Hon. Senators, we will start with those Senators who want to seek Statements. Is there no Senator seeking for a Statement? Let us proceed to the Statements in the appendix. DELAYED PROMOTION OF ADMINISTRATION POLICE OFFICERS The Chairman of the National Security and Foreign Relations Committee is not here and neither is Sen. Elachi.
STATUS OF STREET FAMILIES AND URCHINS IN KENYA Is the Chairperson of the Labour and Social Welfare Committee here? He is not here and Sen. Leshore is also not in.
CONSTRUCTION OF THE KIRINYAGA SEWERAGE PLANT Is the Chairperson of the Committee on Roads and Transport here to respond to Sen. Karaba’s Statement. Is the Statement ready, Sen. Sijeny? The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, on Statement (d), the Cabinet Secretary (CS) was present during our meeting today and he informed us that the Sewage Department is not within his docket. He does not deal with construction of sewerage plants. He said that the House could, perhaps, redirect the issue to the Housing Ministry.
Why was it referred to the Roads and Transport Ministry, in the first instance?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not know for we had raised this the last time with the Speaker and we thought that it had been corrected.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I remember alerting the Chair then about this question. I told him that I thought that this question was supposed to be handled by the Chairman of Water and Irrigation Committee. I asked this question in the Ninth Parliament, I was given an answer by the Minister for Irrigation and Water and I wanted to make a follow up. She is correct when she says that the question should be rerouted.
I am just a bit surprised that it was referred to the Ministry of Roads and Transport in the first instance because it is not infrastructure.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Speaker then said he would redirect it to the right Committee. I do not know why it has appeared now in the Order Paper.
Bw. Naibu Spika, Kamati inayo deal na swala la maji ni Kamati ya Ardhi---
What is your point of order, Sen. (Dr.) Machage?
Bw. Naibu Spika, twajua kwamba kanuni za Bunge hili zinaturuhusu kutumia lugha moja unapozungumza. Ikiwa umechagua lugha ya Kiingereza unaendelea nayo hadi mwisho wa hotuba yako. Ukichagua Kiswahili basi utatumia Kiswahili hadi tamati. Sen. Boy Juma Boy anachanganya ndimi. Anasema Kamati inayo deal. Neno deal ni la Kiingeraza?
I think Sen. Boy Juma Boy knows that he is wrong. He knows he is out of order. Could you do what is right Sen. Boy Juma Boy.
Bw. Naibu Spika, Kamati inayohusika na swala la maji na ardhi ni Kamati ya Ardhi na Mazingira. Mimi ni mwanachama wa Kamati hii na nitalishughulikia swala hili na kuleta jibu kwa muda wa wiki moja.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am worried because I do not think that is the right Committee.
I know you should be because I am also not sure that is the correct Committee. What I would want you to do, because I do not want us to lose another two weeks---. I do not even know whether this construction of Kirinyaga Sewerage Plant is a function of the national Government or is a function of the County Government. We need to be clear on this issue so as to know the exact The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is not a point of order. I want to put more weight on the subject. That particular question should be answered by the Chairperson of Lands because sewerage or huge water projects are implemented through the water service boards, which falls under the Ministry of Water and Irrigation. That could be the reason the CS of Ministry Roads and Transport felt that the query should be addressed by the Ministry of Water and Irrigation.
We are told that there is no Committee on Water.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we do not have a Committee on Water, but anything to do or related to it is normally answered by---
That is why Sen. Mositet, I am of the view that the ruling I have given would be right. Let Sen. Karaba make up his mind and decide to whom to direct the question.
Obliged, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
That will be looked at tomorrow. The next Statement is also sought by Sen. Karaba.
Sen. Karaba, what is the issue?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I wanted to go by your direction. The advice that you have given supersedes mine. We will, therefore, go by what you have suggested to do. Over this question on sewerage---
Come up with the issue tomorrow. Raise it again and refer to this ruling or this direction and let us get it tomorrow.
Much obliged, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
The next question also has to do with you, Sen. Karaba. STATUS OF MAKUTANO-NGURUBANI-KIMBIMBI-SAMSON CORNER ROAD The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Statement is ready. This was a request for a Statement on the status of Wanguru Airstrip in Mwea, ongoing renovation of the Kimbimbi-Sagana-Kagio-Kutus and Ngurubani-Kimbimbi roads. Supplementary questions were asked by a number of Senators with regard to the ongoing renovation of the Sagana-Kagio-Kutus and Ngurubani-Kimbimbi roads. The specific questions were:- (1) Why the Government was not widening the Sagana-Kaggio-Kutus Road? (2) Why the Government was not taking care of the shoulders that were already worn out, particularly between Ngurubani and Kimbimbi? (3) Why the heights of bumps had not been increased to slow down the speed of motor vehicles? (4) Was the Kshs45 million the total amount spent to repair the Kirinyaga section or the entire length of the road. (5) The Sagana-Kagio-Kutus road was meant to be completed by the end of June but it was far from being completed. What was the cause for this delay? (6) What is the Ministry’s policy with respect to bumps because some of them are unofficially erected on the roads? (7) What measures have been taken to ensure that persons with disability easily and comfortably cross the roads? (8) The Makutano-Ngurubani-Kimbimbi Road tender had been split into three for faster construction to take place. According to the Procurement Act tenders cannot be split. Can this be explained? (9) There are many motorbike accidents occurring on the Eldoret-Kitale Road. What steps does the Government intend to take to address this? The response is as follows:- The road is not too narrow for it originally had a carriage way with width of six metres and unpaved shoulders of one metres on each side. However, some sections have eroded over time resulting in the reduction of shoulder width and part of the carriage way. The Kenya National Highways Authority (KENHA) plans to progressively reinstate the road to its original condition starting with the ongoing contract where we have completed reinstatement of sections between Sagana and Kagio. The KENHA awarded tender No.KENHA/MTCE/RD/1865 of KShs45,838,096 and part of the scope of the works was for the reinstatement of the critical worn out shoulders of Sagana-Kagio-Kutus Road which has been done. The contractor has been instructed to widen by benching and reinstating to gravel conditions all the critical sections of the shoulders. The Makutano-Ngurubani-Kimbimbi-Samson Corner Road is not too narrow as it has a carriage way with a width of 6.25m and 1.5m wide shoulders on each side. Both carriageways and shoulders are in good condition. It is noted that the shoulders are heavily used by non-motorized traffic especially within the trading centres. The speed bumps preceded with rumble strips installed are standard as recommended by the Kenya National Highways Authority (KeNHA). The bumps, in combination with the warning signs are supposed to warn the motorist thereby reducing the speed as required in order to enhance road safety. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Sen. Karaba, you may proceed.
It is not possible--- The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
I thought she concluded.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I suppose so because the response was supposed to address the issue of the airstrip.
But she started with that one!
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I thank Sen. Sijeny for that elaborate answer. However, it is misleading in the sense that even the engineers themselves are attesting to the fact that they could not complete that section because of poor weather conditions which still persist. Why are they saying that they have already worked on the potholes? The weather could not allow them to fill the potholes. So far, no works have been done on that road. The current status is correct because I am always on that road. Even today I drove on that road and it is in bad shape. Could we, therefore, instruct that the engineer visits the roads to see if I am telling the truth or it is him who is being misled so that the construction works can continue unabated? What they are saying now about the new design that they should have done earlier, is that there is an increase in population particularly in urban centres. Ngurubani is one of the most sprawling towns in Kenya where the population has outstripped the area. All the people converge on the road.
Sen. Karaba, are you seeking a clarification or making a statement?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am seeking a clarification as I explain why I want that road widened. It is because of the increased number of users. So far, nothing has happened.
Sen. Sijeny, the Cabinet Secretary (CS) for Roads and Infrastructure was here today. Was this one of the roads that were discussed with him?
Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Sen. Karaba is saying that he was not satisfied with the discussion.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, that is true. The last time we were in session I announced that the Cabinet Secretary would be coming today. We tried reaching Sen. Karaba, he did not turn up to interrogate the CS. We were of the opinion he was satisfied with the Statement. Be that as it may, every issue he has raised is being addressed and shall be adequately done according to the schedule and subject to the availability of funds as has been indicated. I would like to continue with the next Statement on the airstrip.
