mr. C. Kilonzo.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I wish to support this Motion. I come from an area where this profession has been abused. In Ukambani region where I come from, you will find quacks who operate under the guise of herbal medicine doctors. It is so adverse in Ukambani that some of these quacks claim that if they will give you some particular herbs, your straying husband will be caught red-handed under the name of herbal medicine. They tell you that they will come to your homestead and give you some herbs to prevent thieves from breaking into your homestead and stealing.
It is for that reason that we need to legislate the practice of herbal medicine. The false belief that somebody is born with the knowledge is non-existent. Nobody is born with the knowledge. What we need is backup institutions to train people on herbal medicine. We need scientific backup, so that we ensure that whoever practices herbal medicine is properly trained. In years to come, we hope we will have herbal medicine doctors who are graduates from the university.
Due to time constraint, I wish to support this Motion which is long overdue.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I wish to start by thanking all my colleagues who have supported this Motion. These are Mr. Eugene Wamalwa, Dr. Kilemi Mwiria, Dr. Bonny Khalwale, Mr. Asman Kamama, Ms. Milly Odhiambo, Mr.
Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move the following Motion:- THAT, considering that the country relies on rain fed agriculture for food production; aware that rainfall is inadequate and unreliable; appreciating the need to ensure that all households can reliably and affordably access basic food items; aware that Government has put in place measures to develop and revitalize various irrigation projects which had collapsed; this House resolves that the Ministry of Agriculture in collaboration with the Ministry of Water and Irrigation move to set up small holder irrigation schemes of at least 2,000 acres in all constituencies where applicable so as to facilitate food crop production. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, Kenya is a very wonderful country. It is endowed with a lot of resources. We have a lot of rivers, dams and lakes. After many years of Independence, this country still relies on rain fed agriculture. This Motion is very important and the House should pass it, so that we can start small holder irrigation schemes in every constituency to relieve the sufferings of our people who are dying from hunger and starvation in various parts of the country. Recently, I went round this country as the Chairman of the Select Committee on Cattle Rustling and I saw a lot of people who are suffering. We went to Samburu, Garissa, Tana River and many other areas where
Order, hon. Members! Mr. Kaino, you still have 17 minutes when we will resume. It is now time for the interruption of business. The House, therefore, stands adjourned until 2.30 p.m. this afternoon.
The House rose at 12.30 p.m.