Have we finished with statement on the road? Is the airstrip part of this question? I thought this has to do with the issue of the Makutano-Ngumbani-Kimbimbi-Samson Corner road only.
Yes, I am guided accordingly, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
I have a short Communication to make. Hon. Senators, I wish to recognize the presence of the visiting students from Egerton University from Murang’a County. In our usual tradition of receiving and welcoming visitors to Parliament, I extend a warm welcome to them and on behalf of the Senate, and on my own behalf, wish them a fruitful visit. Thank you.
On a point of order Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I join you in recognizing the students who are seated at the public gallery. They are from my university. I was a lecturer there on a sabbatical leave now. Egerton is a very renowned university. It is the only university with a distinction, North of River Limpopo and south of Sahara. I did my two degrees there. The students there might end up in all spheres of life, politics being one of them. I congratulate the students and urge them to be role models in our counties and country. They should teach their colleagues and young brethren in secondary schools that burning dormitories is not allowed and does not pay.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I join you and the House to welcome the delegation from Egerton University. It could just be a matter of coincidence that the group that came was drawn from only one county. That was not meant to represent some divisions within the University. When we were in the university, and not so long ago---
Order, Sen. M. Kajwang’! In my communication I said they are students from Egerton University who are from Murang’a County. They are not a delegation representing Egerton University. They are students from Murang’a County who are pursuing their degree courses in Egerton University. Is that clear now?
I am very well guided, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I want to tell the young men and women sitting up there that when we were at the university which was not too long ago, we did not have differences amongst us depending on where one came from. It is unfortunate that once we leave the university, we start imposing some of those differences which are really artificial. I encourage the young men and women at the university to ensure they live the spirit of nationalism. They should look at Kenya as a country not as a collection of counties or tribes. Finally, I assure them that this Senate has taken, with a lot of concern, some of the issues that are coming out of Murang’a County. I hope when they go back to the grassroots they will be the champions of transparency and accountability. As young leaders, they should play their role to ensure those elected do the right thing with the public funds entrusted to them. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am delighted to see the people of Murang’a so that they can see the Deputy Speaker who is also their Senator. The Chair is a very able leader who has really guided this House. I hope they will learn something about his leadership. Therefore, may they feel welcome.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I join you and the House in welcoming the students from your County who are studying in Egerton University. They are actually very few. Egerton is a great University founded by one of the top scholars from the Mulembe nation called Prof. Richard Musangi. He spent a lot of time and energy to bring that university to where it is. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, may I tell them that they have a good Senator who is our Deputy Speaker in this House. I always pride myself with the distinction that I proposed him to be made an ambassador. He worked with distinction in Brussels. I would also like to say that your county is not very famous in this Chamber because of the mismanagement of public funds and other transgressions. As you go through school, please join the queue of the minority of Kenyans who are upright, honest and straightforward, who know that public funds are not private property. Go and make sure your county looks better than it does now.
Thank you, Sen. Wetangula. Sen. Omondi, I am assuming that it is on this issue.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want join you to welcome the students who have visited the Senate. Secondly, I am neither happy nor convinced with the response to the Statement given by Sen. Sijeny on the Sen. Karaba’s question. I request that we get a clarification on what the Ministry is doing to give protection to persons with disabilities using public roads in terms of talking robots to allow the visually impaired to cross roads safely, drop-out roads connecting to other roads for persons using wheelchairs and paintings used to show the direction for the hearing impaired. She should clarify whether the users who are persons with disabilities-- -
Sen. Omondi, I notice you have moved on to the statement being sought. I assume that we have finished with the students.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I requested to enjoin the two but I am finishing. I need a clarification because I sought the Statement on the issue of road users with disabilities.
On a point of order Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I appreciate the visit by the university students to the Senate. I want to tell them that I am the Chairman of the Committee on Education.
It will be very bad if they leave the Senate without knowing that there is a Chairman of the Committee on Education. May I tell them that many others have been to The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Sen. Karaba, without trying to preempt you, you are now doing my work. I will not allow you to go to the public gallery as you are proposing. May I thank all of you for that moment? Once I get a record of who the lady students are, I will recognize them as necessary. Sen. Karaba, we were dealing with the issue of the road and I do not know if it is over.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is not over.
Sen. Mositet, you wanted to raise an issue about roads?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, having listened to the Statement which had been sought by the Senator and the answer which was issue by the Chairman, it seems Sen. Karaba is much interested in knowing whether the shoulders were well done or they are being done. It is shocking because the roads in our county are so bad that we do not even talk about shoulders. When you drive between Ngong to Kiserian or to other parts of Kajiado and you hear a Senator talk of shoulders of a road, you see disparity in our counties. It is high time the Ministry of Transport and Infrastructure realizes that we have some counties that have poor roads. The Ministry should make sure that when funds are allocated, there are areas that deserve more than others. I am not saying the shoulders do not need to be attended to - because I have seen that Sen. Karaba is concerned with the road users like motorcyclists and pedestrians - but the ministry should know that some areas are needy. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have not seen the regulations by the NTSA in the House. I do not know if the motor cycle association have been consulted or whether public hearings have been conducted so that they can contribute to the formulation of the regulations. It is an area that we need to know. In terms of bumps, the KeNHA have done major roads for instance Athi-River - Namanga. However, along that road, we do not have bumps.
Sen. Mositet this is Statement hour. We are seeking Statements.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am not seeking.
Sen. Mositet, I hear you but we are now getting clarifications on the Statement sought by Sen. Karaba. Even if you talk about bumps on the Athi-River – Namanga Road, we will not get an answer now because we are dealing with a specific issue at the moment.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am only emphasising because Sen. Karaba raised the issue of bumps to be placed along Kagio road. Therefore, it is not only The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Sen. Mositet, I want you to seek a clarification on the Statement issued by Sen. Karaba. If you talk about other roads at this moment and you are not seeking an answer from them, I am sure that the Chairperson of the Committee will not answer you; unless you only need a general reaction to what you are saying.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the issue of bumps was not addressed and I truly believe that any highway requires bumps. I do not know if there was an oversight by the KeNHA on that particular road or on all roads because we have that problem all over the country.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I appreciate Sen. Karaba’s concerns about the shoulders of the good roads in his county. He also mentioned the issue about safety on the roads. May the Chairperson of the Committee tell this House and the country what steps the NTSA are taking to secure our roads? We have noticed that in the last four months, we have had grisly fatal accidents all over and more particularly at a black spot at Salgaa on the road between Nakuru and Eldoret. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we are losing too many lives at a black spot on the road between Nakuru and Eldoret called Salgaa. We are losing entire families and many other lives. Instead of the Jubilee Government improving safety on the roads, they are recycling old guards. They moved a man who had failed in drugs called hon. Mututho to the National Transport and Safety Authority (NTSA) ---
Order! Sen. Wetangula, I wish that you could raise the issue of Salgaa and other black spots as a substantive question so that we get a proper question on the NTSA as against riding on a question, but you will not get a satisfactory answer at the moment. I agree with you that the accidents and black spots are a matter of great concern. I wish that you could raise it as a substantive issue for your own statement.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I will raise a substantive statement later. The Jubilee Government promised Kenyans 10,000 kilometres of paved road in five years. To the best of my knowledge, three years are gone and you cannot count more than 500 kilometres of paved roads that the Jubilee Government has done. What is the policy of this Government in meeting promises that they made to Kenyans about paving or tarmacking the roads? Lastly, in terms of safety because now this touches the road that my distinguished colleague raised, what are we going to do about the irresponsible behaviour of drivers on the road to the extent that for you to slow down a driver, bumps must be put up and yet we have signage on the road to show the speed limits, pedestrian crossings and yet they are knocked down every other day? Could the Government consider, when training and licensing drivers, to also pass them through psychiatric tests, so that we weed out lunatics from our roads and have proper thinking people driving on our roads?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, a further statement was sought about the Eldoret-Kitale-Kapenguria Road. However, I have not heard her give The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, how I wish my colleagues would have attended the meeting on the issue of these roads. It is not easy for the Cabinet Secretary (CS) to come here all the time. I had announced and told my colleagues to avail themselves. Some of these reactions would have been explained into finer detail by the CS. Be that as it may, on the issue of regulation raised by Sen. Mositet, the Committee on Delegated Legislation had looked at these regulations. There has been public participation. Perhaps what we could do is to avail the report to hon. Senators. On the issue of the NTSA securing our road, this is something new---
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The Chairperson is saying that there was a meeting with the CS today. However, we came to this Chamber at midday, but we did not find anyone here. We were about five members.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we met with him in Committee Room No.5. I do not know what caused the communication breakdown. However, if they would have sought information from the relevant office, they would have known where the meeting was taking place. The CS will be here on Wednesday, next week. Therefore, they can still seek clarifications then. The issue of 10,000 kilometres raised by Sen. Wetangula would be better addressed by CS because it is a policy issue. With regard to the issue raised by Sen. Karaba, the preparation for the construction is ongoing. In fact, about 1,700 tenders have been awarded. There is a plan to ensure that a road is constructed in every county and priority given accordingly. I will give a detailed report later. The Government is aware of the high number of accidents involving motorbikes, not only along Nakuru -Eldoret Road, but many other roads all over the country. As such, the Ministry has gazetted regulations on the operations of the motorcycle industry, particularly targeting those involved in the passenger transport. The Ministry also held sensitization forums for county commissioners and traffic police officers on these regulations during the month of June. The NTSA is also developing a programme that will involve county commissioners, traffic police officers and NTSA staff to sensitize motor cycle riders on these regulations and road safety in general.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. That supplementary question was not to do with the death of motorcyclists. It had to do with the road which is completely finished and in use. It is not about road users. The road is bad.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is it in order for the distinguished lady, Vice Chairperson of the Committee, to tell this House that the NTSA is formulating policies and rules about road carnage when this country knows that a distinguished man from Murang’a, called hon. John Njoroge Michuki, became a Minister for Transport and within two months, he demonstrated ably to this country that it is not a shortage of rules or law, but a shortage of will that we have accidents. In no time, the lunacy in the matatu industry was cleared; The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Is hon. John Mututho the Chairman of the NTSA?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, yes, he is. He was recently appointed.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, as much as I appreciate that there are some existing regulations, there are certain things which are different. Times have changed. We need to harmonize them to ensure progress. By then we did not have the boda boda menace which is now extreme. We have to look at them. As we said earlier, most of the accidents are caused by lack of proper appreciation of the laws and lack of sensitization. Sensitization needs to be done in collaboration with the county commissioners all over the country. It should be devolved to the counties. By then, things were being done at the national level. That is why the Government should embark on proper sensitization to ensure everybody adheres to the rules.
Sen. Kagwe, are you on a point of order? What is the issue?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Chairperson should explain to us what punitive measures or enhanced penalties are meted out to those who misuse the roads. The major issue is indiscipline. There is no other issue. So, it is not about the rules or explanations that are supposed to be given. It comes out of individuals who do so deliberately, operate with impunity and believe that they are above the law. On our roads, the recklessness and abandon with which matatu drivers operate depicts individuals who are completely devoid of any consideration of law. I recall that hon. Jakoyo Midiwo moved a Bill in the National Assembly that was supposed to increase the penalties that are meted out to individuals who break the law. What is the position regarding the penalties? The reason why the United Kingdom is a safe driving place is because if you commit a traffic offence, the penalty is so high but you are never warned to do it. So, can we consider or have considered any such measures?
This statement has mutated. It was on a specific road but now we are discussing the National Transport and Safety Authority (NTSA). I am sure Sen. Karaba is confused about what is going on because he had sought to know about the shoulders of his road yet we are discussing NTSA. Sen. Hargura, what is your point of order?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I attended the meeting today with the Cabinet Secretary. There was an issue which was requested for by Sen. Wetangula on annuity. For the benefit of the hon. Senators who did not attend, we were told that the annuity of the 10,000 Kilometres is not there. Instead, we have the low volume sealed roads. There were two batches which were done before--- The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Did you rise on a point of information or are you seeking a clarification?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am not seeking a clarification. I just wanted to assist my Chairperson.
Are you informing the Chairperson?
Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to inform hon. Senators that there is the new low volume sealed road programme which is now being undertaken by the Ministry of Roads and Infrastructure. They have to do at least a road per county. Already 4,000 kilometres have been tendered. The next 3,300 is being tendered, that is Batch 2E. Out of the 4,000 kilometres, already tenders have been awarded for 1,700 kilometres. It is the responsibility of the hon. Senators to follow up with the Ministry to see whether their counties have been taken into account.
That brings us to the end of that statement. On the issue of the specific road, as Sen. Sijeny has said, when the Cabinet Secretary is invited to come and deal with an issue like this one, in my view, it is important that any Senator concerned with an issue like that should, as much as possible, try to avail themselves so that they can interrogate the situation in much more depth. Of course, that is an issue for the specific Senator but I agree with Sen. Sijeny on that specific point. What is it, Sen. Wetangula?
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. In management of our programmes, sometimes information is given from the Chair that a certain Cabinet Secretary is coming – you can see how few we are now – it will be desirable for the office of the Clerk to follow up with communication by way of a memo to hon. Senators so that we are made aware to attend such meetings. When there is communication from the Chair – I know we are supposed to be here but we also know that some of our colleagues are in committees elsewhere, other meetings and so on. I would have loved to attend that meeting but I did not even know about it. I am sure there are others who did not know about it. For instance, the distinguished Senator for Kwale did not know, Sen. Karaba, Sen. Haji and many others. Probably you did not also know. So, we need to have better communication so that we can elect to go to these very important meetings to pursue matters affecting our counties.
Sen. Wetangula, I agree with you. Sen. Sijeny had done her best. She circulated a note and said that the meeting would be in Committee Room No.5. However, as a matter of procedure, I agree with Sen. Wetangula. I direct that when a communication is made on an important issue like that one, for instance, a Cabinet Secretary coming to discuss a certain issue, a normal circular is made to hon. Senators to alert them. This information can be placed in their pigeon holes. It should not be assumed that hon. Senators are necessarily in the House all the time. It is important. If Sen. Karaba had come to the meeting in the morning, if he had known about it, I am sure we would have saved a lot of time that we have now spent The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Chairperson is yet to respond to the questions that were put across to her.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, by us.
Has she answered you?
No, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
I thought she answered you.
No, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. The Senator for Bungoma had asked some questions.
He has not complained that he did not get an answer. Talk for yourself. Say what was not clear to you. You cannot speak for hon. Senators who are sitting in the House.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, my question was that the road which requires some shoulders is as a result of it passing through very densely populated areas against what the Senator for Kajiado is talking about. The road passing through Kajiado is less densely populated with very many animals such as cattle. So, there is no point of putting the shoulders because after all they will not require those ones.
What clarification are you seeking?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the road from Makutano through Ngurubani and Samson Corner to Embu is narrow and dangerous. It is as a result of the increased population. It requires expansion. Potholes should be filled up by the Ministry. That is all.
Sen. Haji, what is your point of order?
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is Sen. Karaba in order to say that the road which Sen. Mositet is talking about has many cattle? Did he count them? Can he tell the House how many cattle were there?
Sen. Karaba’s point was that you do not need to erect bumps for cattle. I do not know whether that is well founded or not or whether it requires shoulders. Sen. Sijeny, I thought you answered those issues.
Mr. Deputy Speaker Sir, I did. Even if I repeated, I would be reading the same thin g especially the last one that he---
I thought you gave an answer for that.
He could perhaps read his statement for any other clarification.
we shall end that statement at that point.
Mr. Deputy Speaker Sir, I even sent a message through WhatsApp. They should embrace digital.
I stood with you but not everybody accesses your WhatsApp page. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I appreciate the students who have come and encourage them to work hard. I tell them that the sky is the bottom, not even the limit. The sky is the beginning of better things ahead. I am sure by the time you are taking charge, we will not be having the affirmative action because I see from your determined faces that you will take up leadership positions, study hard and achieve your hearts’ desires. Remember what you have been taught. Adhere to the rules, the spiritual and traditional values that you have been taught and ensure that you make this place better for the future so that when we are tired you will be in charge and taking good care of us. As the African saying goes; a child is only yours when it is in the womb and belongs to everybody when it is out. I am talking to you as your mother because I know that you will be taking good care of me in future. I wish you good luck and God’s blessing.
I trust the young ladies and their teachers feel welcome and are going to learn something from their stay in the Senate this afternoon. Next Statement!
INDUSTRIAL ACTION BY MEMBERS OF THE KENYA PLANTATION WORKERS UNION I notice that Sen. Elachi is not in the House. Sen. Madzayo do you have the statement ready?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, my instructions are that the response from the Ministry has not been received which is unfortunate. I seek the indulgence of the House to allow me to be in a position to respond within the next seven days.
That was for the Committee for Roads and Transportation. Yours is Statement (f) for Sen. (Prof.) Lesan. The correction is The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we had sought a meeting with the Nairobi County government because the Statement they had issued last time was unsatisfactory. Unfortunately, they sought for an adjournment and asked us to schedule the meeting for Thursday next week and we would accordingly inform Sen. Elachi to ensure that she attends.
You have an answer from Nairobi County. Do you not?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this is not the first time it is being given. It was there the last time and we said it was unsatisfactory and Sen. Elachi also agreed.
So you called for a meeting with them?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, yes, for a proper response because what they gave was unsatisfactory.
When are you going to give this Statement?
Do you have a proposed date with Nairobi County?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, Thursday, 28th of July.
So, you will, issue the Statement two weeks from now.
Mr. Deputy Speaker Sir, I am most obliged.
It is so ordered. Sen. Nabwala is not in the House. Is that yours Sen. Madzayo? THE RECENT INCREASE OF PRICE OF MAIZE FLOUR
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, yes. We also have not received any response from the Ministry. I would urge the House to indulge and have the Statement issued next week, most probably on Thursday.
It is so ordered.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am most obliged. PAYMENT OF SCHOOL FEES IN SCHOOLS/COLLEGES
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to seek a Statement from the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Education concerning the issue of The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Sen. M. Kajwang, do you want to ride on that?
Mr. Deputy Speaker Sir, I would want to ride on that request for a statement. The Cabinet Secretary (CS) for Education should also explain the rationale of banning fees payment using electronic means like Mpesa and how that relates to the government’s digital ambitions as stated by the Jubilee administration.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the CS should also tell us, in terms of the fixed fees ceiling for day schools, how many are adhering to the set fees which is Kshs9,000 for day schools. Some schools, for example, in my County, Nakuru, are charging up to Kshs21,000 per year in day schools. He should explain to us how that implementation is being done and the steps being taken to correct the errant head teachers and principals.
Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo, I do not have a copy of the Statement with me. Did you talk about schools or Kenya Medical Teaching Colleges (KMTCs) and such institutions?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I talked about three categories. That is secondary schools in the whole Republic, teachers training colleges and finally KMTCs.
I see. Sen. Wetangula.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, in the answer, the Chair should also tell us the Government policy or the policy guidelines of the Government on bursaries. I say this because I encounter a lot of students every other day. You will find that a student in the university with a fee balance of about Kshs80,000 per annum is granted a bursary of Kshs3,000 and these are children from destitute families. If we really want to give bursaries to students, they must be meaningful bursaries. It is better to give a few students full bursaries to learn than spreading meaninglessly thin to a level where they are of no effect. A student may turn up with a bursary cheque of Kshs5,000 and the school receives it and sends them back home The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I will issue the statement in two weeks’ time. However, I can even meet some of them and tell them what is happening. For example, I can meet Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo privately and tell him solutions to some of these problems.
Sen. Karaba, I would like you to take the work of the Senate very seriously. The statement is not directed to you as the Senator for Kirinyaga but as the Chairman of the Committee and there is nothing private here. You can talk privately if you wish but we expect you to give an answer to the House in two weeks’ time.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I just wanted to follow up on what Sen. Wetangula said. We cannot run an education system on populist lines. Money resources are very scarce in this nation that if you spread them thin and if we allow multiple sources of giving bursaries to students, we will be playing populists and, therefore, not serious. If we are serious about higher or basic education, the Government should come up with a single policy of financing education. At the moment, education is in the hands of the national Government. Therefore, it should take the responsibility of financing education and leave governors, MPs and so on out of it because it is not working. That is being populists. In a country like the United States of America (USA) you will find that when education is under a state government, that state government has a clear policy of education. People know exactly what their entitlements are and if you know that you cannot qualify to go to a state university, very early, your parents begin saving money for you or you borrow money and you know when you will pay it. This idea of postponing or avoiding responsibility is not working. So, rather than seeking a private audience with my friend Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo, Sen. Karaba should go to the Cabinet Secretary (CS) in charge of Education and tell him that according to the Senate, this whole system of financing education is not working.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I also want to ride on the same issue. Actually, every resource of this country is misappropriated. Funds meant for bursaries are being given to people who do not mind what education is for. For example, you will find money being given to an MCA who does not even know how to utilise it or MPs allocating money for bursaries which they use as working or campaign tools. You will also find governors giving bursaries and telling people that they are doing that for them because that is their campaign tool. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we need to consolidate this money. We need to have a proper policy which defines the utilisation of these funds. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Thank you Senator. You have reiterated very well what Sen. (Prof.) Anyang'-Nyong'o has said.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I just want to ride on the request by Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo so that when the Chair goes to seek the answers, we need to know where the Jubilee policy of free secondary has reached, considering the fact that the Kibaki Regime gave assurances and started a policy of Free Primary Education (FPE) which is fairly on track. I would like that addressed as well.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have an additional issue to ride on item (e). The Chairman should also determine how much money is spend on bursaries by the Ministry of Education and the Ministry of Finance through the National Government Constituencies Development Fund and the devolved county governments, so that we know exactly how much money in total is spend on bursaries. Perhaps, that will give a clear idea whether there is need to address policy issues.
Sen. Karaba, you have said that you will give an answer in two weeks’ time.
I would also like you to consider seriously the issue of policy as requested by the Senate. Like my colleagues have said, if a student is truly destitute – there are many students who are truly destitute – and the school demands, for example, Kshs25,000 for the first term and you give that student a bursary of Kshs2,000, that is money down the drain and money wasted because that child will stay in school for a week and then be send home afterwards. The MP will say that they have already disbursed bursaries and that is the end of the story. The child will stay at home and that will be a waste. Therefore, it is important that we, as a Senate, are clear on policy guidelines of all the bursaries and other funds, whether devolved or otherwise, that are being used in the counties so that we do not have wastage and as many students as possible can benefit. It is important that you put all those issues that have been raised to account as you get answers for this. FINANCING OF JARAMOGI OGINGA ODINGA TEACHING AND REFERRAL HOSPTIAL
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Last time, I think it was the afternoon session of 14th July that began at 2.30 p.m., I had a statement that was to be issued by the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget. Actually, the statement was issues by Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. on behalf of my Chairman. However, you will realise that there were two statements. One was from the CS, Mr. Rotich, who is in charge of Finance. There was also another one from the County Executive Committee (CEC) member in charge of finance from Kisumu County and the two statements did not tell the same story. We requested that the statements be referred back to the authors and make sure that we get one statement in this House that would not lead to that contradiction. Since then, I have not been told when this statement will be issued. However, as per last week’s agreement, according to the HANSARD, the Statement was to be delivered this week. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Sen. Billow, that has to do with your committee.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I seek the indulgence of the Senator to kindly repeat because I was busy consulting with another Senator.
You are seeking the indulgence of the Senator or of the Speaker?
Sen. (Prof.) Anyang’ Nyong’o, may I request you to kindly repeat.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, let me just summarize to my chair what the situation is. Last week, Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. read a statement on your behalf on the issue of financing of Jaramogi Oginga Odinga Teaching and Referral Hospital in Kisumu County. I had sought a statement to be issued on why the county government had not issued the conditional grants to Kisumu County from the Financial Year 2013/2014 up to now, according to the grants that were made. The statement from the Cabinet Secretary for National Treasurywas very comprehensive and gave reasons and the amount given. The statement from the Executive member in charge of Finance, Planning and Economic Development from Kisumu told a different story. So, the House decided that this statement should be returned so that each entity could work with the other one to give a coherent statement to the Senate so that we know exactly what has happened to the conditional grants for Jaramogi Oginga Odinga Teaching and Referral Hospital.
Sen. (Prof.) Anyang’ Nyong’o, my tracking record shows that the answer is due tomorrow 21st July, 2016. So, now that Sen. Billow is here, I hope he is going to follow it up to know whether we are going to have a combined answer tomorrow.
Thank you Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I wanted to suggest, with the concurrence of the Senator, a better way of dealing with this because we have dealt with it before and like he said, we have not brought a very comprehensive answer. I want to suggest a meeting where we will get the Treasury and the county government CEC member for Finance to appear before our committee. The issue of reconciling the two figures is a matter that we dealt with earlier and were not able to get a satisfactory response because the county government argues that there are delays and the Treasury says there are no delays. So, I would have requested that if we can invite these two parties next week and the Senator joins us to get a more comprehensive statement from both.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.
Sen. (Prof.) Anyang’ Nyong’o, that is not satisfactory for you?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, while I agree with the Chair that we should invite both parties to come to the Committee, in the mean time since they have already submitted a statement to be read tomorrow, we should receive that statement and that statement be part of the discussion so that no excuse is given that we had already submitted a statement to the Senate. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, that is okay. We can read the statement tomorrow.
So, you will endevour to give us an answer tomorrow then we can see how best we will proceed from there. Hon. Senators, before we proceed to the next order, I have another short Communication to make regarding our students.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the distinguished Senator from Meru County is not in the chamber, he is out there on very distinguished national duty, Co-Chairing the Joint Committee on Independent Electoral and Boundaries Commission (IEBC) with Sen. Orengo. So, on his behalf, I would want to welcome the students and encourage them to be good students. We have not heard of any dormitory burnt in their school yet and we hope there will be none. Their distinguished Senator is much respected in this House. He is called “the King” and we hope that on his behalf, we can make you as comfortable and be able to learn as you possibly can.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, thank you for also allowing me this chance to welcome the two schools; Loreto High School, Limuru and Nkuene Girls High School to this House. I wish them the best of their stay here and luck as they continue preparing for their Kenya Certificate of Secondary Education (KCSE) exams this year. I warn them that cheating of exams which was prevalent last year---. That should be something of the past and should not be entertained. Students should be discouraged from imagining that burning of schools and dormitories is a solution to their problems. It is not a solution but a problem created to the parents.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I also take the opportunity to welcome these young Kenyans to this eminent House. Remember that they are the leaders of today and they should not wait for tomorrow. They should copy the best examples and discard the worst examples and they will make Kenya a good country.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to join my colleagues in welcoming these students here and on behalf of the Kenya Women Senators, I want to encourage these young women that it is possible to become whatever you desire to be and I hope that they can see that even in the leadership in this House, we have 18 women. I want to tell them that they can be where they want to be and pick only the good things and sieve the bad ones. I say that because even in school destruction, there are very few The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, since everyone is declaring a capacity, I also want to welcome the young ladies from the two schools; in my capacity as a member of the Kenya Young Parliamentarians Association, I am an active Member with Sen. Wangari. I just want to encourage the young girls that youth or gender should not be a disability. It should also not be the basis upon which you request to be considered. If you are to look at gender, the world is moving to a situation where the leading economies are now being led by women. In the United Kingdom, Theresa May has taken over. In Germany, Angela Merkel is holding the reigns. In the United States, God willing and if I had a vote, Hillary Clinton would be the next President of the United States of America (USA). We are going to see a future where there will be a lady leading this nation. I do hope that they will be the ones making that history, but better still, if someone can make that history before you because where the world is, it does not matter whether you are a lady or a gentleman. What matters is your character, industry and the kind of love you have for the people.So, I want to wish them well and I want to encourage them not to look at their gender as a disability or as a basis upon which they should be invited to the high table.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I also wish to welcome the young ladies who are the future presidents and leaders of this country. In my capacity as the chairperson of the Kenya Women Senators Association, the next time, I will expect one of them to be standing here in their capacity. I know I am a Nominated Senator but as my colleague as just said, this is the time when women are being elected into key positions in this world and I believe through your help and support and all your relatives who are in Nairobi, you will also assist me to be elected as the first woman Member of Parliament for Langata Constituency in 2017.
I can see you are using that as a campaign platform.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, let me also join my colleagues in welcoming the students and the teachers. I would like to remind them that the two schools, this one in Limuru and the other one that has come from Meru County, that there is Mt. Kenya between them. If you face Mt. Kenya, bad manners disappear. I am saying this because students are “erupting” to some activities that do not make sense. Yesterday, a few burned down their dormitories. Why are they burning their dormitories? Only the other day, my school burned a dormitory only to discover that they only burned their clothes. So, the loser is not the school but the students. I thank the girls and tell them that any time they experience a problem like that, look at Mt. Kenya and everything shall be well.
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I thought the good Professor from West Pokot County would have just used his credentials to talk to the young girls. The history that we have about facing Mt. Kenya --- The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Why do you call them young girls? They are either young ladies or girls.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, young Kenyans. Most obliged. The history that we have about facing Mt. Kenya is not all that good. Would the good Professor tell us what he means by that?
Order, Senators! Sen. Karaba, you have spoken as the Chairperson. Have you not?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is a point of order on Sen. Okong’o’s sentiments.
No. I rule out that point of order. Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo has given his opinion. Good or bad, that is his opinion. The young ladies will take it in that stride. They are with their teachers and they should be able to distinguish what is good or bad. Like I joined in welcoming them, my request to them is that they consider seriously– like I said last week – the preamble to the Constitution and also the section of national values and the heritage of this country. Next Order! Hon. Senators, as you know, there are some Committees going on right now and there are other issues that affect the quorum in the House. I will reorganize the Order Paper and defer OrdersNo.8, 9, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 and 18.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I understand after Order No.10 which has only 15 minutes to go, we will move to No.19.
Is that clear?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, yes. It is clear.
Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo, you have 11 minutes.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I thank my colleagues for contributing to this Bill for the last two sitting days. This is the County Governments (Amendment) Bill 2014, in which I had proposed that the offices of the sub-county, ward The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Should we put the question?
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, pursuant to Standing Order No.54 (3) I beg that you defer the putting of the question to a later date.
It is so ordered.
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that The National Hospital Insurance Fund (Amendment) Bill (Senate Bill No.9 of 2015) be now read a Second Time. This Bill touches on a critical issue of health in our country. It also touches on how Kenyans will pay for health services and the National Hospital Insurance Fund (NHIF). It is an amendment to The National Hospital Insurance Fund Act which is old. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, thank you for the opportunity to contribute to this wonderful and marvelous Bill. First, I congratulate Sen. Wangari who has thought very considerably to prepare this Bill and present it at the Senate. It is a very sensitive and humane Bill. In our country, the poverty level is still very high and medical expenses are extremely on the higher side. We have been trying to champion some facilities which, like for the assisted reproduction, are still very expensive. A full medical session for this, for example, would cost kshs500,000. Most Kenyans cannot afford this. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the National Hospital and Insurance Fund (NHIF) came in as a saviour. It has helped so many. Personally, I did not understand the importance of this Fund until recently when my baby sister was admitted because of breast cancer and the Bill was exorbitant. She was in hospital for about two months and we could not afford to pay. If we are complaining, then how about Wanjiku in
The NHIF came in handy after all the deductions and the payment that they effected on our behalf. We were then able to settle the Bill. I wish to confirm that they have become efficient and you only need to apply and abide by the rules in order to obtain the assistance. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, it is on that note that we wish to encourage many Kenyans to subscribe to this NHIF and to ensure that they remit their subscriptions. However, they should not be penalised exorbitantly when they fail. These are things that at times when people change their employment; they do not follow up because that is what the employer does. Personal contributors need to be told what to do. These are the things that the chiefs in the villages should disseminate and encourage Kenyans to embrace. We know that the health sector has been devolved but Kenyans are still suffering. We have the Vision 2030 and Kenya has subscribed to the Social Development Goals (SDGs). Not long ago, we were in New York and we saw a lady from the grassroots who sat at the table when the SDGs were being drafted. This was encouraging because we know that health is one of the issues that affect Kenyans and especially women. Many women have died because of pregnancy related complications. The complications arise because the health facilities may not be within their reach or they cannot afford the private hospitals and do not have the NHIF cover. Once this is done, they are able to protect their health accordingly. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, when a woman is expectant, the medical emergencies cannot be postponed and therefore one cannot think otherwise. When a patient cannot afford to pay for healthcare, it becomes very painful. We have seen many lives lost and some stay with injuries or complications because they cannot afford to pay for treatment. When a patient is told that he or she has a kidney problem, they worry much about how they will obtain the medical cover. Chemotherapy and such related medication are expensive. I am glad to tell Kenyans that NHIF can support and has The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, thank you for giving me a chance to contribute in support of this Bill. To me, it is an important Bill and it has been brought at the right time when counties are struggling to devolve medical facilities and equipment to the counties. This Bill should have been introduced immediately we attained Independence. If you visit the countryside, you will get the surprise of your lifetime. Many people die due to lack of medical care and ignorance. The National Hospital Insurance Fund (NHIF) should provide services at the village level to reach “Wanjiku”. This Bill is important to most Kenyans. Many Kenyans - when they get sick - they only pray to God to heal them. Some of them pray facing Mt. Kenya or wherever they believe their God resides. It is due to ignorance that they do not know what to do, and also lack of money. It is extremely expensive to get sick in the rural areas. Most times when they get sick, they eventually die because they cannot access medical care. For example, imagine somebody in the northern part of Kenya who requires specialized treatment in Nairobi at the Kenyatta National Hospital (KNH) or Nairobi Hospital. He has to be flown to save his life. How many choppers do we have to patrol some of those areas as they do reconnaissance tours to see what is happening in the villages? How are our roads? How fast can a patient be rushed to Nairobi Hospital during peak hours in this city? It is impossible to transport a patient to Nairobi Hospital or even KNH between 5.00 p.m. and 7.00 p.m. because of traffic jams. Our people are ignorant that even when they hear the siren, motorists will not give way to the ambulances. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, we have a lot to learn from our friends in other countries like South Korea, Japan, Britain or the United States of America (USA). For example, in London and other towns in the world, there are designated lanes for ambulances, the traffic police and public buses. That road is not used by any other motorist. We do not have such a road here. I remember that in the Ninth Parliament, I moved a Motion where I proposed for us to have a lane designated for use by ambulances, fire brigades and visiting dignitaries instead of holding traffic for one person to pass or pave way for ambulances. Not very many people know what an ambulance siren means. Therefore, you will find some people taking advantage to follow ambulances, others are blocking the road and others taking advantage of the road paved for ambulances. Some time the patient ends up dying before getting to the hospital. Ambulances are sometimes forced to use the opposite side of traffic. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, those are some of the problems that we must understand in order to know why we have to suffer in the medical field. It is also important to note that ours is not a welfare state like Britain and the USA. The state pays for services which are rendered by the Government. We are yet to get to that level here. The NHIF is one way towards making Kenya a welfare State in East Africa. We will be proud to be in that category. We should be able to take care of the elderly in our society. Part of our population is aging yet we do not have facilities that will give them free medical care. We do not provide enough medicine to our people. Some of them have to wonder whether to use money to feed their children or to go to hospital. They end up dying due to lack of medical care, medicine, hospitals and knowledge. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Senator, what is Kimbimbi?
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, it is a town in Kirinyaga County. It is the largest water borne disease hospital in Africa, south of the Sahara and north of the Limpopo. In this case we exclude Cairo and South Africa; for those who may not know what Limpopo and Sahara is. Those hospitals should be properly equipped.
Order, Senator. Your time is up. Do you support?
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, with those remarks, I beg to support.
Proceed, Sen. M. Kajwang.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this Bill. I thank and congratulate the Mover of the amendment Bill, Sen. Wangari, who is blazing the trail. She has been quite successful in getting her Bills considered. I will talk to her to find out what the secret is. The amendments that she has brought to this House are quite fundamental and significant. They touch the core of what a nation should provide to its citizens. I support this amendment Bill. I will suggest areas where we could amend and make the mother Act, the NHIF Act more effective. First, Sen. Wangari has proposed that someone from the Council of Governors (CoG) should sit on the NHIF Board. I have some reservations on this which I will explain. The NHIF Board is currently bloated. In the establishment of the Board, you have got A to L. You already have 12 members of this Board. You have people representing bodies like the Kenya National Farmers Union (KNFU). I am a farmer. I farm fish, sorghum and maize in my County of Homa Bay but I have never known about the KNFU and how I can be a member. I wonder who then it represents on the board of NHIF. Then you have a member representing NGOs involved in the provision of healthcare services who is nominated by the NGO Council. Then there is Kenya National Union of Teachers (KNUT) and Kenya Union of Post Primary Education Teachers (KUPPET). You will also argue that they also need representation. Very soon you will have the trade union for civil servants demanding that they should also be part of this. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
You are wrong when you say that. Mr. Kirgotty has been a civil servant all through and has never been in politics.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, you understand the terrain better than I do. He might not have been in elective politics but we understand the politics he plays behind the scene, but I will be guided by your clarification.
He was the Registrar of Motor Vehicles before becoming the Chief Executive Officer (CEO) of NHIF.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, did he ever attempt to vie for a political seat?
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I am guided and will not make that reference. However, the Chairperson of NHIF is a presidential appointee, and the trend in this country is that rejected politicians or retired civil servants are posted to chair some boards. When someone has retired from the Civil Service, what other incremental value is he going to bring into these boards? We have to look at the composition of parastatal boards. This Jubilee Government promised to undertake significant reforms in parastatals, which has not been delivered. Legislation in this House keeps coming up with a new parastatal and authority and we are always in a rush to fill them because that is the only way we can fulfill some electoral promises. We need to see to it that we let professionals run NHIF, not just in the board but also in the management. This is because I also have information that appointment to top managerial positions is usually skewed; based on ethnic or political affiliation. We must allow NHIF to be run as a professional body. It must also adopt technology. I am aware that the National Hospital Insurance Fund (NHIF) has many times attempted to modernize its operations but it is people in politics and Government who want to influence multi-million tenders and derail the efforts of state corporations from achieving the efficiencies that they want. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, as I conclude, the NHIF must also move beyond the employed because right now, they are milking the employed and they are not creative enough to broaden their net. The reason why the NHIF has got 90 per cent of the insured population is because it is its mandatory. If it was not mandatory, maybe it would not have those kinds of numbers. So, it needs to be more creative to attract more people. They need to create incentives for people to join and opt in. Finally, we must also ask ourselves this: There is the cash transfer programme that has been in this House several times where we send money to orphans, vulnerable groups, children and widows, but is that working? Is the solutions sending cash or is it creating certain social cushions so that when I fall sick and I am an orphan, I know that I The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, thank you for giving me this opportunity to also contribute to this Bill. Let me join my colleagues from the outset in congratulating Sen. Wangari for bringing up this very important and fairly straightforward Bill. This Bill aims at entrenching devolution right into the counties. As we know, health services have been devolved to the counties. Therefore, amending Section 4, which I fully support so that we get a member from the Council of Governors (CoG) sitting in the board, is a very acceptable and straightforward matter. However, I feel that time has come when even the NHIF should be fully devolved to the counties. Since we have already devolved health services, I do not see why we should now have a national umbrella body that manages insurance schemes. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, we know that right now, there are many insurance schemes in the world which benefit our people, just like the one Sen. M. Kajwang spoke about on micro insurance. These are the kind of schemes that we need, like the ones in the USA. When Sen. (Prof.) Anyang'-Nyong'o was the then Minister for Health Services, I remember he attempted to introduce an insurance scheme yet it was rubbished. He was made to look like the villain. Had he been given the opportunity then, that health service scheme that he intended to introduce would have really benefited our ordinary people right in the counties. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I also support the second amendment which intends to reduce the penalties which have been imposed by The National Hospital Insurance Fund Act. There is no need of making defaulters pay such a hefty penalty when this scheme is actually supposed to support the poor. You know that majority of members of this scheme are really in the bracket of what we call “the youth and young people.” Therefore, I welcome that amendment. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I can also see that there is another amendment for the recovery of compensation of damages which I also support. However, there is an elephant in this House. The elephant is that we are all the time debating on Bills which when we send to our sister House, the “Lower House” which is the National Assembly are never passed. So, I do not see why we should be wasting our time debating on Bills here in the House and yet we do not agitate through your Office to ensure that, indeed, the National Assembly passes them just as we pass theirs. We are on record in this House saying that when the National Assembly Bills come here, we do not waste our time but debate on them, just as we are honourable Senators, and pass them. Therefore, I feel that it behooves the National Assembly to pass our Bills. Right now, I believe over 39 Bills have gone there. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, with those few words, I beg to support.
I want to assure you that Members of the National Assembly are also doing something. This afternoon, they were debating the County Assembly Powers and Privileges Bill. Therefore, they are also doing their best. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I stand guided.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, let me join my colleagues in congratulating Sen. Martha Wangari. I thought she had a third name but I can only see two here. If she does not have a third one, I will call her Esther. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, indeed, if we continue putting all our efforts the way Sen. Wangari has done here and the previous Bills she has brought, we will really be on the right track and be able to secure and make devolution which is the pride of every Kenyan work. These are the type of leaders that we will propose in future. For example, if Nakuru County needs a Senator, Martha Wangari should be elected as the first woman Senator. If she chooses to be an MP for Gilgil or the neighbourhood, it will still be okay. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I would like you to recall the phrase that was pronounced in 1963 by our forefathers when Mzee Jomo Kenyatta stood and said that there are three enemies that must be eliminated immediately the Whiteman leaves. These were ignorance, disease and poverty. If you analyse it keenly, you will realise that our successive Governments have endeavoured to fight ignorance by introducing very many schools. We have not failed in that area and we are doing quite well. Another one that we are struggling and trying but not really managing is the issue of eliminating poverty where people suffer shortage of food. We would have eliminated it if we continued with the policies of 1960s, 1970s and early 1980s where agriculture was the prime choice in the Republic and everybody thought of it. Today, it is lost and no wonder we just depend on people from outside. We import food from other countries but do not know what minerals are used in the production. Maybe that is why we have very many strange diseases nowadays such as cancer and very many others that historically we used not to have in huge numbers. Lastly, one enemy of Kenyans and Africans that we were supposed to fight was disease. We have been defeated regarding that. Whether you are rich, in the middle income bracket or the poor who are the majority of Kenyans, disease has terrorized people seriously. That is why Sen. Wangari talked about some amendment in this prime Act in order to find a way of how people can benefit and also fight this enemy that has been becoming stronger each year. Even the rich also cry. You have heard of many cases of many Kenyans going to India. India was just as poor or, if not, worse off than us in 1972. Now, we are going there in order to get support. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, this amendment is key in the sense that it now focuses on the establishment of a board. I would join my brother Sen. M. Kajwang to say that 13 is a huge number and we need to reduce it to a number that makes sense, that is, five or seven. My county does not need to sit there or somebody from a region does not need to sit there if we put rules that we can have such kind of positions that we require especially these associations; we do not need them. There is nothing for them to protect. Even workers, they do not need their representative there because you go to be represented if you think there is a malpractice in that board for you to protect your interest. We need only one and the other one for the National Treasury for the guarantee of Funds. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I would urge Sen. Wangari to go further. Where are Kenyans found? They are found in the counties. They are found in 47 such units. Is there The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
(Sen.) Mositet): I now call upon the Mover and the sponsor of the Bill to reply.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I thank my colleagues, from the Seconder to the other Senators, who have contributed to this Bill. To Sen. M. Kajwang, there is no magic in getting your Bill signed. In fact, the Bill that I sponsored and was signed; the County Governments (Amendment) Act, was authored when the late Sen. Gerald Kajwang was in office. So, it tells you how far it goes. It has been two or three agonizing years to actually trace it from where it was. So, I share the frustration in terms of expediting our Bills which has also been cited by Sen. Ong’era. We hope that the same attention and seriousness that we give the National Assembly Bills will be given to ours so that at the end of the day, we can show our work to the electorate, who expect us to yield fruits by coming to this House. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Sen. Wangari, speak to the issues that were raised. It should not be like you are debating again.
Thank you Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. That is also an issue that we should explore. I agree with Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo and Sen. Kajwang on the composition of this Board. I agree that in the Third Reading, we should look into whether we need farmers associations, the Kenya National Union of Teacher (KNUT) and the Kenya Union of Post Primary Education Teachers (KUPPET) represented here. In terms of making it efficient, we can look at it during the Committee Stage. The other issue is one that is quite critical. It is not addressed in this amendment. When it comes to the issue of choices of hospitals, you realise that most outpatient services are not offered in big hospitals. You cannot access Nairobi Hospital or Kenyatta National Hospital. I think we can also look at that in the Committee Stage. I remember that it was raised during public participation that we need to look into how these hospitals are settled on. This is because if you pay your premium, you should have an array of choices. They limit these hospitals to some very small enterprises and lock out the Karen, Nairobi and Kenyatta National hospitals. It then becomes very hard to attract contributors to NHIF. If you have that card and you have paid your premiums, then you should be accorded services in any hospitals of your choice. With those remarks, I beg to move and thank all the Senators who have contributed. Pursuant to Standing Order 54(3), I request that you defer the putting of the question to another day.
Okay, I defer putting of the question to next week.
Since the Mover of OrderNo.20 and 21 is not there, let us defer both Orders.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the County Governments (Amendment) Bill (Senate Bill No.4 of 2016) be now read a Second Time. The principal object of the Bill is to amend the Third Schedule of the County Governments Act No.17 of 2012 so as to change the physical location of the headquarters of Kirinyaga County from Kerugoya Urban Area to Kutus Urban Area. This comes as a result of misunderstanding of placement of names where ‘urban area,’ according to many people, was misunderstood to mean Kerugoya Town. The main object of the Bill is that Kerugoya Urban Area extends up to Kutus. At one time I represented a constituency called Kerugoya-Kutus and there was a municipality called Kerugoya-Kutus. When I was representing both the towns of Kerugoya and Kutus as a municipality and also as a constituency, the two names were used synonymously. In this amendment Bill, Kutus will appear before Kerugoya. Kutus Urban Area will now be the headquarters of Kirinyaga County. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, Kutus is in a central position. It is along the main road between Sagana and Embu. It is the northern town of Mwea sub-county; Mwea being the largest sub-county in Kirinyaga with the highest population. The elders of Kirinyaga met and agreed that the location of the headquarters be moved from Kerugoya to Kutus. A lot of consultations have been done and meetings held, and 90 per cent of the population has agreed that Kutus be named the headquarters. Naming Kutus as the headquarters of Kirinyaga will not change much because, as I had indicated, it was earlier referred to as Kerugoya-Kutus. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, Kutus will be the most convenient location, noting that it is not only a central place, but also situated along the busy road from Sagana, all the way to Kagio, passing through Kutus and Embu. It is also linked to Kerugoya by a C73 road, which is all weather. The road passes via Kerugoya and then leads to Karatina and Nyeri. The same road also connects other parts of northern Kenya. Therefore, in terms of communication, Kutus is centrally located. In terms of other social infrastructure, Kutus houses two universities; Kirinyaga Technical University, which used to be called Kirinyaga Technical Institute (KTI), and AHITI Ndomba, a constituent college of the University of Nairobi. Recently, it has attracted a population of 20,000 people as a result of the two universities. In this case, we require a centre which will be used not only as a catchment area, but a centre to provide services to both students and the population which will be attracted by the two important institutions. It is important to note that a number of commercial centers have also come up around Kutus. There are quite a number of banks, for example, the Family Bank, Fortune Bank, Cooperative Bank, Equity Bank and quite a number of other micro-finance The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.
Since he has already moved, you cannot interrupt him. Who will second?
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I ask Sen. M. Kajwang to second.
Sen. M. Kajwang if your intervention was on seconding you now have the chance. However, I want to clarify that flatness cannot qualify an urban centre to be the headquarters. When it rains you should expect a lot of water to stagnate. You can quote all other characteristics, but flatness of the area may not qualify.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the point of order that I wanted to raise was not regarding the Mover. I want to seek your guidance on this specific matter before I proceed to second. Section 6A of the County Governments Act talks about the location of county governments. It states:- “A county assembly may by a resolution supported by at least two-thirds of the Members of the County Assembly (MCAs) and with the approval of Parliament, transfer the headquarters of the county government from the physical locations specified in the Third Schedule to such other physical location as it may consider appropriate.” Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I am seeking the guidance from you because when you read Clause 6 (a) (2); could it be that the county assembly has already with a two- third support approved the change of headquarters such that what we are doing now is the approval of Parliament that is required by that Act? The county assembly begins but Parliament must approve.
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Sen. M. Kajwang, you are correct when you say that for the Act to have been amended, it required a two-third. However, this was a Bill that had passed through the Senate and this House can still amend it. There is nothing wrong with the Senator coming up with the Bill and the amendments. Further, he said this was in consultation with all the stakeholders of the county. Therefore, it is not just his views but he is representing the views of his county. It is therefore, correct. You may now second.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I appreciate the Ruling and I am still troubled in my mind but because the Speaker is always right, I will go by your direction. Ordinarily, I would have assumed that there will be evidence of the resolution of the county assembly. The fact that this matter has reached this level, I assume that the resolution was furnished and that the matter would not have come for Second Reading.
Sen. M. Kajwang, I said that this is a Bill which came through this House and we passed it. So, we are amending some provision that we had passed. Are we together?
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, there is no doubt that the Senate has the power to amend any Bill that it has passed but the matter in contention is not Clause 6A. As long as we are not amending Clause 6A, then for us to amend the Third Schedule, we must go by the provisions of Clause 6A which requires a resolution of the county assembly by two-thirds majority.
The Senate has the powers to make the amendments or come up with the Bills. Therefore, even if there were no resolutions from the County Assembly in Kerugoya, at least, somebody came up with a Bill in the Senate, in consultation with the county itself. There will not be any problem. We now have one. Therefore, we have to continue.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, backed your ruling, it is my pleasure to second this Bill. In as much as I am not very familiar with the many factors that have been brought up by the Senator, I am convinced that the Senator, being the one who defends and protects the interests of devolution and represents the county where the Third Schedule of the County Governments Act has designated its headquarter as Kerugoya urban area. Therefore, there must be significant and fundamental reasons to change the physical location of the headquarters of Kirinyaga County to Kutus urban area. As I second this particular Bill, I would like to draw our attention to some of the issues that have been going on particularly following the presidential assent to the County Governments Amendment Bill, which introduced the Third Schedule and solidified the physical locations of county headquarters in law. There are a number of counties where The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo, what is your point of order?
On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. Could the distinguished Senator for Homa Bay County describe and explain to us what he means by ‘voting machines’? In the Senate, we only have Hon. Senators, unless you have come across that terminology anywhere, can he describe what he means.
Sen. M. Kajwang, what did you mean by the word “voting machines?” Is it the ones which hon. Senators use to vote? Did you refer to somebody?
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I am obliged to treat all hon. Senators of this House with respect and not impute any improper motives on them. I would withdraw that and say, the operators of the voting machines have left rather than the voting machines.
Do we have operators?
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, that is accurate. One of the activities we undertake in this House is to vote. We do that by manipulating the voting machines. Invariably there are those colleagues of ours who love that particular exercise of pressing the voting machine more than they love debating. So, those are the operators of the voting machines that I am talking about. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I have to wrap up. This is a straightforward matter. I reiterate my conviction that Sen. Karaba has the best interest of the people of Kirinyaga County. I hope that he has not bought land where he wants this headquarters to move to The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this Bill. I rise to support this Bill. It is within the mandate of our role as the Senate, of representation and law making, on issues that concern the county under Article 96 of the Constitution. I also support it because I have a lot of respect for the Mover of this Bill, the distinguished Senator for Kirinyaga County, Sen. Karaba. The Senator has exercised due diligence on this Bill. He has ensured that there is proper participation and that the people are moving with him as they make the request of changing the headquarters of Kirinyaga County from Kerugoya Urban to Kutus Urban Area. I recall that Members of the National Assembly had attempted to make a different order. I stand to be corrected. This matter went to court. Since we do not have any injunction restraining the Senate from participating in this matter, I do not see any reason why we should not support this Bill. As we look at this Bill and the approval of the amendment, I hope that due diligence has been done, there has been proper publication and that this is the wish of the people.I also reiterate what Sen. M. Kajwang said and hope this has not been done on political gerrymandering, so that it benefits a few. I hope that it is a people driven movement which has the support of the county government. Finally, I urge our distinguished Senator to ensure that as he makes these amendments, he can also look at other amendments in the County Government Act, so that we have clear criteria as to how to move a Bill, to ensure there is a headquarter so that it is never at any time in contention and Section 6 complies exactly with the Third Schedule. I beg to support.
Let us have Sen. (Prof. Lonyangapuo).
): Mr. Temporary Speaker Sir, I thank Sen. Karaba for bringing this amendment Bill. However, the County Government Act, Section 6(a) which talks about location of county governments says:- “Each of the county governments shall be located in the respective physical locations set out in the Third Schedule”. Sen. Karaba, the Senator for Kirinyaga County, seeks to amend the physical location for Kirinyaga County as stated in No. 20 in the list where he seeks to change from Kerugoya Urban area to take it to Kutus Urban area. The procedure of change is found in the County Governments Act, Section 6(a) which says:- “A county assembly may, by a resolution supported by at least two thirds of the members of the county assembly and with the approval of Parliament, transfer the The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo, the Senator for Kirinyaga moved the Bill properly in the House and he was seconded properly. Are you doubting? You can only oppose because the Bill has already been moved and seconded. It should be debated now. You can only debate on it and say you do not support.
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, you know this is a very peculiar Bill. It is not an ordinary Bill because it strictly touches on the life of one county. The only way we can generously contribute is not to say “yes” or “no” but to know whether the procedure was followed. If it was followed, all of us will approval it, in fact, in the shortest time possible. If the right procedure was not followed, then we will do better by assisting our colleague to bring it here procedurally. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I beg to oppose.
(Sen.) Mositet): I am going to allow the Mover of the Bill to reply and since Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo insisted on something the seconder had questioned, we will give out the ruling of that before the Division of the same Bill is done in this House. So, before Division on the Bill, we will give out the ruling concerning what was raised by the seconder and by Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo. Continue to reply on your Bill.
Thank you very much Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir and to my colleagues as well for contributing positively to the amendment Bill which is in the House today. As I thank my colleague Senators, it is important to note that this matter had been discussed earlier even before devolution and people agreed that we are going to have Kutus as the headquarters of the county. They agreed even before the 2013 election was done. The earlier headquarters which is Kerugoya; historically, people would have the attachment by saying they would like to have that remain the way it is. When the matter was put to the vote, the vote that carried the day was that Kutus be the headquarters. By that time, even the governors and the Senators did not know they were going to be elected because it was before the devolution government of 2013. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, as I stand here, I represent the will of Kirinyaga people that Kutus be the headquarters. The stakeholders were involved and quite a number of people were involved including the then Members of Parliament. So, I am happy that even today, Senators have found it fit to go by what I am advising because I am from there and I know what it means if this is contrary to the feeling and opinion of the majority of the people. Since I know what the majority of the people of Kirinyaga County would like me to say, I am saying it because I have no fear. There is no The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate
Are you cursing the Senate?
Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, no. I am trying to thank the Senate for allowing me to move this amendment. Pursuant to Standing Order No.54(3), I request that you defer putting of the question to another day.
Okay, I defer. As I said, the Division will not be done without the ruling from the Chair on the subject matter or the issues which were raised by the Seconder and Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo.
Hon. Senators, it is time to interrupt the business of the House. The Senate stands adjourned to Thursday, 21st July, 2016 at 2.30 p.m. The Senate rose at 6.25 p.m. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate